Kilsin said:Brad has stated that "Hell Levels" were a bug and we will not have them in Pantheon, we will, however, have appropriate level curves to best suit a character's progression in Pantheon.
You got to be joking? After all these years i now know it was a bug??? many of us believed it was apart of the game and got used to it and enjoyed it for the most part.
HAHA jokes on us then LMAO
NO really many of us enjoyed and hated it but it kept eq going....
"BRAD" where are you, going to find you and duct tape your ass to the chair
Kilsin said:Brad has stated that "Hell Levels" were a bug and we will not have them in Pantheon, we will, however, have appropriate level curves to best suit a character's progression in Pantheon.
Can you tell us whether or not the level curves will be monotonic? I understand that Hell Levels were unintentional, but the concept is not necessarily without merit. I bet it should at least warrant a dev discussion, but you guys have probably already done that :).
As much as I hated Hell Levels, they did slow down progression and give you another hurdle to jump while playing. It was quite gratifying when you finally dinged past a Hell Level and you knew that the next 2 or so levels would come quick. They were a nice little speedbump that gave you some momentum once you were past them. That is, of course, until you came up on the next one...
Not being an EQ player I missed the hell level experience. In fact, when I saw the thread caption I thought it was about some really hard zones and was thinking more of ....cow levels as in Diablo ((laughs)).
Come to think of it though, there were levels in other games that were really hard to get through either because of inadaquate content at that level or an anomoly in the leveling tables.
My invariable reaction was that these did NOT enhance the experience and were not fun. Pure grinding or doing seriously outleveled quests out of desperation tends not to be for many of us.
Kilsin said:Brad has stated that "Hell Levels" were a bug and we will not have them in Pantheon, we will, however, have appropriate level curves to best suit a character's progression in Pantheon.
Thank you Kilsin for the info. I remember HELL levels fondly and see no need to leave them out. But like you say it was a mistake and so we learn.
Maybe every 8 levels or so you can make the levels a little more involving on perception or some skill just to take the tediousness ouit of leveling?
Maybe to reach level "20" you need to complete a certain quest or achievement goal before you level. Make the reward some awesome spell or melee activated damage you only can get for completing the quest?/
It is pleasant to see your character ding when a level-up happens.But it is not memorable.
The only thing memorable to me personally are job advancement quests
At the time when your character dings ,you might feel relieved or happy .But that joy lasts only for a short moment as ,on itself,it is not memorable.
I remember job advancement missions from games from the 90's because they were compelling experiences,often a challenge to complete too
Levels are sort of like these blinking lights on maps that tell you to go places,smoke and mirrors;
Levels give a deceptive sense of accomplishment;it is like the chatbox telling secrets of a place,event,person etc
If they want players to care about the world it would be better to go for a compelling class advancement system, missions to unlock skills etc (a mastery system :novice-expert-master-grandmaster)
That would be a true compelling and gratifying way to progress
-I need to gain experience - is vague;in what? a valid question.
Also like the fact that wizards will be able to perceive things a warrior can not
Clerics can gain insight through prayer;an experience a rogue can never have.But rogues can gain experience in disarming traps and bypassing
In MMOs there have always been one kind of experience for character leveling
While experience is a process of getting knowledge or skill from doing,seeing,feeling things
So maybe its time for different type of levels, based on how each character (class) is supposed to unfold while spending time at Terminus
Making leveling less about visual cues and more about the world players are in and how they go about in order to absorb that knowledge and skill
Sometimes i hate leveling and wish i could just skip to the endgame in an mmorpg, thats usually when the game really starts. Kind of glad a lot of games are doing that approach where you can pay for a boost, i dont want to waste so much time just trying to get to the good stuff.
Heskel said:Sometimes i hate leveling and wish i could just skip to the endgame in an mmorpg, thats usually when the game really starts. Kind of glad a lot of games are doing that approach where you can pay for a boost, i dont want to waste so much time just trying to get to the good stuff.
This is why devs need to focus on the early levels and all of the content BEFORE max level. Thankfully, the devs here have stated plenty of times that PRF will be about the journey and not the end game. And I have faith in them, EQ1 and VG did 1-maxlevel FAR better than most of the current MMO out today.
Heskel said:Sometimes i hate leveling and wish i could just skip to the endgame in an mmorpg, thats usually when the game really starts. Kind of glad a lot of games are doing that approach where you can pay for a boost, i dont want to waste so much time just trying to get to the good stuff.
