Liav said:It doesn't have to. How often does this actually happen? This entire thread is about the biggest non-issue I've ever seen.
If you're not out to impress anyone, that has nothing to do with inspect. A bad player with good gear will get criticized too, and there isn't anything you can do about that.
Is that why WoW instituted iLevel to all gear? Why you can get an iLevel rating for a player? Why groups will boot players, even using a group finder that puts people together automatically, if the player doesnt meet a certain iLevel? Why guilds institute rules stating that you must have a particular iLevel?
This is not unique to WoW, and rooted in the very notion that players judge others based first on the gear they have, and will commonly exclude those not yet sufficiently geared in their opinion.
Feyshtey said:Is that why WoW instituted iLevel to all gear? Why you can get an iLevel rating for a player? Why groups will boot players, even using a group finder that puts people together automatically, if the player doesnt meet a certain iLevel? Why guilds institute rules stating that you must have a particular iLevel?
This is not unique to WoW, and rooted in the very notion that players judge others based first on the gear they have, and will commonly exclude those not yet sufficiently geared in their opinion.
It's pretty simple. WoW utilizes a simplified itemization model for numerous reasons. When your itemization is perfectly linear, then gearscore is a perfectly valid way to approach judging how well geared a player is. In Vanguard, we had APW, Pantheon Tier 1, Pantheon Tier 2, Pantheon Tier 3, etc. It's pretty much the same thing, just another layer of abstraction away from pure gearscore.
So let's take RIFT for example. The stat in RIFT was called "Hit" if I'm not mistaken. So a new bit of content comes out, and the first boss of the dungeon requires a Hit of 400 to be able to do damage to it. I'm not going to invite a person with 270 Hit because they are mathematically incapable of contributing anything of value to the raid.
Other games do not use itemization models as rigid as that. Pantheon won't, for instance. However, if you're doing a PUG raid in a zone that requires Cold Acclimation IV (example) and they don't have that, they will probably be worthless.
People can complain about it all they want, but the fact remains that Pantheon will be a gear driven game. Even EQ was a gear driven game where certain resistances (MR mostly) were needed to be able to contribute in certain content.
Lastly, and most importantly, judging people based on their gear is not necessarily a negative. If you are too ill equipped for the content, you don't belong there. Period. It's no better or no worse than being too incompetent at the game to perform your role. If you're a DPS class that gets out DPS'd by healers, you don't belong there. Period.
CanadinaXegony said:I don't believe in dumping people from the group unless its a behaviour problem. The habit of kicking people seems to come from Wow. Sorry I don't operate that way.
You're just incorrect, and I don't mean it in a mean-spirited way. WoW doesn't have anything to do with this thread. You either make the content so easy that there is effectively no meaningful gear progression, or people have to be excluded. There will always be an in-game activity you can't participate in.
A level 30 won't be involved with level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
A level 50 with bad gear won't be involved with demanding level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
Liav said:CanadinaXegony said:I don't believe in dumping people from the group unless its a behaviour problem. The habit of kicking people seems to come from Wow. Sorry I don't operate that way.
You're just incorrect, and I don't mean it in a mean-spirited way. WoW doesn't have anything to do with this thread. You either make the content so easy that there is effectively no meaningful gear progression, or people have to be excluded. There will always be an in-game activity you can't participate in.
A level 30 won't be involved with level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
A level 50 with bad gear won't be involved with demanding level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
Where in any of my statements did I indicate that a level 30 should be involved with level 50 content...where in any of my statements did I indicate that "bad gear" would be involved with level whatever content? I watched the "kickitus" happening in Rift. I thought it was rather despicable. Treat others as you would have them treat you ..is a rule I follow. And stating that I am incorrect..doesn't make me incorrect. Wow mindthink does have something to do with this thread....been there done that don't want to see it happen in Pantheon. Bringing the conversation down to personal remarks...is pretty much off topic. There is no either or..."content so easy" "this happens" "effectively no meaningful gear progression" = assumption that all things will go wrong unless its done your or "someone's" way. Leave those decisions to the Devs..they're pretty intelligent. And ingame- activity shouldn't be treated as an elite thing that noone else can participate in because "you're just not good enough" in "someone's estimation.
