Riahuf22 said:You realize when eq first came out ogre and trolls (the best tanks at the time) were actually the least played races when eq first came out, it only became what your saying once the content was completely figured out and everything else that comes with the game being 20 years old, but it defiantly wasn't that way at the beginning, so huh I guess I debunked that theory of your didn't i?
I get what you're saying but it actually contradicts your previous argument on how race/class restrictions mitigate min/maxing. You implied that a lack of restrictions causes min/maxing but you're now acknowledging that it's actually a result of players "figuring everything out." Players are always going to "chase the meta" and the only thing that will stall them is adding more possibilities, more layers, more variance, and more situational viability. (This extends well beyond creating a variety of meaningful racial bonuses. It's equally important to create a world with depth and variance so that each option has a chance to shine. At that point, decisions would be made based on player preference or playstyle.) EQ obviously didn't have that which is why "Min/Maxing Race/Class" choice in EQ can be broken down with very little effort. It's so barebones and simple that it barely allows for any variance at all. The choice is either super obvious or it doesn't matter.
Nephele said:Tigersin said:Nephele said:Is this really true though? The Dark Myr fought in the Deicide War (all the races did). They've been on Terminus for long enough to build a city (at least partially on land). Can we truly say they have no knowledge of the undead, or that there are no undead on Reignfall?
Plus, we should also keep in mind that there were planar collisions that predated the arrival of the Six. There were fallen civilizations, or remnants of them, present on Terminus when all of the playable races alive. The Six were not the first.
So I'm not sure I agree on your take on the lore here. I think you're making an assumption based on the origin/arrival story of the Dark Myr, but you're not taking into account what may have happened between then and now.
Neph is right about the Deicide War and the time they've spent on Terminus. I just want to add that the six is more than six.
Just for clarity, I corrected my post slightly after you quoted this. Some races actually arrived after the Deicide War. The Dark Myr were definitely there though.
I just think we need to be careful about assuming that the entire history of Terminus, before, during, and after the first age of collisions, has been revealed to us.
Yea, I was thinking that as well. Zuljan has gotten pretty much every fact about the history of the Mry completely backwards. But even if you assume the Myr hadn't encountered the undead, I still think you could make a good argument for there being Mry paladins. The threat of and opportunity for vengance against the Nytherian Red could easily serve as a substitute for the motivation to fight the undead. And while you could argue that the anti-undead spells indicates that their primary foe should be the undead, clerics also have anti-undead abilities. If Dark Mry clerics have those abilities, there shouln't be an issue with Dark Mry paladins having them as well. Ultimately, I don't see why you couldn't just say "yes, battling the undead is part of the Dark Mry paladin thing, but the motivation for their decision to focus on battle over healing was this other group".
Tigersin said:Well I don't know how many mmos you've made but I have made none and I don't have players. Here's my last attempt (yes, really). I don't go to my grocery store and feel like my favorite cereal is actually my 2nd favorite because I would like it if a non-existant flavor was available. I just buy the one I like the best. If I don't want cereal, I don't buy it.
A better analogy would be going to the grocery store and seeing a box of life cereal sitting next to a jar of cinnamon. Cinnamon life sounds mighty delicious to you but that flavor simply doesn't exist, for whatever reason. It's impossible for you to simply buy both ingredients and mix them together on your own because you're being puppeteered and rendered incapable of independent thought. You could try to recommend that Quaker should make Cinnamon Life but a fellow customer will be quick to ask you whether or not you're qualified to think of such an exotic combination. They recommend settling for the regular Life cereal and then walk away.
zoltar said:Yea, I was thinking that as well. Zuljan has gotten pretty much every fact about the history of the Mry completely backwards. But even if you assume the Myr hadn't encountered the undead, I still think you could make a good argument for there being Mry paladins. The threat of and opportunity for vengance against the Nytherian Red could easily serve as a substitute for the undead in the motivations of Mry paladins. And while you could argue that the anti-undead spells indicates that their primary foe should be the undead, clerics also have anti-undead abilities. If Dark Mry clerics have those abilities, there shouln't be an issue with Dark Mry paladins having them as well. Ultimately, I don't see why you couldn't just say "yes, battling the undead is part of the Dark Mry paladin thing, but the motivation for their decision to focus on battle over healing was this other group".
