Look comparing humans of different regions and such doesn't prove anything because all those humans in those regions are still human it's really that simple. So all this human in Europe being this and this guy in USA is this are still just human so trying to concoct a theory using humans on why ogre should be able to have all classes simply doesn't make sense because ogres aren't humans or even close to related. Plus like I said trying to theory craft how to make all races to become all classes doesn't make sense in the fact that not all races are the same, so why should they be treated like they are? I mean I don't want to see a Wizard tower in every city or tribe I go to, or a summoning circle, or a dark lair where the Dire Lord and necromancer chills in I want them to be unique, I want them to be special, I want to know when I go to another home city it is going to be much different simply because the classes and the Lore of them game made a influence of how the city was made. If they make a dire lord available to everybody than seeing a lair or torture chambers or tools of cruelty wouldn't be special because every city would have something like this in all of the cities and that region of the city would have something that might remind you of another city simply because the theme is the same because a dire lord human and a dire gnome is still a dire lord and believe in close to the same type of behaviors. But if you separate the combination of eace/class than the cities and it's immediate surrounding areas can all be dramatically different simply because the races themselves are dramatically different.
Riahuf22 said:Look comparing humans of different regions and such doesn't prove anything because all those humans in those regions are still human it's really that simple. So all this human in Europe being this and this guy in USA is this are still just human so trying to concoct a theory using humans on why ogre should be able to have all classes simply doesn't make sense because ogres aren't humans or even close to related. Plus like I said trying to theory craft how to make all races to become all classes doesn't make sense in the fact that not all races are the same, so why should they be treated like they are? I mean I don't want to see a Wizard tower in every city or tribe I go to, or a summoning circle, or a dark lair where the Dire Lord and necromancer chills in I want them to be unique, I want them to be special, I want to know when I go to another home city it is going to be much different simply because the classes and the Lore of them game made a influence of how the city was made. If they make a dire lord available to everybody than seeing a lair or torture chambers or tools of cruelty wouldn't be special because every city would have something like this in all of the cities and that region of the city would have something that might remind you of another city simply because the theme is the same because a dire lord human and a dire gnome is still a dire lord and believe in close to the same type of behaviors. But if you separate the combination of eace/class than the cities and it's immediate surrounding areas can all be dramatically different simply because the races themselves are dramatically different.
The bold text above is contradicted by the fact that humans can be every class. Nothing will be "special or unique" for humans. Humans have everything in their cities, and nobody else is capable of achieving their level of absolute awesomeness.
Also, for the record, I agree with 99% of what 187 has been stating, but my post got deleted by Kilsin because I used a more socially sensitive analogy.
As I said before, removing a couple of classes from the Human class list, or allowing another race be allowed to be everything would likely clear up a lot of the discrimination/distinctiveness hub-bub.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:The bold text above is contradicted by the fact that humans can be every class. Nothing will be "special or unique" for humans. Humans have everything in their cities, and nobody else is capable of achieving their level of absolute awesomeness.
Also, for the record, I agree with 99% of what 187 has been stating, but my post got deleted by Kilsin because I used a more socially sensitive analogy.
As I said before, removing a couple of classes from the Human class list, or allowing another race be allowed to be everything would likely clear up a lot of the discrimination/distinctiveness hub-bub.
that's the point. if any race can be any class then you lose everything that made that race special or unique. humans are special and unque that they are the only race that can be any class.
you really can't blame your post for being deleted. it's there in the guidelines. i know them pretty well now... a few of my post have dissappeared into the ether.
stellarmind said:let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
Then how can they be some of the IDENTICAL classes (occupations)? All druids will receive Masae's Whte Fox, Hirode... (Ogers, Dark Myr, Archai, Elves, Halflings... and of course Humans) their culture can't be that different and the environment/biology clearly doesn't matter (unless the woodland animals of earth (like a fox) can be aquatic in terminus... but then why aren't there Dark Myr rangers?).
add: $10 bets that Skar, Dark Myr, Human and Archai monks all have the same moves... probably even named the same thing. Don't get me started on an Ogre warrior's fighting style compared to how a halfling or elf would be trained to fight...
add: My point is that we shouldn't rely on lore to explain the race/class matrix.
Darch said:stellarmind said:let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
Then how can they be some of the IDENTICAL classes (occupations)? All druids will receive Masae's Whte Fox, Hirode... (Ogers, Dark Myr, Archai, Elves, Halflings... and of course Humans) their culture can't be that different and the environment/biology clearly doesn't matter (unless the woodland animals of earth (like a fox) can be aquatic in terminus... but then why aren't there Dark Myr rangers?).
add: $10 bets that Skar, Dark Myr, Human and Archai monks all have the same moves... probably even named the same thing. Don't get me started on an Ogre warrior's fighting style compared to how a halfling or elf would be trained to fight...
add: My point is that we shouldn't rely on lore to explain the race/class matrix.
that's why i'm saying the race/class matrix either needs to be adjusted or adjust the lore XD (to reiterate i'm not for sweeping changes. it just needs to be tweaked a bit) the purpose is to create a believable world. if your lore doesn't explain or match a class/race matrix then immersion breaks.
deities are widely known by all the races. that still doesn't influence dictate the history, way of life and biology of the races. just because we are aware of the same deities doesn't mean our interpetations are going to be the same. we may even deny that diety if it interferes with our way of life. i'm still figuring the lore out btw.
example: norse, greek, asian, egyptian mythology all have deities that have striking resemblences to each other. they are all interpeted differently. some of humanities races are aware and know of each others dieties. zeus and odin are pretty similar, ra and apollo are the basically the same, etc etc... some can respect it, some don't care for it, some even despise it and reject it depending if it falls in line with their history and way of life.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:Look comparing humans of different regions and such doesn't prove anything because all those humans in those regions are still human it's really that simple. So all this human in Europe being this and this guy in USA is this are still just human so trying to concoct a theory using humans on why ogre should be able to have all classes simply doesn't make sense because ogres aren't humans or even close to related. Plus like I said trying to theory craft how to make all races to become all classes doesn't make sense in the fact that not all races are the same, so why should they be treated like they are? I mean I don't want to see a Wizard tower in every city or tribe I go to, or a summoning circle, or a dark lair where the Dire Lord and necromancer chills in I want them to be unique, I want them to be special, I want to know when I go to another home city it is going to be much different simply because the classes and the Lore of them game made a influence of how the city was made. If they make a dire lord available to everybody than seeing a lair or torture chambers or tools of cruelty wouldn't be special because every city would have something like this in all of the cities and that region of the city would have something that might remind you of another city simply because the theme is the same because a dire lord human and a dire gnome is still a dire lord and believe in close to the same type of behaviors. But if you separate the combination of eace/class than the cities and it's immediate surrounding areas can all be dramatically different simply because the races themselves are dramatically different.