CanadinaXegony said:Where in any of my statements did I indicate that a level 30 should be involved with level 50 content...where in any of my statements did I indicate that "bad gear" would be involved with level whatever content? I watched the "kickitus" happening in Rift. I thought it was rather despicable. Treat others as you would have them treat you ..is a rule I follow. And stating that I am incorrect..doesn't make me incorrect. Wow mindthink does have something to do with this thread....been there done that don't want to see it happen in Pantheon. Bringing the conversation down to personal remarks...is pretty much off topic. There is no either or..."content so easy" "this happens" "effectively no meaningful gear progression" = assumption that all things will go wrong unless its done your or "someone's" way. Leave those decisions to the Devs..they're pretty intelligent. And ingame- activity shouldn't be treated as an elite thing that noone else can participate in because "you're just not good enough" in "someone's estimation.
It was an example used to illustrate my point. Was it that ambiguous?
You've also taken personal offense to a non-personal remark which means that you're unable to separate your ideas from your personal identity.
Maybe it'd be best if we just didn't respond to eachother.
Liav said:CanadinaXegony said:Where in any of my statements did I indicate that a level 30 should be involved with level 50 content...where in any of my statements did I indicate that "bad gear" would be involved with level whatever content? I watched the "kickitus" happening in Rift. I thought it was rather despicable. Treat others as you would have them treat you ..is a rule I follow. And stating that I am incorrect..doesn't make me incorrect. Wow mindthink does have something to do with this thread....been there done that don't want to see it happen in Pantheon. Bringing the conversation down to personal remarks...is pretty much off topic. There is no either or..."content so easy" "this happens" "effectively no meaningful gear progression" = assumption that all things will go wrong unless its done your or "someone's" way. Leave those decisions to the Devs..they're pretty intelligent. And ingame- activity shouldn't be treated as an elite thing that noone else can participate in because "you're just not good enough" in "someone's estimation.
It was an example used to illustrate my point. Was it that ambiguous?
You've also taken personal offense to a non-personal remark which means that you're unable to separate your ideas from your personal identity.
Maybe it'd be best if we just didn't respond to eachother.
So next time I respond to something you've stated..the correct answer should always be "of course I'm incorrect" of course I don't know what I am talking about..of course you are always right? That could get a bit boring after awhile...hang on I'll become your clone and always agree with your statements. :P
Liav said:A level 50 with bad gear won't be involved with demanding level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
I honestly hope that anybody that has spent the time learning and playing well to level 50 would have gear that is at least servicable for 90 percent of level 50 content.
If they inspect my lvl 50 gear I do not care, but if it becomes culturally rude to do so on the server I am playing on I will ask first before inspecting somebody else.
A toggle would be nice so people that may be sensitive to such things can turn off the ability for somebody to inspect them.
Dude, are we still talking about this ?
Liav, I still want to take you adventuring with a roleplaying group , lol . You will probably be lvl 50 in 3 weeks anyways :)
Skycaster said:I honestly hope that anybody that has spent the time learning and playing well to level 50 would have gear that is at least servicable for 90 percent of level 50 content.
I disagree. A fresh, experienced level 50 should still have a pretty solid climb before they can touch the absolute top end content, in my opinion.
Whether it's collecting acclimation gear to survive the climates, having resists, etc. is kind of irrelevant to me. I just don't believe that a fresh level 50 should stand a reasonable shot at, to use EQ as an example, killing Nagafen. You should get melted by AEs or do next to no damage.
To have it otherwise basically means that the only prerequisite to endgame content is just to level, which just isn't nearly enough imo.
Skycaster said:If they inspect my lvl 50 gear I do not care, but if it becomes culturally rude to do so on the server I am playing on I will ask first before inspecting somebody else.
A toggle would be nice so people that may be sensitive to such things can turn off the ability for somebody to inspect them.
I doubt it'll become culturally rude, and I hope it doesn't. That aspect of EQ was always patently ridiculous to me.
Skycaster said:Dude, are we still talking about this ?
Unfortunately so.
Skycaster said:Liav, I still want to take you adventuring with a roleplaying group , lol . You will probably be lvl 50 in 3 weeks anyways :)
Not my cup of tea. :p
Liav said:Skycaster said:I honestly hope that anybody that has spent the time learning and playing well to level 50 would have gear that is at least servicable for 90 percent of level 50 content.
I disagree. A fresh, experienced level 50 should still have a pretty solid climb before they can touch the absolute top end content, in my opinion.
