Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Race-Class Distinctiveness

    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 8:34 AM PDT

    It seems superficially apparent that the snapshot state of the world in the lore before the game launches has it on the precipice of opening up to experiences between the races they have not yet encountered. Otherwise, how can you allow for a player to travel to areas it's not directly state in the lore their race has visited? The idea there can't possibly be an enclave of the Myr that have recently encountered the undead and been empowered to form their own Paladin order seems to presuppose the condition that we will not be allowed to interact with other races in the game that aren't already stated to have been encountered.

    A strictly prescriptivist interpretation of lore does no one any good and merely stifles player creativity. I don't think necessarily any wild interpretation is equally valid, but the limitations placed on the game by the lore seem entirely arbitrary and backwards engineered because "this is just how we want it to be."

    • 372 posts
    June 20, 2019 8:38 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    A strictly prescriptivist interpretation of lore does no one any good and merely stifles player creativity. I don't think necessarily any wild interpretation is equally valid, but the limitations placed on the game by the lore seem entirely arbitrary and backwards engineered because "this is just how we want it to be."

    Well THIS is well worded.   Alright how about a moderate approach.  They don't socialize a lot with other races and they just haven't thought of creating an order of paladins yet.  Is that middle of the road enough?

     

    edit:  btw not sarcastic - I liked it :)


    This post was edited by Tigersin at June 20, 2019 8:39 AM PDT
    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 8:47 AM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    Chanus said:

    A strictly prescriptivist interpretation of lore does no one any good and merely stifles player creativity. I don't think necessarily any wild interpretation is equally valid, but the limitations placed on the game by the lore seem entirely arbitrary and backwards engineered because "this is just how we want it to be."

    Well THIS is well worded.   Alright how about a moderate approach.  They don't socialize a lot with other races and they just haven't thought of creating an order of paladins yet.  Is that middle of the road enough?

     

    edit:  btw not sarcastic - I liked it :)

    I mean, yeah, there's no reason to assume they must have encountered the undead and decided to create an order of their own Paladins.

    I am only saying the lore certainly provides for the opportunity for that to happen once the game is launched.

    • 1247 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:06 AM PDT

    Sorry I haven’t been following thread, but goodness. Obviously, there can be an argument made for each and everything to be able to be each and everything. The problem is it’s not very meaningful when everyone running around can just be anything. What’s next? Will I be able play as an ice breathing dragon or a sand giant too? No no, wait! I want to be that fire dragon! It’s just a game so why not? :)


    This post was edited by Syrif at June 20, 2019 9:07 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:17 AM PDT

    woke up, did the ritual, got my news, got my coffee and now i'm reading protf forums.  life is good and it's great to see a respectful clash of ideas.

    @187 with RP in mind, it's great that you want any class any race.  that's why humans are perfect for you XD  let's take a step into the dark myr society for a moment.  in any military, you don't choose your occupation.  you are tested for certain proficiencies then they put you where you can best serve the community/organization.  you can look at spartans, blue collar jobs, white collar jobs, and even nature (orcas, dogs, monkeys, etc).  speaking from personal military experience, everyone had this fantasy of being a grunt.  i wanted to be a grunt, but ended up in aviation because of my proficiencies.  if i was a military organization or culture designed to wage war, i'm going to put this guy in aviation because he's going to be my efficient at messing around with machines of war (it's not like many people can even work on these machines.  well now or days the machines almost fix themselves)

    if the purpose is to create a world, then there are natural laws that have to be followed.  this is the way races, culture, and societies have always operated.  they have certain bounds and restrictions.  you can even look at the forums.  we can't just say whatever we want to say.  we aren't allowed to use profanity, make racial, religous or political references.  

    @nephele i'd totally get dark myr paladins if leviathans were raising the dead.  lore wise though, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that the dark myr themselves would raise their own to help fight off the leviathans.  they can play necromancers.