The bold text above is contradicted by the fact that humans can be every class. Nothing will be "special or unique" for humans. Humans have everything in their cities, and nobody else is capable of achieving their level of absolute awesomeness.
Also, for the record, I agree with 99% of what 187 has been stating, but my post got deleted by Kilsin because I used a more socially sensitive analogy.
As I said before, removing a couple of classes from the Human class list, or allowing another race be allowed to be everything would likely clear up a lot of the discrimination/distinctiveness hub-bub.
It doesn't contradict what I say because it will be different for the fact the other races can't be every class and so therefore will be built in the view of their lore and what classes they can be. Like since an ogre can't be a ton of classes and selected to a slight few the city would be dramatically different than the human city which supports all classes.
Darch said:stellarmind said:let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
Then how can they be some of the IDENTICAL classes (occupations)? All druids will receive Masae's Whte Fox, Hirode... (Ogers, Dark Myr, Archai, Elves, Halflings... and of course Humans) their culture can't be that different and the environment/biology clearly doesn't matter (unless the woodland animals of earth (like a fox) can be aquatic in terminus... but then why aren't there Dark Myr rangers?).
add: $10 bets that Skar, Dark Myr, Human and Archai monks all have the same moves... probably even named the same thing. Don't get me started on an Ogre warrior's fighting style compared to how a halfling or elf would be trained to fight...
add: My point is that we shouldn't rely on lore to explain the race/class matrix.
OK look the biggest difference from every game that an all/all scenario all have one thing in common, They ALL START IN THE SAME LOCATION REGARDLESS OF WHAT CHOICE YOU CHOOSE. every single one of them from DDO, Neverwinter, RIFT, Aion, the list goes one, they all have the exact same starting locations they aren't supporting multiple different starting locations and than making all the classes all/all and than making all the cities roughly the same, and than let you play the game, why would they if they wanted to do that they could literally got go back and make a single starting point and do the same exact thing.
Riahuf22 said:Darch said:stellarmind said:let me clarify a bit: races in terminus aren't like the races in humanity. races in terminus are fundimentallly different than each other. while they may all appear humanoid, their enviroments, biology, occupations and culture are wildly different.
Then how can they be some of the IDENTICAL classes (occupations)? All druids will receive Masae's Whte Fox, Hirode... (Ogers, Dark Myr, Archai, Elves, Halflings... and of course Humans) their culture can't be that different and the environment/biology clearly doesn't matter (unless the woodland animals of earth (like a fox) can be aquatic in terminus... but then why aren't there Dark Myr rangers?).
add: $10 bets that Skar, Dark Myr, Human and Archai monks all have the same moves... probably even named the same thing. Don't get me started on an Ogre warrior's fighting style compared to how a halfling or elf would be trained to fight...
add: My point is that we shouldn't rely on lore to explain the race/class matrix.
OK look the biggest difference from every game that an all/all scenario all have one thing in common, They ALL START IN THE SAME LOCATION REGARDLESS OF WHAT CHOICE YOU CHOOSE. every single one of them from DDO, Neverwinter, RIFT, Aion, the list goes one, they all have the exact same starting locations they aren't supporting multiple different starting locations and than making all the classes all/all and than making all the cities roughly the same, and than let you play the game, why would they if they wanted to do that they could literally got go back and make a single starting point and do the same exact thing.
I get the logic behind your opinion, but the "birth place" of a person still doesn't determine their personality/goals and asperations - or their career choices. An individual's birth locatoin should not be a determining factor of their occupation or person they marry (although this is the case in some scenarios where companies are passed down or marriage is arranged). It is incredibly linear thinking to believe that an individual cannot branch out from what their parents/ancestors have done, and only logical if those relatives have been succesfful in life. I.e. inheritting a family business is logical, even if not idealogical to the heir of said inheritance; given a choice, some heirs would choose to make their own way if nothing more than to prove that they can...
Also - most MMOs start off with restricted race/class matrix (like WoW did) and change to all/all years later to attract new players as well as retain long time players which works for a while; so not every all/all game has players "START IN THE SAME LOCATION REGARDLESS OF WHAT CHOICE YOU CHOOSE."
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:Darch said:stellarmind said:
Also - most MMOs start off with restricted race/class matrix (like WoW did) and change to all/all years later to attract new players as well as retain long time players which works for a while; so not every all/all game has players "START IN THE SAME LOCATION REGARDLESS OF WHAT CHOICE YOU CHOOSE."
Well for starters WoW still isn't a all/all mmorpg, it close but close isn't good enough, and another thing is that even if WoW did go all/all like what 3 years allllgo ago which would of made it 12 years old? Man at least when your trying to make a point let it actually mean something. And yet again there no point in having 9 races with 9 different home cities, and have them all be Fundamentally the same, you might as well make one city and all the races live in it and go on and create the other parts of the world. Stop acting like humans are being treated lie they are superior they weren't not even in EQ, they were blind as a bat at Night, they were only the best monk because they were the only monk in vanilla and lost that to the Iksar on the very next expansion, they were extremely sub par casters, and tanks, and healers, and made an decent bard, and quite frankly i don't see it being much different on pantheon granted they might be a little better as in instead of being subpar they just barely hit par. But still have much stronger choices due to the fact humans adapted to being many classes, that is probably one of their only strengths like it was in eq.
This post was edited by Cealtric at June 21, 2019 9:13 PM PDT
Riahuf22 said:And yet again there no point in having 9 races with 9 different home cities, and have them all be Fundamentally the same, you might as well make one city and all the races live in it and go on and create the other parts of the world.
How does this even remotely make sense? You're basically implying that class restrictions are the only fundamental difference between each city and race. I guess the significance of story, architecture, language, faction, trade, location, nostalgia, sense of home/belonging, inner-community and vibe/atmosphere means nothing? If you truly believe that class restrictions add to all of those things then it means that the human city, by default, would be the least interesting. But humans are supposed to feel "special" because they are the only race that doesn't have restrictions? So restrictions make each race feel unique but a lack of restrictions make humans feel special (uniquely ununique.)