Whether it's collecting acclimation gear to survive the climates, having resists, etc. is kind of irrelevant to me. I just don't believe that a fresh level 50 should stand a reasonable shot at, to use EQ as an example, killing Nagafen. You should get melted by AEs or do next to no damage.
You make a good point; I am hoping that absolute top end content will only be about 10 percent of the content and experiencing the trip from beginning to top level will be the main prize of the game. More of a grouping experience over a raiding experience. I assure you I will be very happy either way.
I am afraid I have gone way off topic and hope the K man does not come and Inspect me.
Liav said:CanadinaXegony said:I don't believe in dumping people from the group unless its a behaviour problem. The habit of kicking people seems to come from Wow. Sorry I don't operate that way.
You're just incorrect, and I don't mean it in a mean-spirited way. WoW doesn't have anything to do with this thread. You either make the content so easy that there is effectively no meaningful gear progression, or people have to be excluded. There will always be an in-game activity you can't participate in.
A level 30 won't be involved with level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
A level 50 with bad gear won't be involved with demanding level 50 content, and they shouldn't be.
There's a grain of truth in what you're saying. There are people (particularly if Pantheon is going to have a heavy reliance on acclimation) at which an undergeared player simply cannot be effective for a particular encounter or area. However, this notion has extended to multiple games beyond just WoW to include a perception that if you're not geared enough, then the farming cant be as efficient, and therefore the person is excluded. It's not just that they cant survive, or cant contribute. It's that they cant help mow thru content at a rate at which there is little to no challenge. THAT is the issue that I've experienced, both being the person told I'm not geared enough and being in a group that wants to boot a player.
The irony is that if a person is never granted the oppurtunity to conquer challenges because they cant farm gear (or tokens or faction or wahtever) quickly enough, they they are excluded from ever getting the gear that makes them more effective for deeper content. It's a vicious cycle.
@Feyshtey
I understand. There will always be baseless exclusion for arbitrary reasons. I guess the point of my post is to clearly explain that there are legitimate, practical reasons for players to be excluded from content, and designing your content so that no one is excluded inherently implies poop content with zero challenge.
It sucks, but it's more of a player mentality issue than anything to do with inspect or the mechanics of the game. I'm more than happy to bring players with awful gear along to do things as long as the mechanics of the game don't mathematically exclude them from meaningful contribution.
TL;DR: People will be cliquey assholes regardless, and it's kind of a separate issue than the topic of the thread. I agree with you.
CanadinaXegony said:I don't believe in dumping people from the group unless its a behaviour problem. The habit of kicking people seems to come from Wow. Sorry I don't operate that way.
I'm quoting this to try and help because you are misunderstanding Liav I believe.
You say you don't believe in dumping people from the group unless its a behaviour problem. But what Liav is trying to explain to you, is that in certain games such as WoW AND Rift (as you have sited experiencing the 'kickitus' in RIft), is that certain mobs/zones/bosses/content can't be fought or beat unless you have a particular gearscore (WoW's iLevel) or a particular amount of 'hit' in Rift.
So just using Rift as an example, there was plenty of bosses and content where if you didn't have enough HIT you couldn't land a blow on them and resulting in you in doing no damage to them, obviously. So no amount of skill is going to change this and this is what Liav is saying. If someone doesn't have enough HIT in Rift they just aren't going to be able to engage certain content and letting them know this cannot be considered rude. It's just the way it is.
In WoW some content literally required a particular item level for you to engage it. I remember around Lich King I believe it was 540. You had to have 540 to do certain content and if you didn't have it you just couldn't do that zone or boss or whatever.
So I hope you can understand that if you aren't going to kick somebody just because of their gear then in games such as WoW and Rift then you may be grouping up with someone who just won't be able to engage the content and therefore won't be able to assist you in defeating said content.
HemlockReaper said:Inspection should be by permission only. The gear someone has is their business period, and if you really want to know what it is you should have to interact with them by asking. I don't know why so many feel their entitled to know what someone else has achieved.
I just can't understand how someone's privacy is damage by being inspected.
First of all, they already said no to appearance gear. So, the gear you are wearing will have its stats. If everyone can see you are wearing the Hat of Specialness, why should they not be able to see the stats of said Hat of Specialness?
Second, if you are wearing fancy shoes in public and someone sneaks a glance at them, are you going to be offended? seriously?
If I walk down the street in a shirt with a bizarre style or saying on it, should I be offended that someone tried to look at it or read it? What's the point of wearing said outfit if I didn't want anyone to check it out?
