Gadgets said:We did discuss this back in November of 2015 and my stance remains the same.
"I'm a fan of hell levels, myself. I actually think that there should be 'milestone' levels that require an in depth, class related quest in order to wear your next set of big boy pants :D"
I could very much get on board with this. Having to stop from leveling to get proper 'training' from a class leader rather than just having to suffer through a hell level would be much preferred to me. Keeps the immersion without adding in just the need to grind more. Gives a purpose other than just killing mobs.
fazool said:So, hear me out......
Everyone hated Hell Levels....every five or ten levels, there was a level where XP was gained at some painfully fractional rate. But here is what it did for us:
I loved hell levels and it ment something when you got it. I hope we see something like this, either in progression of raids or progression of levels. I hope we have some challenges, and not just easy wow based gaming.
But thats me, i really enjoyed EQ to level 50, and so did many others.
Self-imposed level caps.
I'm sitting here reading these comments when the idea hit s me ... what if the game were tiered: divided into 5-10 "tiers" that you voluntarily leave when you wanted to level up your character. Now, these tiers would all have special encounters, raids, quests, and other content - but all tailored for the specific level range. You could choose to remain at a lower level as long as you wanted, accumulate your raid gear and finish level appropriate quests ... and when you were ready to continue leveling, you completed a quest, saw your trainer, or whatever and went to the next tier. The thing is, when you change tiers, the previous tier content is no longer available (to prevent farming of lower-level content).
Perhaps loot from the lower level content is needed at the higher level ... would keep the lower levels relevant, and perhaps keep players there to feed the higher tiers materials, etc ... You'd actually need to have lower level characters farming their end-game content to provide materials to the other tiers.
fazool said:Look, somehow EQ did a whole bunch of things "right", which is one of the reasons we are here today - trying to recapture the feel that gave us. And, it wasn't until those things were eroded away that we realized they were great things. The thread entitled "The value of corpses" is a wonderful illustration of this.
So, hear me out......
Everyone hated Hell Levels....every five or ten levels, there was a level where XP was gained at some painfully fractional rate. But here is what it did for us:
Think of traffic on a busy raod. Everyone clipping along at different speeds, but then a red light pops up and jams up traffic. Everyone catches up with each other, then for a bit, everyone is "together" again.
That's not a great analogy but you get the idea: hell levels slow down the race-to-the-top and they help players bunch up so players are more "together" and can group and raid and play together.
They really did add something of value - as much as we hated them. They weren't call "Hell levels" for nothin'
So you want a coding error purposefully brought into Pantheon just to let people 'catch up'? But in reality they won't really catch up because those who can and will level faster will sprint through your hell level and gain even more ground in the later non-hell levels.
Why is everyone so concerned about this 'race to the top'? Give up on it already. No matter what you do, how many crap concepts, tactics or otherwise ridiculous speed bumps put into our way, a sizeable portion of the population will still outlevel everyone else. The only people 'slowed down' will be the average or casual player who already level quite slow. Stop trying to force me to level slower because of your biases.
I remember hell levels. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they were implemented. It promotes finding groups to grind through. You know when you get to one that you'll be able to find groups at a certain place - it promotes socializing. The downside is having to do them on alts :/
It seems like everyone here is massively misunderstanding what a hell level even is.
They don't fix anything, they don't do anything unique. It's just a broken level that takes double the amount of experience to gain as opposed to others. There is nothing, absolutely nothing gained by having them.
I always thought hell levels were a good idea as it firstly gave a sense of achievement after doing one and secondly slowed your pace to reaching max lev. Having a rite of passage after so many levels would be the same idea just with a twist and I am all for it.
Also I have I have never understood why we do not have an option for a hardcore server. Where the xp takes twice as long for instance. It must be easy as we have double experience weekends so why can’t it just be reversed. I’m not saying Pantheon needs it atm as we have not played it but couldn’t it be a possibility to add a server with a more severe death penalty and less experience if asked for?
Liav said:Why arbitrarily make specific levels require double the experience, and instead just make the entire curve more challenging?
To add to this, why not make the content more difficult as well, not just the exp per kill as it were? What I mean is having areas at certain levels that absolutely require you to group. I think this would reinforce the community aspect of the game as well. I think EQ1 did a good job of this. There were times you could solo content, but many areas really required groups to produce effective exp in order to level.
I agree with the OP and from what I've read or videos I've seen, the Dev team is definitely intune with what were are thinking.
Camarginy said:I always thought hell levels were a good idea as it firstly gave a sense of achievement after doing one and secondly slowed your pace to reaching max lev. Having a rite of passage after so many levels would be the same idea just with a twist and I am all for it.
Also I have I have never understood why we do not have an option for a hardcore server. Where the xp takes twice as long for instance. It must be easy as we have double experience weekends so why can’t it just be reversed. I’m not saying Pantheon needs it atm as we have not played it but couldn’t it be a possibility to add a server with a more severe death penalty and less experience if asked for?
Oh, man ... While I think it's a neat idea to creat a "hard core" server, I can just imagine the /ragequits happening on this type of server. HAHAHA ... Man, I think I might just create a character on one of these servers just to watch the drama unfold!
I think it should be like reaching your levels in martial arts. As you get higher in level, the game adjusts slightly longer to level up. In other words, it will naturally take 5% longer to level from 5 to 6 than it did to go from 4 to 5. This way, by the end of the game, the higher levels simply take longer, as it should be. The game should be designed to have progressively more content as you gain levels, having the most to do at higher levels, which ties into this structure. Keep in mind AA abilities and things like that.