Players help communities feel unique. As it stands, there will be plenty of players who are an (insert race here) at heart, but they're in your city because their desired race/class wasn't available. Or ... you'll see players who are an (insert class here) at heart, but they're in your city because their desired class/race wasn't available. My guess is that most players would prioritize class preference over race preference but I'm sure it goes both ways. (There will be a lot of "extra" dwarves/humans just from players who prioritize paladin/cleric alone.) I understand how restrictions can add to things like the vibe/atmosphere but there is a cost. When it comes to player culture and community it's inevitable that there will be a bunch of folks who feel out of place. They won't be where they are (home?) because they truly want to be there ... they will end up settling.
There is a cost for socially engineering character development and while many folks may be oblivious to that, there will be plenty of others who are permanently affected. Personally ... I know plenty of players who are a "bard at heart" and I'm disappointed that none of them will be able to consider Brokenmaw as their virtual home. I like the energy and swag that exudes from those bard types (this is just one example) and I'm not the least bit convinced that my starter city will be better, in any way, because they're ineligible to call it home.
Darch said:
All druids will receive Masae's Whte Fox, Hirode...
add: $10 bets that Skar, Dark Myr, Human and Archai monks all have the same moves... probably even named the same thing. Don't get me started on an Ogre warrior's fighting style compared to how a halfling or elf would be trained to fight...
Regardless of anything else, I would absolutely love to see this not be true - at least not starting out. If multiple races can be warriors, then I want them all to have at least a slightly different spin on warrior when they start out. Same for any other class we name.
This doesn't mean that there can't be shared abilities. For example, I could see 70% of low-level warrior abilities being available from the trainers in any city. The remaining 30%? Those would be spread out between different cities. If you as a warrior want to learn all of them, you have to travel a bit.
I feel that doing something like that would help insure that two PCs of the same class but different races didnt "feel" functionally the same.
If abilities could be named differently by culture? That would be huge. But that would also probably be really tough to do.
Nephele said:Regardless of anything else, I would absolutely love to see this not be true - at least not starting out. If multiple races can be warriors, then I want them all to have at least a slightly different spin on warrior when they start out. Same for any other class we name.
This doesn't mean that there can't be shared abilities. For example, I could see 70% of low-level warrior abilities being available from the trainers in any city. The remaining 30%? Those would be spread out between different cities. If you as a warrior want to learn all of them, you have to travel a bit.
If that were true, warriors would need to do a lot more traveling than paladins. Not that I would care ... I love stuff like this, but the concept would have to be disproportionately implemented depending on the class you play. I guess you could always put a random paladin trainer in Faerthale and Wild's End to spice things up. Human/Dwarf clerics needing to visit Syronai's Rest would be interesting. I really do like the concept and feel that it would add even more meaning to each starting city and their associated factions. It would be a really nice way to integrate characters into the rest of the world and offer something of significant value to the cities that you don't call home.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:And yet again there no point in having 9 races with 9 different home cities, and have them all be Fundamentally the same, you might as well make one city and all the races live in it and go on and create the other parts of the world.
How does this even remotely make sense? You're basically implying that class restrictions are the only fundamental difference between each city and race. I guess the significance of story, architecture, language, faction, trade, location, nostalgia, sense of home/belonging, inner-community and vibe/atmosphere means nothing? If you truly believe that class restrictions add to all of those things then it means that the human city, by default, would be the least interesting. But humans are supposed to feel "special" because they are the only race that doesn't have restrictions? So restrictions make each race feel unique but a lack of restrictions make humans feel special (uniquely ununique.)
Players help communities feel unique. As it stands, there will be plenty of players who are an (insert race here) at heart, but they're in your city because their desired race/class wasn't available. Or ... you'll see players who are an (insert class here) at heart, but they're in your city because their desired class/race wasn't available. My guess is that most players would prioritize class preference over race preference but I'm sure it goes both ways. (There will be a lot of "extra" dwarves/humans just from players who prioritize paladin/cleric alone.) I understand how restrictions can add to things like the vibe/atmosphere but there is a cost. When it comes to player culture and community it's inevitable that there will be a bunch of folks who feel out of place. They won't be where they are (home?) because they truly want to be there ... they will end up settling.
There is a cost for socially engineering character development and while many folks may be oblivious to that, there will be plenty of others who are permanently affected. Personally ... I know plenty of players who are a "bard at heart" and I'm disappointed that none of them will be able to consider Brokenmaw as their virtual home. I like the energy and swag that exudes from those bard types (this is just one example) and I'm not the least bit convinced that my starter city will be better, in any way, because they're ineligible to call it home.
No I'm saying they are all interesting simply because they are all different from the very beginning even the humans, your simply doing what you said ive have been doing which is where you take a small statement and they try to exploit it to twist into that fits your way of thinking
And yes if every City has something for a Wizard, Bard, and all the other classes and than hold all the teadeskills stations, and the only true thing that separates them is their language and the way they build they're buildings than Fundamentally they would be all the same because they all hold the same main structures that make them a city.
And this whole thing about cost is all matter of opinion, because especially when it comes to the paladin they have always been extremely restrictive til they made all/all situations, because they were a "good" class and if you race couldn't be "good" you simply couldn't be them and it was simply that simple.
So the players who really wanted to be a paladin they already knew they were going to be restrictive at the very beginning, and so they were ready for it, now we're people surprised when they couldn't be elves yeah some were but we're they surprised that that not very many races could be them, no not so much, at least not the ones who understood how restrictive the class was when it first came out.
Your looking at class restriction as if they're simply not any upside to it. And making all/all is simply superior simply because diversity you believe is better but it isnt, not when it ultimately affects everything the devs have wrote down to us all the way from the lore, which might as well not of been wrote if your simply going to ignore it, or not acknowledge it actually to a point it dictates why some races can't be certain classes.
I'm not even asking for much if the devs write down something right now in the lore that acknowledges that some gnomes recanted from going to a incorporeal being to keep his physical form to be a warrior and dire lord I would accept it because it's in the lore, it really that simple but to just go and be like I understand they are incorporeal being but I still want them to wear plate armor which to be would be impossible to do because they bodies don't have a physical form to endure the weight.
Riahuf22 said:And yes if every City has something for a Wizard, Bard, and all the other classes and than hold all the teadeskills stations, and the only true thing that separates them is their language and the way they build they're buildings than Fundamentally they would be all the same because they all hold the same main structures that make them a city.
