Raidan said:Zarriya said:Filzin said: Careful what you wish for. Making low levels take too long will limit long term growth. As word gets out about pantheonrotf post launch and stragglers start coming around, we want them to be able to catch up with the bulk of the population. If low levels are too long and require large groups, we will relegate our game to only the initial launch population and once it dwindles.....I hear what you are saying Filzin, and I agree - but that is the always the problem of having a game with levels. In a game with level based content you always have that seperation issue. The game shouldnt just be all about rushing to endgame and that is what my comment is conveying.
But to Zarriya's point, without slow progression you damage the long-term anyway. And, I don't want the stragglers to catch up - I'd rather avoid that mindset. Like Zarriya said, I want the perception to change from rushing to endgame (catching-up) to enjoying the journey. They should experience the game as did everyone else did, and, if they're /power levelers they may catch up to initial crowd. If Pantheon is at the point where the newbie zones are bare 6+ months after launch (or less) - and it's only stragglers who are starting - then there's some population issues. EQ didn't experience the bare newbie zones until many expansions after launch. I'd rather Pantheon be creative with design to continue to make newbie/older zones relevant rather than plan by design that newbie zones will ultimately be bare so newbie content should be burned through.
Completely agree. I think there's good things from EQ to harken back to, but the feeling is more exciting than the mechanics of the how. In fact, the mechanics probably do need to change a lot so that we have something different than what everyone has played before, so we can rekindle that feeling of aw most of us had from EQ.
I personally want people so distracted by the content, that no one is bothering to think about exp. It would help to have hidden exp bars like others suggest, so that we can really say "this isn't a wow clone. This game is about the journey, and the journey will be a long one."
If someone played their first session, and was already thrown into quests, an immersive zone, a town where they didn't know where to go and had to actually figure it out, a community of people who talk to eachother, and despite all of that, they got upset and because they had tons of content and adventure, but never saw "ding, level 2," then I'd question if they'd fit into the kind of world I'm hoping to see in this game.
So many games promise to make a world where you get distracted by the journey and forget to chase levels, but then the levels are so quick and easy, everyone just goes and solos their way to end game in a matter of days. There are many pieces of the puzzle to prevent this, but the easiest cornerstone of a world where the journey matters, is to make each level take a long time, therefor adding extreme value when it actually comes!
Arksien said:Raidan said:Zarriya said:Filzin said: Careful what you wish for. Making low levels take too long will limit long term growth. As word gets out about pantheonrotf post launch and stragglers start coming around, we want them to be able to catch up with the bulk of the population. If low levels are too long and require large groups, we will relegate our game to only the initial launch population and once it dwindles.....I hear what you are saying Filzin, and I agree - but that is the always the problem of having a game with levels. In a game with level based content you always have that seperation issue. The game shouldnt just be all about rushing to endgame and that is what my comment is conveying.
But to Zarriya's point, without slow progression you damage the long-term anyway. And, I don't want the stragglers to catch up - I'd rather avoid that mindset. Like Zarriya said, I want the perception to change from rushing to endgame (catching-up) to enjoying the journey. They should experience the game as did everyone else did, and, if they're /power levelers they may catch up to initial crowd. If Pantheon is at the point where the newbie zones are bare 6+ months after launch (or less) - and it's only stragglers who are starting - then there's some population issues. EQ didn't experience the bare newbie zones until many expansions after launch. I'd rather Pantheon be creative with design to continue to make newbie/older zones relevant rather than plan by design that newbie zones will ultimately be bare so newbie content should be burned through.
Completely agree. I think there's good things from EQ to harken back to, but the feeling is more exciting than the mechanics of the how. In fact, the mechanics probably do need to change a lot so that we have something different than what everyone has played before, so we can rekindle that feeling of aw most of us had from EQ.
I personally want people so distracted by the content, that no one is bothering to think about exp. It would help to have hidden exp bars like others suggest, so that we can really say "this isn't a wow clone. This game is about the journey, and the journey will be a long one."
If someone played their first session, and was already thrown into quests, an immersive zone, a town where they didn't know where to go and had to actually figure it out, a community of people who talk to eachother, and despite all of that, they got upset and because they had tons of content and adventure, but never saw "ding, level 2," then I'd question if they'd fit into the kind of world I'm hoping to see in this game.
