These days most games skip level one and you ding your way to level 2 in the first 5 minutes of gameplay.
Personally I would like level 1 to be a significant level just like the others.
Maybe even time enough to allow for level 1's to group up and fight together.
At this level combat strategies are simple and its a great time for people to hook up with others from their home areas.
Anyways to answer my own question I would say about 8 hours of gameplay for level 1 is what I would like.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Well that's an unusual point of view Kiz, but one that I can certainly understand. For some folks the journey is the game, while for others its the destination that matters most. Me personally, I like to level up at a fairly brisk pace and like it when the first 20 levels are so are a quick walk or easy jog sort of pace. I want to feel like at the end of 30-40 hours of play that I have a good grasp on the mechanics of my class and then settle in for the hike that it takes to hit level cap. I think its a bit of a mistake to put a game on rails and overstate the end game, it really nullifies a lot of the work the developers put in creating these games and ultimately leaves you with a watered down world. You and I probably have a similar time-frame in mind for how long to get to level cap, but I probably want to get through the first 10-20 levels a little quicker than you do :)
edited because I discovered Mission Brewery's Hard Root Beer tonight. (please drink responsibly, never drink and drive and if you are 21 - stick to barqs kid)
I have stated this a few times but its my firm belief from probably waaaaay to many years of playing varying mmos. Its more about the journey for everyone then they think. And yes I am and end game raider type, but the journey is where you generate the most memories and develop the "investment" into the game. A "DING!" in General/Guild chat should be something that is indeed celebrated, and gets that fist pump. Not just a ho hum ding level 27. A slower curve brings that true sense of accomplishment back to leveling.
As far as how long, 8 hours isnt a bad number figure if the hard cores really work on it and the cap is say level 50 then thats a couple of months for them and 3-6 months for most of us. A perfect number imho as it allows people to enjoy the content and at the same time gives the devs a chance to take a breather and really work on quality content for down the road.
On that note I would say keep each level fairly even. If 1-10 is super fast then why not just make everyone 10 to start? If there is no sense of accomplishment in those dings, then for me I dont understand why they are even in a game. I kinda laugh at games when I am level 10 inside of 2 hours of game play. Why was the effort of programming even put in for that? Odds are I didnt learn much, just killing a few things and running back to trainers
Med, thats good stuff, but very very very dangerous :P ......But on a side note I think from being in these forums from the get go, Kiz's View point is more common then unusual here. A lot of us are hoping to have just that kind of game again.
I liked VG's pace of things in the good ole days before the XP potions and XP enhancing items and gear. I feel the higher you get the harder it should be to gain further levels. I wouldn't mind hell levels too though admitted I don't care a huge amount about that either way. I do want being high level to mean something though and something that's not super easy to attain. I hope that once you get higher up there the achievement system really kicks in assuming that's still going to be implemented.
As a proponent for all things challenging (and time consuming), I can see a potential problem with making lower levels excessively long. You often have very few abilities or options which is often done to gradually introduce a player to their class. I can't say I'd be against extending the leveling process for all levels including the first, but at level 1 a character generally doesn't have all of their class defining abilities. Even in EQ you could do the first 5 levels solo in a day's time. Having people spend several days with a very limited number of spells or skills could be seen as over the top.
Now, if classes start with enough skills to play their role and move into group content out of the gate, I think most people would have no problem with lvl 1 being as slow as the rest.
Jokkel said:
I have stated this a few times but its my firm belief from probably waaaaay to many years of playing varying mmos. Its more about the journey for everyone then they think. And yes I am and end game raider type, but the journey is where you generate the most memories and develop the "investment" into the game. A "DING!" in General/Guild chat should be something that is indeed celebrated, and gets that fist pump. Not just a ho hum ding level 27. A slower curve brings that true sense of accomplishment back to leveling.
As far as how long, 8 hours isnt a bad number figure if the hard cores really work on it and the cap is say level 50 then thats a couple of months for them and 3-6 months for most of us. A perfect number imho as it allows people to enjoy the content and at the same time gives the devs a chance to take a breather and really work on quality content for down the road.
On that note I would say keep each level fairly even. If 1-10 is super fast then why not just make everyone 10 to start? If there is no sense of accomplishment in those dings, then for me I dont understand why they are even in a game. I kinda laugh at games when I am level 10 inside of 2 hours of game play. Why was the effort of programming even put in for that? Odds are I didnt learn much, just killing a few things and running back to trainers
Med, thats good stuff, but very very very dangerous :P ......But on a side note I think from being in these forums from the get go, Kiz's View point is more common then unusual here. A lot of us are hoping to have just that kind of game again.
