oneADseven said:stellarmind said:@187 with RP in mind, it's great that you want any class any race. that's why humans are perfect for you XD let's take a step into the dark myr society for a moment. in any military, you don't choose your occupation. you are tested for certain proficiencies then they put you where you can best serve the community/organization. you can look at spartans, blue collar jobs, white collar jobs, and even nature (orcas, dogs, monkeys, etc). speaking from personal military experience, everyone had this fantasy of being a grunt. i wanted to be a grunt, but ended up in aviation because of my proficiencies. if i was a military organization or culture designed to wage war, i'm going to put this guy in aviation because he's going to be my efficient at messing around with machines of war (it's not like many people can even work on these machines. well now or days the machines almost fix themselves)
Riahuf22 said:In this entire example I I hear is why humans can basically be every class not so much why the different races can be every class, like I mean literally you just spelled it out for us. But you think that human are the same as cave men you would be wrong, and so therefore shouldn't be expected to be the same in everything, because we alrdy know we werent.
When a single race can do anything and everything while others are limited (despite being roughly equally intelligent (or more)), it ruins my suspension of disbelief. It's a campbellian fossil of the narrative that humanity is inherently better than any hypothetical fantasy creature we could encounter. It's basically putting myself in the shoes of an ogre or dwarf (or any non-human) and realizing that their storybooks feature humans as some sort of superior creature. The matrix is completely shattered. You keep trying to reduce my posts into generic interpretations that support your own opinion and it confirms that trying to reason with you is truly a wasted effort. You completely ignored the context of what was being discussed. (Amish/Aborigines/Shaolin Monks being used a reference that could support the idea of class/race restrictions for non-humans.)
I don't see it as humans being superior though, I see it as being adaptive in the fact that human are known to be quite frail comparing to a lot of thing known in the world, but he adapt irl though technology the way they adapt though mythical means of a fantasy world, they simply just learned how to be those thing to defend themselves or to attack others, but to think they are superior casters over a gnome who literally made themselves magical beings falls short to be, granted are they more adaptive than gnomes yes, but superior I don't see it gnome have their strengths over them just like human have strengths over them and the humans strength is able to adapt to most situations. And I can keep comparing to every race but in the grand scheme of things the main advantage human have is able to adapt but basically lose to every race in a particular fashion that is known as a strength to that particular race, so no I don't see them as superior just extremely adaptive
And in EQ humans could be literally every class but shaman and the only class they were the best at was monk, and some might say bard.
This tendency of some to interpret game rules as in-fiction rules as to what is or isn't possible boggles my mind a little.
It's not that the rockling race physically can't produce firewalkers for some reason, it's that it's just not very relevant, not iconic, not informative to their culture... So it's more flavorful to not highlight the possibility in their throngs of superpowered murderhobos. And then the firewalkers of races for whom it's very iconic have some special impact when they are encountered by rockling players. It's one of the few, and more powerful, tools of bringing a game setting alive. Wringing it out into implications of some races "being incapable of independent thought" is blowing me away.
stellarmind said:here's the thing 187. i'd agree with you if all the races were as adaptable as humans. i'll use the real world case here. culturally, historically and naturally, humans have always been versatile. we can agree that orcas are intelligent right? they have a certain way of life, a certain enviroment and a culture that may seem foreign or even disgusting to humans. just because they can be farmers doesn't mean they are going to. they are going to be foragers and hunters. sure it'll be a great story about an orca whale who learned to be a farmer, but that is one orca. i get it that you'd want the chance for this story to be told.
Comparing orcas to humanoid creatures isn't exactly the same thing but I get your point. They don't have the self awareness of humans but they do have more than most other creatures on our planet. At the same time, they do lack opposable thumbs and when it comes to abstract thought, generative computation, and promiscuous combination of ideas, all of the humanoid races of Terminus would have a pretty massive edge. Beyond that, there are species of orca who have evolved their hunting techniques that see them temporarily beaching themselves in order to ambush seals. It's a very rare trait among orca but it does exist. It goes against their instinct (leaving the safety net of water) and is highly dangerous, but observing it has been a marvel to researchers. Either way, for the sake of consistency, let's stick to the idea that the "races" being discussed can speak to each other, travel together, coordinate plans, and foster long impactful relationships.