So many games promise to make a world where you get distracted by the journey and forget to chase levels, but then the levels are so quick and easy, everyone just goes and solos their way to end game in a matter of days. There are many pieces of the puzzle to prevent this, but the easiest cornerstone of a world where the journey matters, is to make each level take a long time, therefor adding extreme value when it actually comes!
I agree with you guys and I thought of something else in regards to the concerns of low level zones population. We see in other games new people enter the game and people roll alts to populate the newbie zones post launch. I understand in some games this population is not enough. I feel Pantheon has an extra system in place that will also help populate levels 1- endgame : their progeny system. We do not know much about this system yet, but we do know "Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character" (taken from the FAQ). I assume this means Brad has implemented a system that increases the leveling population and gives us more to do to make our characters progress in game if we so choose.
Arksien said:There are many pieces of the puzzle to prevent this, but the easiest cornerstone of a world where the journey matters, is to make each level take a long time, therefor adding extreme value when it actually comes!
And this is where all the non-XP related factors come into play, such as travel taking time and appropriately scaled dealth penalties of XP loss and corpse runs, all of which helps slow down the leveling process.
Leveling in EQ was, imo, the best part of the game. Raiding was a great joy in the tier 1 guild on the server, but to me there was nothing like the every day groups with friends as we came up in the world. And that took time, lots of it. I hope we don't lose the opportunity to make great friends and great memories in that way because we're all bumping our heads against the ceiling a month into the game.
For me, it depends on what the game is like in the early levels. If we step into Terminus with nothing but a rusty short sword and no class-defining abilities then the first few levels should go fairly quickly, (like a few hours of grinding each, at most) until we level to a point that classes have meaning and actually fullfill their roles in a group.
Alternatively, if we start the game with some abilities right off the bat, or have the opportunity to train in them without leveling--and if there's already content available that's groupable in nature--then level one could take a week and it wouldn't bother me at all.
Personally, I'd prefer something closer to the latter. It really comes down to whether or not there's stuff to do right at the start.
I think it is fine getting those first couple levels quick to get players to spread out quicker, especially after launch, as long as time to level scales up quickly and exponentially.
And let's be honest, many gamers have very short attention spans These days. With having the game playable for free the first few levels, it would might be wise to give those people just a tiny tiny tiny bit of instant gratification they might be used to, but scale it up exponentially so they get acclimated, or re acclimated for some, to being in it for the long haul.
I know everyone's rage meter is probably rising with me saying words like quick or instant gratification. Im just laying out what I think would be a good way to retrain some people and get them used to things taking time again. I'm not in any way suggesting it remain quick beyond a couple levels.
Kilsin said:Furor said:I'm going to revive this thread... STAND CLEAR! *Paddles*
The reason I'm bringing this thread back is because I am currently playing the newest Everquest Time Locked Progression Server... And the exp is slow... I mean SLOW. While it is still faster than Everquest than it was back in '99 it took over 3 hours of straight mob grinding to get level 3-4. This was a HUGE turn off for so many players returning to EQ after so many years.Now, please do not mistake this as a complaint about the time required to get levels - it isn't. It is just a cautionary tale that when all we can do is /attack and then watch the combat log for 3+ hours straight - it's a nightmare. The lower levels should be relatively fast in comparison to the rest of the game. I would imagine 1-6 should only take 2-3 hours and THEN we start hitting that real world leveling. It simply comes down to the fact that EQ classes start becoming a real class around level 10 (For meele especially!).
@Kilsin please take a look into the forums on Daybreak to see all of the complaints about the slow exp rates and use this as a word of caution.
Now that I'm level 15 it's about 1 - 1.5 hours in a 6 person group to level which is a fine pace. At level 40+ it's over 4 hours a level. Server firsts were done in 114 hours using 25% exp potions the entire time. This is a pretty great leveling timeline EXCEPT for 1-10 because quite frankly there is just nothing fun about /autoattack for 10+hours while we slowly unlock our class abilities.
- Furor
Oh I'm watching and have been since before the launch, watching all the requests and excitement and then all the complaints and requests to change things ;)
I jumped on Ragefire TLP server with a cleric and was lev 50 in 2 weeks. Leveling on EQ is Not slow. And that is with me having a Full time job with 1 hour round trip driving.
