Syrif said:Keno Monster said:How would it be less unique when there are MORE options? Instead all we're going to see are dwarf paladins. How do you stand out when 75% of the class are the same race?
No no, what I am saying is that particular combination of Dwarf Paladin or Human Paladin becomes less unique when it is given to all the others. It also affects lore. I have heard of this happening when WoW allowed Horde to be Paladins and Alliance to be Shamans. From what I read people didn’t like that. Anyway, this is just my take on it (the meaningfulness) and it does make sense to me.
yea that was a crap shoot >.> it is rather odd that only 2 races can be paladins. dark myr are a race created for war and their goddess was one of life. it would make sense for them to have paladins.
also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
Gnomes only have spell casters and rogues available?
This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works.
I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes -- particularly those who are adventurous and wily -- to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.
Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night.
Zuljan said: I couldn’t find the right analogy to explain how much flavor and immersion it adds to a race or class and ultimately the world when they are limited and why exactly, but I think syrif has a great example with the alliance paladin horde shaman. The limited selection just makes decision making more impactful and just helps to bring the world and its living culture feeling come to life in weird immersive roleplaying ways that is hard to explain because that style has really been lost in time with mmos aka theme park smash n grab mmos. Hard to put into words why it felt bad when that WoW class change happened, but it inherently took away the fantastical/immersion escape and instead of forcing us to be immersed in a world we must learn to master, it made it feel like there weren’t rules anymore and all for the sake of community outcry for min maxxing. That forced, hard decision making just gives your character and the world feel like it has more of a tangible identity. That immersion to me is the main reason EQ was so addictive. Felt like a real world DnD. Every decision had consequence. Not being able to travel across the world and just kill whatever/whoever you want in a dungeon or region if you don’t know the factions and city they’re tied to etc, it all ties together with races classes and factions in an organic way. I really miss that feeling. But I empathize with people that don’t understand or think it makes sense its hard to name recent examples and it’s hard to quantify in general. Or maybe people just won’t like it regardless. Time will tell but I was never a geeky kid and EQ wrecked my life with the immersion, so I feel people will appreciate it it’s really hard not to and it’s interesting because this debate was never ever an issue in the community back then, but I think goes to show how much mmos have changed and thus how the gamers expectations for an mmo and it’s design have obviously changed. *takes a smoke from the pipe**
you'd end up having to explain why elfs have paladin powahs because the highjacked a naaru and then dwarfs became in touch with nature because their creators were stone menders but they kind of dabbled in fire, water and wind magic... but not really. while we're at it lets give space goats this powah too because we need more racial diveristy for this class.
Iksar said:stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
Gnomes only have spell casters and rogues available?
This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works.
I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes -- particularly those who are adventurous and wily -- to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.
Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night.
i just can't imagine a gnome that has light radiating from it's body sneaking around XD
Keno Monster said:I tend to agree with the sentiment that restrictions in general don't make much sense. People say they want meaningful choices without having their hands held but turn around and seem to enjoy being put on rails when it comes to race/class selection. This is an actual roleplaying game, unlike the the vast majority of games in the RPG genre. Why can't a gnome lass wake up one morning and decide she wants to become a glorious fighter?
Darch said:Arguing that restricting race/class makes the choice more meaningful can be argued for the exact opposite option too.
Agreed, it's an absurd, illogical argument to suggest that having fewer choices makes them more meaningful. If you can only pick between 2 Paladin races, how is that meaningful compared to being able to pick from 6 or 8.
The mere fact that you have fewer choices is the whole reason it is more meaningful? If everyone can be every class you literally run into more people picking he same race/class selections that have the best passive that they want to go with their play style, or simply put going with the meta, at least most of the time, but with everything being restricted it makes it harder to do so.
And the only reason why it doesn't make sense for people to me is honestly they simply just don't want it that way and feel like they should do what they want aka wanting their hand held and telling them this is okay, the restriction is them telling you we aren't holding hands.
Keno Monster said:I tend to agree with the sentiment that restrictions in general don't make much sense. People say they want meaningful choices without having their hands held but turn around and seem to enjoy being put on rails when it comes to race/class selection. This is an actual roleplaying game, unlike the the vast majority of games in the RPG genre. Why can't a gnome lass wake up one morning and decide she wants to become a glorious fighter?
If it is to be a thing then let it be something players actually have to work to obtain. If someone wants that pen and paper RPG outlier combination, then let them earn it within the lore/world VR has created.
An ogre of Broken Maw doesn't just wake up one day and decide they want to be a righteous cleric. If they even knew what a cleric was beyond myth and somehow also managed to get past the cultural views/indoctrination of their kind, where would they even go to train and who exactly is going to open arms let him in to train in their sacred halls?
