Tigersin said:Nephele said:Here is my personal opinion on the topic.
I generally agree with oneadseven and others that the current matrix of race/class restrictions doesn't feel quite right based on where the game is today. I am in favor of having some race/class restrictions, but based on the lore behind each race, it feels like there are some combinations missing that could make sense given what we know.
I also feel like humans probably shouldn't get to be everything. I would be perfectly ok if humans were to lose access to Dire Lord and Shaman, as examples.
So, what I would like to see is some tweaking to the matrix. This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Just opening up or closing off some options based on the current lore and class definitions. I actually do not think it would be a good idea to remove all restrictions. Not because I worry about people inadvertently putting their characters at a disadvantage, but because of the opposite. I'm expecting races to have a bit more to them than simply having stat modifiers, and I would want to avoid situations where a racial ability (as an example) could vastly overpower a particular class if chosen. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it's a possibility, and the restrictions potentially help prevent those very unbalancing situations from occurring.
As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
From one race to another, I do feel like there should be some stylistic differences between members of the same class, at least starting out. Each race in Terminus has a unique culture and background, and so that should be reflected in the equipment and skills that are provided to members of that race. That's not to say that someone couldn't travel and learn the customs and skills of other cultures - in fact, I think that should be encouraged. But greater diversity in terms of how characters look and behave in combat is a good thing, both for gameplay and immersion. Plus, allowing each race to have cultural styles opens the door for adding additional, meaningful choices for adventurers to pursue at higher levels.
"It doesn't need to be an all or nothing." - but it might. Each of us feels that as long as we are happy with the matrix, it is good. You underestimate the number of opinions. It'll be opened up until every one is happy or it won't be opened up until everyone is happy. You make considerate posts and aren't one to speak for everyone so I know that you're not implying it can be adjusted until just the vocal minority are happy... or that until a few of us are happy.. and we both know that the majority of people haven't and won't be familiar with all of the lore and will want what they want. It might just be an 'all or nothing' thing.
i'll compromise at removing monks, wizards and summoners for dark myr. i'll frown a bit but druids and rogues but they can kind of make sense.
lol <3 Ahem , I mean .. then I hope you getit like that. I can't type on this.
Riahuf22 said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Vandraad said:Nephele said:
The biggest difference here is that the devs have alrdy sorted out the lore of the races, gave definition of the classes and gave you a list of the combinations for everything, and like I said I'm all for race class restrictions and I want it to stay the way that it is. As for basically 95% of the forum topics are mostly about things we don't know or have small ideas of and voice our opinions on them so ideas bounce around and we do a ton of feedback, as for this discussion is alrdy figured out and people want to try to back it better when theirs nothing wrong with it.
it's still pre-alpha and things are subject to change. the reason why we are even talking about this is because we care and want to have some influence. just to clarify, i am also for class restrictions. i just want them to tweak dark myr classes a bit more. no summoners, no wizards, no monks i'll compromise at druids at rogues although i think its a bit wierd. it doesn't make sense for an underwater race created to kill leviathans with largescale warefare in mind to have martial arts, have mastery over earth, fire or wind. i can see arcane, life and death, definitely water and to some extent plants.
I'd like to see dwarf rangers, I don't understand why they can be rouges but not rangers, I'm sure a dwarf could pet a few panthers and snuggle with a few bears.
From the lore i've seen about dwarves they dont sound much like the rogue type at all, I think ranger fits them much better.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Vandraad said:Nephele said:
The biggest difference here is that the devs have alrdy sorted out the lore of the races, gave definition of the classes and gave you a list of the combinations for everything, and like I said I'm all for race class restrictions and I want it to stay the way that it is. As for basically 95% of the forum topics are mostly about things we don't know or have small ideas of and voice our opinions on them so ideas bounce around and we do a ton of feedback, as for this discussion is alrdy figured out and people want to try to back it better when theirs nothing wrong with it.
it's still pre-alpha and things are subject to change. the reason why we are even talking about this is because we care and want to have some influence. just to clarify, i am also for class restrictions. i just want them to tweak dark myr classes a bit more. no summoners, no wizards, no monks i'll compromise at druids at rogues although i think its a bit wierd. it doesn't make sense for an underwater race created to kill leviathans with largescale warefare in mind to have martial arts, have mastery over earth, fire or wind. i can see arcane, life and death, definitely water and to some extent plants.