oneADseven said:stellarmind said:Comparing orcas to humanoid creatures isn't exactly the same thing but I get your point. They don't have the self awareness of humans but they do have more than most other creatures on our planet. At the same time, they do lack opposable thumbs and when it comes to abstract thought, generative computation, and promiscuous combination of ideas, all of the humanoid races of Terminus would have a pretty massive edge. Beyond that, there are species of orca who have evolved their hunting techniques that see them temporarily beaching themselves in order to ambush seals. It's a very rare trait among orca but it does exist. It goes against their instinct (leaving the safety net of water) and is highly dangerous, but observing it has been a marvel to researchers. Either way, for the sake of consistency, let's stick to the idea that the "races" being discussed can speak to each other, travel together, coordinate plans, and foster long impactful relationships.
let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
KCRiley said:This tendency of some to interpret game rules as in-fiction rules as to what is or isn't possible boggles my mind a little.
It's not that the rockling race physically can't produce firewalkers for some reason, it's that it's just not very relevant, not iconic, not informative to their culture... So it's more flavorful to not highlight the possibility in their throngs of superpowered murderhobos. And then the firewalkers of races for whom it's very iconic have some special impact when they are encountered by rockling players. It's one of the few, and more powerful, tools of bringing a game setting alive. Wringing it out into implications of some races "being incapable of independent thought" is blowing me away.
To be completely honest I'm sure if ogre didn't have independent thought all of the would simply just be dire lords or warriors, but since they do use it they also expanded it to shaman and druid.
stellarmind said:oneADseven said:Comparing orcas to humanoid creatures isn't exactly the same thing but I get your point. They don't have the self awareness of humans but they do have more than most other creatures on our planet. At the same time, they do lack opposable thumbs and when it comes to abstract thought, generative computation, and promiscuous combination of ideas, all of the humanoid races of Terminus would have a pretty massive edge. Beyond that, there are species of orca who have evolved their hunting techniques that see them temporarily beaching themselves in order to ambush seals. It's a very rare trait among orca but it does exist. It goes against their instinct (leaving the safety net of water) and is highly dangerous, but observing it has been a marvel to researchers. Either way, for the sake of consistency, let's stick to the idea that the "races" being discussed can speak to each other, travel together, coordinate plans, and foster long impactful relationships.
let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
Stellar- Well said, again. :) I think that’s also an important point for people to consider and ultimately realize.
KCRiley said:This tendency of some to interpret game rules as in-fiction rules as to what is or isn't possible boggles my mind a little.
It's not that the rockling race physically can't produce firewalkers for some reason, it's that it's just not very relevant, not iconic, not informative to their culture... So it's more flavorful to not highlight the possibility in their throngs of superpowered murderhobos. And then the firewalkers of races for whom it's very iconic have some special impact when they are encountered by rockling players. It's one of the few, and more powerful, tools of bringing a game setting alive. Wringing it out into implications of some races "being incapable of independent thought" is blowing me away.
Allowing players to be part of the storytelling process (roleplaying) is also one of the most powerful tools of bringing a game setting alive. Many would argue that it's an ingredient of drama / mystique that hasn't been properly harnessed in MMO's due to a lack of tools/platforms that can leveraged by the players. There is a difference between something not being relevant/iconic/informative and not being possible. It's not a matter of not highlighting a possibility, it's highlighting the impossibility. We could flip the script and make it so each race had a unique class and then the remaining 5 classes would be distributed in some other fashion. This would further boost the idea of generating a special impact as these races encounter each other, knowing that each one had it's own unique class. (Would this be perceived as better?) Anyway ... it's not a matter of interpreting game rules as in-fiction rules. It was very clearly stated that the class/race restrictions were in place because of lore. Lore is not a game rule, it's fiction.
But who is to say the races didn't use independent thought and simply decided not to be those classes? VR did and they decided that the races history decided that they wanted to be the classes that they have and are happy in their way of life, even though that choice was made and your unhappy with it doesn't make it a bad choice or a wrong one just one your not happy with nothing more or less.
Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
Tigersin said:stellarmind said:all race/all classes lets you tell your own individual story at the cost of vr telling the story they want to. let's be real for a moment. most other players really aren't going to care about each individual players story.
vr is restricting race / class so they can tell their story at the cost of invdividual players story. quite frankly i want to read vrs story. i'll maybe read an individuals story as a bonus.
i'm here discussing this because i want vr's world foundation to be strong. serious writer/storyteller will understand this. it's really in everyones best interest if lore/class/race is logical and reasonable. yes there is those grey areas like a halfling gone against nature and have gone full dire lord mode or an archaei becoming summoner, but those are individual stories.
What are you doing typing out fluid thoughts and being reasonable? Don't you have a new thread to fill in off-topic?! Ha. <3
No, but that's what this entire thread represents. Our desires vs their desires in this area. Unless of course there is a programming reason that they can't use certain races for certain classes. I don't know. When I think back over the last 11 pages I just shake my head because it has become people trying to justify what they want. Is there anyone here who remembers the "Our game or Their game" thread? Feels familiar... because, like that question, the answer is somewhere inbetween. I'll make this my last post here but I want to say I had a good time reading a lot of the posts in this thread.
You're not wrong, but one thing to keep in mind is that VR has previously talked about how there is a good degree of disagreement internally about some of the race/class combos. So while I agree that having restrictions in general is a foundational part of their vision, I think giving them feedback about what combos we supporters think do or do not make sense is a good thing. And I don't think it's just people trying to justify their individual preferenes either. Personally I'm not interested in playing as a paladin, but I do think it should be available to the Mry based on the what we know of the lore.
Riahuf22 said:But who is to say the races didn't use independent thought and simply decided not to be those classes? VR did and they decided that the races history decided that they wanted to be the classes that they have and are happy in their way of life, even though that choice was made and your unhappy with it doesn't make it a bad choice or a wrong one just one your not happy with nothing more or less.
Exactly and well stated Riahuf. There is such a thing as the collective and I imagine some races are much more so than humans. Furthermore, some races are obviously vastly different from humans in ways that humans may not fully comprehend. One of the many, many complications with humans. :)
Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
You keep telling other people what they think. Also I don't think you know what the word literally means.
Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
You keep telling other people what they think. Also I don't think you know what the word literally means.
I don't tell people what they think everyone just keeps repeating themselves so I just simplified it down to what it is what people are saying which is they want diversity amongst all the races. And yes I know what literally means haha.
Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
You keep telling other people what they think. Also I don't think you know what the word literally means.
I don't tell people what they think everyone just keeps repeating themselves so I just simplified it down to what it is what people are saying which is they want diversity amongst all the races. And yes I know what literally means haha.
You *literally* just told me how I want Pantheon to play
You *literally* said earlier in this thread that people "know you're right", after you say things like "but with the restrictions to u bring different possibilities of what you want to play". You're hilariously wrong, and then tell other people that they know you're right. smh
Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
You keep telling other people what they think. Also I don't think you know what the word literally means.
I don't tell people what they think everyone just keeps repeating themselves so I just simplified it down to what it is what people are saying which is they want diversity amongst all the races. And yes I know what literally means haha.
You *literally* just told me how I want Pantheon to play
You *literally* said earlier in this thread that people "know you're right", after you say things like "but with the restrictions to u bring different possibilities of what you want to play". You're hilariously wrong, and then tell other people that they know you're right. smh
And you have repeatedly been saying you've wanting to play pantheon with more diversity in the races since like 3 days ago, so they only way I am wrong in this assemption is if you have changed your mind so instead of me telling you how you have been wanting to play pantheon you have been telling everyone how you want to play pantheon which is with diversity and have an all/all feature which you have even commented on that is is better than having class restriction so where anywhere in my statement is wrong. Me telling you what you have said isn't me telling you how you want to play the game it is you telling us and than repeating it how you said it.
Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Ogres don't have music? Ogres don't like entertainment? Ogres don't get wanderlust? We're making some *wild* assumptions based on a few paragraphs of lore. Again, people are just spinning that lore to fit the existing narrative while ignoring the tremendous counter points that others are making. Basically the argument for the restrictions as they stand is "because that's the way they stand". And there are still people arguing that the restrictions bring MORE possibilities? It's *literally* the opposite, but I guess y'all gonna die on that hill .
And people wanting all/all basically just saying they want diversity for the sake of diversity, which isn't a good reason at all and to say independent thought is meaningless because you can't say they weren't and simply decided not to be any of those other classes it not up to the player to decide which class belong to which race, and it should never be that way.