If people want these exotic race/class combos then let it be somehow tied into progeny and a deeply involved faction questline with whatever race. Want to be an ogre cleric? Hit the level cap with an ogre in one of the base classes available and max reputation + do a questline with the dwarves, humans, or dark myr and voila: you can make an ogre cleric that starts in said city with a faction level just tolerable enough to function.
Iksar said:stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
But again, this takes away choice from the player and limits roleplaying options. Are we saying in the history of their race not a single one ever wanted to pick up a sword and go be an adventurer? We can spin lore any way we want.
Iksar said:
If people want these exotic race/class combos then let it be somehow tied into progeny and a deeply involved faction questline with whatever race. Want to be an ogre cleric? Hit the level cap with an ogre in one of the base classes available and max reputation + do a questline with the dwarves, humans, or dark myr and voila: you can make an ogre cleric that starts in said city with a faction level just tolerable enough to function.
This seems fair.
Zuljan said: @stellar thedark myr are tricky but I wouldn’t consider her a goddess of life. There were crazy wars and she didn’t want to die so their god gave her the power to create the myr who saved her/them, but then there was another threat, so in another effort to save herself, she transformed them again, and they ended up killing her for it. Her intentions behind the act were always out of survival in my opinion. They are strictly a warrior race from their lore description, who “consider none friend and few as worth for,” so im Not sure they would specifically be a paladin race I don’t see anything in the lore like that.
i'd prefer that dark myr have no paladins, but if i'm selling this idea of having class diversity just for the sake of diversity this is what i'd push, because it's a bit farfetched. life can be associated with water or light. it really depends on the race. brb gotta go home
diversity and class distinctiveness for a reason.
Keno Monster said:Iksar said:stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
But again, this takes away choice from the player and limits roleplaying options. Are we saying in the history of their race not a single one ever wanted to pick up a sword and go be an adventurer? We can spin lore any way we want.
I'm sure in the history of gnomes that are incorporeal beings have never wanted to put on any piece of gear that literally weigh infinitely more than them the comparison would be like human using a car like a backpack. So no I would assume no gnomes ever desired to be a warrior.
Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Iksar said:stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
But again, this takes away choice from the player and limits roleplaying options. Are we saying in the history of their race not a single one ever wanted to pick up a sword and go be an adventurer? We can spin lore any way we want.
I'm sure in the history on gnomes that are incorporeal beings have never wanted to put on any piece of gear that literally weigh infinitely more than them the comparison would be like human using a car like a backpack. So no I would assume no gnomes ever desired to be a warrior.
But they'll pick up short swords and wear studded leather armor? Come on, this is exactly what I'm talking about, you're just spinning the lore however you want and making it into a black or white argument. No Gnome would EVER do that, NEVER. :eyeroll:
Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Iksar said:stellarmind said:also gnomes are the only race that can't play warrior. that makes sense they are incorporeal beings by default. being a creation of light you'd figured they could be priests, paladins yet rogues? why would a incorpereal race have rogues?
There were a couple different factions on the Gnome homeworld, it would make sense that for such a knowledge and arcane based society there would be those that trained in sneaking through the shadows to steal knowledge/spells/etc.
But again, this takes away choice from the player and limits roleplaying options. Are we saying in the history of their race not a single one ever wanted to pick up a sword and go be an adventurer? We can spin lore any way we want.
I'm sure in the history on gnomes that are incorporeal beings have never wanted to put on any piece of gear that literally weigh infinitely more than them the comparison would be like human using a car like a backpack. So no I would assume no gnomes ever desired to be a warrior.
But they'll pick up short swords and wear studded leather armor? Come on, this is exactly what I'm talking about, you're just spinning the lore however you want and making it into a black or white argument. No Gnome would EVER do that, NEVER. :eyeroll:
I'm not the one twisting the lore though you are, your countering the argument of since they can wear leather with studs which is no where near the weight of plated armor that they are able to wear plated armor. Plus no one said anywhere in the game that leather have metal studs in them either. Your doing the same thing everyone else is doing just doing it in the reverse way that I am doing it. That's all I'm seeing.
It's okay I get it you want to be anything that you want to be and that's okay I get it I just don't agree with it or care that you want it that way, and that's fine I'm sure you feel the same way about my PoV, and I'm okay with that let's just agree that we will never agree on this and that will probably never change.
Syrif said:No no, what I am saying is that particular combination of Dwarf Paladin or Human Paladin becomes less unique when it is given to all the others. It also affects lore. I have heard of this happening when WoW allowed Horde to be Paladins and Alliance to be Shamans. From what I read people didn’t like that. Anyway, this is just my take on it (the meaningfulness) and it does make sense to me.
Keno Monster said:Yeah, I don't get it.