Quoting because I would only reiterate what Jokkel has posted. The font color change I made is to point out how important those statements are to me, and I believe, to many others.
Very nice post, Jokkel.
*edited for clarity
There must be a journey. Without a journey, the destination loses much of its purpose.
Imagine a game without the journey. Give everyone level 60 from the start and have them work at getting items and raiding. You might as well totally remove levels from such a game.
There would be no difference between anyone and anyone else. Nothing to remember.
Do you really want to play that?
The journey should take some significant time, otherwise it's almost as if there was no journey.
- Let the normal players take 6-9 months to 60.
- Hardcore players should be able to do it in half the time, but not less than half.
- Normal players should reach level 20 in maybe a month or month and a half.
- Level 2 should be reachable in a solid 4 to 6 hours of playing.
- The leveling curve should slow down as the levels go up.
- If you err, err on the side of requiring MORE time, not LESS.
Good question, but I dislike the assumptions that go with it. It's a bit like asking "How big should a box be?"
If we're talking about a game with 50 levels at launch and it's more or less a clone of EQ/VG in that regard, then I'd say make it a slower process rather than quicker. I think there should be a scaling factor where each level takes significantly longer than the last. I'd like to see the player get their first ding in about 3 hrs of play so they can get a feel for the game and have some sense of reward early on. Beyond that, slow it down drastically.
On the other hand, I'd like to see Pantheon break away from the traditional DING! and level different aspects of your character more on "time/frequency using skill" rather than racking up experience to collectively bump a bunch of stats or gain abilities. Save the DING for major events in the story and development arc of your character. Give me a ding when I'm eligible to start a major new quest line or achieve a major tier in my fighting/spell abilities. I like the dings, but make them more meaningful. Simply getting from level 17 to 18 should not be as big a deal as being able to begin the quest for my epic (again falling back to EQ comparisons) or being eligible to begin training in grand master level spells, etc...
In general I think the first level should be achieved in a single casual playing session assuming you know nothing about how the game works, where to hunt and what not. That means probably sub 2 hours for a completely new player who might even be new to the genre. That includes time to explore the starting area and test things out so a skilled knowledgeable player could probably do it in a half hour or less. Beyond that I think the amount of time should be O(n^2) compared to the level or maybe some variation there with in, we could probably make a pretty good power curve via alpha but I am really sure it should not scale linearly with level.
I really hope Pantheon doesn't cater to players that are completely new the genre instead of embracing us old timers with a complex, challenging game.
Kiz~
P.S. I also really like the end of Dullahan's post where he talks about starting with a few abilities instead of just 1 or 2... enough to make it interesting and to be able to fill your role would be great.
I can see why 8 hours at level 1 makes sense- considering an initial players commitment to maybe a hour or two a night, and maybe more during the weekends before they catch the "bug" so to speak. But otherwise, maybe a year to get to mid 20's? and maybe a year and a half to 2 years before an expansion.
The first few levels should be rather quick. If I recall reading one of the blogs or watching an interview lately the first few levels are to get you familiar with the game then after that its into the world on your own. I do not mind if you can get to level 20 within 30-40 hours of game play. There has to be that period where people get acclimated to everything. That doesnt need to be 20 levels it could be the first 10. However after that time period the journey begins.
Personally I prefer for the first 5 levels of the game to be fairly fast. I should be able to get form level 1 to about level 5 within 3 or 4 hours. That is how it was in EQ back in the day. I died 4 times trying to get to level 2 and I LOST xp when I died at level 1. However once I got level 2 things became much easier till about level 7 or 8 depending upon the class. I am speaking from a monk point of view so speed may vary. I hope that Pantheon takes the same approach. Once you get level 2 things become easier for a time as you learn the starting area mobs and begin to push your boundries. Once you ding level 5 it is time to move from the starting area and things begin to get tougher. In the next zone it should take 2 or 3 levels before things become easier and that increases all the time. If you break the game down into sections of the game each section should be about 5 to 10 levels for experience. The more xp possible the longer it should take for someone to get used to the zone. By level 30 each zone should not require acclimation time but should expect the person to have figured out how things work in game and the person should be able to understand the basics of the zone and game. To reach the half way point of max level should take anywhere from 6 months to a year depending upon play style and time invested a week. I am thinking it should take roughly 1200 hours of game time to reach the halfway point because of 30ish deaths and having to regain that lost xp.