Well I see your point t but think of it this way if they aren't going to be those things and your playing on a PVP server who would be those classes on the evil races, I mean I see to me
Human, arancai, elves
Drawf, gnome, halflings
Dark myr, ogre, skar
I mean I could be wrong on this analyst but I'm sure the "evil" races are pretty obvious who would be on them, and I'm pretty sure th ogres and skar are very limiting on the casters category and if you take it away from the dark myr than ultimates you hurt that entire faction
Kellie said:I'd like to see dwarf rangers, I don't understand why they can be rouges but not rangers, I'm sure a dwarf could pet a few panthers and snuggle with a few bears.
Ah, now I don’t think it gets cuter than a Dwarf snuggling with a few bears. =) Not a bad combo indeed, but Coldark Dwarves look to be their own race of Dwarf. Will be very interesting to see what comes of these Dwarves for sure.
I like the pug pic btw.
Nephele said:Essentially, the debate was about the fact that based on what we know right now, not every race can be every class - and many races don't even have some roles available to them at all. Gnomes, for example, have no tank classes. Ogres have no "dps" or "control" classes in the list currently.
Is that really something you can justify with the lore? Does it make sense that a Dark Myr, who could be a cleric, could not be a paladin? Does it make sense that gnomes can be rogues, but not warriors? Or that Archai can become wizards but not summoners?
I wanted to throw some things out and see if we could get a community discussion going about this. The info we have from the website is almost 3 years old, and the class definitions and their ability lists have been dramatically refined in that time as the game has developed. Maybe it's time to take another look at this topic and see if there's a general consenus on what "feels" right for Pantheon.
I think things are fine as they are.
I've said it before: Being any race/class generally works within pen and paper roleplaying/D&D games because you and your party are/can be outliers in the world with whatever backstory one wants to create to explain how/why (the unique ogre wizard that went against cultural norms and left their people etc) and your existence doesn't conflict with or break down the lore of any given setting (most of the time anyway). This does not hold true in an MMO setting where we are told who and what the ogres of Broken Maw are (or any other race) and each player starts as a member of that society, born and raised. Maybe progeny will open up exotic race/class options but I don't see the argument for all/all, it break the lore and feel/story of the world to me.
So it's entirely possible I would imagine that a Dark Myr could be a paladin, but not a player character starting in Syronai's Rest where their society would *likely* find it heretical and gravely insulting for one to denouce the dogma of their clerics given how devoted and reverent this specific race is toward Syronai. Gnome can be rogues but not warriors because it's about slight of hand more than brute power, they can't wield the heavy armors and weapons, they lack the strength. Archai could well be Summoners but again it would be against their lore and who they are as a people, having been created from a race of pure magical energy and bred as slaves. It would be very twisted for them to turn and then pull these other pure-mana entities across space and time to bind them to their will and use them as slaves.
Also, just because other classes exist in the world doesn't necessarily mean the secrets would be shared between each race, this is still a very young world where many of the races haven't even been around for more than a few hundred years and many have strong tensions or general xenophobia for one another and vast distances between. Also it doesn't mean that every race would even be able to perform different magic. Racial ability to harness different magic could very well be something innate within their race, locked or unlocked by the gods. It seems possible to me that Gnome might not be able to be cleric or harness divine magic at all given they seem to be an atheist society.
Kellie said:I'd like to see dwarf rangers, I don't understand why they can be rouges but not rangers, I'm sure a dwarf could pet a few panthers and snuggle with a few bears.
From the lore i've seen about dwarves they dont sound much like the rogue type at all, I think ranger fits them much better.
this is a minor tweak i agree with. rangers should be a staple in a very old frost dwarven society isolated from everyone else so constantly hunting and surverying the land should be a staple. usually rogues are for espionage purposes. i can understand that based on the lore with the triarchy they have going on.
Nephele said:So, I recognize the fact that I have a different perspective from probably 90% or more of MMO players: I believe that these are virtual worlds where we get to have fun and interesting adventures, while the vast majority of people, even in this community, seem to look at them as games to be conquered in the most efficient manner possible. I can't really change people's playstyles, but I will say that it's been my experience in 20 years of MMOs that the people who really make the communities memorable are the ones who are willing to think about their characters and the world as far more than simply a collection of numbers. I will always support goals of the roleplayers, the socializers, and the people who like to take things at their own pace and aren't in a rush to beat everything, because honestly they're the kind of people that we need more of in these games. We may have been conditioned by years of chasing shiny carrots to want to get to them as fast and efficiently as possible but when we do that, we miss everything else that the medium has to offer. Consider this my small act of rebellion against conventional MMO wisdom.
So to answer your question: Yes, I would, if it was a roleplay concept I wanted to have some fun with. It might not be my main, but if it's something I could do that would be a fun challenge, or better yet, get some other players to realize that it's ok to NOT be super efficient all the time if you do it in a fun way, then absolutely.