    @zuljan the whole deal with the dread myr is very interesting.  nythir and syronai are basically like the daddy and mommy for the dark myr.  you could say the dread myr were daddys boy so they were really hard on just staying in the water.  the mommy genetically modifies them to have a lung and some legs for survival of the race because she knows they can't stay in the water forever.  dread myr are like, why u disrespect dad you thot, we don't want lung and legs!  and so they killed her to prevent her from modifying them any further to respect the dads sacrifice.  dark myr is tragic.  you can justify the actions of the dread myr.  it's really how civil wars break out.  i just think they are in a state of indifference.

    kind of like this thread.  you see if we operated without distinctiveness or restrictions, WE WOULD NOT HAVE STORIES LIKE THIS.

    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:17 AM PDT

    Syrif said:

    Sorry I haven’t been following thread, but goodness. Obviously, there can be an argument made for each and everything to be able to be each and everything. The problem is it’s not very meaningful when everyone running around can just be anything. What’s next? Will I be able play as an ice breathing dragon or a sand giant too? No no, wait! I want to be that fire dragon! It’s just a game so why not? :)

    sure you can if that's what vr wants :D

    • 1247 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:22 AM PDT

    ;)


    This post was edited by Syrif at June 20, 2019 9:38 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:47 AM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    Riahuf22 said:

     

     

     Believe me there is literally a laundry list of games that do an all/all atmosphere why would we want that in pantheon if we can get that anywhere else

    Because it might be better? Doing "all/all" doesn't change the tenets of the game or impact its core values. We aren't talking about adding realm v realm pvp, or massive instancing, or anything like that that you can find in other games, like you say. When people come to these boards and rant and say the game is going to fail because open world contested content won't work, we tell them to go play one of the dozen other MMOs on the market that all do it the same way. That's a fundamental difference. EQ wasn't a magical game because it had race/class restrictions, it was a magical game because it was an open virtual world(and many other *fundamental* reasons). It's a really shallow argument. 

    OK but does it make sense for a ogre to have a wizard tower in the middle of it when the ogre by lore is saying they are a tribe based race? Or a summoning circle? No it really doesn't or halfling which love nature to be able to be be a necromancer or a dire lord which love nothing more than to catch things die in the worst ways? Or to have a magical race like the gnome rely on nothing but physical abilities like a warrior?  Your placing an argument on the fact all is better but it isn't because it isn't this isn't DnD you can't crate your own lore for your specific character.  Which is what your basically saying your wanting to do you want the lore to be meaningless, you want to do what you want just for the sake of diversity.  I do NOT want to see a Wizard tower in in the middle of a ogre city, or any of the other things I have mentioned the things you guys are wanting VR might has well make one race and combine all the passive and actives into to it and say where ya go have fun now we don't have to talk about this subject anymore.  Race should never be considered just a cosmetic feature it should have purpose, and like I said you start from the beginning and branch out from there not make them all the same.  

    • 313 posts
    June 20, 2019 9:56 AM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  Being a cleric is a prerequisite for being a Paladin.  So only Human, Dwarf, and Dark Mry could even theoretically become paladins... because the other races can't be clerics.  As it says in the class description, a Paladin is a cleric that "has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order. Led by their convictions, the Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit". 

    This was your weakest argument because I could have began with it.  Well Dark Myr can't be Paladins because they can't be Paladins.  I don't know what you're talking about. 

    What we're talking about is adding class options to races.  So I'll suggest Halflings should be Clerics and now you will agree they should be Paladins.   But.. they aren't clerics and Dark Myr aren's Paladins.   But we're adding classes, right?  Sure, let's add one to halflings.  But we're talking about Dark Myr?  Yep and Halflings now. OK.  Circular reasoning is the best reasoning because it is circular! :)

     

     

     Your argument (as I understood it) was basically 'everyone can want to fight undead, so there's an argument that everyone should be a paladin".   But that isn't what a paladin is.   A paladin is a cleric that decides to focus on fighting undead.  You're perfectly welcome to make an argument that any additional race would fit as clerics, BUT that's a much more involved argument with far reachig implications for how that race's society is designed compared to arguing whether a race's clerics can become paladins.   A race having clerics involves having a specific kind of relationship between their culture and their pantheon.  For example, my understanding of gnomes is that there is no evidence in their history of them worshiping any kind of deity.  So it would take a huge stretch of the lore to make that work (beyond what is reasonable IMO).  Whereas the jump you have to make to justify paladins in a race that already has clerics is very minor IMO.