I like the thinking but there is one sad truth friends might catch up with each other but once the hell level was over they ran just as far ahead as they were before. IMO hell levels were put in place to extend the life of the game. It slowed EVERYONE down so it takes that much longer to get to end game content. Call it what you want just be honest a consequence of hell levels was that people caught up for a short time and you did get to meet new friends. but the longer it takes you to get to end game content the longer the game will last more time between expansions, more time for tweaks and fixes and so on. Now as for having them sure it doesn't matter to me either way just make it interesting please I don't want to have to sit around for days on end begging the level to change so I can move to a different area and see something new. I remember hell levels very well and it didnt matter to me either way like I said the only thing I disliked after a while was repetition. Maybe offer quests with rewards starting at that level or a raid zone or area? Something to get people interested in moving around a bit try new things, man was I so sick of KC if I never see it again I wouldn't be happier.
Pyye said:I think it should be like reaching your levels in martial arts. As you get higher in level, the game adjusts slightly longer to level up. In other words, it will naturally take 5% longer to level from 5 to 6 than it did to go from 4 to 5. This way, by the end of the game, the higher levels simply take longer, as it should be. The game should be designed to have progressively more content as you gain levels, having the most to do at higher levels, which ties into this structure. Keep in mind AA abilities and things like that.
This idea I like. It reminds me of AD&D leveling where it takes much longer the higher level you are.
If I am not mistaken the "hell levels" were a coding/gameplay accident, similar to the random deaths at level 29.
I agree one was the happy accident, partly for the "catching up " aspect. But I eventually made new friends who were on the same groove as I was, and we didn;t care when the next hell levels came around- partly because we had a group that played well together, it just meant going to other places. The thinking was "hmm, the exp is not that great here- but are you looking for something or questing something? if so, lets work ths area untill we get that thingm and someone told me about this place way over there, that they said was pretty good, maybe we cango see what that place is like."
I agree with Liav on the overall outlook, honestly they were a bit of a drag.
I remember speaking briefly with the person that un-did the 29 level random death in the server chat when there was maintenence going on and people were chatting while waiting- very much like we are here in these forums!.
I am a fan of hell levels only because a level in and of itself is arbitrary. I enjoy chasing the carrot in games as much as anyone, but once you get to where you want to go, you get bored. I can get bored at max level or I can get bored during a hell level. The thing about a hell level is that you are doing something interesting at least. You are gaining something still, you are building community still, you are learning dungeons, spawn rotations, your class, etc. My personal goal for the next MMO I play, is to ignore min/max elitism and just enjoy myself whatever I am doing. I appreciate the current MMO mentality to gain power, brag, disappear, comeback and tell people you are the best class in othergame right now, but I am done with all that. I personally do not care. I will play to max level, grind out some stupid thing that was stupid to put in the game, brag about how I am the only live player with all of the lore achievements, and I will have friends who I will congradulate for getting through a hell level.
The rites of passage is a great idea that came from the team. I think it should be tied to hell levels. Like if you are working toward that rite of passage, you gain normal experience, but if you venture out and are determined to farm up something in a dungeon that you have almost outleveled, then you gain exp at a snails pace creating a virtual hell level.
My 2 cp
I am not a fan of specific hell levels, i think that the same effect of people taking time to smell the roses will be applied if all levels just take a long time to get through. instead of having special levels where it takes a week of 24-7 play with a stag group to get through how about all levels take that time? well maybe not the first 5 levels, but after that just make all levels "hell levels" make the game about the journey to the top of the mountain, instead of making it about standing around on the peak watching others trudge your way! hell levels will not really cause everyone to bunch up as i have known a few in eq that would just take vacation time with thier stag group to blast thru em.
Amsai said:Im not strictly against it, but this is definitely an EQ thing. And seems an odd thing to do. Instead of hell levels I hope they stick with the "rights of passage" thing instead. Id much rather have trials to overcome every so many levels that is like a license to level than hell levels. Hell levels just sound tedious and drawn out. Id rather have something that challenges a player, so that levels arent just handed out just because you show up to a group. But to each their own I supose.
I get your premise, and I think that in theory it is good - if implemented in a way that doesn't scream theme park.
The problem I see with "trials" is that it suddenly makes leveling, even if it's just for a few particular milestones, on the rails. Everyone doing the exact same thing for that particular moment. Even if trials were different depending on your class, it's still the game pointing me in a direction that I have to go. I think that we can all collectively say that's what we're not looking for with Pantheon.
Hell levels aren't perfect, but one thing they do do (hehe do do) is they are completely open to different paths. If Pantheon creates enough dungeons, and options, then everyone will accomplish their hell levels in their own style. I'd much rather have that than to see someone achieve a milestone and think "Meh, he did exactly what I did, and the other guy before him did. Nothing special". And let's be honest, give it a couple months and there will be enough tips and tricks and guides on the internet that those trials don't become trials, they become chores. At least with hell levels, WHERE that chore takes place is your decision.
-Tralyan
Krixus said:Thunndar said: Weren't hell levels actually a mistake? Why would anyone want that again? Good lord no
That was what they told us, yes. Like in office space where they were supposed to round off the 100ths of pennies, or something. I'm king of dubious analogies.
