Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The value of Hell Levels

    • 643 posts
    March 21, 2016 6:32 PM PDT

    Look, somehow EQ did a whole bunch of things "right", which is one of the reasons we are here today - trying to recapture the feel that gave us.   And, it wasn't until those things were eroded away that we realized they were great things.  The thread entitled "The value of corpses" is a wonderful illustration of this.

     

    So, hear me out......

     

    Everyone hated Hell Levels....every five or ten levels, there was a level where XP was gained at some painfully fractional rate.  But here is what it did for us:

    Think of traffic on a busy raod.  Everyone clipping along at different speeds, but then a red light pops up and jams up traffic.  Everyone catches up with each other, then for  a bit, everyone is "together" again.

    That's not a great analogy but you get the idea:  hell levels slow down the race-to-the-top and they help players bunch up so players are more "together" and can group and raid and play together.

     

    They really did add something of value - as much as we hated them.  They weren't call "Hell levels" for nothin'

     

     

     


    This post was edited by fazool at March 21, 2016 7:53 PM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    March 21, 2016 6:49 PM PDT

    I loved hell levels, even during them. Powering through and getting to the other side was such an accomplishment. You could run across someone you'd never met before and see that you're both 31 and you'd know what each other went through. There was a difference between the difference between(ugh) 54 and 55 vs 55 and 56. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at March 21, 2016 6:49 PM PDT
    • 93 posts
    March 21, 2016 7:03 PM PDT

    I see the analogy and point you were making. It's a good point really. I always thought about that when I would hit a hell level.

    • 176 posts
    March 21, 2016 7:15 PM PDT

    I like the way you put that. I am sold. 

    • 668 posts
    March 21, 2016 8:52 PM PDT

    I don't mind them a bit as a part of the structure.  I agree with the OP

    To add to their point, players stop looking at the exp bar and actually go out and see the world.  You tend to group more (after you grind out your insurance exp) and do more things with many different players.  I am for it as I am one who wants experiences, not standing around in town at max level...

    • 124 posts
    March 21, 2016 8:57 PM PDT

    I can't say I blame yah... but come on, they get so boring after awhile

    Yeah, I hear what you're saying and I get it, I do, but come on have mercy!

     

    :)

    • 2130 posts
    March 21, 2016 9:25 PM PDT

    Why arbitrarily make specific levels require double the experience, and instead just make the entire curve more challenging?

    • 91 posts
    March 21, 2016 9:58 PM PDT

    fazool said:

    Look, somehow EQ did a whole bunch of things "right", which is one of the reasons we are here today - trying to recapture the feel that gave us.   And, it wasn't until those things were eroded away that we realized they were great things.  The thread entitled "The value of corpses" is a wonderful illustration of this.

     

    So, hear me out......

     

    Everyone hated Hell Levels....every five or ten levels, there was a level where XP was gained at some painfully fractional rate.  But here is what it did for us:

    Think of traffic on a busy raod.  Everyone clipping along at different speeds, but then a red light pops up and jams up traffic.  Everyone catches up with each other, then for  a bit, everyone is "together" again.

    That's not a great analogy but you get the idea:  hell levels slow down the race-to-the-top and they help players bunch up so players are more "together" and can group and raid and play together.

     

    They really did add something of value - as much as we hated them.  They weren't call "Hell levels" for nothin'

     

     

     

     

    Gah Hell levels no thank you.

     

    xanier

    • 288 posts
    March 21, 2016 10:43 PM PDT

    This is what I've been saying for years, I hate them just like everyone else, but they served an important purpose, the traffic light isn't a good analogy because after the light turns green everyone speeds up, that's not the case with hell levels, after your friend who is 80% ahead of you in a hell level dings, he could be 2 levels higher than you by the time you ding... but nevertheless in a game where being near each others levels was important, it did slow your friend down for long enough for you to keep getting exp with him if you were behind.