    To use an analogy, suppose we were told that a given race has the technological capacity to make cars.   Your argument seems to be that assuming that the race can also make a truck is equivalent to assumign that they can make flying spaceships.  After all, you're changing what they can make from what was explicitly stated in both cases.  So it's the same right?   Except that a truck is just a slighly modified car and a spaceship is a completely different kind of vehicle.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at June 20, 2019 10:18 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:02 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?

    A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.

    Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?

    So by decryption your saying if a paladin and and dire lord believe in the same god for the same reason they are the same class?

    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:09 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    Chanus said:

    Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?

    A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.

    Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?

    So by decryption your saying if a paladin and and dire lord believe in the same god for the same reason they are the same class?

    yes chanus by your definition that is correct.  by vr definition: paladins are ghostbusters.  from a darky myr's culture, it doesn't make sense for them to have paladins.  you'd have to have some lore purpose for them to be ghostbusters.  if anything the are more likely for necromancy to preserve their way of underwater life.

    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:27 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    Chanus said:

    Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?

    A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.

    Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?

    So by decryption your saying if a paladin and and dire lord believe in the same god for the same reason they are the same class?

    I would say the difference being a Paladin traditionally focuses on healing and the Dire Lord (Shadowknight) focuses on harming, but they are essentially two sides of the same coin, yes.

    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:30 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:OK but does it make sense for a ogre to have a wizard tower in the middle of it when the ogre by lore is saying they are a tribe based race? Or a summoning circle? No it really doesn't or halfling which love nature to be able to be be a necromancer or a dire lord which love nothing more than to catch things die in the worst ways? Or to have a magical race like the gnome rely on nothing but physical abilities like a warrior?

    Death is a fundamental aspect of nature. Why couldn't a Halfling's interpretation of a love of nature be corrupted into being an agent of death as a Dire Lord or a steward of death as a Necromancer?

    Why do definitions have to be so narrow and bland?

    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:34 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    Chanus said:

    Instead of what it means to be a Myr, what about what it means to be a Paladin?

    A divinely inspired warrior crusading for your deity is about as simple a definition as I think would still encompass the essence of Paladinity.

    Why couldn't any race that follows a deity have Paladins?

    So by decryption your saying if a paladin and and dire lord believe in the same god for the same reason they are the same class?

    I would say the difference being a Paladin traditionally focuses on healing and the Dire Lord (Shadowknight) focuses on harming, but they are essentially two sides of the same coin, yes.

    See but than all your doing is saying a dire lord who fights for his deity it's just his deity is all about pain and death and mass destruction and all that but he still fight for then as a deity, but a paladin also fights for deity but those deities are more of a good guy kind of sense.  But if you had a skar be a paladin which by lore are savages and only believe in one deity which basically by what I understand is everything a dire loves.  But if a Skar can be a Paladin but also love the same deity than other than a spell line what makes them different when by total definition that are not only not 2 sides of the same coin but 2 different coins entirely.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at June 20, 2019 10:35 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:44 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    Riahuf22 said:OK but does it make sense for a ogre to have a wizard tower in the middle of it when the ogre by lore is saying they are a tribe based race? Or a summoning circle? No it really doesn't or halfling which love nature to be able to be be a necromancer or a dire lord which love nothing more than to catch things die in the worst ways? Or to have a magical race like the gnome rely on nothing but physical abilities like a warrior?

    Death is a fundamental aspect of nature. Why couldn't a Halfling's interpretation of a love of nature be corrupted into being an agent of death as a Dire Lord or a steward of death as a Necromancer?

    Why do definitions have to be so narrow and bland?