Forgetting undead (again), I'm not disagreeing with the part about Nytherian Red, only questioning. Are they vengeful toward them?
Tigersin said:zoltar said:Yea, I was thinking that as well. Zuljan has gotten pretty much every fact about the history of the Mry completely backwards. But even if you assume the Myr hadn't encountered the undead, I still think you could make a good argument for there being Mry paladins. The threat of and opportunity for vengance against the Nytherian Red could easily serve as a substitute for the undead in the motivations of Mry paladins. And while you could argue that the anti-undead spells indicates that their primary foe should be the undead, clerics also have anti-undead abilities. If Dark Mry clerics have those abilities, there shouln't be an issue with Dark Mry paladins having them as well. Ultimately, I don't see why you couldn't just say "yes, battling the undead is part of the Dark Mry paladin thing, but the motivation for their decision to focus on battle over healing was this other group".
Forgetting undead (again), I'm not disagreeing with the part about Nytherian Red, only questioning. Are they vengeful toward them?
Here's a quote from the Dark Mry lore page
Many say the cries of anguish loosed that day still linger in the murky waters. The agony of losing Syronai poisoned the Myr hearts as had the deadly oceans, sorrow twisting into bitterness, then hate, until darkness consumed them. The Nythirian Red disappeared into the sea, searching for the means to return to true Myr form. Their brethren were left to pick up the fragments of their past, hoping to fuse them into a future.
I mean, the Nythirian Red murdered their most sacred goddess. This caused the Dark Mry to be consumed by hatred. So yeah, I'd say they are vengeful towards the NR.
I've read that in a different way but I will consider your point of view! At any rate, it doesn't say they're vengeful toward them. It just calls the Red a villain. This is why I don't see them as Paladins.
In the present Frail Age, the Dark Myr are seeking to claim the old glories of Issul. They have subdued their realm of the ocean and built a glorious city in honor of Syronai. Yet beneath the surface of splendor, there is an unsettling current that runs through the deep places, where the Dark Myr have descended like the ancient leviathans they were born to destroy.
also
A vast disdain for other races lurks beneath their tranquil surface, calling none friend and few honored as foe...Dark Myr ambitions are a pregnant mystery, their kingdom quietly advancing on land and sea.
Maybe there'd be something there if it turns out there is an order of the Dark Myr who seek out the Red but...they seem to be more of the mourning type.
Yet the fateful day of their arrival is marked by mourning, one week prior and one week after. Among the ceremony is a reading from “The Day of Testimonies” a collection of witness accounts to the lamentable day.
And finally, it claims that Ermos and Terminus took all their love.
That Thing we call Ermos, he and his world Terminus gouged us of all we love, turning even the waters against us
btw: I love trying to figure out the dark myr.. by far the most mysterious race for my mind
Tigersin said:I've read that in a different way but I will consider your point of view! At any rate, it doesn't say they're vengeful toward them. It just calls the Red a villain. This is why I don't see them as Paladins.
In the present Frail Age, the Dark Myr are seeking to claim the old glories of Issul. They have subdued their realm of the ocean and built a glorious city in honor of Syronai. Yet beneath the surface of splendor, there is an unsettling current that runs through the deep places, where the Dark Myr have descended like the ancient leviathans they were born to destroy.
also
A vast disdain for other races lurks beneath their tranquil surface, calling none friend and few honored as foe...Dark Myr ambitions are a pregnant mystery, their kingdom quietly advancing on land and sea.
Maybe there'd be something there if it turns out there is an order of the Dark Myr who seek out the Red but...they seem to be more of the mourning type.
Yet the fateful day of their arrival is marked by mourning, one week prior and one week after. Among the ceremony is a reading from “The Day of Testimonies” a collection of witness accounts to the lamentable day.
And finally, it claims that Ermos and Terminus took all their love.
That Thing we call Ermos, he and his world Terminus gouged us of all we love, turning even the waters against us
btw: I love trying to figure out the dark myr.. by far the most mysterious race for my mind
A few things...
Keep in mind that text is a general description of all dark myr. Of course they're going to have a lot of stuff going on as a race that doesn't have to do with the Nythirian Red, just as the entirity of Human and Dwarf socieity isn't completley fixated on the undead threat.
