Amsai said: Well that may be where I differ. Im not consumed with worry over themeparkness. No i dont want a theme park but neither do I want or expect a sandpark. I expect elements of both. So a few themepark things will happen in this game and I font see that as a bad thing. That all being said. I believe Brad said something about maybe having multiple methods/paths for these trials. Which would give you more options than if everyone had to do the same thing. Of course the next problem I see at that point is everyone getting the strat for the easiest one and doing that. XI had these type of challenges abd it worked pretty good. They more often than not were not just simple fetch quests. Some involved defeating a Boss Mob. Some involved farming a rare drop in a dangerous area (lots and lots of death). Maybe like someone else said. Give a choice, hell levels or Trials
It's a tough one. If they could somehow make these trials actually HARD, I would be all for it. I'm talking, somewhere in between Epic Quests and Burning Rapier Quest hard. Maybe there's a way to randomly generate very hard quests so that everybody has something different, making it impossible to just look on-line for strats. I dunno. Maybe even something that involves a small raid force to accomplish? Like 2 full groups or friends. Those PUG's might be fun. Lvl 40? Time to start LFG'ing for a mini raid.
Tough call.
-Tralyan
While I agree that you did feel a sense of accomplishment/relief when finishing a hell level from the original EQ, I think that such a mechanic could easily be replaced with something else that would provide the player with a similar sense of accomplishment if not a greater one.
The reason why... while like many I do understand that great feeling when you finished a hell level, on the flip side I knew many players who just became fed up after grinding through the same content for so very long. Hell levels were not difficult or challenging, unless you were looking to test your patience before you could advance more... you endured them. If I really want to endure something I can go to work.
I like the idea of trials at certain milestones during the advancement process, I really hope they find a replacement to hell levels that lets players experience different content and doesn't require them to grind for an extended period.
Just to be clear I don't mind a long levelling process in games, so long as there is lots of content to keep you occupied with new things to see, if I am stuck killing the same mobs in the same 1/2 zones and it takes me a week or more to move on the game is going to get boring quickly.
Cheers,
Jamie said:Now it has been a long time but I think perhaps some of these hell levels for some classes actually had a decent spell or ability at the end of them that may have been worth the extra work. tough levels with good rewards is something I would be a fan of.
I have never played a game with "Hell Levels" and the idea turns me off a bit BUT if there was a spell or a reward waiting for me at the end of that level it would help me push though.
Fulton said:I didn't mind the hell levels themselves, what I hated was the hybrid penalty AND being in a hell level.
IIRC there was some extra smiles and congrats when you could "DING!!!" the end of a hell level. Everyone knew it was an achievement.
You know, it really is amazing how that "ding!!!" in chat is so missed in newer games where leveling is so easy you could ding 5-10 times in a session.
We all knew that sound, that effect when a group member leveled. And we were often as happy for that person as if it was ourselves leveling.
This exactly! I'm also a fan of hell levels and the camaraderie that seemed to form due to them.
Amsai said: Well that may be where I differ. Im not consumed with worry over themeparkness. No i dont want a theme park but neither do I want or expect a sandpark. I expect elements of both. So a few themepark things will happen in this game and I font see that as a bad thing. That all being said. I believe Brad said something about maybe having multiple methods/paths for these trials. Which would give you more options than if everyone had to do the same thing. Of course the next problem I see at that point is everyone getting the strat for the easiest one and doing that. XI had these type of challenges abd it worked pretty good. They more often than not were not just simple fetch quests. Some involved defeating a Boss Mob. Some involved farming a rare drop in a dangerous area (lots and lots of death). Maybe like someone else said. Give a choice, hell levels or Trials
I just want to expand a bit on FFXI's system. I know (from your avatar) that you know this, but after reading the comments in this thread, it is clear that most do not. They were Limit Breaks, and had to be done every 5 levels after level 50 in order to progress. One great thing that has happened over the years is that they are still relevant today. Even in today's FFXI where everyone levels mostly solo using the Trust system, you still get groups at 50+ that go out and do their Limit Breaks. Hell levels will be the first thing to go when the leveling path needs to be streamlined down the road, and offer no real social benefit beyond what normal grouping would. The trial system would give a purpose in addition to just grinding XP, and require community to come together to complete them.
I do agree that it will become a chore by the time you roll through on your second alt, and getting high level assistance to trivialize it sort of defeats the purpose of them. I don't really have a solution to that aspect.
I think hell levels would be great. They made the level itself very memorable and it was a great accomplishment to finally pass it.
However many hell levels there would be maybe make them randomly picked without your knowing when you create your character.