    • 238 posts
    March 21, 2016 11:57 PM PDT

    I know at one point there was allot of talk about adding hurdles to leveling that were not related to gaining experience. It was very vague but was something along the line of every so many levels the player needed to overcome or earn something that allowed them to continue gaining experience. This would forces them to mix it up when leveling rather than just sit at one camp for 5 levels then repeat at the next camp.

    I am not really advocating this because it’s a little too vague at the moment but it was mentioned at some point.

     

    Like another said above, even if the hell level brought people together at specific levels as soon as you make it through that level and back to normal exping, everyone else is still going slow while you zoom ahead.

    • 176 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:09 AM PDT

    Now it has been a long time but I think perhaps some of these hell levels for some classes actually had a decent spell or ability at the end of them that may have been worth the extra work. tough levels with good rewards is something I would be a fan of.

    I would also say it is not a bad Idea to slow people down at 9th, 19th, 29th etc. This allows people to stick in an area just a little bit longer for their friends to catch up. If your friends can get from level 6 or 7-9 by the time you get from level 9-10 then the whole party could move on together. This benefits everyone. The 9th level group gets to go to the tougher area with more XP a little early and the 10th level player will get ahead of the group again. The group will push through levels 9-10 quicker then they would in the old area.

    By no means is this a deal breaker for me. Just ideas at how to keep the group together. I am all about grouping and do not really love soloing. I had tons of fun on my druid, kiting giants and such but it is not the same as playing my tank and leading a group of players in to the depths of some area and coming out successful. There is not much better than finishing a game session and someone asking to add to friends list for future groups. That is the real win. Building a network of happy and available players is the key to success.

    • 1468 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:57 AM PDT

    Hell levels work to some degree and I certainly wouldn't be upset if they were included in the game. As someone else said if the hell level happened the level before you got a new really cool spell then it would help motivate people to grind their way through the hell levels and it would make it a nice big achievement when you finally get through the hell level. So yeah I quite like the idea of hell levels, especially if they were combined with the idea that once you get through them you get rewarded with a cool new spell.

    • 643 posts
    March 22, 2016 5:39 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Why arbitrarily make specific levels require double the experience, and instead just make the entire curve more challenging?

     

    Because varying progress creates interruptions in flow and causes players to bunch up.  Simply making every level harder by scaling does not accomplish that.

     

     

    • 793 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:10 AM PDT

    I didn't mind the hell levels themselves, what I hated was the hybrid penalty AND being in a hell level. 

    IIRC there was some extra smiles and congrats when you could "DING!!!" the end of a hell level. Everyone knew it was an achievement.

    You know, it really is amazing how that "ding!!!" in chat is so missed in newer games where leveling is so easy you could ding 5-10 times in a session.

    We all knew that sound, that effect when a group member leveled. And we were often as happy for that person as if it was ourselves leveling.

     

     

     

    • 1778 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:12 AM PDT

    Im not strictly against it, but this is definitely an EQ thing. And seems an odd thing to do. Instead of hell levels I hope they stick with the "rights of passage" thing instead. Id much rather have trials to overcome every so many levels that is like a license to level than hell levels. Hell levels just sound tedious and drawn out. Id rather have something that challenges a player, so that levels arent just handed out just because you show up to a group. But to each their own I supose. 

    • 793 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:16 AM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Im not strictly against it, but this is definitely an EQ thing. And seems an odd thing to do. Instead of hell levels I hope they stick with the "rights of passage" thing instead. Id much rather have trials to overcome every so many levels that is like a license to level than hell levels. Hell levels just sound tedious and drawn out. Id rather have something that challenges a player, so that levels arent just handed out just because you show up to a group. But to each their own I supose. 

     

    The Trials concept actually sounds interesting, if done right as to not completely stop someone from advancing in level. But as something to slow them down to acquire a some special ability gained at that level. You could choose to forego the ability for a bit, and not hinder your progress, and later return to it type thing.