Your literally trying to play pantheon like DnD where your taking a huge world and using the world's smallest microscope.
You keep telling other people what they think. Also I don't think you know what the word literally means.
I don't tell people what they think everyone just keeps repeating themselves so I just simplified it down to what it is what people are saying which is they want diversity amongst all the races. And yes I know what literally means haha.
You *literally* just told me how I want Pantheon to play
You *literally* said earlier in this thread that people "know you're right", after you say things like "but with the restrictions to u bring different possibilities of what you want to play". You're hilariously wrong, and then tell other people that they know you're right. smh
And you have repeatedly been saying you've wanting to play pantheon with more diversity in the races since like 3 days ago, so they only way I am wrong in this assemption is if you have changed your mind so instead of me telling you how you have been wanting to play pantheon you have been telling everyone how you want to play pantheon which is with diversity and have an all/all feature which you have even commented on that is is better than having class restriction so where anywhere in my statement is wrong. Me telling you what you have said isn't me telling you how you want to play the game it is you telling us and than repeating it how you said it.
I've never said I wanted it, *nothing* of the sort in fact. I dare you to quote a single quote from me in this thread that would indicate that. I'm expressing the opinions of how changing the restrictions could be better. And let's add another to your laundry list of logical fallacies in this thread. As if wanting(which I haven't said) "all/all" directly means I want 5e DND rules?
Look I'm not where to single people out, nor should be the intent of these forums, but to adamantly go against class restrictions and saying that all/all is better and statements such as these are simply pure opinion and just doesn't make it so, it only prove correct to the ones that sant it that way much how class restriction seems better to people like me who want it that way. So I'm done arguing it's simply not worth it and for as long as the matrix stays I'll be happy and some people might have to adjusts much like if they go another route I might have to be the one to adjust. But as is I don't see any harm in it I'm simply just tired of repeating myself and hearing the people saying the opposite repeat themselves in the process, I'm tired of running is circles.
Zuljan said: interesting reading interpretations in my opinion. the myr literally literally laid under the ice water until people walked over them, attacked them, and then got dunked back under water effortlessly and THAT is the entirety of their history on land apart from syronai giving those red myr their lungs (and then all of the main pop dark myr all retreated underwater again back home). They have nothing to do with any history apart from that and never even left there pond in all records of history. No one knows anything about them and they don’t really know anything about anyone else. They are clearly the tormented/tainted race due to a mad queen (syronai) or at least that’s how it read to me, but certainly any hypotheses into them traveling to Kingsreach and finding out about undead or a paladin order is almost beyond postulation. Again the humans are the only ones who have “MASTERED THE SEA” travelled the world AND took written accounts via the keeper and remain the only evidence of the accord to this day, so my point being the myr have been such homebodies that not even the humans no a single shred of info about them as outlined multiple times.
Zuljan, I appreciate your passion for this, but there's written lore that we have access to that directly contradicts some of what you're saying:
Reference: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/lore/the_age_of_chaos/
Are you saying that this lore posted on the main website is inaccurate or invalid in some way? It clearly describes the Dark Myr having contact with and working with other races, and taking part in the Deicide War on multiple continents. And while the Dark Myr may have withdrawn from the pact immediately afterwards to pursue their own interests, that does not mean that they have completely isolated themselves.
Further, I am really confused by your insistence that the only undead in Terminus are on Kingsreach. Can you point me to the piece of lore that says this? Because it seems odd to me - especially when necromancer is a class open to races that live on Reingfall and Whitethaw.
I'd like to take a slightly different approach to this. Let's look at each (humanoid) race as a culture, country or geographic area, which would be accurate, just like it is in real life for all of us humanoids now. As far as classes go, I'd call the Terminus humans the USA. Everything is pursued, innovation thrives, commerce is robust, treachery abounds - all classes are available there. Now, let's look at the others. Where on our earth would we find a tribal race (still humanoid) that was miltarily focused, traditional, not much for all the tech and gadgetry that abounds in other parts of the world? How about a (still humanoid) more savage, less organized race who has as much internal strife as they do external? What about a relatively advanced, vocationally diverse race that holds all others in contempt and likes to keep their secrets? What about a more outgoing (yes, still humanoid), basically good people who mostly keep to themselves, but don't actively shun or avoid other groups and even offer aid when asked?