I dont disagree that the first few levels are to get you "used" to the game. But really if the starting area is challenging isnt that really getting you acclimated to the game? I mean if they make levels 1-20 easy then all the sudden they get hard and it slows down, its almost like a "bait and switch" Not to mention if the early levels are to easy then there isnt much "getting used to the game". its more like, go out kill a few mobs run back to the trainer, kill a few more, run back to the trainer. You arent really learning to max out and play your toon, you are just accumulating abilities as fast as you can and then you sit back and learn them. Imho if thats how its going to be done I would prefer to just get them at level 1 and let me develop how I will play with them.
Now if you want to say that its easier and more feasible to solo content for those first few levels I can see that as an option. Kinda like killing skeletons outside Queynos till you could start grouping and heading into Blackburrow. Lol and cheer on Good Ol Holly Windstalker as she passed us Tunare followers and mauled everyone else. Seriously though, I would like to see maybe 1-5 like that, then start some serious "nudging" towards grouping as you approach 10. I think most all of the starting areas in EQ had something like that. Be it Blackburrow, Crushbone, etc etc. But keeping leveling fairly even.
Celandor said:
Good question, but I dislike the assumptions that go with it. It's a bit like asking "How big should a box be?"
If we're talking about a game with 50 levels at launch and it's more or less a clone of EQ/VG in that regard, then I'd say make it a slower process rather than quicker. I think there should be a scaling factor where each level takes significantly longer than the last. I'd like to see the player get their first ding in about 3 hrs of play so they can get a feel for the game and have some sense of reward early on. Beyond that, slow it down drastically.
On the other hand, I'd like to see Pantheon break away from the traditional DING! and level different aspects of your character more on "time/frequency using skill" rather than racking up experience to collectively bump a bunch of stats or gain abilities. Save the DING for major events in the story and development arc of your character. Give me a ding when I'm eligible to start a major new quest line or achieve a major tier in my fighting/spell abilities. I like the dings, but make them more meaningful. Simply getting from level 17 to 18 should not be as big a deal as being able to begin the quest for my epic (again falling back to EQ comparisons) or being eligible to begin training in grand master level spells, etc...
I disagree on the ding aspect. I think each "Ding" especially in a long winded leveling curve type game is meaningful. Then you have the milestone "Dings" along the way as well. I think all the games out right now have gone away from the traditional "Ding". Heck in WoW at the moment people level alts in our guild to 100 and I dont even notice. People dont even say "Ding" at 100 because its just a given then days. Pantheon in my opinion would be going back to the traditional ding rather then away from it. Lets face it leveling these days is a joke. Thats just my two cents.
I may be alone in this but I would like to see an experience cap per day in game... So for example you could only earn so much experience per day by killing creatures then have another cap each for exploration, crafting, and questing. This would encourage players to explore all aspects of the game and stopping the stupid race to max level.
Vaildez said:
I may be alone in this but I would like to see an experience cap per day in game... So for example you could only earn so much experience per day by killing creatures then have another cap each for exploration, crafting, and questing. This would encourage players to explore all aspects of the game and stopping the stupid race to max level.
Ugg I would really hate this and I doubt it would ever be implemented in a mmo. After all Pantheon should embrace killing mobs for exp as opposed to doing quest chains.
If I ever stop earning exp and have to quest or craft to keep progressing I would be pissed.
Kiz~
Sogotp said:
Personally I prefer for the first 5 levels of the game to be fairly fast. I should be able to get form level 1 to about level 5 within 3 or 4 hours. That is how it was in EQ back in the day. I died 4 times trying to get to level 2 and I LOST xp when I died at level 1. However once I got level 2 things became much easier till about level 7 or 8 depending upon the class. I am speaking from a monk point of view so speed may vary. I hope that Pantheon takes the same approach. Once you get level 2 things become easier for a time as you learn the starting area mobs and begin to push your boundries. Once you ding level 5 it is time to move from the starting area and things begin to get tougher. In the next zone it should take 2 or 3 levels before things become easier and that increases all the time. If you break the game down into sections of the game each section should be about 5 to 10 levels for experience. The more xp possible the longer it should take for someone to get used to the zone. By level 30 each zone should not require acclimation time but should expect the person to have figured out how things work in game and the person should be able to understand the basics of the zone and game. To reach the half way point of max level should take anywhere from 6 months to a year depending upon play style and time invested a week. I am thinking it should take roughly 1200 hours of game time to reach the halfway point because of 30ish deaths and having to regain that lost xp.