I don't think it would be necessary to have dedicated buildings for every profession. Instead of having a "Bard School" in Brokenmaw, the bard trainer might take up lodging in the tavern or inne. Instead of there being a "Wizard School" in Brokenmaw, the wizard trainer might be a seasoned Ogre who is willing to teach others from inside his home. The rogue trainer could be in an alley somewhere. These trainers don't even necessarily have to be ogres, nor do they have to be in the cities themselves. If someone wants to play an oddball composition then maybe they have to visit trainers from other cities/towns/destinations in order to learn anything. There are plenty of ways to facilitate these kinds of things without breaking the game and none of them have to be convenient.
Riahuf22 said:And this whole thing about cost is all matter of opinion, because especially when it comes to the paladin they have always been extremely restrictive til they made all/all situations, because they were a "good" class and if you race couldn't be "good" you simply couldn't be them and it was simply that simple.
Your looking at class restriction as if they're simply not any upside to it. And making all/all is simply superior simply because diversity you believe is better but it isnt, not when it ultimately affects everything the devs have wrote down to us all the way from the lore, which might as well not of been wrote if your simply going to ignore it, or not acknowledge it actually to a point it dictates why some races can't be certain classes.
You acknowledge that the cost of socially engineering character development is relative (opinion-based) but then double down in saying that those who don't share your opinion are wrong. You suggest that I "simply" (x3) don't see any upside to something and feel that having all/all is superior. If you read the post you responded to you'll see that I did acknowledge certain aspects of upside but I went on to explain what I perceive as a related cost. If you read my post before that, you'll see that I have already accepted that race/class restrictions will absolutely be a thing in this game, and that I think it would be a fair compromise to make it possible for players to break out of these restrictions. There are a variety of ways that this could be accomplished. I have tried to provide reasonable/logical/detailed explanations on why I feel the way I do and trying to reduce all of that effort into simply this, simply that, simply blah is more indicative of how you want to interpret things than how I want to explain them.
Riahuf22 said:I'm not even asking for much if the devs write down something right now in the lore that acknowledges that some gnomes recanted from going to a incorporeal being to keep his physical form to be a warrior and dire lord I would accept it because it's in the lore, it really that simple but to just go and be like I understand they are incorporeal being but I still want them to wear plate armor which to be would be impossible to do because they bodies don't have a physical form to endure the weight.
It's impossible for gnomes to endure the weight of plate armor due to their incorporeal form but it's not impossible for them to endure the weight of cloth, leather, light mail, most 1 handed weapons, and inventory weight? Why?
These conversations are pointless it's clear we understand each other just don't agree with our way of thinking so continuing is pointless because the world we are trying to explain simply isn't real and so therefore anything is possible for as long you use any concept and stick to it, like to you it clear that no matter what I should feel able to be a ogre wizard simply just because you want to be a ogre wizard so therefore it makes sense, and regardless for as long you keep referring to it than anyone saying something on the opposite side of the coin says something you mentally reject it because you want to be what you want and there's nothing wrong with that you can have that opinion, just like I have mine an granted I do believe having class restriction is better that just me I always have and will prefer it some an all/all simply because you can create lore better from it..
For example let's say their are dire lord dwarves and such but they are considered an enemy to the world and seek mass destruction on an entire continent or city, and you can go to kill them and protect that part of the world, but if you allow dwarves to be dire lords, than what makes them different than the ones you can create besides a simple lore change of this guy in bad and must be killed and this guy is bad but not as bad as the other so he's okay to roam free.
Now don't get me wrong you can twist it and slap on a whole bunch of lore behind it to make them dramatically different but than your using lore to justify the means which is what I've been doing to justify the races.
And you can disagree with me on all of this just like once you do I can simply disagree with you just for a simple reason that the world isn't real so the possibilities are endless and only determined by the creator, so when keep countering each other we know it can be countered back simply because it isn't our world to fill and keep putting personal reasons on why we Want it to be a certain way because it fills that want that you can expressing, and for as long as it remains their nothing is going to change your mind regardless how many flaws people point at it, because you can simply point out the flaws on the other side of the coin because that's simple human nature to do so.
So I'm going to drop from this topic all together now, VR has clearly made their decision and than said for now that are going to stick to it, or until than their nothing left for me to say, both say pros and cons as we have clearly stated over and over again, and even though you disagree with what I have been saying I have just as strongly disagree with you and therefore have been doing nothing but going in circle and a dance I've been tired of preforming and leave the dance floor to you.
@riahuff22 @187
i has a perfect meme for this occasion
updated found a better one :D
Gnomepaladin said:Since it's 2016 and you're going to be looking to races, has any thought to race and class restriction been brought up? I personally hate race and class restriction, but I realize a lot of you players probably do. If I want to be a...well...gnome paladin...I should have that option. Especially in coming expansions. If Gnomes and Dwarves hang out, why can't I learn how to Paladin from a Dwarf especially if we've been around each other for a year AND I already know similar abilities? I'm not incapable of learning. Just curious.
Nice name. It's almost as if you had your mind set on a character concept that you wanted to roleplay in the virtual world of Terminus. Sorry!
Deadlyfury said:I pray to the Pantheon gods that Halfling Cleric is in :P
soriana said:I see two different kinds of restrictions in most, if not all, the previous RPGs that I've played. Sure, an evil-race Paladin doesn't make sense, but, say, restricting Monks to only be this race or that seems arbitrary - I don't think that monk ideals are good/evil/race exclusive - it's more of a philosophy. The USE of that philosophy/ideals/skills is what makes it good or evil. (btw, Monk is just the first that came to mind, there are other seemingly arbitrary restrictions.)
I'm encouraged by the comment that they will be lore based, but I hope that evolution is kept in mind.
To elaborate: while historically, there may be reasons for restrictions, but as cultures interact things often cross over. For instance, (again, going with monks), Lore may dictate that Humans developed the Monk, but as other races encounter them over time, I think that some would no doubtedly see the advantage and "become one". So, putting (non-obvious) restrictions in place eliminates that aspect and is frustrating to me for an RPG.
My hope is also that there's nothing fundamental about race-class restrictions. That way there's the possiblity they can be removed as the world develops.
TLDR; If it's not an INHERENT conflict (paladin = good by definition and so evil restricted from it), there shouldn't be a restriction. As for Lore, just because it happened in the past, doesn't mean it HAS to be that way now.
Lore > You. Sorry!
Gawd said:my first character must be halfling. Shaman / cleric / summoner / Paladin are the classes i require to be available to the Halfling.... Kilsin inform the team!!!
Strike 4! You're out!