I'm sure you can see Pantheon's races in the questions I posed, but the more important question is this: Did an actual people group currently living on earth right now come to mind when you read any of them? If it did, then you can see why class restrictions are in place and make sense (other than the fact it's VR's story and they can tell it however they choose). Just because they're all humanoid, it doesn't mean they all have the same goals, desires, methods, means or even ends.
This game is not our story, it's VR's. Yes, we have parts in it and that will get added as we go, but the boundaries, main plot lines, even secondary and tertiary plot lines follow a general outline of their choosing. We have some freedom in how we add our part, but not total freedom. Even in PnP games, the DM controls the main story line. Yes you generally have more freedom with races and classes, but I have played with DM's who were fairly restrictive. It sucked in a way, but I wasn't the DM, so I either played by the rules or not at all.
All fair points Percipiens. At the same time, it's important to remember that the US is a melting pot society where many of our most advanced scholars, successful athletes, pioneers of technology/medicine, chefs, entertainers, military, politicians, or any other (insert profession here) are of foreign descent. Using USA as an example only exemplifies how illogical it is to assign a permanent restriction based on race. There are plenty of people who purposely leave their home country due to the reasons you outlined (goals/desires/methods/means/ends) -- they come to the US because it's known as the land of opportunity. They aren't bound by the customs and traditions of their people and when given the opportunity to excel at something that isn't considered "normal" for their race, they don't fail to impress. I have accepted that race/class restrictions are absolutely going to be a thing but will hold out hope that players will be given a chance to break out of them. That process could be tied into progeny, have maximum faction requirements, and an epic quest line. Would that be reasonable? If an Ogre reaches max level ... achieves maximum faction with Race X, completes an arduous questline, achieves maximum favor with a given deity (via sacrifice of coin/loot, if necessary) then, maybe they could have their child (progeny) learn from Race X and open up a new class?
Syrif said:Riahuf22 said:But who is to say the races didn't use independent thought and simply decided not to be those classes? VR did and they decided that the races history decided that they wanted to be the classes that they have and are happy in their way of life, even though that choice was made and your unhappy with it doesn't make it a bad choice or a wrong one just one your not happy with nothing more or less.
Exactly and well stated Riahuf. There is such a thing as the collective and I imagine some races are much more so than humans. Furthermore, some races are obviously vastly different from humans in ways that humans may not fully comprehend. One of the many, many complications with humans. :)
They decided as an entire race? Every last one of them, in perpetuity? The history of fantasy novels and movies is littered with "unlikely heroes" of all kinds. The little people from Willow had warriors to protect them and hunters to feed them and, yes, magic users too.
Maybe the Ogre bard starts with a bonus to percussion instruments and a penalty to stringed, etc.
oneADseven said:All fair points Percipiens. At the same time, it's important to remember that the US is a melting pot society where many of our most advanced scholars, successful athletes, pioneers of technology/medicine, chefs, entertainers, military, politicians, or any other (insert profession here) are of foreign descent. Using USA as an example only exemplifies how illogical it is to assign a permanent restriction based on race. There are plenty of people who purposely leave their home country due to the reasons you outlined (goals/desires/methods/means/ends) -- they come to the US because it's known as the land of opportunity. They aren't bound by the customs and traditions of their people and when given the opportunity to excel at something that isn't considered "normal" for their race, they don't fail to impress. I have accepted that race/class restrictions are absolutely going to be a thing but will hold out hope that players will be given a chance to break out of them. That process could be tied into progeny, have maximum faction requirements, and an epic quest line. Would that be reasonable? If an Ogre reaches max level ... achieves maximum faction with Race X, completes an arduous questline, achieves maximum favor with a given deity (via sacrifice of coin/loot, if necessary) then, maybe they could have their child (progeny) learn from Race X and open up a new class?
That is my point. They leave their home country, the life they knew, their culture....all of it to start over. But what of the country they left? Doesn't it remain the same? I understand what you're arguing for and I don't discount or really disagree with it. At some point, sure. What that point is, well, that isn't our call because it isn't our game. It may very well be that's all part of the plan right now and we just don't know it.