    This post was edited by Fulton at March 22, 2016 6:17 AM PDT
    • 383 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:29 AM PDT

    I'd be down for hell levels from 1-max :) 

    • 45 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:52 AM PDT

    Im up for anything that gives me a sense of accomplishment.  Hell levels absolutely gave me that sense of accomplishment.  Just getting to the other side of that hell level was a huge accomplishment in and of itself.  When you /shout DING! 31, it was a big deal!

    Im wondering if the same feeling can be applied to crafting skill ups, or would it even make sense to do something similiar with crafting?  It made more sense with leveling for sure cause it was those speed bumps every 5 levels that helped people stay together reletively so that folks could more easily find groups.  

    • 556 posts
    March 22, 2016 7:56 AM PDT

    While the analogy is a good one, I don't agree that it's accurate. Yes the hell levels allowed people to catch up but those people still had to go through the same level. So once they actually got through it you would normally be 2-3 levels over them again. So essentially they didn't really catch up at all. 

    I am against hell levels. Would rather the curve be smooth instead of having the jagged edges of hell levels to pass through. This way every level would be an accomplishment not just every 10 or so.

    • 157 posts
    March 22, 2016 8:00 AM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Im not strictly against it, but this is definitely an EQ thing. And seems an odd thing to do. Instead of hell levels I hope they stick with the "rights of passage" thing instead. Id much rather have trials to overcome every so many levels that is like a license to level than hell levels. Hell levels just sound tedious and drawn out. Id rather have something that challenges a player, so that levels arent just handed out just because you show up to a group. But to each their own I supose. 

    /onboard

    I'd love to see a trials-type event/quest in place.

    • 45 posts
    March 22, 2016 8:11 AM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    This way every level would be an accomplishment not just every 10 or so.

     

    I think every level was an accomplishment in EQ.  That is why people would /shout thier DING and get many congrats in return.  I just think that Hell Levels were even more so of an accomplishment.  I mean, I would be happy either way so long as the journey is the priority and that it does take a while to level.  I just like the little nuances of making things difficult so that success is that much sweeter.  

    • 70 posts
    March 22, 2016 9:05 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Why arbitrarily make specific levels require double the experience, and instead just make the entire curve more challenging?

    This.  Why should leveling be fast and if not fast it's boring?  The journey is a fun part not the destination...unless we are playing a themepark PvP game where all the best content is at max level.  I certainly hope leveling is slow so that I always have something to acomplish and look forward to.

    • 15 posts
    March 22, 2016 9:14 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Why arbitrarily make specific levels require double the experience, and instead just make the entire curve more challenging?

     

    So i agree with you there, but I think this is part of the problem with hell levels: They were arbitrary.

     

    What if there were a few hell levels(made up examples: 30. 40, 45) where you achieved significant milestones to your character at those levels. Something that would transform the gameplay and add a new layer of depth to your class. You would earn these new abilities/features/whatever, and then spend more time at that level learning the new feature.

    I'm not 100% advocating for hell levels but if they're going to be here, I'd like to see them tied to something meaningful so there is at least some reason why we are spending more time at a level.

    • 1778 posts
    March 22, 2016 10:16 AM PDT
    Thats where the right of passage quests could come in
    • 157 posts
    March 22, 2016 10:38 AM PDT

    @deltaloko What if there were a few hell levels(made up examples: 30. 40, 45) where you achieved significant milestones to your character at those levels. Something that would transform the gameplay and add a new layer of depth to your class. You would earn these new abilities/features/whatever, and then spend more time at that level learning the new feature.

    I'm not 100% advocating for hell levels but if they're going to be here, I'd like to see them tied to something meaningful so there is at least some reason why we are spending more time at a level.

    @Amsai Thats where the right of passage quests could come in

    I would love to see a dynamic quest or "right of passage" or other interactive, player-driven activity several times during the course of the leveling process.  I think we tend to become goal-fixated when playing these games, and one extremely visible goal is the experience bar.  I really hope Brad and the team don't shy away from the idea; it is something they mentioned early on.  I'd MUCH rather spend a lot of time doing some immersive questing rather than spending the same amount of time killing "X" number more mobs.  It's this type of thinking that got me interested in Pantheon.