I don't think that's the kind of experience you'll see in Pantheon. That boost you speak of is literally a consolation prize for anybody/everybody who can afford to play in the "pay to win" cash shop palooza. As much as I have enjoyed the end-game of the many MMO's I have played, there was always something even more special about getting there. The first time you run a full group dungeon ... the first time you see someone get rezzed ... the first time you get thumped by an NPC 20 levels higher than you because you were at the wrong place at the wrong (night) time ...
VR has said that they are trying to build a game that will be enjoyable through all levels. The notion of the game "starting at end-game" is something they are working hard to prevent; even with raids, they'll have them sprinkled in with the low-mid level tiers. I'm hoping to see a bunch of small progressive power increases spread all over the world ... whether it's getting a new piece of situational gear from a rare spawn, learning a new spell, finding a new area with it's own cool faction rewards ... or acquiring that ever elusive ultra rare drop. The longer the progression curves (horizontal, vertical, diagonal), the happier I will be ... and I hope to see the "Rites of Passage" included in that which should be something that we deal with several times during our leveling process.
you could also say that without levels,anything would be endgame
A game where environment truly matters might be easier to achieve without levels as we've seen them in MMOs before
Spending meaningful time in each area ,bringing the focus back to exploring,players compelled by what they see in front of them.
Levels get in the way of all this I sometimes think.It is not easy for players to sit back and enjoying the ride when levels are involved.
-endgame is where the game usually starts- In most mmo's this is true (because they have no real depth)
Levels distract players,in order not to see the lack of compelling gameplay overall.
(between friends it can also be friendly competition ,wanting to beat friends to the finish line/max level)
They rush to endgame think thats where all the enjoyment is at (and sometimes there is some really great stuff that gets them going for a while)
But time again and again
it is more like a short-lived fad that fades away just as quickly
If it is a rush to endgame, nothing sticks about the journey,few places are worth revisiting.
Fluffy said:It is pleasant to see your character ding when a level-up happens.But it is not memorable. ......
I disagree. I remember reaching level 20 killing aquagoblins in Dagnor's Cauldron. I was so happy because I could finally get my last name! That was certainly one of the most memorable dings. Another was level 5. I got gate. Another was level 14. I got spirit of the wolf. I remember where I was on both those occasions and I played the game since day one so that was over 18 years ago. (or nearly 18 years ago when I dinged those levels)
Name me one other game where you remembered not only what level you got when but also where you were and who you were with??
To me it would be a major asset if certain defining things happened to your character at (a) certain levels(s).
Durp said:Fluffy said:It is pleasant to see your character ding when a level-up happens.But it is not memorable. ......
I disagree. I remember reaching level 20 killing aquagoblins in Dagnor's Cauldron. I was so happy because I could finally get my last name! That was certainly one of the most memorable dings. Another was level 5. I got gate. Another was level 14. I got spirit of the wolf. I remember where I was on both those occasions and I played the game since day one so that was over 18 years ago. (or nearly 18 years ago when I dinged those levels)
Name me one other game where you remembered not only what level you got when but also where you were and who you were with??
To me it would be a major asset if certain defining things happened to your character at (a) certain levels(s).
I disagree aswell, EQ has always been super to DING! level up. It was very satisfying to level up because you would plan on it, spells, abilities, researched, explored, quested, items all that mattered prior in EQ. You made a difference with your level and felt powerful. Especially when your spells ment something.
Here is a list of games i could not care about after EQ, durning EQ 17 yrs
WOW did not care if i leveled up
Lineage 2 could not wait until i got rid of the game, levels too difficult at the time
DOAC boring to level up
Shadowbane useless to level up, everyone exploited anyways.
Rift same deal as wow
Returned to EQ? every time and once i hit a certain level it just automatically made me smile with pride.
I am sure others may not have that experience. I dont know but it felt something more then those other games.
AM i crazzie???
Durp,positive memories contain more contextual details
To me it sounds like you were actually happy about the unlockments(last name,gate,wolf spirit)
and because of that you happen to remember at which level it happened.
Were it not for these positive memories about the unlockments you achieved,you would have no memory of the level(levels on their own are not memorable)
I have a lot of fond memories about where I was and who I was with in MMOs.
One involves a necromancer I met who spoke the same language as me
We joined forces (I was a necromancer too at the time) and we held a competition of giving the dirtiest names for our minions,in-between fighting off the multiple invasions
These defining things happening to your character are a must,but they do not need to be linked to levels in order to bringing the focus back to exploring,and to make players compelled by what they see in front of them.