    Because it's their lore, what don't you get, it's literally their entirely history, if it said they lived nature but some fiddled with unknown elements and created wizards in the experiments of being curious I wouldn't care if they became certain casters because the lore says they figured it out.  But if you read the history and than say oh well I know it dont know what to say but i want to  be a ogre wizard and live in a tribe that knows nothing about wizardry and no one to tell me how to be a wizard, so I might as well stay a lvl 1 wizard because I'll never gain any new spells because my entire race knows absolutely nothing about my way of life so there no way I can actually progress unless if I leave my tribe and disown entirely and befriend unknown individuals to teach me something I technically know nothing about.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at June 20, 2019 11:11 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 10:54 AM PDT

    all race/all classes lets you tell your own individual story at the cost of vr telling the story they want to.  let's be real for a moment.  most other players really aren't going to care about each individual players story.

     

    vr is restricting race / class so they can tell their story at the cost of invdividual players story.  quite frankly i want to read vrs story.  i'll maybe read an individuals story as a bonus.

     

    i'm here discussing this because i want vr's world foundation to be strong.  serious writer/storyteller will understand this.  it's really in everyones best interest if lore/class/race is logical and reasonable.  yes there is those grey areas like a halfling gone against nature and have gone full dire lord mode or an archaei becoming summoner, but those are individual stories.

     

    • 209 posts
    June 20, 2019 11:01 AM PDT

    I won't try to answer all four questions in detail, but I'll just say that I'm pretty content with the way the race/class picture looks right now. If I could fine-tune it to my exact liking, maybe I'd let Elves be Paladins and Clerics, and maybe I'd take a couple options away from Humans, but that's pretty minor to me. I think, for me personally, if every race could be every class, it would dilute something special about the game world, as I feel that the class options available to a race do help to establish the race's identity. Also, while I'm a firm believer in giving the player the ability to make bad decisions in character development that result in a weaker character, I don't think the initial race/class choice should be one of those decisions. I'd like to see all races that can be a certain class be more or less equally viable (different for sure, but equally viable) for that class, and this would probably be impossible if every race could be every class.

    Again, I'm not arguing that it should be this way. At the end of the day the devs will do what they feel is best. Just my thoughts on the matter.

    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 11:02 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    all race/all classes lets you tell your own individual story at the cost of vr telling the story they want to.  let's be real for a moment.  most other players really aren't going to care about each individual players story.

     

    vr is restricting race / class so they can tell their story at the cost of invdividual players story.  quite frankly i want to read vrs story.  i'll maybe read an individuals story as a bonus.

     

    i'm here discussing this because i want vr's world foundation to be strong.  serious writer/storyteller will understand this.  it's really in everyones best interest if lore/class/race is logical and reasonable.  yes there is those grey areas like a halfling gone against nature and have gone full dire lord mode or an archaei becoming summoner, but those are individual stories.

     

    100% agree well put man/woman no other way to look at it.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at June 20, 2019 11:02 AM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    June 20, 2019 11:10 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    stellarmind said:

    all race/all classes lets you tell your own individual story at the cost of vr telling the story they want to.  let's be real for a moment.  most other players really aren't going to care about each individual players story.

     

    vr is restricting race / class so they can tell their story at the cost of invdividual players story.  quite frankly i want to read vrs story.  i'll maybe read an individuals story as a bonus.

     

    i'm here discussing this because i want vr's world foundation to be strong.  serious writer/storyteller will understand this.  it's really in everyones best interest if lore/class/race is logical and reasonable.  yes there is those grey areas like a halfling gone against nature and have gone full dire lord mode or an archaei becoming summoner, but those are individual stories.

     

    100% agree well put man/woman no other way to look at it.

    Beautifully written Stellar! 100% agree and more. Regarding my post - just because I want to be a fire breathing dragon doesn‘t mean that I should be able to in VR’s world. 

    • 372 posts
    June 20, 2019 11:34 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

     Your argument (as I understood it) was basically 'everyone can want to fight undead, so there's an argument that everyone should be a paladin".   

    Well I don't know how to help without double posting. 

     

    stellarmind said:

    all race/all classes lets you tell your own individual story at the cost of vr telling the story they want to.  let's be real for a moment.  most other players really aren't going to care about each individual players story.

     

    vr is restricting race / class so they can tell their story at the cost of invdividual players story.  quite frankly i want to read vrs story.  i'll maybe read an individuals story as a bonus.