The fact that it isn't explicitly stated that some Dark Mry are actively seeking out the Nythirian Red doesn't mean that they aren't doing just that. But even if not, does it matter? I don't see much difference in "I'm taking up this sword and training in combat so that when the NR show up, I can kill them" and "I'm taking up this sword and I'm going to go find them and kill them". At least not in terms of the motivation, decisions, and overall character arc of a hypothetical Mry cleric turned paladin.
Also, I don't see what the fact that they take time to mourn their losses on the aniversary has to do with being vengeful. They can they be more than one thing and feel more than one emotion. And the end of the day, mourning the loss of Syronai probably fuels their vengful attitude even more.
As far as Ermos goes, I'm pretty sure that Ermos is just the Sun serving as a focal point for their hatred of the sum total of the circumstances they were put into. But I don't think it really lessens their hatred of the Nythirian Red.
oneADseven said:Brad said he is interested in making worlds instead of games. I personally do not think that Terminus should be a world where 8/9 races are subjected to insurmountable stereotyping. We can cite lore and history all we want but when it comes time to actually having a home in this virtual world, we'll be constantly reminded that it's reasonable to look at each race (except human) and truly believe that they are incapable of independent thought as it relates to how they adventure.
The problem you have is that you constantly confuse the player and the player's character . This makes you to try to force a square peg in a round hole and be surprised that it doesn't work . Of course that every RPG is subjected to insurmountable stereotyping , how could it be otherwise ?
If you design an RPG game with 3 parameters defining all PC abilities and each parameter can have 3 values then you obtain very exactly 27 different combinations . Not one more and not one less . The game will have 27 stereotypes and if you want to play it , your PC will necessarily belong to one of the 27 stereotypes . And yes , you the player , will be constantly reminded that there is no escape from that ingame reality . Like Stellarmind rightly said the only freedom that is available to you , the player , is not to play the game if you don't like the idea of 27 stereotypes . Whether the basic 27 stereotypes are farther grouped in meta stereotypes called "races" , "classes" , "cultures" , "species" etc is totally irrelevant to the existence of the matrix discussed here .
If one of the parameters is called intelligence and the designers decide that INT=1 means "dumb" , INT=2 means "average" and INT=3 means "genius" , then if somebody creates an Ogre with INT=1 (f.ex because the lore says that the Ogres have small frontal lobes which define the value of this parameter) then this Ogre is by definition dumb . In the game world this is not just a word , it has consequences . If a dumb Ogre wants to do magics then his manapool will be enough to light a candle but not enough to fight a Lich . Obviously if he (the PC!) goes out and attacks a Lich with magics , he'll die what will prove à posteriori that he was indeed dumb . Everything is consistent and logical . Now of course the player who is not necessarily as dumb as the Ogre he created is free to order his dumb Ogre to fight a Lich with magics over and over . Perhaps he is a sadist or finds dying is fun :) But he will be constantly reminded that it is really reasonable to expect that the Ogre (the PC , not the player) will always die by design .
Finally the Pantheon matrix defines 52 stereotypes . It could be less but it cannot be more than 126 . Does the number of stereotypes impact in any way the player's freedom to adventure as he wants with one of the allowed 52 stereotypes ? Absolutely not . What they do impact , again by design , is the ability of the PC stereotype to achieve some results that the player would have liked to achieve like f.ex kiling a Lich by magics with a dumb Ogre . But as EQ rightly said , "You are in our world now" and this world is a world of stereotypes where the "field of possibles" of the PCs is necessarily (much) smaller than the "field of possibles" of the player . Could it be larger ? Sure , but the developpers will always have to fix a number one day and there will always be somebody who will say that it is too small or too big .
I spent years roleplaying and understand the difference between being in-character (IC) and out-of-character ((OOC)) -- my point was based on the idea that my character would have to legitimately believe that it would not be possible to put down his sword and shield and instead beat on war drums such as a bard could. Suggesting that my character would have to be ignorant of the "game parameters" isn't accurate because he would clearly be interacting with bards of other races throughout the course of his adventure.
It ultimately comes down to willing suspension of disbelief -- it's a natural part of roleplaying and every player will have a different tolerance level of how many "game parameters" they are willing to ignore. For example, it's common for a roleplayer to ignore on-screen information that informs them what class/level another player is. It's broadly accepted that this kind of information is viewed as a UI-based game parameter and many roleplayers will purposely disable this information when possible for the sake of entertainment.