Larr said:But seriously, Halfling Paladin, cleric I'd love to see that happen. Its hard to imagine with the lore we have so far, but we can hope for some sort of celestial involvement.
The halflings are the only ones who don't really have a pantheon of gods. (Their solitary member of a pantheon resides among the elven pantheon.)
EDIT: the source of that data actually may have come from the Kickstarter page, and, as such, could be outdated. lets hope!
Negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.
Pantz said:My list:
Elf, Summoner - easy chance
Iksar, Shaman - ...........
Dark Myr, Warrior - DO IT
Gnome, Monk - pretty please!
Archai, Crusader - medium chance
Dwarf, Dire Lord - medium chance
Halfling, Wizard - easyish chance
Human, Rogue - easy chance
Skar, Ranger - hard chance
Ogre, Cleric - medium-hard chance
Ogre, Necromancer - easy-medium chance
Dark Myr, Bard - easyish chance
5/12 -- not too bad. You forgot "with sugar and cherries on top" if you wanted a chance to play a gnome monk. Sorry!
tehtawd said:I am not a fan of race/class restrictions. You as a player are unique, one of the ways you can be unique and show off your style is how you build your character. The race you feel most at home with and the class you feel most at home with makes sense to YOU the player. It does not necessarily have to make sense to developers, they just have to make sure their NPC’s, Quest Givers, and the entire world they build reflect ‘common themes’. This way emersion will be in place and the players themselves can break that by being special, unique—which is the point!
I suppose if you wanted to make sure a Halfling Warrior could compete with an Ogre Warrior ‘LORE-WISE’ you could simply replace named abilities such as ‘Hulking Counter’ with a different named ability called “Lighting Repost” and you would be done. You wouldn’t even need to change animations, numbers or anything.
Even though I am not a fan of race/class restrictions, it’s by no means a deal-breaker for me. It’s a disagreement. To me it’s a disservice to your players to inconvenience them by not having a race+class combo they can play they feel comfortable with.
Imagine having a game which doesn’t have a race you care for, but you ‘settle for less’
And then they don’t have a class that exactly fits your playstyle so you ‘put up with it’
Too many compromises with your players and they just won’t care anymore and move on.
Your players don’t ‘go against the grain’ they are the tree, the developers just water it.
Your players don’t ‘need a path’, they are the path, the developers just need to travel it.
This is important guys.
-Todd
tehtawd said:To understand my post better it's best to not think of stats in an all encompasing way. If you insist however you can stop reading now-I'll not be talking about it since it doesn't matter from the point of view of the OP and to me.
What matters is having an identity in the game. Brad McQuaid would agree with me that having an identiy in the game is really important. This is why he has focused on perfectly tuning each class to be an individual. People are individuals. If I as a game designer were to create a game to limit people from making choices and force them to pick what I say they have to pick, I would be alienating people. We have enough MMORPG orphans out there, we don't need to make any more.
Lets make another idea shall we?
I have already said the players should be able to do the combination that fulfills them in terms of what race and class combo they want.
Adding another layer to this would be great. How about requiring a max level character of that specific race is the only way to unlock the ability of playing that race as any class? A very nice achievement getting to max level, this would also propel forward alt characters, you may even achieve a combination which perhaps is statistically better than racially intended? If you read this far, I talked about stats. I care about them too you know.
Thanks for chatting with me,
-Todd
This guy gets it. He must have roleplayed a custom character once or twice before. World > Game!
Syntro said:Without race/class restrictions, how would I find the edgiest/rarest combo to proudly create and turn heads?
Gnome Dire Lord please!
The same way you would with race/class restrictions. Restrictions make each combination less edgy/rare, statistically.
Scubasteve said:i believe that if someone wants to play an ogre wizard knowing that they will have a very low mana pool , then they should be given that chance. I never understood why people say certain races can't be bards. So your saying ogers don't like music or entertainment.
I agree that if given the opportunity to play weird combos that will set you back with things like very low mana pool or horrible charisma when that is an important stat for that class , very few people will play them. If you want the challenge , then you should be allowed to try it .
You make way too much sense! I'd offer to buy you a drink in Brokenmaw but who wants to frequent a tavern without bards!?
Beefcake said:Overall, I think ANY RACE should be able to play a warrior. All civilizations will have those people that are more physically capable then others. Even in the most magically gifted races, there will be some that just cannot grasp magic as well as others.
I have never bought the argument against gnomes or other small races not being able to have warriors. Hell, in most games, even pixies and brownies have warriors that wear army and carry tiny spears or swords.
In EQ2 the little brownie soldiers kicked my ass in Lesser Fay Until I got bigger.
I don't buy a lot of arguments, including the one where gnomes can't be warriors. Plate armor is just too heavy for them to endure. I wonder if they will have an artificial bag restriction that prevents them from looting/carrying it?
vjek said:Produced another view of the chart this morning, sorted by number of classes, then sorted by race.
Interesting way to look at the matrix!
letsdance said:+1. in general i would prefer no or very few restrictions on class/race. i understand the troubles of creating an infrastructure for each class in each city, but that could be fixed by moving start city to a different race. or just don't have it, and let people who want a strange combo deal with the problems of not having it available at their start town (in that case give a warning at char creation).
Seems reasonable. Seems like a layer of challenge, even. I bet there are a bunch of people who would be happy to take it on!
Marilee said:Well, lore aside since I do understand choices made according to lore, I feel the small races of gnome and halfling are much too limited in choice of class especially when you take out the two classes that may not be available at launch.
Ogres too. Poor ogres don't have much choice at all.
Just my 2 copper--not an argument, just how I feel.
Apparently, choices are more meaningful when they are governed by restrictions.
dmowgrb said:The low # of races that can be Cleric is disturbing. I can see the race/class division cause problems for Progeny as some Races are getting the shaft on potential class picks.
This is a great point to be considered.
Youmu said:The fact Humans are capable of being every class is a bit of a dissapointment for me, I was hoping they were not going down this path of being the "default option" jack of all trades. Many if not most of the times the more interesting part of things is why is not. Why is it that some races don't have Druids AND Shamans. It gives flavourful thoughts and questions about the culture and thought process of a race or many other things. Humans like this is basically saying "Yea you know they are multi-cultural and diverse and that is why they can be everything", frankly that is a boring and may I even say lazy solution which I am not a fan of.
Also Paladin having so few options, might not play pally if only those are options :(
Totally understandable position. Hopefully you'll "settle" on something.