     

    i'm here discussing this because i want vr's world foundation to be strong.  serious writer/storyteller will understand this.  it's really in everyones best interest if lore/class/race is logical and reasonable.  yes there is those grey areas like a halfling gone against nature and have gone full dire lord mode or an archaei becoming summoner, but those are individual stories.

    What are you doing typing out fluid thoughts and being reasonable?  Don't you have a new thread to fill in off-topic?!   Ha. <3

    No, but that's what this entire thread represents.  Our desires vs their desires in this area. Unless of course there is a programming reason that they can't use certain races for certain classes.  I don't know. When I think back over the last 11 pages I just shake my head because it has become people trying to justify what they want.  Is there anyone here who remembers the "Our game or Their game" thread?  Feels familiar... because, like that question, the answer is somewhere inbetween.  I'll make this my last post here but I want to say I had a good time reading a lot of the posts in this thread.

    • 3237 posts
    June 20, 2019 11:46 AM PDT

    Percipiens said:

    Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.

    This is inconsistent with your last message that suggested that they would stick with what they know just for "the sake of survival."  It would be a mistake to broadly categorize all Amish people the same.  There are over 250,000 Amish in North America and their population has been rising rapidly.  The Amish church started approximately 325 years ago, roughly the same amount of time that the "newest" race (gnomes) landed on Terminus.  While there are strict sects/communities that forbid all influence of modern technology, that is way more of an exception than a rule.  I happen to have an ongoing business relationship with an Amish gentleman and I know from first-hand experience that they (at least some of them) are willing to deviate from tradition, depending on the situation.

    While some sects will strictly forbid the use of cell-phones, others will allow it.  Some will strictly forbid the use of power-tools, others will allow them.  These decisions will vary from community to community and are generally voted on.  The point I'm trying to make here is that there is no "universal standard" that all Amish must live by.  Most are willing to use motorized washing machines while using tractors for field work is more of an anomaly.  Flushing toilets and running bath water tubs are more common than not.  Mechanical refrigerators are very much an up-in-the-air thing where it can go either way.

    Comparing any race in Pantheon to the Amish would only reinforce the point that I have been making on this thread.  They are capable of independent thought and while there are traditionalists who are much more fervent in their desire to preserve the ways of old, the free-thinkers are willing to branch out and live by their own set of beliefs.  Aborigines have been isolated from the outside world so it's not really fair to make that comparison at all.  (Unless we are to believe that day 1 of launch will lead to countless unprecedented interactions between the various races.)  Modern civilization is extremely strict in limiting contact with the Aborigines due to concerns of their immune system and vulnerability to contracting infectious disease that could threaten their survival.

    Shaolin Monks represent a very small fraction of a percent of the Chinese race and it's unfair to imply that an entire race (I understand you used the words group/tribe/clan, hence the distinction) would live that way because they choose to.  There were many monks who were unhappy to see their Shaolin Temple featured in a reality TV show but one of their more affluent decision makers insisted that commercial enterprise was necessary in order for the temple to survive.  It makes much more sense, in my opinion, that there would be outer sects/communities that break from "tradition" or "culture" within every race.  Sounds like a great quest line to me and it's certainly aligned with the meaningful faction excerpt in the FAQ.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 20, 2019 12:01 PM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 12:13 PM PDT

    @tigersin ya i do, but this is so joosy i have to post here :D gotta make sure i'm real sharp for pvp ^_^ and to drop some fat memes....

    i'm merely test driving the class/race matrix with the lore.  i mostly agree with the class matrix in general, but i do think it needs a bit of tweaking to the suspension / gear ratios for certain cars or adjustments to the race track.  usually you don't get the option to manipulate the race track though XD


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at June 20, 2019 12:28 PM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    June 20, 2019 12:15 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Percipiens said:

    Not necessarily, no. There are some groups, clans and tribes of humans that still live the same way they did 1000 years ago - shao lin monks, amish, Aborigines....it could be quite a list. This idea of everyone spreading their way of life and it being accepted and adopted by others is a very western way of thinking. These groups of people live the same way they always have because they choose to. Class restrictions, while somewhat limiting, are part of what make each race unique, and should be celebrated, imo.