And to answer the corollary you didn't ask: If I saw someone playing that ogre wizard, and really roleplaying it well and having fun with it, I'd totally bring them along on a group. Even if they weren't as efficient or as effective as a different character might have been. Because I believe it is the adventure we have and the story we create that really matters, not how fast we were able to beat things.
Brilliant post. Pantheon is supposed to be a world more than a game and you have a tendency to see the forest for the trees.
Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
I think this would be an ideal compromise and exemplifies what "meaningful choice" is all about.
Riahuf22 said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Vandraad said:Nephele said:
The biggest difference here is that the devs have alrdy sorted out the lore of the races, gave definition of the classes and gave you a list of the combinations for everything, and like I said I'm all for race class restrictions and I want it to stay the way that it is. As for basically 95% of the forum topics are mostly about things we don't know or have small ideas of and voice our opinions on them so ideas bounce around and we do a ton of feedback, as for this discussion is alrdy figured out and people want to try to back it better when theirs nothing wrong with it.
it's still pre-alpha and things are subject to change. the reason why we are even talking about this is because we care and want to have some influence. just to clarify, i am also for class restrictions. i just want them to tweak dark myr classes a bit more. no summoners, no wizards, no monks i'll compromise at druids at rogues although i think its a bit wierd. it doesn't make sense for an underwater race created to kill leviathans with largescale warefare in mind to have martial arts, have mastery over earth, fire or wind. i can see arcane, life and death, definitely water and to some extent plants.
Well I see your point t but think of it this way if they aren't going to be those things and your playing on a PVP server who would be those classes on the evil races, I mean I see to me
Human, arancai, elves
Drawf, gnome, halflings
Dark myr, ogre, skar
I mean I could be wrong on this analyst but I'm sure the "evil" races are pretty obvious who would be on them, and I'm pretty sure th ogres and skar are very limiting on the casters category and if you take it away from the dark myr than ultimates you hurt that entire faction
it'll be eh if they factioned off the races. i'm thinking more open world without the limitation of race to dictate association. the lore is very broad in the context and really doesn't draw battle lines between races. if anything it just highlights the internal struggles they have.
oh to clarify PvP, i'm hoping it's like BDO where even if someone of my same race interrupts my camp or rotation, i can kill him. it always annoyed me back in classic wow when i was grinding a spot for hours and someone with the same faction interrupted my rotation and i couldn't defend it.
Could be true, but I'm sure with PVP they won't split it in half in a open world game as a three way split functions a ton better, and because of that I draw my conclusion, and from there I put them in their respective spots, and from their I gave my response to your comment.
And if you look at it clearly it would literally fill like very role but ranger/paladin in that split for evil races and shaman/direlord/monk for the short race and the other getting all of them but I'm sure to even it out the humans will probably have meh stats to compensate the fact he can. Not saying that the way it's going to be just saying it defentlally fills a huge amount of roles the way the dark myr are now the way they are if they do go that route.
Riahuf22 said:Could be true, but I'm sure with PVP they won't split it in half in a open world game as a three way split functions a ton better, and because of that I draw my conclusion, and from there I put them in their respective spots, and from their I gave my response to your comment.
And if you look at it clearly it would literally fill like very role but bard in that split for evil races not saying that the way it's going to be just saying it defentlally fills a huge amount of roles the way the dark myr are now the way they are if they do go that route.
that is a legit approach i can see happening
here's my take: since vr has stated that pvp isn't the focus, i think they are going to keep it completely open to player who they faction up with. anyways i'm violating some guidelines by derailing the thread. it's pretty bad that i know the rules of the forums >.> i'm a habitual rule breaker.
Zuljan said: Everyone makes great, cogent reasoning/points. I really love Iksars post it better put into perspective some examples of the lore I needed to re read to be able to explain how the lore (in every example I’ve seen from gnome rogue and warrior to dark myr paladins) very reasonable arguments can be made as to why those races could potentially be restricted from certain classes as explain by Iksar. Dwarfen rangers too would not make much sense according to lore and topography; freezing freezing cold up in the mountains where little to know wild life and game/forestry land stalking skills/archery would take place (have you ever tried to bow shoot live game in the snow/wind? There are very little facets to nature “as we know it in terminus” for dwarves in their current lifestyle in this post war era (this could change down the line according to how the storyline and racial interactions unfold in game they VR devs did say these class race rolls could open up or change which could be written/coded in easily similarly to the progeny system they have in mind). Could definitely see a dwarf using a bow at times, but the prowess and specific bonds with nature (which the elven god is literally a part of) could definitely explain why dwarves would not be proficient rangers. An anology that comes mind here is; how would human growing up in a forest hunting his/her whole life compare to someone having grown up in Antarctica? Not only would their skillets be different, they would morphologically develop/evolve differently over years and I think it’s hard to argue that the forest human would be a better teach to someone trying to survive in the wilderness than someone who only knows the mountains and bitter cold snow etc.
hm... i guess i'm getting the definition of huntsman, ranger and scout a bit blurred. i can see your point of view here. colder climates = more fat for insulation. tropical climate = lean for more dispersion of heat. all the more reason a fish person doesn't use fireballs!