I guess it boils down to this for me. Just because a certain race could be any class, it doesn't mean they necessarily would. While I understand the sentiment and think it would loads of fun to be an oddball ogre enchanter, skar summoner or elven necromancer, at this point in the history of Terminus it just hasn't happened yet.
Percipiens said:oneADseven said:All fair points Percipiens. At the same time, it's important to remember that the US is a melting pot society where many of our most advanced scholars, successful athletes, pioneers of technology/medicine, chefs, entertainers, military, politicians, or any other (insert profession here) are of foreign descent. Using USA as an example only exemplifies how illogical it is to assign a permanent restriction based on race. There are plenty of people who purposely leave their home country due to the reasons you outlined (goals/desires/methods/means/ends) -- they come to the US because it's known as the land of opportunity. They aren't bound by the customs and traditions of their people and when given the opportunity to excel at something that isn't considered "normal" for their race, they don't fail to impress. I have accepted that race/class restrictions are absolutely going to be a thing but will hold out hope that players will be given a chance to break out of them. That process could be tied into progeny, have maximum faction requirements, and an epic quest line. Would that be reasonable? If an Ogre reaches max level ... achieves maximum faction with Race X, completes an arduous questline, achieves maximum favor with a given deity (via sacrifice of coin/loot, if necessary) then, maybe they could have their child (progeny) learn from Race X and open up a new class?
That is my point. They leave their home country, the life they knew, their culture....all of it to start over. But what of the country they left? Doesn't it remain the same? I understand what you're arguing for and I don't discount or really disagree with it. At some point, sure. What that point is, well, that isn't our call because it isn't our game. It may very well be that's all part of the plan right now and we just don't know it.
I guess it boils down to this for me. Just because a certain race could be any class, it doesn't mean they necessarily would. While I understand the sentiment and think it would loads of fun to be an oddball ogre enchanter, skar summoner or elven necromancer, at this point in the history of Terminus it just hasn't happened yet.
So there are no "fallen" elves or dwarves? Of course there are, littered throughout fantasy literature for decades. Just like ogre mages and halfling warriors. People are twisting all of this to fit what they want without actually addressing the real reason VR has restrictions in place: resources are required to create and balance all of these things. So we can argue about what their arbitrary decisions are and point at lore, but let us keep it real. Instead the argument seems to simply be "well most of that race wouldn't do it". Races aren't classes, races are made up of individuals. Just because a race wouldn't be a class doesn't mean every single individual of that race wouldn't either. That is just silly.
Keno Monster said:Syrif said:Riahuf22 said:But who is to say the races didn't use independent thought and simply decided not to be those classes? VR did and they decided that the races history decided that they wanted to be the classes that they have and are happy in their way of life, even though that choice was made and your unhappy with it doesn't make it a bad choice or a wrong one just one your not happy with nothing more or less.
Exactly and well stated Riahuf. There is such a thing as the collective and I imagine some races are much more so than humans. Furthermore, some races are obviously vastly different from humans in ways that humans may not fully comprehend. One of the many, many complications with humans. :)
They decided as an entire race? Every last one of them, in perpetuity? The history of fantasy novels and movies is littered with "unlikely heroes" of all kinds. The little people from Willow had warriors to protect them and hunters to feed them and, yes, magic users too.
Maybe the Ogre bard starts with a bonus to percussion instruments and a penalty to stringed, etc.
Nope, but it could be that other members of their race were already banished long ago. Perhaps such members of ‘said’ race exist in other parts of the world as NPC’s. It is quite clear already that some Humans are not very likely to fully comprehend the nature and norms of that race and their city. And if you are going to be starting in said race’s city, then you will have to accept and be a part of their society, nature, and norms (at least at creation). You may or may not be limited on what is available to you at creation in their city. If what said race offers you at creation is something you don’t agree with, then you will have the option to make a Human (for all/all since they accept that), or you may just choose a different race altogether that you do agree with and become one of them.
I say that to you as an open-minded human with respect, knowledge, and appreciation that everything (including races) is not and will not be the same in Terminus. Races will differ greatly in what they are willing to offer you at creation. It’s important to realize that there is a race already that offers all/all and that is the Humans. Since I don’t want all/all I will be playing a different, stricter race. I am thrilled with what VR has already accomplished and I am looking forward to the massively multiplayer online roleplaying game that they are making. Cheers ;)