For me, it is less plausible to ignore the reality of race/class restrictions for the sake of entertainment as it has nothing to do with information being presented through UI. It's not a matter of ignoring ((OOC)) chat or numbers/letters floating above a character's head. It's actively roleplaying a character that is incapable of independent thought as it relates to "breaking the matrix." It would be impossible for my character to ever consider the notion of an Ogre Bard because there is no plausible reason as to why they should not be able to exist in a high fantasy setting.
Roleplaying is much different than watching a film because it allows the "audience" to get involved with the creative process of storytelling. When people watch horror movies they generally understand that they are watching a staged performance for the sake of entertainment. They know that the animal that just had its head blown off on screen didn't actually die (there are usually disclaimers) and that the little girl didn't literally have her eyes sucked out by a giant mosquito. We understand that while our eyes may only see black and white in an older movie, our imagination is filled with color.
Roleplaying a character and being able to ignore floating numbers/letters is easy enough to do because it's plausible that those things wouldn't actually exist if you were walking around in your character's shoes. It's easy to ignore chatboxes and tooltips. It's easy to ignore a wide array of game parameters because there is no plausible reason to believe that they should actually exist. Race/Class restrictions are the opposite of that. Those are an imposed/artificial restriction and are much more difficult to ignore because there is no plausible reason that an ogre wouldn't be capable of laying down their sword and shield in favor of a lute.
Even with all game UI disabled, characters would still understand the adventuring roles that they interact with and there is no logical reason to believe that they should be prevented from pursuing a different profession. Trying to roleplay a character that is incapable of processing why this restriction is in place would shatter the matrix, for me. I can ignore HP bars because I understand that having fireballs shot at me hurts and that if I don't do something about it, I'll die. As I mentioned previously, suggesting that these race/class restrictions are justified by lore is equivalent to saying that Terminus is a world where every character is expected to truly believe that the lore-imposed stereotypes are not only plausible, they are actually an unwavering truth. It's not the same thing as ignoring someone say "pass the cheetos" during a DND session. It's saying that dwarves and humans are the only two races that can possibly embody the values of a paladin; being led by conviction, devoting themselves to the study of arms and armor, and being driven by an unquenchable hatred of Undeath. I find that extremely hard to believe (IC & OOC) and think it's antithetical to what roleplaying in an open world is all about. It's an implausible rail that stunts the creative expression that is inherently attached to the joy of creating and then roleplaying a character.
I understand that EQ used "You're in our world now" as a catch phrase. I wasn't aware that it was adopted by Pantheon. I preferred "Welcome Home."
The fact that it isn't explicitly stated that some Dark Mry are actively seeking out the Nythirian Red doesn't mean that they aren't doing just that. But even if not, does it matter?
Well it matters because if we just presume the races are doing things that aren't stated, why bother reading the lore. We can say the Dwarves are about to raid Skyhold. It isn't stated that they will but that doesn't mean they aren't about to do just that.
I don't see much difference in "I'm taking up this sword and training in combat so that when the NR show up, I can kill them" and "I'm taking up this sword and I'm going to go find them and kill them". At least not in terms of the motivation, decisions, and overall character arc of a hypothetical Mry cleric turned paladin.
No but your claim is that they're seeking revenge, not just picking up a sword and going to cut them down as a warrior might. It talks about temples and ritual observances and that is what I read the clerics are doing.
Also, I don't see what the fact that they take time to mourn their losses on the aniversary has to do with being vengeful. They can they be more than one thing and feel more than one emotion. And the end of the day, mourning the loss of Syronai probably fuels their vengful attitude even more.
In that right, every single race on Terminus is justified to be a Paladin. Even the Gnomes and especially the Halflings. The halflings are WAY ahead of the Dark Myr there. Likewise, the Red are way ahead of the Dark Myr and far more paladin'ish.
As far as Ermos goes, I'm pretty sure that Ermos is just the Sun serving as a focal point for their hatred of the sum total of the circumstances they were put into.
Interesting. "a Creature who may have never been made" is the part that had distracted me from considering that. We'll see. I like the thought and maybe it is as they keep putting emphasis on the word 'creature (as I'll quote below).
But I don't think it really lessens their hatred of the Nythirian Red
I can keep quoting you the same lines but I feel like you'll ignore them. At this point I have nothing left so I'll give you the line once more even if you disagree with the lore.