Lots of good ideas here. I think I side with keeping them in if there is some sort of advantage at the other end, maybe a class defining ability, unlock of a certain aspect of the game.
Essentially I think the hell levels are a good idea but I hope they build upon the EQ hell level rather than copy it.
Ainadak said:Kilsin said:Brad has stated that "Hell Levels" were a bug and we will not have them in Pantheon, we will, however, have appropriate level curves to best suit a character's progression in Pantheon.
Can you tell us whether or not the level curves will be monotonic? I understand that Hell Levels were unintentional, but the concept is not necessarily without merit. I bet it should at least warrant a dev discussion, but you guys have probably already done that :).
We have certainly discussed it, I can't give any more information than what I have already given, you folks will be able to help us tweak this experience curve (if it needs it) during testing. :)
In guildwars 1 ,I remember an event where you had to fight a clone of yourself as a priest
in order to unlock an ability.Certain races/classes could learn how to activate certain environmental objects
others can not interact with,making experience gain unique in some cases
Majority of players have become accustomed to those unlockments being tied up with levels.
Less levels :power gap between zones might remain smaller ;Players are less inclined to skip on zones that they have outleveled.
some levels might require a mission to unlock ;the mission has impact on things like alignment,skills that unlock etc
Stats might alter each time you level based on what you did during the last level (and since there are fewer and slower levels you do a lot in-between levels so it becomes important what you do)
With fewer levels players might be more inclined to spend meaningful time rather than rushing to a far distant max level
If there are to be levels,I hope its only like 20 slow ones instead of 80.
A huge power gap between zones makes 90 % of content irrelevant
At fluffy.
I have 100's if not more memories on all sort of things eq that have nothing to do with a level or have a level associated with it. we will always associate one or more things with each memory. I still argue that i waited and looked forward to that level 20 ding and when a guide gave me my last name. The event was memorable and level and therefore the ding was what made it so.
i guess it's a matter of perspective. I believe what I believe and you're entitled to believe what you want.
Everyone has hundreds of memories that have nothing to do with level/have no level associated
and that is the whole point I'm trying to make;
In essence levels do not create memorable experiences
A progression system can do without levels in order to create those.
Durp said:The event was memorable and level and therefore the ding was what made it so.
Following that logic:
The dish in that restaurant was so memorable,therefor the fork I ate it with made it so
It is the good food that made it memorable,not the fork you eat it with
(Just like it is the game content that makes things memorable,not the level system)
The excitement for a ding could be replaced with an in-depth character metamorphose
A part of the character creation , happening post character creation as a different stage unlockment during the game.
free to believe what you want counts for you too.
If you say -the event was memorable- is it really the ding that made it so?
I can understand that to some people the ding is a gratifying relief -ah,we finally made it- in that sense.
An alternative like a post-creation metamorphose unlockment could be way more satisfying.
So I wonder how it would be if we had the choice to either keep our character as it is,have the metamorphose as some kind of elder stage
or create the child as a new character(progeny system)
To me ,the character creation is one of the most fun things
@Fluffy
I actually agree with your argument, but not your conclusion. It is true that a level is not inherently memorable. Nobody really cares that they got 1 higher number at some point in time. It is the associated benefits that make the thing worthwhile. If your character had "dinged" when you reached level 12.5, but absolutely nothing else happened until you actually reached level 13, then the 12.5 ding would be utterly meaningless, while the 13 ding would be memorable.
However, that does not negate the value of a leveling system. Using a leveling system provides a rigid structure around which the goals we seek can be arranged. Progression based games require a structure to organize the work and rewards. We need something restricting us in order to provide a sense of progression and to that end, the leveling paradigm fits the bill. It provides clear (albeit arbitrary) distinctions between what you can and cannot do at a given point in time, allowing the players to understand their current status on the progression curve and how to improve their character. There are probably many other great (better?) ways to organize work and rewards, but I would say if it aint broke, don't fix it.
I agree that saying the fork which let you eat the good food is not what makes it memorable, despite being necessary. However, I'll try to twist your analogy to make my point. Let's say you ate a shrimp scampi dish that had onions and parsley that really balanced each other out and tasted amazing. You could describe it as "great shrimp scampi" and be entirely right, but in reality, it was the onions and parsley that made it shine. Saying that "leveling" was great is still entirely right, even if it is the underlying "ingredients" that made it shine.
Wife just loves to level. Those increasing numbers matter to her. Probably why she has so many alts.