I think lev 1-5 on EQ "feels" right but as soon as you hit lev 5 and group at Orc camps in Nek forest, you can be lev 12 in 2-3 hours.
Then you hit Crocs in SRO and you are lev 18 in ONE night.
Then you hit unrest and MM castle and you are lev 31-34 in a couple days.
Then you just hit Lower guk and live there for 5-6 days and your journey is over. and that is WITHOUT exps pots. and you got to see 4 zones for the entire journey.
Low levels should take a good amount of time. I can see lev 1, 2 and 3 taking 2-4 hours each, then slowing.
People just love to complain. They want lev 50 over night so they can go camp spawns and get all the Loots and make lots of plats. No one on EQ TLP should be complaining about the speed of leveling. it's already too fast.
Before Kunark hit on ragefire, I had a lev 50 cleric with full Hate gear and some Sky gear. a Lev 45 Enchanter. a 40 Wizard, a 35 druid, and a 12 warrior.
@Medjai
To be fair Ragefire isn't comparable to EQlaunch leveling curve slow either, so, compared to EQlaunch, Ragefire definitely isn't slow. And, ragefire has multiple instances of overcrowded zones and exp pots, which hastened the leveling curve even more.
But, even still, I'd agree, EQ launch leveling curve wasn't overly brutal, if you had good groups and were trying to actively level.
@raidan
Furor was talking about how slow exps/levels are on ragefire TLP.
He is saying the NEW fast levels are too slow.
I completely disagree. They are too fast. If I can get max level in 2 weeks without exps pots, while only playing after work and some on weekends, The game is broken.
I want to be able to max out my melee skill, defense, school of magic etc, before I get the next level. assuming you need to work on skills in Pantheon. :)
@Medjai
Gotcha - I was mainly referring to your point on "leveling on EQ is not slow," and, not everyone here being familiar with Ragefire and the different changes from EQLaunch.
I also liked being able to max out my skills before obtaining the next level - I always raised all my weapon skills on warrior.
And, I agree with your points on wanting slow progression - I do as well :).
Part of the problem with taking forever to level up is that the standard for games right now is that most of your character's abilities are not available until later levels. It may be Ok the first time through but it becomes tedious if you ever want to make alts. The biggest challenge in these games is making the gameplay experience enjoyable from level 1 to 50 and beyond.
internalprime8 said:Part of the problem with taking forever to level up is that the standard for games right now is that most of your character's abilities are not available until later levels. It may be Ok the first time through but it becomes tedious if you ever want to make alts. The biggest challenge in these games is making the gameplay experience enjoyable from level 1 to 50 and beyond.
See the problem with the standard game right now is that all they do is concentrate on the "End game" there is no thought put into the journey to get to max level...Rift and ESO had actually both made the statement pre launch that the game doesnt even start till max level. That is a problem, that is why leveling in these games is nothing more than a chore, I want my game to start at level 1...I want low level dungeons that I can hunt in and make friends in and spend days or weeks in (Remember how wonderful Crushbone was in EQ). The standard game right now is not what Pantheon is shooting for...we want old school slow leveling kick in the head hard content that will send most current "gamers" home crying to momma. If you give me good content (and I know this team can) starting from level 1 I could not care less how long each level takes
Elrandir said:For me, it depends on what the game is like in the early levels. If we step into Terminus with nothing but a rusty short sword and no class-defining abilities then the first few levels should go fairly quickly, (like a few hours of grinding each, at most) until we level to a point that classes have meaning and actually fullfill their roles in a group.
Alternatively, if we start the game with some abilities right off the bat, or have the opportunity to train in them without leveling--and if there's already content available that's groupable in nature--then level one could take a week and it wouldn't bother me at all.
Personally, I'd prefer something closer to the latter. It really comes down to whether or not there's stuff to do right at the start.
Amen
The key is making the lower levels completely playable ... start the characters with a variety of class-defining abilities available at level 1. Not all, but enough to warrant defined grouping roles. And have a variety of low-level grouping incentives such as harder enemies that require grouping, low-level dungeons, etc.
The problem is, most games today shrug off the low levels with terrible and incomplete skill sets, little to no incentive to group (which promotes the soloing mindset), and dungeons that don't start for 10-20 levels into the game. Man, if Pantheon starts from level 1 with a robust environment for the lower levels that acutally promotes and rewards grouping, I really don't care how long level one should take. My best guess is that level one should take about as much time as it takes to get to level 2.