    This is inconsistent with your last message that suggested that they would stick with what they know just for "the sake of survival."  It would be a mistake to broadly categorize all Amish people the same.  There are over 250,000 Amish in North America and their population has been rising rapidly.  The Amish church started approximately 325 years ago, roughly the same amount of time that the "newest" race (gnomes) landed on Terminus.  While there are strict sects/communities that forbid all influence of modern technology, that is way more of an exception than a rule.  I happen to have an ongoing business relationship with an Amish gentleman and I know from first-hand experience that they (at least some of them) are willing to deviate from tradition, depending on the situation.

    While some sects will strictly forbid the use of cell-phones, others will allow it.  Some will strictly forbid the use of power-tools, others will allow them.  These decisions will vary from community to community and are generally voted on.  The point I'm trying to make here is that there is no "universal standard" that all Amish must live by.  Most are willing to use motorized washing machines while using tractors for field work is more of an anomaly.  Flushing toilets and running bath water tubs are more common than not.  Mechanical refrigerators are very much an up-in-the-air thing where it can go either way.

    Comparing any race in Pantheon to the Amish would only reinforce the point that I have been making on this thread.  They are capable of independent thought and while there are traditionalists who are much more fervent in their desire to preserve the ways of old, the free-thinkers are willing to branch out and live by their own set of beliefs.  Aborigines have been isolated from the outside world so it's not really fair to make that comparison at all.  (Unless we are to believe that day 1 of launch will lead to countless unprecedented interactions between the various races.)  Modern civilization is extremely strict in limiting contact with the Aborigines due to concerns of their immune system and vulnerability to contracting infectious disease that could threaten their survival.

    Shaolin Monks represent a very small fraction of a percent of the Chinese race and it's unfair to imply that an entire race (I understand you used the words group/tribe/clan, hence the distinction) would live that way because they choose to.  There were many monks who were unhappy to see their Shaolin Temple featured in a reality TV show but one of their more affluent decision makers insisted that commercial enterprise was necessary in order for the temple to survive.  It makes much more sense, in my opinion, that there would be outer sects/communities that break from "tradition" or "culture" within every race.  Sounds like a great quest line to me and it's certainly aligned with the meaningful faction excerpt in the FAQ.

    In this entire example I I hear is why humans can basically be every class not so much why the different races can be every class, like I mean literally you just spelled it out for us.  But you think that human are the same as cave men you would be wrong, and so therefore shouldn't be expected to be the same in everything, because we alrdy know we werent.

    • 3237 posts
    June 20, 2019 12:34 PM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    @187 with RP in mind, it's great that you want any class any race.  that's why humans are perfect for you XD  let's take a step into the dark myr society for a moment.  in any military, you don't choose your occupation.  you are tested for certain proficiencies then they put you where you can best serve the community/organization.  you can look at spartans, blue collar jobs, white collar jobs, and even nature (orcas, dogs, monkeys, etc).  speaking from personal military experience, everyone had this fantasy of being a grunt.  i wanted to be a grunt, but ended up in aviation because of my proficiencies.  if i was a military organization or culture designed to wage war, i'm going to put this guy in aviation because he's going to be my efficient at messing around with machines of war (it's not like many people can even work on these machines.  well now or days the machines almost fix themselves)

    Now imagine if the military assigned occupation based on race.  They wouldn't bother testing all of your proficiencies because as soon as they take one good look at you, depending on your race, many potential occupations would be ruled out.  That doesn't really happen (anymore) but there is an ongoing drama of gender bias in the military that is more comparable to what you describe.  Creating a character to roleplay in a virtual world isn't the same thing as being qualified to operate a $15M jet.  I mentioned this previously but I have always planned on playing an Ogre Warrior.  This isn't a matter of trying to justify what I want.  It's a matter of questioning consistency and logic and no matter how deep the rabbit hole goes, it seems to end with a realization of "Too bad, it's just the way it is.  If you don't like it, don't buy the game."  I appreciate those who attempted to engage in thoughtful dialogue regardless of whether or not we agreed on something.