"Yet there is one “Creature” they blame all things upon, a villain greater than the Nythirian Red, whose vicious actions they rank better than none at all"
So now I'm wondering if it's a creature at all. Thanks for that thought at least. I love getting into this.
oneADseven said:Percipiens said:If I were part of a group that was uprooted from my world and plopped down in the middle of another, survival and preservation would be much more important than branching out in creative ways as far as my role or vocation (class). Eventually, sure, I could see other classes opening up to the different races. For the immediate, however, it makes perfect sense to me that these groups would stick with what they know just for the sake of survival. With humans, yes, they (and we) tend to adapt quickly, look for better ways, easier ways, more lucrative ways, but only one of the races in Terminus is human. Perhaps in the future or through progeny different combinations will be available, but for now, it makes sense that a bunch of mostly mistrustful groups would stick to their own, as it were.
The "immediate" began 975 years ago for Ogres. More than 500 of those years saw them sharing the planet with Humans. Even the most recent addition (Gnomes) have been there for 315 years. Here is a consolidated timeline of when each race landed on Terminus:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5306/a-consolidated-timeline-of-terminus
I appreciate the sentiment of your post but if races were eventually going to branch out as you put it, wouldn't it have happened by now? Your post seems to imply that all of the races had only recently arrived.
Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.
Percipiens said:Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.
Hello? I think I really like this. To avoid the dead horse that is this debate in the future, I might just quote this. It may not apply to all of the races on Terminus but it certainly aids in explaining several.
Tigersin said:Percipiens said:Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.
Hello? I think I really like this. To avoid the dead horse that is this debate in the future, I might just quote this. It may not apply to all of the races on Terminus but it certainly aids in explaining several.
Honestly I'm ok with this as long as there isn't just "one human culture and city", in EQ it was pretty great with Freeport, Qeynos, Highpass Hold, Surefall Glade, and later (for the horror of some) Katta Castellum and Sanctus Seru. There were different cultures, areas and cities.
If all the human society is centerd around a single city, the chances for it to have split cultures is really low and would be quite illogical, as cultures only split when distance allow them to sprout in different directions.
Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?
A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.
Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?
Chanus said:Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?
A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.
Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?
That's a good question and the one that started this. I think everyone has shared the answers above. My super short answer is this: Not every race has a dedicated order crusading for their deity.
Could they? YES. Do they now? Apparently not. 8)
Tigersin said:Well it matters because if we just presume the races are doing things that aren't stated, why bother reading the lore. We can say the Dwarves are about to raid Skyhold. It isn't stated that they will but that doesn't mean they aren't about to do just that.
Obviously the races are going to be doing things that aren't specifically stated because we only have a few paragraphs describing their status. I think it's fine to discuss the plausibility of various scenarios within the context of the lore. The question you have to ask is whether certain scenarios are plausible, and there's two relevant questions to determininig plausibility. Firstly, how consistent is the scenario with the information we already have. And secondly, is the scenario significant enough where if it were true, you would expect it to be stated explicitly. In other words "if this were true, would they have told us about it". In my opinion, some Dark Mry clerics deciding to take up arms (i.e. convert to paladin) and go hunt down Nythirian Red passes both tests. Dwarves starting a war with Gnomes fails both tests.
No but your claim is that they're seeking revenge, not just picking up a sword and going to cut them down as a warrior might. It talks about temples and ritual observances and that is what I read the clerics are doing....In that right, every single race on Terminus is justified to be a Paladin. Even the Gnomes and especially the Halflings. The halflings are WAY ahead of the Dark Myr there. Likewise, the Red are way ahead of the Dark Myr and far more paladin'ish.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Being a cleric is a prerequisite for being a Paladin. So only Human, Dwarf, and Dark Mry could even theoretically become paladins... because the other races can't be clerics. As it says in the class description, a Paladin is a cleric that "has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order. Led by their convictions, the Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit". All you need to do to perfectly justify Dark Mry paladins is to add an "and the Nythirian Red" to the description of the object of their hatred (undead) that causes them to transform from being a cleric into a paladin.
Interesting. "a Creature who may have never been made" is the part that had distracted me from considering that. We'll see. I like the thought and maybe it is as they keep putting emphasis on the word 'creature (as I'll quote below).