The part where you talk about breaking the game down into 5-10 level chunks I severely disagree. Some of my favorite dungeons and zones spanned huge level gaps... Castle Mistmoore, Guk, Sol B, Trengal Keep, Castle Graystone(VG)was this the name?, and more...
I want to spend weeks not days in these areas and I want to leave and have reasons to come back also... Like now I'm tough enough to head back to Sol B and try my hand at some efreeti boots.
My question to you Sogotp is what if you started at level 1 with the abilities you would normally have by about level 5 and just started playing the game without the weird ding ding ding for the first hour of play ?
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:
Vaildez said:
I may be alone in this but I would like to see an experience cap per day in game... So for example you could only earn so much experience per day by killing creatures then have another cap each for exploration, crafting, and questing. This would encourage players to explore all aspects of the game and stopping the stupid race to max level.
Ugg I would really hate this and I doubt it would ever be implemented in a mmo. After all Pantheon should embrace killing mobs for exp as opposed to doing quest chains.
If I ever stop earning exp and have to quest or craft to keep progressing I would be pissed.
Kiz~
It has been done in an mmo before (to slow player progression because the game wasn't finished) and players did hate it. I also don't want to see a cap and don't care if there is a "race to cap" if people want to do that I don't really care and will play at the pace I like regardless of what anyone else is doing.
On topic, I also prefer the leveling kindof ramp up with it being relatively short for the first few levels. I also think that a lot of people here have very odd expectations for the time it should take to level up (one example someone said was 1 year to hit level 20 out of presumably 50). I don't think I have ever played a game, not even just mmo, that was even remotely that slow to level if you were playing efficiently. People used to say in FFXI that it would take you a year or 2 to hit the level cap but there were reasons for why it took so long and they were not just because of the pace of leveling. If you could group for exp non-stop and in an efficient manner it would take nowhere near that long. I imagine that everquest was something similar (like if you were leveling a twinked alt, it probably took you a fraction of the time to hit level cap that it took you on your first character). Basically I want leveling to be a long and pleasant journey, but not some arbitrary blockade for the sake of being a wall. If leveling is treated as meaningful and meaty content and there are other things players will need and want to do along the way I think that the time will be perfectly sufficient.
In my opinion, games work best with a difficulty curve, not a difficulty brick wall. That being said, level one should be relatively quick and easy, and each level should gradually get longer and more difficult from there. I think from the time a player walks outside and starts attempting to gain xp at level one to the time they ding level 2 (assuming no deaths) should take a maximum of 2 hours. I certainly don't want the new MMO par of 15 minutes to level 2, but people saying it should take 8 hours to a week need to be realistic. Remember that at level one you have very few options available to you both in terms of skills, zones you can hunt in, and monsters you can kill. In EQ level one was spent pretty much killing rats and bats just outside the city gate. Do you really want to spend 8 hours to a week farming bats outside the city gate? Most players will not.
Also, keep in mind that level one is there to get players acquainted with the most basic elements of the game. Once that has been achieved, any additional time or effort it takes to get to level 2 becomes a needless grind. You get to level 2, you get immediately rewarded with "hey, here's some extra HP, some extra stats, and those mobs over there that you had to run away from 15 minutes ago? You can totally kill one now." It gives the player a feeling that they're making some sort of tangible progress in the game. What's more, you reward them with a new ability or two, now they have something new to learn on their way to level 3. Likely the mobs start to get a little more complex as well. And so it goes level by level. The important things are that the player feels they are making progress, and that the player feels they are learning to deal with new challenges as they progress. If an MMO fails to do those two things then the leveling up process feels boring, regardless of what methods it uses (questing, dungeoning, grinding mobs). As an aside, this is one of the reasons it sounds so awesome that the devs of Pantheon want to introduce raid content before max level. I think it's consistent with that idea of giving players new challenges as they level up, rather than saving all the "real" content for the end game.
But as far as level 2 goes, you give them that reward, that taste of accomplishment and new experiences. And then just as level 2 is wearing thin, they're thinking "man, I can't wait to get to level 3 so I can get even more new cool stuff." That's the carrot on a stick in a nutshell, really. But most players will never get there if it takes 8 hours to get that first taste.