Say there are going to be 3 hell levels for the 1-50 progression. Well the game randomly picks your 3 hell levels. Then depending on the level randomly picked there is something different that must be accomplished to advance through the level providing you something different once it's completed. Of course you could just grind out the level, but if you did the accompanying task you come out with some kind of ability or what not.
Would create a wide span of possible character advancements. Could be different depending on class and/or race and/or home city.
One of the only problems I had with EQ hell levels is that the risk did not match the reward, upon dinging out of a hell level you were greeted by a character of similar power as the one before the hell level.
If a level takes 2-4 times longer than one of the previous, i should come out with 2-4 times the rewards of the previous.
The reason I liked Hell Levels wasn't because it bottle necked people every 5 levels. I liked them because if you level too fast, you don't have time to See The World.
I don't want to get in a level 5 group and gain 10 levels in One spot and miss out on a level 9 dungeon 3 zones over. Little road blocks can be a good thing.
They also don't have to be Double exps levels. maybe just 50% more than normal.
Hell levels are a terrible idea, and honestly I am having a hard time believing there are so many people who are in favor of them.
It doesn’t add any value to the game and doesn’t make any sense. As I am leveling up, why all of a sudden, would I start receiving only partial experience for killing a mob just because I reached a specific level?
Besides, I have always heard that hell levels were caused by a bug in the code. There have been arguments made about whether this is true or not. Perhaps Brad could chime in answer this once and for all. I would really like to know the truth.
But regardless if it’s true or not, Pantheon doesn’t have to have every single feature that was in Everquest, just because. There are things that were great in Everquest and things that weren’t. Hell levels weren’t a great feature.
And for those that say you loved the hell levels because it added immersion and gave you a sense of accomplishment when you got through it, you really don’t need to have hell levels implemented in the game. You can create your own Hell levels very easily. Starting at level 30, once you get your experience bar almost to max, just start killing yourself repeatedly until your experience bar goes back down to zero. Then you can enjoy the fun and immersion you seek by leveling up all over again. Once your experience bar is almost full a second time, if you still are not immersed enough and need some more time in your level, feel free to do it all over again until you think you’re ready to go on to the next level. Do that every 5 levels and you should be happy as a clam. : )
While you are busy doing that, the rest of can enjoy playing the game like a normal person. : P
So just a small idea about how to stay at the same level as your grp friends in VG they had a NO EXP TOGGLE so if you are further ahead in exp of your grp friends you toggle that so you gain no exp till the catch up to you. This would insure that you and all your running mates are at the same of close to each other in exp
Kromiv said:Hell levels are a terrible idea, and honestly I am having a hard time believing there are so many people who are in favor of them.
It doesn’t add any value to the game and doesn’t make any sense. As I am leveling up, why all of a sudden, would I start receiving only partial experience for killing a mob just because I reached a specific level?
Besides, I have always heard that hell levels were caused by a bug in the code. There have been arguments made about whether this is true or not. Perhaps Brad could chime in answer this once and for all. I would really like to know the truth.
But regardless if it’s true or not, Pantheon doesn’t have to have every single feature that was in Everquest, just because. There are things that were great in Everquest and things that weren’t. Hell levels weren’t a great feature.
And for those that say you loved the hell levels because it added immersion and gave you a sense of accomplishment when you got through it, you really don’t need to have hell levels implemented in the game. You can create your own Hell levels very easily. Starting at level 30, once you get your experience bar almost to max, just start killing yourself repeatedly until your experience bar goes back down to zero. Then you can enjoy the fun and immersion you seek by leveling up all over again. Once your experience bar is almost full a second time, if you still are not immersed enough and need some more time in your level, feel free to do it all over again until you think you’re ready to go on to the next level. Do that every 5 levels and you should be happy as a clam. : )
While you are busy doing that, the rest of can enjoy playing the game like a normal person. : P
Kromiv said:Hell levels are a terrible idea, and honestly I am having a hard time believing there are so many people who are in favor of them.
It doesn’t add any value to the game and doesn’t make any sense. As I am leveling up, why all of a sudden, would I start receiving only partial experience for killing a mob just because I reached a specific level?
Besides, I have always heard that hell levels were caused by a bug in the code. There have been arguments made about whether this is true or not. Perhaps Brad could chime in answer this once and for all. I would really like to know the truth.
But regardless if it’s true or not, Pantheon doesn’t have to have every single feature that was in Everquest, just because. There are things that were great in Everquest and things that weren’t. Hell levels weren’t a great feature.