Sorry to quote myself but I believe your response is to what I had written. Curious - what don’t you get about it? Those particular race/class combos (dwarf paladin & human paladin) become less unique when the class is given to all the other races. The lore is also affected. That’s the meaningfulness that I believe people are referring to.
i'm definitely not second guessing the devs. the discussion is about race-class distinctiveness. if you can sell me the idea what why this race should have this class or not then sell it! at least iskar justified why gnomes would have rogues and i can agree to it. it's convincing enough.
Syrif said:Syrif said:No no, what I am saying is that particular combination of Dwarf Paladin or Human Paladin becomes less unique when it is given to all the others. It also affects lore. I have heard of this happening when WoW allowed Horde to be Paladins and Alliance to be Shamans. From what I read people didn’t like that. Anyway, this is just my take on it (the meaningfulness) and it does make sense to me.
Keno Monster said:Yeah, I don't get it.
Sorry to quote myself but I believe your response is to what I had written. Curious - what don’t you get about it? Those particular race/class combos (dwarf paladin & human paladin) become less unique when the class is given to all the other races. The lore is also affected. That’s the meaningfulness that I believe people are referring to.
paladin gnomes. yellow lights. heavy plates. maggiiicallll.
Syrif said:Regarding OP:
Nephele - I’m pretty curious. If you could make any specific changes to the matrix right here right now what exactly would they be?
Sorry for the slow reply, I missed this post earlier.
Here's what I think I would change right now for initial character creation, based on my understanding of each race's lore and the class definitions.
Archai - add Summoner as a playable class. Reasoning: Archai are all about attunement with the classical elements. It sort of feels weird that they wouldn't have powerful summoners among their ranks.
Dark Myr - add Paladin, remove Druid. Reasoning: The class definition for Paladin is along the lines of "vengeful cleric" rather than "lawful good holy warrior". Given that, it doesn't make sense to me that Dark Myr can be clerics but not paladins. As for Druids, unless there's some sort of subset of Druid abilities dealing specifically with the sea, this doesn't feel quite right to me either. That said, I'd be down with the idea of Dark Myr druids being "Sea Druids" and getting a different set of abilities to start off with based on that theme - and then they could go on to learn the ways of the land-dwellers.
Dwarf - potentially remove Enchanter. I'd be ok leaving it in if there was a way to make dwarven enchanters feel very different from other race's enchanters at character creation. More runemaster and less finger-wiggler. That kind of thing.
Elf - leave as is. While I'd love to play an elven paladin, that would also mean adding cleric, and I think the elves of Terminus are supposed to be a bit more primal than what we're used to (which is why they can be shamans).
Halfling - potentially add Summoner. I'm going on the theory here that summoner is a more primal type caster, learning through channeling elemental power, and less a "book" caster like wizard and necromancer. As such I could see Haflings being summoners, the same as they can be Druids.
Human - remove Dire Lord and Shaman. What we know of human civilization on Terminus points to them being very... civilized. Dire Lord and Shaman are classes that make more sense coming from a more warlike and frankly barbaric culture. So of all the classes these feel the least like they make sense for humans. Plus, I feel like there should be some things that humans don't get to do, just to get people playing some of the other races more.
Gnome - add Warrior. It doesn't really make sense to me that every other race in the game can be warriors, but gnomes can't. I also think there's room for it in the lore, since Gnomes can also be rogues. They might not be the best or strongest warriors, to be sure, but they probably can make up for it with clever arcanamechanical gadgets and tricks. Again, this is a place where I'd love to see differences in terms of starting abilities and skills base on racial culture.
Ogre - add Ranger. Ogre society is about power, and imposing that power on others to prove your superiority. Mastering the beasts of the wild and using their power to attack your foes makes sense when you think of Ogres a proud, but relatively tribalistic martial culture. Plus, Ogres can already be druids, so it's not a far stretch to allow them to be rangers too.
Skar - remove Monk. The current class definition of monk (discipline, training) is at odds with what we know about Skar culture and society. Alternatively, if Skar monks are allowed, they should be very "dark" berserker-type monks, fueled by an icy, calculating hatred, rather than the hot rage of their warrior brethren. The rest of skar society should think they are absolutely insanely terrifying and go to lengths not to make them angry - which is saying something, considering the Skar more or less hate everyone including each other. But again, doing this would also mean that we could expect skar monks to be vastly different from other monks, at least starting out.
So yeah - I think that's what I would want to change for avaialable combinations at initial character creation. How well that matches up with anyone else's thoughts, I have no idea.
Keno Monster said:How would it be less unique when there are MORE options? Instead all we're going to see are dwarf paladins. How do you stand out when 75% of the class are the same race?