I always have a difficult time answering this for some reason, because it just seems so weird trying to put a number on something like that. Generally speaking, I feel if they make the game challenging, resist making xp/levels trivial to get, and really make players earn them, the rest should take care of itself.
If I had to put a time frame on it, I'd say getting to level cap (if cap was, say, 50) should take no less than at least 6 months for a steady, active player who spends all their time leveling. Could take up to a year or longer for a more casual player who doesn't spend a lot of time leveling.
I'd like to see stuff happen randomly that could throw a group off and mix things up. Let there be a % chance for a more powerful rare creature to spawn after a certain amount of time, if players are killing the same mobs over and over... something to keep players on their toes and alert.
Not only would it keep players "in the world" more, it would also allow more time for VR to work on new content, etc.
Zaketh said: I forget how long EverQuest took to get to level one but overall I like the pace that it took to get to 50 . I don't mind you taking a long time to reach each level as long as there is enough unique and interesting content so it doesn't seem boring and repetitive.
Orginally it tooks us a very long time to hit 50. I had one of the few 50 necros on our server. Thats when people where paying huge bucks for a high end character. I even had an offer come over a tell, i thought it was some joke but more research said otherwise. I ignored those tells.
But it really was difficult to make 50, and to get to level 12 took a whole week i think back then.
So i am ok with that, but it has to be the same later on too, otherwise we end up with SOE type nerfing of things and it pisses me off.
I would say 2 hours of killing to get to level 2 with it getting progressively harder. That way most people could level during their first play session. I never reached 50 before the cap was raised and it never bothered me. The longer you spend at levels the more friends you make.
I also think the first level doesn't matter as much as the overall curve. And as long as there is stuff to do besides grinding to give me a break, I won't notice the curve as much.
Early on, EQ lacked meaningful quests for lower level characters. While I did most of them anyway, it would be nice to be rewarded appropriately for taking a step away from the grind. Perhaps items gained from early class quests could be used in future quests, that way they are not irrelevant a few levels later.
I'm all for slow leveling but it would be good if leveling wasn't the only thing that people were trying to achieve. Keeping people busy with quests and crafting and general social interaction would reduce peoples desire to level and fast and make them feel more inclined to enjoy the journey. If you don't have any active quests and you are not a crafter all you have left to do is grind out levels. So I feel extra attention need to be placed on secondary goals so that people always feel like they are achieveing things even if the leveling process is very slow.
You wouldn't want your player base to get bored of the grind because they have been sitting in the same zone doing the same stuff for 2 weeks flat out. That is what quests are for. To provide alternative content to do that will give players a chance to explore and discover the world for themselves.
So yeah I'm all for slow leveling just make sure there is stuff to keep people interested so that you don't find yourself grinding out levels in the same zone for weeks on end.
I created a halfling druid on the P99 Classic server to test this out. It took me 20 minutes of killing white con'd mobs(1/2 bubble each). So 10 white con'd mobs took 20 minutes. Now this is obviously from someone who's played the game forever and knew where to go and what to do. So I'd say for a new player, it probably would of taken 30-40 minutes.
I think following this model is a great idea. I think anything more than 45 minutes for the 1st level would be a bit much. After that, there would be a curve and it would get slower as you get closer to level cap, but starting off should be quicker(30ish minutes). But it shouldn't be any faster imo.
Sevens said:internalprime8 said:Part of the problem with taking forever to level up is that the standard for games right now is that most of your character's abilities are not available until later levels. It may be Ok the first time through but it becomes tedious if you ever want to make alts. The biggest challenge in these games is making the gameplay experience enjoyable from level 1 to 50 and beyond.
See the problem with the standard game right now is that all they do is concentrate on the "End game" there is no thought put into the journey to get to max level...Rift and ESO had actually both made the statement pre launch that the game doesnt even start till max level. That is a problem, that is why leveling in these games is nothing more than a chore, I want my game to start at level 1...I want low level dungeons that I can hunt in and make friends in and spend days or weeks in (Remember how wonderful Crushbone was in EQ). The standard game right now is not what Pantheon is shooting for...we want old school slow leveling kick in the head hard content that will send most current "gamers" home crying to momma. If you give me good content (and I know this team can) starting from level 1 I could not care less how long each level takes
Furor said:I'm going to revive this thread... STAND CLEAR! *Paddles*
The reason I'm bringing this thread back is because I am currently playing the newest Everquest Time Locked Progression Server... And the exp is slow... I mean SLOW.- Furor
Medjai said:I jumped on Ragefire TLP server with a cleric and was lev 50 in 2 weeks. Leveling on EQ is Not slow. And that is with me having a Full time job with 1 hour round trip driving.