If you are walking down the street and someone checks you out, and you do not know it occurred, are you still offended?
If said offender then makes a negative comment about your style, that is what is offensive, not the looking in the first place.
Beefcake said:I just can't understand how someone's privacy is damage by being inspected.
"Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away,
a very easily offended person was insulted.
The action of having their character right clicked
incited such a rage that a new tradition was born.
Players now must feel insulted every time they are
right clicked without explicit permission. As EQ did it,
it is therefore correct, and the tradition must continue in Pantheon."
Liav said:@Portalgun
Your post is a criticism of gearscore, not inspecting.
You also misunderstand gearscore. In some more modern games, you literally can not contribute to a raid without a certain quality of gear. The game will often prevent you from being able to hit bosses if you lack a certain quantity of a stat (in RIFT, it was +Hit or something, iirc).
Rift was HIT. You had to have a certain amount of HIT to actually land a blow on the mob. And I agree, if somebody doesn't have the gearscore or HIT in games where it is necessary to have to engage a mob then there really is no reason for them to be in the group. It has nothing to do with being rude, and it has nothing to do with their character/skill/etc, they simply cannot engage certain content.
BUT, I will say this. It did lead some people believing certain content required a particular (at least in WoW) iLevel when it really didn't. I know some content actually did require an iLevel of 540 at one point in WoW. I'm a good player and I usually befriend good players and group up with them often. I remember one day me and my friends needed one more player for a dungeon that we've done before plenty of times and the random we picked up inspected us and said we couldn't do this same dungeon because it required a 540. Our scores were prolly somewhere around 400+, maybe just under 500. We told him we'd be fine we've done the run before. We rolled the dungeon EASILY and the guy was just baffled, amazed, I don't know what he was but he really really didn't believe we could do the dungeon let alone as easily as we did.
I hope PRF never utilizes something like gearscore. Gear/stat checks such as HIT and particular STATS like a tank's AC or block so that they can defend themself against a certain mob or possibly even fighting a fire god and requiring a particular amount of fire resistance to withstand their flames I'm cool with, I welcome it. But content gated behind an overall generic gearscore where your helmet is worth 20 points and your chest piece score is 40 and then it totals all those up...no thank you. It just doesn't make sense.
NoobieDoo said:Liav said:@Portalgun
Your post is a criticism of gearscore, not inspecting.
You also misunderstand gearscore. In some more modern games, you literally can not contribute to a raid without a certain quality of gear. The game will often prevent you from being able to hit bosses if you lack a certain quantity of a stat (in RIFT, it was +Hit or something, iirc).
BUT, I will say this. It did lead some people believing certain content required a particular (at least in WoW) iLevel when it really didn't. I know some content actually did require an iLevel of 540 at one point in WoW. I'm a good player and I usually befriend good players and group up with them often. I remember one day me and my friends needed one more player for a dungeon that we've done before plenty of times and the random we picked up inspected us and said we couldn't do this same dungeon because it required a 540. Our scores were prolly somewhere around 400+, maybe just under 500. We told him we'd be fine we've done the run before. We rolled the dungeon EASILY and the guy was just baffled, amazed, I don't know what he was but he really really didn't believe we could do the dungeon let alone as easily as we did.
The devs cannot fix player ignorance.
I think that those who are genuinely offended can solve the problem by putting their armor back in their bags.
Seriously...what a made-up offense.
The role-playing servers are over there, hun.
As to kicking members based on gear...
Personally, if I were told my sub-par gear was going to be a detriment to a raid, I would bow out.
To not do so, thereby lowering the risk of success for everyone else...now THAT would be rude.
Beefcake said:HemlockReaper said:Inspection should be by permission only. The gear someone has is their business period, and if you really want to know what it is you should have to interact with them by asking. I don't know why so many feel their entitled to know what someone else has achieved.
I just can't understand how someone's privacy is damage by being inspected.
First of all, they already said no to appearance gear. So, the gear you are wearing will have its stats. If everyone can see you are wearing the Hat of Specialness, why should they not be able to see the stats of said Hat of Specialness?
Second, if you are wearing fancy shoes in public and someone sneaks a glance at them, are you going to be offended? seriously?
If I walk down the street in a shirt with a bizarre style or saying on it, should I be offended that someone tried to look at it or read it? What's the point of wearing said outfit if I didn't want anyone to check it out?