I don't think "creature" is meant to be taken literally with our scientific understanding of the sun. Many primitive cultures have personified celestial objects like the sun and moon. And considering that the Myr were previously an aquatic race, I can imagine that the Mry would HATE the sun's brightness in their eyes, it's intense heat, and it's blistering radiation. When you add the quotes about Ermos hovering in the air, not appearing to have been made, and departing without a word (sunset), I think it's pretty conclusive that Ermos is the sun.
MauvaisOeil said:Honestly I'm ok with this as long as there isn't just "one human culture and city", in EQ it was pretty great with Freeport, Qeynos, Highpass Hold, Surefall Glade, and later (for the horror of some) Katta Castellum and Sanctus Seru. There were different cultures, areas and cities.
If all the human society is centerd around a single city, the chances for it to have split cultures is really low and would be quite illogical, as cultures only split when distance allow them to sprout in different directions.
So, first, this makes sense. I want to state that I get what you're saying. I also loved the concept of Qeynos and Freeport. That said...
If you'll allow (and I beg) I want to point out that the lore suggests that the world may have come to Humans and they had no need to go anywhere. I don't want to quote it because I imagine you're familiar with it...and it will make this reply stupid long. I just wish to remind you of it. Also I feel that the humans are a little busy with their aristocracy...issues.
edit: it's fine if you disagree, I won't reply further, I just wanted to contribute one idea.
Percipiens said:oneADseven said:Percipiens said:If I were part of a group that was uprooted from my world and plopped down in the middle of another, survival and preservation would be much more important than branching out in creative ways as far as my role or vocation (class). Eventually, sure, I could see other classes opening up to the different races. For the immediate, however, it makes perfect sense to me that these groups would stick with what they know just for the sake of survival. With humans, yes, they (and we) tend to adapt quickly, look for better ways, easier ways, more lucrative ways, but only one of the races in Terminus is human. Perhaps in the future or through progeny different combinations will be available, but for now, it makes sense that a bunch of mostly mistrustful groups would stick to their own, as it were.
The "immediate" began 975 years ago for Ogres. More than 500 of those years saw them sharing the planet with Humans. Even the most recent addition (Gnomes) have been there for 315 years. Here is a consolidated timeline of when each race landed on Terminus:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5306/a-consolidated-timeline-of-terminus
I appreciate the sentiment of your post but if races were eventually going to branch out as you put it, wouldn't it have happened by now? Your post seems to imply that all of the races had only recently arrived.
Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.
Yes exactly Percipiens! That’s True. This is in part why I love the unique race/class combos instead of ‘all/all.’ Also, I want an Ogre to feel as little like a human and vice-a-versa.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Being a cleric is a prerequisite for being a Paladin. So only Human, Dwarf, and Dark Mry could even theoretically become paladins... because the other races can't be clerics. As it says in the class description, a Paladin is a cleric that "has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order. Led by their convictions, the Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit".
This was your weakest argument because I could have began with it. Well Dark Myr can't be Paladins because they can't be Paladins. I don't know what you're talking about.
What we're talking about is adding class options to races. So I'll suggest Halflings should be Clerics and now you will agree they should be Paladins. But.. they aren't clerics and Dark Myr aren's Paladins. But we're adding classes, right? Sure, let's add one to halflings. But we're talking about Dark Myr? Yep and Halflings now. OK. Circular reasoning is the best reasoning because it is circular! :)
All you need to do to perfectly justify Dark Mry paladins is to add an "and the Nythirian Red" to the description of the object of their hatred (undead) that causes them to transform from being a cleric into a paladin.
Cool but no one has added that so I guess it's out and the discussion ends here. Unless you just want anyone to start adding lines to the lore. I've got some lines to add to Halfling lore. Want to read them?
I don't think "creature" is meant to be taken literally with our scientific understanding of the sun. Many primitive cultures have personified celestial objects like the sun and moon. And considering that the Myr were previously an aquatic race, I can imagine that the Mry would HATE the sun's brightness in their eyes, it's intense heat, and it's blistering radiation. When you add the quotes about Ermos hovering in the air, not appearing to have been made, and departing without a word (sunset), I think it's pretty conclusive that Ermos is the sun.
Yeah I didn't disagree with you, I just let you know I hadn't considered it and it's interesting. Completely agree that there is something off about putting the emphasis on the word creature. I like this idea.