I think lev 1-5 on EQ "feels" right but as soon as you hit lev 5 and group at Orc camps in Nek forest, you can be lev 12 in 2-3 hours.
Then you hit Crocs in SRO and you are lev 18 in ONE night.
Then you hit unrest and MM castle and you are lev 31-34 in a couple days.
Then you just hit Lower guk and live there for 5-6 days and your journey is over. and that is WITHOUT exps pots. and you got to see 4 zones for the entire journey.
Low levels should take a good amount of time. I can see lev 1, 2 and 3 taking 2-4 hours each, then slowing.
People just love to complain. They want lev 50 over night so they can go camp spawns and get all the Loots and make lots of plats. No one on EQ TLP should be complaining about the speed of leveling. it's already too fast.
Before Kunark hit on ragefire, I had a lev 50 cleric with full Hate gear and some Sky gear. a Lev 45 Enchanter. a 40 Wizard, a 35 druid, and a 12 warrior.
@Medjai
Just for the record I was referring to the Phinigel Timelocked Progression server, NOT Ragefire. The experience is almost 2x as fast on Ragefire. Currently there is a 170% experience bonus on the Phinigel Server for Everquest's 17th anniversary. But when that bonus finishes, please feel free to try leveling up a character without any experience bonuses. (Please also note: Any NEW character is now receiving ~25% experience boost from when the server originally launched)
With that said, the NEW modified experience bonus (Approximately 25% more than the original Phinigel release modifiers) is a fairly appropriate leveling curve.
When Kunark launched I was the server second 60 shadowknight with ~75 hours of leveling. And I mean, pure, nonstop, leveling. I was running a 25% experience potion the entire time, and our group had 6-9 characters outside of the group to assist in killing mobs more quickly. And it still took us 75 hours to level 51-60.
I recall when I started EQ1, it took me proabbly 40-60 minutes of killing trash in West Freeport to get to level 2. Partially because I was still learing, partially because I was running for my life from the Skellies and Orcs that i's agro, and the trips back to Boomba to sell beetle legs, eyes, rat whiskers etc, since I had no backpacks yet.
I think 2-3 and 3-4 went faster as I began to get a grasp on things and a friend who had been playing a couple weeks showed up and gave me some tips and 10 or 15gp (a TON of money to me at the time), so I just focused on killing and not looting trash.
It was several weeks to get to mid teens, and months to my 30's and 40's. everytime I got close to max level, an expansion came out that increased the max.
And I recall the higher level I got the longer it took to level. It was quicker when I was groups with guildies who were higher level and we were hunting zones above my level range, so I was basically just soaking up XP, but most of the time it was me a a couple of regular in-game friends and guildmates that hunted areas appropriate to our level, and often times is was only a 3-4 man group so even that was somewhat slow xp.
It never seemed to bother me that it was slow, I was enjoying the journey. I think the only time it bothered me was the "Hell Levels" and being a hybrid, it was especially frustrating. I had friends we would ding those hell levels closr to the same time and they would ding out of them and I'd still only be 3/4 of the way through.
Furor said:Furor said:I'm going to revive this thread... STAND CLEAR! *Paddles*
The reason I'm bringing this thread back is because I am currently playing the newest Everquest Time Locked Progression Server... And the exp is slow... I mean SLOW.- Furor
Medjai said:I jumped on Ragefire TLP server with a cleric and was lev 50 in 2 weeks. Leveling on EQ is Not slow. And that is with me having a Full time job with 1 hour round trip driving.
I think lev 1-5 on EQ "feels" right but as soon as you hit lev 5 and group at Orc camps in Nek forest, you can be lev 12 in 2-3 hours.
Then you hit Crocs in SRO and you are lev 18 in ONE night.
Then you hit unrest and MM castle and you are lev 31-34 in a couple days.