Ultra said:Dammit i wanted to be a gnome dire lord ;(
You aren't the only one.
Pantz said:Still curious about the lore behind why Archai can be Wizards and not Summoners. Being infused with elements seems like they would be great for Summoners. Maybe that's not what Summoning magic is based on? What's the deal?
Actually ...
Xxar said:You hear us on the elven paladin... *bangs shield with sword* ...ok pweeety please !
But if they give in and allow elven paladins, that would set a precedent. It would probably lead to all combos being available and that would be a catastrophe! Imagine all of the people who would roleplay the character/persona/identity of their choice in an open-world roleplaying game! The terror!
zhyn said:I was really wanting to play an archai direlord! but I guess I will have to settle for the ogre like every other direlord out there. You just couldnt allow me to be a special snowflake could you!
If you want to be a special snowflake you could always do funky things with your hair/size/name.
Altha said:Elven Cleric, please.
We're all out of Elven but please feel free to select one of our pre-cooked Dwarves, Humans, or Dark Myr.
Ruar said:Biggest problem I see with this list is it seems lore is driving decisions instead of balance. Lore is all well and good, but you also have to adjust lore in order to create balance. Having only two races which can choose Paladin is bad. Having such a limited selection which can pick Cleric is bad. There really needs to be a minimum number of options to ensure sufficient diversity in class/race combinations. I think at a minimum each class should have four races and each race has the option of six classes. You can have more like humans, but you shouldn't go less.
Lore > Balance > Roleplaying
antonius said:I would argue for having Archai and Ogre paladins. The race description of the Archai makes them fit perfectly as paladins, and Ogres would be interesting to me since they would be something different from the traditional take. Archai would be like Erudite paladins to me and would be an ideal fit. Also from what I read and understand, Ogres are not "evil" per se. Why can't they have paladins as well? The idea that there are only evil characters in an entire race is silly. Seems neat to me to have a small but dedicated splinter group of paladins in the Ogres. Would be something different from the norm...as an Ogre paladin you have your own "rogue" band of trainers and faction, and suffer being tolerated by most segments of the Ogre society (like the FP militia kind of for paladins of Marr in EQ). Their page does say they value valor and honor and combat, so why not? I would say Elves as well, but obviously that is already a point of discussion. Personally, I would like to see Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Archai and Ogres as paladins, but honestly I could live without Elves based on the lore, especially if we get the other two.
Also, I would not mind seeing Humans restricted from some classes. I don't mind them being able to do almost all the classes, but like others have mentioned, I would like to see them not be able to be some of the classes.
Splinter groups? That's heresy! Why on Terminus would any character ever break from tradition when faction and alignment are integral for interacting with the world and its citizens?
Xentin said:Overall, pretty awesome. I am a little concerned at lack of races for cleric/paladin as I think one or two more could fit lore wise.
I'll probably get slammed by this but what about a huge long "betrayal" system to allow people to become their own character. A long the lines of EQ2 original where you had this crazy quest of factioning to do at a certain level (not the newer grind 20 repeatables or buy a token). Just because lore sets you one way doesn't mean a character cant find a calling somewhere else, happens all the time in lore of every fantasy game for PCs and NPCs. For example the lore has Ogre's valuing Valor and Honor, maybe one gains enough honor with a human paladin faction or guild to change their ways from a warrior to a paladin. It would have to be something that only someone who truly wanted it would go through the work to do this, possibly some rediculous shunning effect towards ones old home. This is something I wanted in EQ1 way back in the day, I would have killed to be a Barbarian Paladin. Just a thought as to possibly help with certain race/class combos not fitting into peoples ideas of what they wanted.
We speak the same language. It's super non-conventional, though, which is why I'm the only person that responded to you and agreed with what you were saying.
halflingwarrior said:Absolutely splendid.
Tell that to forum-user GnomePaladin -- Muahahaha!
Keld said:Awwww no Dorf Shamans :( /cry
Your one and only post on the forum. It's too bad you couldn't form a connection with a character of your choosing, it may have kept you interested!
Kilsin said:Rominian said:I am disappointed with a couple of the choices made for the combos, but can understand them from a lore standpoint. For me a lot depends on how the character models turn out, since I wanted to make a Halfling Cleric. My second choice was Elf Cleric...also not on the list. So I am down to Human or Dark Myr unless a change is made. I think that we all need to realize that this is the first time we have seen this list, and that it is a first pass at the combinations that VR has made. It's possible that as the game progresses and cultures become more mixed in game, that we could see different combinations come available. It's also possible that the *thread closed* system, if implemented, could have an effect on these combinations also.
While it is a first pass for the community, it is not for us, we have put a lot of Time, effort, work and thought into these class/race combinations and while some of you may not be used to some of the restrictions, they make sense from a lore perspective and are actually very complicated and intrinsically entwined into the class interdependence and overall balance of Terminus, these decisions were not made lightly and it is unlikely we will change them for those reasons and more that I cannot reveal yet.
We have taken onboard the feedback about Elf Cleric/Paladin but again, it is unlikely we will change at this stage, all I can say is that just because some people are used to different combinations in other games, doesn't mean you will see the same ones in our game, we are taking our own path and have shown that with our Dark Myr, Cold/Blue Dwarves, Archai and Gnome races.
So my best suggestion is to open your minds and embrace the changes as they are set in place for a reason, we will reveal more as development progress. :)
This has me really interested. I would love to hear more about those yet-to-be-revealed reasons. My opinion could change drastically if there is some sort of super interesting dynamic that could justify this stunt in character development / storytelling / roleplaying.
Darch said:Well put Rominian. Being a DE SHD in EQ as my main I was honestly hoping to play the Paladin in Pantheon... but when I play a fantasy RPG, I want to fantasize that I'm something other than what I am IRL (human) and there is no way I will ever play a dwarf (or halfling) in any game due to personal RP preference/bias. The way I play one race is very different than how I play annother (espcially gnomes). Unless the customization/racial benefit of Humans is incredible I will unfortunately not play the class that I was hoping wouldn't be pigeonholed into being human; and if I'm choosing my race solely on racial benefit then my game mentality goes from RP to meta-gaming min/max which completely changes the feel of a game for me.
Thats just how I feel; I'm certain there are many that would disagree with me
Now imagine that scenario unfolding countless other times with every other race/class combo that isn't available. There will be a ton of people who are less that "convicted" with whatever choice they settle on. It will have an impact on new business and retention, without a doubt. That isn't the end of the world, but it's a curious choice. It's not like we're talking about instancing, fast travel, or cash shops.