And for those that say you loved the hell levels because it added immersion and gave you a sense of accomplishment when you got through it, you really don’t need to have hell levels implemented in the game. You can create your own Hell levels very easily. Starting at level 30, once you get your experience bar almost to max, just start killing yourself repeatedly until your experience bar goes back down to zero. Then you can enjoy the fun and immersion you seek by leveling up all over again. Once your experience bar is almost full a second time, if you still are not immersed enough and need some more time in your level, feel free to do it all over again until you think you’re ready to go on to the next level. Do that every 5 levels and you should be happy as a clam. : )
While you are busy doing that, the rest of can enjoy playing the game like a normal person. : P
It does help to note, that those "hell levels" signified something to the characters.
And that on those levels, the expeience needed was ie 300% more than the previous level (typical AD&D stuff). These hell levels tested the player's mettal and allowed other to group with them, before being lunch forward and within a whole new group of advanced players.
Hell levls build character. Both in the player themselves, and also in learning group tactics, etc. Hell lvl's was a right of passage, onto a new part of your career and role.
Hieromonk said:It does help to note, that those "hell levels" signified something to the characters.
And that on those levels, the expeience needed was ie 300% more than the previous level (typical AD&D stuff). These hell levels tested the player's mettal and allowed other to group with them, before being lunch forward and within a whole new group of advanced players.
Hell levls build character. Both in the player themselves, and also in learning group tactics, etc. Hell lvl's was a right of passage, onto a new part of your career and role.
Well, this is your opinion of hell levels, not a proven fact. We obviously have different opinions on the subject.
Personally, I never felt they helped me build character, or played a role in building group tactics. They were just a period when my experience gain suddenly decreased for no apparent reason.
You make it seem like hell levels were a transition from one style of play into another, but I dont see your point. How did you play your character different at 31 than you did at 29? And what was it about level 30 that prepared you for that change of play style? And same for all the other hell levels. Can you give examples?
Sure, people will use different tactics in different situations based on what they are fighting and what classes they have in their group. But that is true regardless of what level you are. Having hell levels doesn’t change any of that.
I hadn't thought of the bunching aspect of hell levels - good thinking OP.
Hmm. I'm basically for ANYTHING that slows down progression and brings people together, but of course, it means you need more content to see you through.
I quite liked GW2's area levels, though, which achieve the same thing?... You are level 20 and you go to a level 10-12 area to meet a friend, you are scaled to level 12 while you are there. No need to bunch people up with hell levels if, whenever you go somewhere with lower level people, you still are 'challenged' by the content.
Hell levels were a bug and were left in on purpose for a purpose.. I definitely hated them with a passion but also had a tremendous feeling of accomplishment one I was through one. Rights of Passage is important. Do they need to be in Pantheon? I don't know. I'd like something every so many levels that makes it so you feel you accomplished something. A trial in a specific zone aimed at that level is perhaps a good idea!
Amsai said:Instead of hell levels I hope they stick with the "rights of passage" thing instead. Id much rather have trials to overcome every so many levels that is like a license to level than hell levels. Hell levels just sound tedious and drawn out. Id rather have something that challenges a player, so that levels arent just handed out just because you show up to a group. But to each their own I supose.
A wonderful idea,some type of proving challenges,rites
To advance, a player needs to pass the rite of freedom ,freeing a village of invaders.
For the rite of peace you need to stop a war between 2 alignments by negotiations
Then there would be rite of valor/conquest/death/justice
Tenet
-an understanding that player involvement is required for progression-
This way,players are involved
by making the leveling tedious -hell levels- won't automatically become involving.
I remember fiesta having these Type of hell levels too.Most of the time I was not even playing the game;auto-follow friend.Hell just for friend :-D
-An agreement that player levels should both be meaningful and memorable-
Check for provings
never looked at it that way before
I don't see how it adds anything of value at all. It is just an artificial time sink for the sake of having a time sink. There is nothing it does for your character that provides any benefit that you arent already getting in the non hell levels.
I hated Hell Levels until I realized that remaining in a lvl range wasn't so bad. While stuck in a Hell lvl I was able to experience/explore more of the content ( dungeons, zones and the like ) durring a lvl range. I made more friends to aventure with. The shared experiences and new friendships were lasting ones. A few of the RL friendships I have today were formed durring those Hell lvls. From that perspective Hell lvs were actually a blessing not a curse. I remember feeling a sense of loss after completing a Hell lvl and found myself looking forward to the next one. I know that must sound kinda twist....ed lol. It's all a matter of perspective.
In VG, the early 20's in crafting were extremely difficult in the beginning. Mostly because they required using abilities and skills you never needed before. Even the easiest work orders were almost impossible. No reason something like that could not be implemented here. For instance, maybe all the level 20-30 dungeons require fire resistance, which you never needed before. If the gear you need to progress only drops in these dungeons, progress will naturally slow down if drop rates are low, since you will be killing mobs that don't give max exp (3-4 levels higher) as you acquire enough gear to move to tougher areas.