Then you just hit Lower guk and live there for 5-6 days and your journey is over. and that is WITHOUT exps pots. and you got to see 4 zones for the entire journey.
Low levels should take a good amount of time. I can see lev 1, 2 and 3 taking 2-4 hours each, then slowing.
People just love to complain. They want lev 50 over night so they can go camp spawns and get all the Loots and make lots of plats. No one on EQ TLP should be complaining about the speed of leveling. it's already too fast.
Before Kunark hit on ragefire, I had a lev 50 cleric with full Hate gear and some Sky gear. a Lev 45 Enchanter. a 40 Wizard, a 35 druid, and a 12 warrior.
@Medjai
Just for the record I was referring to the Phinigel Timelocked Progression server, NOT Ragefire. The experience is almost 2x as fast on Ragefire. Currently there is a 170% experience bonus on the Phinigel Server for Everquest's 17th anniversary. But when that bonus finishes, please feel free to try leveling up a character without any experience bonuses. (Please also note: Any NEW character is now receiving ~25% experience boost from when the server originally launched)
With that said, the NEW modified experience bonus (Approximately 25% more than the original Phinigel release modifiers) is a fairly appropriate leveling curve.
When Kunark launched I was the server second 60 shadowknight with ~75 hours of leveling. And I mean, pure, nonstop, leveling. I was running a 25% experience potion the entire time, and our group had 6-9 characters outside of the group to assist in killing mobs more quickly. And it still took us 75 hours to level 51-60.
lol, so you did it in a week? That is EZ mode cheese. A week after an expansion people are hitting the rev limiter and you think that's good progression? That's freaking horrible. 75 hours to go through the 10 longest levels including 65 and 69? It took me 29 DAYS played to get to 50 and I was one of the fastest. Obviously it would be faster a second time around, but come on.
I have never understood the concept of forcing players to level. Every game, no matter how long it takes to level, ends up with everyone at the level-cap. Leveling is just a stall tactic that artificially distributes the player base over a wider map area.
One issue that I have with leveling is that it incorporates planned obsolescence. The game designers create “leveling zones” that become ghost towns when the player base has leveled beyond them.
The explanation that I found particularly distasteful is “you grow into your class.” And the slow reveal of class specific abilities begins, finally culminating in a class-defining ability at the level cap. So, how much growing into your class do you do if your ultimate ability is only given to you AFTER you are done leveling?
Seriously, leveling is only valid for a few months after release anyway. Most characters are now judged by gear score or other loot-based metric. I’m really hoping that Pantheon steps away from the simple level-based progression and implements something a little more interesting.
xtnpd said:I have never understood the concept of forcing players to level. Every game, no matter how long it takes to level, ends up with everyone at the level-cap. Leveling is just a stall tactic that artificially distributes the player base over a wider map area.
One issue that I have with leveling is that it incorporates planned obsolescence. The game designers create “leveling zones” that become ghost towns when the player base has leveled beyond them.
The explanation that I found particularly distasteful is “you grow into your class.” And the slow reveal of class specific abilities begins, finally culminating in a class-defining ability at the level cap. So, how much growing into your class do you do if your ultimate ability is only given to you AFTER you are done leveling?
Seriously, leveling is only valid for a few months after release anyway. Most characters are now judged by gear score or other loot-based metric. I’m really hoping that Pantheon steps away from the simple level-based progression and implements something a little more interesting.
Agreed. To me, hitting max level = game over. Once my character has nothing left to achieve the game becomes excessively boring, quick.
I love slow progression and think moving from level 1 to 2 should take at least 1 hour. Getting to level 10 should take beyond a day. Getting to 20 should take a month or more. The higher your level, the longer it should take. Reaching end level (which I wish there wasn't one) should take years. I never maxed out my levels in Vanguard in crafting and adventuring after 2 years. That was awesome. I always had something to look forward to. I have about 6 character too hehe.
I also hope we can enjoy a use based system to slow things down even further. Just because you raised a level, doesn't mean you are better at everything...Levels are quite boring. We need character development and a slow one at that to make the game last longer and have goals to achieve. I hope there is some serious thought on making slow yet meaningful/fun progression for our characters.
The reason I generally have multiple alts is to keep progression moving slower. It's generally pretty fast in games. That is a mistake.