Padame said:No elf or halfling clerics.... that is a big let down!!!!
I understand how you feel.
Neonseraphim said: Why can't it be like EQ2 that there is no race/class restrictions? I think it will just be easier that way and more logical. Really think about it, what is keeping anyone from any race to not train and become that class? This way people can play whatever race they want with their favorite class without having to sacrifice one for the other. And no elf pally and cleric.... really?!
EQ2 had restrictions but you could overcome them by betraying. It was a great feature.
UnrealNewbi said: What's a man gotta do to get an evil looking paladin?!? Yall made shadow Knights in EQ but in dungeons and dragons evil paladin or paladin of slaughter Orr paladin or tyranny are very much real things. archai paladin... doesn't necessarily bolster a God or a religion so much as the love of battle. Think about it? :)
Your suggestion presupposes freedom of thought, which is in direct contradiction of enforced (and insurmountable) stereotyping. Sorry.
Wemblack said:Do I need a change.org petition to get a gnome dire lord added into the game!?
Dungeons & Dragons eventually removed race/class restrictions. Roleplaying is more popular when you let the audience get involved in the creative process of storytelling.
Monkfist said:Real Quick,
Odds of Ogre Monk?
Seeing that Skar Monk somehow slipped through I would posit that anything is possible.
letsdance said:gnome warriors... i understand there's not much need for them and surely they'd be the weakest warriors. but it was my favorite char in EQ (yes my main and i've done my share of raiding with her), and surely every race needs someone to protect them. guards etc. it's a fun class. i like ogre druids or dwarf enchanters for the same reason, it sounds fun. just like humans can be every class i think it would be nice to have a class that every race can play.
one thing that worries me is only 3 races for clerics. in about every MMO, the most wanted class for raids etc is the primary healing class. having only 3 races for cleric will cut down their numbers.
Long live Tower, the gnome warrior from EQOA!
Sefax said:so no crossbow dwarven rangers? ;_;
Hold out hope for progeny.
Celandor said:Presumably, the cleric is fully aware of this, yet chooses the book because it provides access to powerful magicks that mitigate more damage than a mere shield. He's not carrying a thick book to press wild flowers or to look up another word for "resurrection".
I know several folks who are upset at the limited racial choices for clerics. They have been role-playing gnome and halfling clerics for years in other games. I get why the gnomes aren't clerics, but I don't see anything in the halfling lore that would restrict them. Since bards aren't likely to be in-game at launch, halflings are limited to 4 classes, tying with them ogres as being the most restricted races in Pantheon. I hope the devs revisit this decision.
From an RP perspective, the class/race matrix holds a few disappointments and a few surprises.
#ReputationMatters -- sorry about those gnome and halfling mains.
Jacasta said:I'm not too fond of the idea that Humans can be whatever the hell they want to be while every other class is more limited, some more so than anothers, and kinda disappointed that Paladin is such an exclusive class...
One man's unhappiness is another man's joy, depending on what you prioritize.
Connas Soth said:I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!
Anyone?
No?
Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.
There are many who share your sentiment. This kind of role sounds iconic in its own right ... too bad the realm of possibility is governed by history and tradition.
Kiera said:I really wish Gnomes could have a healing class i understand why they can't tank being too tiny.
If gnomes can't heal how on earth do they still exist in the world it just doesn't add up.
Are we to believe that gnomes only lived this long by running away or had to seek other races for help to heal their injurys we should ask the Skar Shamen how many Gnomes he has healed.
Are they immortal and never need healing?
I understand that Gnomes dont really fit into some of the healing classes why could they not be druids? They have magic and could use that magic to tame wildlife and study the earth.
Every race except for Gnomes have a healing class.
I'm sure there is a sentence or two in the established lore that would justify this, depending on how you interpret things.
Kalgore said:I dont think it is Okay I feel being such a hybird type of class we should be allowed to play more then two races. I much rather be part of Drizzt type of player. A race so evil they are feared throughout the Multiverse. But once ina great while a member of this evil race and forsakes the hertiage and becomes a force for good.
Even if that doesnt work No reason neatural races cant be a paladin
Drizzt is fantasy gold. Now imagine (imaginary) restrictions that would have yielded a "Yes Ma'am" Drow instead, because Drizzt and everything he stood for was "impossible."
Sunmistress said: I hope so, Human and Dwarf as the only options is absurd. Really quenched my enthusiasm fast after seeing the chart.
There are very few things that can quench enthusiasm from a game-in-development as much as preventing players from connecting to their future characters.
Kalgore said:Larr said:I was looking forward to playing a paladin, because, even if they are not a fantastic tank, they are interesting to play skillfully (based on other games). I met a Paladin that put time into his character in EQlive and he was very fun, efficient, and solid. I was looking forward to being that player. However, I enjoy playing fantastical races that have weaknesses to overcome. I know dwarves are popular paladins, but they are far too cliche for me to ever play seriously. I also don't play RP games to be a human, im a human IRL, and it, too is pretty dang boring.
I know there is probably a pretty loud voice echoing in the VIP forums about elven paladins/clerics(why else would they have already tipped their hand), I would play that. Of, course my distant hope was a halfling paladin, which will likely not happen. Honestly, I dont know if i will even try to play a paladin now until more combinations become available. Until then, the enchanter population will get a little bit larger.
Agree. My EQ2 Paladin was a darkelf that overcame his evil hertiage and became a migthy paladin. plus the racial traits were god awful for a pally which makes it more fun
You mean some people actually like to go against the grain and derive satisfaction out of overcoming challenges!? Oh yeah ... most people in this community would agree, but there are ideals and principles that must be observed!
Leowna said:http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2017_february_classes_of_pantheon says elves can't be a paladin. i want an elf paladin. is that bad?
=(
For you, absolutely. For everybody else who interacts with you in Terminus? To some degree, yes. People are more fun to be around when they are completely bought into their character.
Dulu said:Larr said:One fun little thought. If paladins parallel their gaming predecessors, and are master undead slayers, why would humans and dwarves even need paladins on terminus? Neither race has a lore defined undead enemy, nor has either waged a specific war against an undead enemy. Long live the halfling paladin! (or) All hail the paladin, smiter of evil!