If you are walking down the street and someone checks you out, and you do not know it occurred, are you still offended?
If said offender then makes a negative comment about your style, that is what is offensive, not the looking in the first place.
You dont understand because you only look at it from your point of view....
On the RP servers it was a general consensus that to inspect someone without permission was rude, no one really got offeneded (at least that I know of, I never did). It was looked upon almost as if someone was trying to sneak a peak at your underware...No one expects you to really care, but at least try and see it from a RP point of view. Is it not of great importance? of course, but its just simple respect for someone elses style of Playing. Put a damn toggle in the game and be done with it, that way if you dont care, great! But if you do its an options. I hope the Devs have enought respect for ALL different types of players that they include something for them all....Throw in raids for raiders, give the soloers some content, add things in that help in RP. Thats the whole crux of the point of this post, just simple respect for others style of playing
Edit: also with a no instpect option I, persoannly, would hope that it would help stimulate conversation. Now instead of just inspecting a player to see the item and or stat you have to actaully TALK to them, to ask what an item does or where they got it
Liav said:Beefcake said:I just can't understand how someone's privacy is damage by being inspected.
"Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away,
a very easily offended person was insulted.
The action of having their character right clicked
incited such a rage that a new tradition was born.
Players now must feel insulted every time they are
right clicked without explicit permission. As EQ did it,
it is therefore correct, and the tradition must continue in Pantheon."
And then along came the ones who thought their style of gaming was the only one that mattered
They didnt agree so all the others were just whiney babies.
They felt such a burning need to be right that on a forum thread that they themselves have stated was "silly"
they just had to post and repost and continue to post on and ridicule anyone who disagreed with them
If you're RPing on an RP server and someone inspects you without permission, wouldn't you just react to that offense in character? If I'm waiting on line in a store and a random person behind me decides to reach into my shirt and pull out the tag to see what I'm wearing, there's no forcefield or law of nature to prevent that from happening. Sure, that person may face social and/or legal consequences, but that's afterward. I could also be hyper-vigilant and extra careful about letting people get close enough to have a chance to do that, I suppose, but that's up to me as an individual.
Beefcake said:HemlockReaper said:Inspection should be by permission only. The gear someone has is their business period, and if you really want to know what it is you should have to interact with them by asking. I don't know why so many feel their entitled to know what someone else has achieved.
I just can't understand how someone's privacy is damage by being inspected.
First of all, they already said no to appearance gear. So, the gear you are wearing will have its stats. If everyone can see you are wearing the Hat of Specialness, why should they not be able to see the stats of said Hat of Specialness?
Second, if you are wearing fancy shoes in public and someone sneaks a glance at them, are you going to be offended? seriously?
If I walk down the street in a shirt with a bizarre style or saying on it, should I be offended that someone tried to look at it or read it? What's the point of wearing said outfit if I didn't want anyone to check it out?
If you are walking down the street and someone checks you out, and you do not know it occurred, are you still offended?
If said offender then makes a negative comment about your style, that is what is offensive, not the looking in the first place.
First,I never said I was offended by someone peeking at my stats, I said it was none of their business without my permission. The no appearance gear is great, you now know what I’m wearing just by the look or it, so go look up the stats on a website or take the time to ask me if you can look.
Second, your real world example doesn't apply,In game inspecting is more like flipping the tag over on a shirt to find out who the maker is, Glancing at a shirt in passing isn't the same thing as inspecting, if you went up to some chick and started visually inspecting her, I doubt it would go well, even just using your eyes.
Third, no one is entitled to know the stats on another's gear. I get that you may be curious about someones gear, So ask, if they want to share they will, if not oh well.
Forth, It should not be made easy to judge someone by their “Gear Score”, and thus exclude them from groups. Pantheon may not even include such a feature, but its just a matter of time before that attitude permeates the game, by using the inspection tool to eliminate “undesirables”. Stats don’t make the player, and we should not encourage that ideology.
I think there is a pretty simple compromise here. Allow players the option to toggle whether or not they can be inspected. If a raid leader makes it a requirement that they are able to inspect a player to make sure they won't hold back the raid, the player can toggle that option temporarily. It's really that simple. Everybody wins when you allow it to be toggled, and it shouldn't be that hard to implement. By allowing the toggle you don't alienate either side of the spectrum here. Everybody wins ... right?