    Riahuf22 said:

    In this entire example I I hear is why humans can basically be every class not so much why the different races can be every class, like I mean literally you just spelled it out for us.  But you think that human are the same as cave men you would be wrong, and so therefore shouldn't be expected to be the same in everything, because we alrdy know we werent.

    When a single race can do anything and everything while others are limited (despite being roughly equally intelligent (or more)), it ruins my suspension of disbelief.  It's a campbellian fossil of the narrative that humanity is inherently better than any hypothetical fantasy creature we could encounter.  It's basically putting myself in the shoes of an ogre or dwarf (or any non-human) and realizing that their storybooks feature humans as some sort of superior creature.  The matrix is completely shattered.  You keep trying to reduce my posts into generic interpretations that support your own opinion and it confirms that trying to reason with you is truly a wasted effort.  You completely ignored the context of what was being discussed.  (Amish/Aborigines/Shaolin Monks being used a reference that could support the idea of class/race restrictions for non-humans.)


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 20, 2019 1:06 PM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    June 20, 2019 1:43 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    stellarmind said:

    @187 with RP in mind, it's great that you want any class any race.  that's why humans are perfect for you XD  let's take a step into the dark myr society for a moment.  in any military, you don't choose your occupation.  you are tested for certain proficiencies then they put you where you can best serve the community/organization.  you can look at spartans, blue collar jobs, white collar jobs, and even nature (orcas, dogs, monkeys, etc).  speaking from personal military experience, everyone had this fantasy of being a grunt.  i wanted to be a grunt, but ended up in aviation because of my proficiencies.  if i was a military organization or culture designed to wage war, i'm going to put this guy in aviation because he's going to be my efficient at messing around with machines of war (it's not like many people can even work on these machines.  well now or days the machines almost fix themselves)

    Now imagine if the military assigned occupation based on race.  They wouldn't bother testing all of your proficiencies because as soon as they take one good look at you, depending on your race, many potential occupations would be ruled out.  That doesn't really happen (anymore) but there is an ongoing drama of gender bias in the military that is more comparable to what you describe.  Creating a character to roleplay in a virtual world isn't the same thing as being qualified to operate a $15M jet.  I mentioned this previously but I have always planned on playing an Ogre Warrior.  This isn't a matter of trying to justify what I want.  It's a matter of questioning consistency and logic and no matter how deep the rabbit hole goes, it seems to end with a realization of "Too bad, it's just the way it is.  If you don't like it, don't buy the game."  I appreciate those who attempted to engage in thoughtful dialogue regardless of whether or not we agreed on something.

     

    here's the thing 187.  i'd agree with you if all the races were as adaptable as humans.  i'll use the real world case here.  culturally, historically and naturally, humans have always been versatile.  we can agree that orcas are intelligent right?  they have a certain way of life, a certain enviroment and a culture that may seem foreign or even disgusting to humans.  just because they can be farmers doesn't mean they are going to.  they are going to be foragers and hunters.  sure it'll be a great story about an orca whale who learned to be a farmer, but that is one orca.  i get it that you'd want the chance for this story to be told.

    all the races in terminus are culturally, historically and naturally different.  that's the beauty of it.  because of these differences, specific occupations will occur and helps support that this is a living breathing world if you restrict certain race/class distinctions.  why should the player be a special individual in the world of terminus?  truth of the matter is, you need to make the players feel like they are just another drop in the ocean, so when they create a hideous villian, let's go with dire lord elf, everyone would find that to be an affront even to those outside of elven society.

    this framework is great for a massive multiplayer experience, but it's not for single player experience.

    to be frank, many mmos have tried to sell this image that the player is special and blah blah blah.  i get some 'unique' fancy armor, a title, only to look at the ocean of players wearing the same exact armor and title as me.  i'm sold the illusion i'm special and unque.  when i see everyone is savior of terminus, leader of the 7th dimension, grandmaster of the shadow realm, i feel cheated.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at June 20, 2019 1:46 PM PDT