It depends on what you mean by unique. Using the druid class in WoW as an example, it was interesting because for the Horde you HAD to be a Tauren to be a druid and on the alliance side you HAD to be a Night Elf. It added a unique element to that class. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry could grab a sword or axe and be a warrior. But druids were this exclusive club that was limited to those two races. In the case of druids, it also made sense in the lore because druidism was taught through Cenarious, and it made sense that he would be cautious about who to teach these things to. There were dangers associated with practicing druidism.
In the case of paladins in Pantheon, I'm not saying that they need to follow the model of the Druid in WoW. I think it would probably make sense to expand access to paladins, especially with the relationship they have to clerics. But the point is, you can make something more unique by limiting options.
Nephele said:Syrif said:Regarding OP:
Nephele - I’m pretty curious. If you could make any specific changes to the matrix right here right now what exactly would they be?
Sorry for the slow reply, I missed this post earlier.
Here's what I think I would change right now for initial character creation, based on my understanding of each race's lore and the class definitions.
Archai - add Summoner as a playable class. Reasoning: Archai are all about attunement with the classical elements. It sort of feels weird that they wouldn't have powerful summoners among their ranks.
Dark Myr - add Paladin, remove Druid. Reasoning: The class definition for Paladin is along the lines of "vengeful cleric" rather than "lawful good holy warrior". Given that, it doesn't make sense to me that Dark Myr can be clerics but not paladins. As for Druids, unless there's some sort of subset of Druid abilities dealing specifically with the sea, this doesn't feel quite right to me either. That said, I'd be down with the idea of Dark Myr druids being "Sea Druids" and getting a different set of abilities to start off with based on that theme - and then they could go on to learn the ways of the land-dwellers.
Dwarf - potentially remove Enchanter. I'd be ok leaving it in if there was a way to make dwarven enchanters feel very different from other race's enchanters at character creation. More runemaster and less finger-wiggler. That kind of thing.
Elf - leave as is. While I'd love to play an elven paladin, that would also mean adding cleric, and I think the elves of Terminus are supposed to be a bit more primal than what we're used to (which is why they can be shamans).
Halfling - potentially add Summoner. I'm going on the theory here that summoner is a more primal type caster, learning through channeling elemental power, and less a "book" caster like wizard and necromancer. As such I could see Haflings being summoners, the same as they can be Druids.
Human - remove Dire Lord and Shaman. What we know of human civilization on Terminus points to them being very... civilized. Dire Lord and Shaman are classes that make more sense coming from a more warlike and frankly barbaric culture. So of all the classes these feel the least like they make sense for humans. Plus, I feel like there should be some things that humans don't get to do, just to get people playing some of the other races more.
Gnome - add Warrior. It doesn't really make sense to me that every other race in the game can be warriors, but gnomes can't. I also think there's room for it in the lore, since Gnomes can also be rogues. They might not be the best or strongest warriors, to be sure, but they probably can make up for it with clever arcanamechanical gadgets and tricks. Again, this is a place where I'd love to see differences in terms of starting abilities and skills base on racial culture.
Ogre - add Ranger. Ogre society is about power, and imposing that power on others to prove your superiority. Mastering the beasts of the wild and using their power to attack your foes makes sense when you think of Ogres a proud, but relatively tribalistic martial culture. Plus, Ogres can already be druids, so it's not a far stretch to allow them to be rangers too.
Skar - remove Monk. The current class definition of monk (discipline, training) is at odds with what we know about Skar culture and society. Alternatively, if Skar monks are allowed, they should be very "dark" berserker-type monks, fueled by an icy, calculating hatred, rather than the hot rage of their warrior brethren. The rest of skar society should think they are absolutely insanely terrifying and go to lengths not to make them angry - which is saying something, considering the Skar more or less hate everyone including each other. But again, doing this would also mean that we could expect skar monks to be vastly different from other monks, at least starting out.
So yeah - I think that's what I would want to change for avaialable combinations at initial character creation. How well that matches up with anyone else's thoughts, I have no idea.
this is solid reasoning i can buy this.
Nephele said:Syrif said:Regarding OP:
Nephele - I’m pretty curious. If you could make any specific changes to the matrix right here right now what exactly would they be?
Sorry for the slow reply, I missed this post earlier.
Here's what I think I would change right now for initial character creation, based on my understanding of each race's lore and the class definitions...
this is fantastic. I love most of these suggestions. But leave dwarf enchanter, and I'm not sold on gnome warriors.
Losing monk, for an in your face combative martial race makes no sense to me. Nor does Ogre ranger by the classic definition of ranger that most follow. People can make good arguments all day long, and others can make good counter arguments, that's the inherent issue with the restrictions in the first place. As someone else said earlier, we're going in circles amongst ourselves as obviously PROTF is going to have restrictions and VR is gonna do what they want to do with them.