Zuljan said: @stellarmind (phone won’t let me quote comments sorry) I think your vision of a huntsman/scoutsman would make perfect sense if the world was opened up a little more (ie middle earth lotr), where dwarves, elves, humans every race basically has free roam over the earth, so it would make perfect sense for a dwarf to be a proficient ranger in that world. Also to your defense Most games and books we read are set up a little more like middle earth, so we are used to seeing things like maybe a dwarven hunter (Gimlee in my opinion could be considered a subclass ranger by the end of lotr, I mean he got so good at sneaking I don’t think he was ever the reason they got caught or were revealed, and he had to adjust to long distance running too which he admitted dwarves never do): devs said That could happen in terminus down the road so who knows. Glad you’re open minded and see the possibilities/explanations though. But believe me I’m with you a lot can be argued both ways
one thing that can't be argued with: i need to go poop brb. taco bell steal a game steal a taco is killer.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that restrictions in general don't make much sense. People say they want meaningful choices without having their hands held but turn around and seem to enjoy being put on rails when it comes to race/class selection. This is an actual roleplaying game, unlike the the vast majority of games in the RPG genre. Why can't a gnome lass wake up one morning and decide she wants to become a glorious fighter?
Darch said:Arguing that restricting race/class makes the choice more meaningful can be argued for the exact opposite option too.
Agreed, it's an absurd, illogical argument to suggest that having fewer choices makes them more meaningful. If you can only pick between 2 Paladin races, how is that meaningful compared to being able to pick from 6 or 8.
Keno Monster said:I tend to agree with the sentiment that restrictions in general don't make much sense. People say they want meaningful choices without having their hands held but turn around and seem to enjoy being put on rails when it comes to race/class selection. This is an actual roleplaying game, unlike the the vast majority of games in the RPG genre. Why can't a gnome lass wake up one morning and decide she wants to become a glorious fighter?
Darch said:Arguing that restricting race/class makes the choice more meaningful can be argued for the exact opposite option too.
Agreed, it's an absurd, illogical argument to suggest that having fewer choices makes them more meaningful. If you can only pick between 2 Paladin races, how is that meaningful compared to being able to pick from 6 or 8.
I see, but problem is then if you have Paladins running around all over and start seeing many races being able to play a Paladin then all of a sudden the unique experience of being the Dwarf Paladin is lost and less meaningful in that sense. At least that’s my take on what people mean.
Syrif said:Keno Monster said:I tend to agree with the sentiment that restrictions in general don't make much sense. People say they want meaningful choices without having their hands held but turn around and seem to enjoy being put on rails when it comes to race/class selection. This is an actual roleplaying game, unlike the the vast majority of games in the RPG genre. Why can't a gnome lass wake up one morning and decide she wants to become a glorious fighter?
Darch said:Arguing that restricting race/class makes the choice more meaningful can be argued for the exact opposite option too.
Agreed, it's an absurd, illogical argument to suggest that having fewer choices makes them more meaningful. If you can only pick between 2 Paladin races, how is that meaningful compared to being able to pick from 6 or 8.
I see, but problem is then if you have Paladins running around all over and start seeing many races being able to play a Paladin then all of a sudden the unique experience of being the Dwarf Paladin is lost and less meaningful in that sense. At least that’s my take on what people mean.
How would it be less unique when there are MORE options? Instead all we're going to see are dwarf paladins. How do you stand out when 75% of the class are the same race?
Keno Monster said:How would it be less unique when there are MORE options? Instead all we're going to see are dwarf paladins. How do you stand out when 75% of the class are the same race?
No no, what I am saying is that particular combination of Dwarf Paladin or Human Paladin becomes less unique when it is given to all the others. It also affects lore. I have heard of this happening when WoW allowed Horde to be Paladins and Alliance to be Shamans. From what I read people didn’t like that. Anyway, this is just my take on it (the meaningfulness) and it does make sense to me.
Darch said:@Syrjf, the dwarf paladin is instantly less unique because you only have a 50% chance to not look like (and be a cookie cut) of every other paladin you see. (Maybe your hair will be a different color...
The same argument can just as easily be made that ‘all dwarf appearances are just going to be cookie cuts of each other’ so why make a dwarf lol. That’s just silly :P