According to the lore, Halflings have more reason than anyone to pick up the shield and hammer and be Paladins!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Koala said:I'm new to this game/forum (joined about 10 mins ago). The first thing I did was to check out the PALADIN class /sigh
I'm not surprised, disappointed - oh yes very definitely disappointed. Dwarves & Humans /sigh
So its a human I will be /sigh
Unfortunately, water is a precious resource. Fortunately (depending on how you look at things) tears can be purified into drinking water and the (paying) subscriber base on this forum is mighty thirsty!
Amped said:I seriously hope this decision is re-thought. Paladin (at this time) is the only class with only 2 races. I Belive this will lead to them being sorely underplayed. It is my intention to play a Paladin, but I am interested in neither Dwarves nor Humans.
Very unfortunate situation to be in.
sidis said:I think it would be cool if the Dark Myr had a quest that allowed them to become paladins. Based on lore they'd be labeled a heretic and the player would have to deal with faction reprecussions based on this decision. This would allow players access to another race, could keep the prevalence Myr paladins rare depending on quest difficulty, and still be consistent with lore.
Heresy accusers are usually mindless sheep. Seeing a character overcome that kind of situation and forge their own path has always been satisfying to me.
TL;DR -- There are many topics that fall victim to the all-powerful echo chamber around these parts. Denying players the privilege to create a character identity that resonates with them is distasteful, IMO. There are plenty of folks who enjoy race/class restrictions for whatever reason ... but there is a cost for socially engineering character development. Players are a very important ingredient in the MMO Magic Recipe and I find it very hard to justify what would ultimately end up being a massive amount of creative/fun casualties. I strongly believe that lore/culture can be appreciated in a meaningful way, even (especially) if it were possible for players to break free from these restrictions. It doesn't have to be easy or convenient ... but making it possible, through progeny/betrayal or some other feature, would be a remarkable gesture. It has the makings of an iconic player-driven questline that could yield an unwavering sense of loyalty and dedication from those who are otherwise disgruntled with settling. At the end of the day, every decision has a cost. Would allowing players this opportunity really have such an overwhelmingly negative impact on others?
oneADseven said:...
Would allowing players this opportunity really have such an overwhelmingly negative impact on others?
Wall of text hits you for 4711 damage! Seriously! :)
I don't think it would impact other players much, IF "unusual" race/class choices were actually rarely made by players. Unfortunately, such choices seem to be very attractive for some reason, so there is a good chance we would end up seeing lots of ogre wizards, skar monks or paladins etc. Especially if the devs are not careful, and particular unique racial abilities appear as better for certain classes than those of the standard races.
I am against opening the race/class matrix to all/all, but I could live with SOME other combinations becoming available as part of progeny. However I would still not allow all possible combinations being made that way.
So because you picked up like 20 different post of other people saying this or that makes you right? There could of easily been 50 different post saying the exact opposite on that topic and you just didn't list them because they were on the opposite side of the coin. And like I said 9 different cities have the same 9 classes and trade skills you might as well make one city and accomplish the same thing, you can say one is in a wizard tower and another is in his home but the common thing is that everywhere has a wizard GM and so will have similar characteristics. You can take another 4 days finding 50 more people and it doesn't change the fact that trying to make 9 cities identical is a whole lot of work where 1 would be better if they were all the same.
Riahuf22 said:These conversations are pointless it's clear we understand each other just don't agree with our way of thinking so continuing is pointless
Shut down all video game forums! :P
It is the case that this discussion continues to go around in circles because the fundamental disconnect is essentially a descriptivist/prescriptivist argument about the in-game lore.
I personally find prescriptivism to be a pox on creativity as it stifles any sort of innovation or thinking about things differently than what has been handed to you from on high. Prescriptivists tend to think that the creativity offered by a more liberal (literary sense, not political) interpretation of a game results in people making decisions that "break the game" by being so far outside the stated lore that it ruins immersion.
Neither of these points of view are necessarily wrong, though I of course prefer my own. If the devs decide to go forward with the race/class matrix they have already published, it is not going to dissuade me from playing the game and I am not going to express hyperbolic displeasure at their decision. I simply think it is unfortunate that they have different ideas about what a players should be able to do than I do. I see no harm in all/all race/class matrices, but it is clearly not within their vision at the present time.
Any sort of argument that tries to definitively and objectively support the superiority of a limited race/class matrix, as some here have quixotically attempted, is just silliness. It's a mere difference of opinion. There is no "correct" answer to the question.
When 2 people keep saying the same thing over and over again and just dancing in circles and no one is budging even a little bit than yes eventually you just drop the conversation because there's isn't a true point to it unless if you simply want a healthy argument with that preson . And that's where it stops because I don't want any kind of argument with 1AD7 because one I honestly feel that if he wants 9 cities to be identical than why wouldn't the devs just make 1 city and save resources, money, and all that hard work and use it to make the rest of the world, the answer is they probably would of if they tried to make them all the same but since they wanted them to be dramatically different they made them have different homelands to represent them dramatically different.
Riahuf22 said:When 2 people keep saying the same thing over and over again and just dancing in circles and no one is budging even a little bit than yes eventually you just drop the conversation because there's isn't a true point to it unless if you simply want a healthy argument with that preson . And that's where it stops because I don't want any kind of argument with 1AD7 because one I honestly feel that if he wants 9 cities to be identical than why wouldn't the devs just make 1 city and save resources, money, and all that hard work and use it to make the rest of the world, the answer is they probably would of if they tried to make them all the same but since they wanted them to be dramatically different they made them have different homelands to represent them dramatically different.
Not to speak for others, but I think starting cities and the lore around the races can be different, unique, and interesting without having to restrict what classes they can play. There is some extent where games will offer the "illusion of choice" because it is easier to have difference be more flavor than substance, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. There's nothing worse as a player than choosing an option you think will be fun and then finding out down the line your choice doesn't get X_Ability and so you've painted yourself into a corner. It works better to have every choice get X_Ability, but shape the description of it to match that race's lore.
Some people see through this veneer and don't like discovering that many choices are only superficially meaningful. I totally understand that viewpoint. I think it is simply impractical to make races so divergent and different because of all the needs of balancing them with each other that would go along with it. I am totally fine with superficial differences in abilities that are actually the same under all the trappings. The story is what matters to me, not the mechanics.
I love how people love the way the lore is written but than when it restricted them in class they say that their lore shouldn't define them in who they are, because like if a ogre wizard could be a class in pantheon wouldn't you think in all the lore of being a tribe type of people that if an Ogre went a different route and became a wizard and became a wizard GM that it wouldn't of made it into the lore? That's like saying when humans figured out how to make light it wasn't documented into history, oh wait it was I forgot.
