MauvaisOeil said:But I prefer more "lore restrictions" like they are currently planned.
That‘s a good way to put it MauvaisOeil. I wasn’t sure how to explain it to them. Lore (and interdependencies) should and do matter in a game/mmorpg such as Pantheon. That’s why matrixes fit well and are nothing new to the genre. :)
oneADseven said:Why can Skar be monks when they are notoriously shortsighted and lack endurance?
"The way of the Monk is a path of harmony between the body and the soul. Through longstanding discipline Monks have transformed their very being into resilient, living weapons which they are able to wield against their enemies with devastating effect."
This is the argument that is always in my mind. Specifically the Skar Monk.
There seems one logical reason. The creators have imagined it to be this way.
I hand-wave it as a nod at the Iksar (although I know the race was not born from that). What are we really working to achieve here? The abilitiy to have things the way we want them. More choice, more options. Our game, our way. That's fine. Call it like it is and just ask for more choice.
edit: I quoted you for the skar ref .. not to direct a reply at you <3
It's entirely about more choice. Let players be creative. Use D&D's Rule of Cool.
If a player wants to do something different and/or interesting, and it doesn't cause harm, let them do it.
"I don't like it because that's now how games were 20 years ago," I don't believe is real harm.
Nephele said:Earlier tonight I was party to a spirited debate in Discord regarding Pantheon's published race/class restrictions. It was such an interesting debate, with passionate opinions on all sides, that I thought it would be a good topic to bring here.
Essentially, the debate was about the fact that based on what we know right now, not every race can be every class - and many races don't even have some roles available to them at all. Gnomes, for example, have no tank classes. Ogres have no "dps" or "control" classes in the list currently.
Is that really something you can justify with the lore? Does it make sense that a Dark Myr, who could be a cleric, could not be a paladin? Does it make sense that gnomes can be rogues, but not warriors? Or that Archai can become wizards but not summoners?
I wanted to throw some things out and see if we could get a community discussion going about this. The info we have from the website is almost 3 years old, and the class definitions and their ability lists have been dramatically refined in that time as the game has developed. Maybe it's time to take another look at this topic and see if there's a general consenus on what "feels" right for Pantheon.
Please note: I'm not expecting the devs to change course because of this thread. But if they're at a point where maybe some of the underlying things behind that decision 3 years ago has changed, and they're re-evaluating as they wrap up project Faerthale, I think knowing our thoughts might help them as well.
So, my questions:
1) Do the current race/class restrictions shown on the web page feel too restrictive to us or just right? Based on what we know about the races, what would we want to change about that list if we could?
2) Would people be more ok with the race and class restrictions if they were only there for character creation initially, and later on, through some sort of long and involved quest, you could actually switch your class to something else? (For example, you start as an Ogre Shaman but later, after a lot of hard work and determination, gain acceptance into the wizard's school in Syronai's Rest and become a very rare Ogre Wizard)
3) If there are two races that can be the same class, should each race have different "takes" on that class at character creation? For example, should Dark Myr warriors favor spears initially, and lighter armor with more manueverability, while Human warriors favor swords and heavy plate, giving each race a sort of unique "style" of that class that the player could choose to either stay with or move away from? Or should all characters of the same class start off more or less identical, regardless of which race they select?
4) When a race (such as Gnomes) doesn't have any class options that use an entire category of items, does it make sense for members of that race to be able to learn how to craft those items in their starting city? Or, should they have to travel somewhere where those things are actually used? (Example: Should gnome blacksmiths be able to learn to create heavy armor in Skyhold if there are no gnomish heavy armor users?)
I see what your saying about the classes, and to a point it doesn't make sense but at the same time using that logic most of the races would be cosmetic, besides for beginning stats, I actually like for one the races do vary a lot on what classes they can be even if to a point it doesn't make sense, and I also like they got away from the EQ mold to where some of the races are very different in lore and the classes they can be reflect the same.
As as for some of the races like the Ogre I don't see him being a CC race, like I see war drums, and giving out war cries, and spiritual healing and all that, I don't see him saying a chant while holding a book in one hand and a staff in another and bam target goes asleep, not saying it can't be a thing or saying it shouldn't be allowed, I'm just saying to me it doesn't fit.
i'd rather have a happy medium of both that makes sense. dark myr lore states they are a race created to combat leviathans.
martial arts are something that comes from oppression and tyrannical organizations. it's a direct result of removing weapons in a population. does it makes sense for a race specifically created for largescale underwater warfare to even have monks and rogues? would you even throw fireballs, control plants or use an air elemental UNDERWATER?
i've given justification for why dark myr should not be monks, wizards, summoners, rogues or druids. i haven't seen a reason why they should be able to be these classes other than vr says so.
I THINK MOST OF THE OTHER RACES ARE FINE WITH VERY LITTLE TWEAKS.
having full blown any race can be any class with no distinctiveness means you might as well not even have races if everyone is the same. we can all just be humans roaming terminus :D
@Mauvais
My point isn't inaccurate. It's not like EQ is solely responsible for representing history. To be fair, I haven't played any of the "recent games" because I don't care for their design philosophies. I have read all of the lore for Pantheon and agree with most others who have commented on how awesome it is. Istuulamae is a very gifted writer and storyteller. While most of you folks were playing EQ in 1999, I spent years as part of various online roleplaying communities. EQ may have been a pioneer for MMO's but roleplaying existed way before EQ came out. My post (and several that came after it) were meaning to shine a light on what roleplaying actually means. It allows players to get involved in the creative side of telling their story. Unlike typical video game RPG's where you play the "hero" to save the "world" in a mostly linear storyline, there is a unique draw to open-world MMO's that is predicated on freedom of choice.
I was a huge fan of the oldschool RPG's such as Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Lufia, Breath of Fire, etc. I enjoyed playing through their stories and roleplaying the characters that they created for the role. When it comes to an open-world MMO, though, the experience starts off much different. You are responsible for creating your own character and forging your own path for an epic adventure. Being able to make a character and backstory that is your own, and then play them in a virtual world, is the stuff that traditional roleplayers only dreamed of. My preference is to play an MMORPG that helps facilitate that freedom of choice when it comes to character development and storytelling. There is no right or wrong choice of what race/class you play or what direction you head off to when you leave your starting city. It's a misconception to think that this concept of "there is no right or wrong choice" is synonymous with every combination effectively being the same, though. I have advocated for exactly the opposite. I prefer for each race to have different starting attributes and meaningful racial passives. Please see the following theory crafting document I put together which was 100% inspired by lore: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18DJpTEde6-G7jxrZHRfFLFhRsU07_WBN8a1WyNmiJPs
stellarmind said:having full blown any race can be any class with no distinctiveness means you might as well not even have races if everyone is the same. we can all just be humans roaming terminus :D
You can create races with meaningful differences without limiting class choice quite easily?
oneADseven said:@Mauvais
My point isn't inaccurate. It's not like EQ is solely responsible for representing history. To be fair, I haven't played any of the "recent games" because I don't care for their design philosophies. I have read all of the lore for Pantheon and agree with most others who have commented on how awesome it is. Istuulamae is a very gifted writer and storyteller. While most of you folks were playing EQ in 1999, I spent years as part of various online roleplaying communities. EQ may have been a pioneer for MMO's but roleplaying existed way before EQ came out. My post (and several that came after it) were meaning to shine a light on what roleplaying actually means. It allows players to get involved in the creative side of telling their story. Unlike typical video game RPG's where you play the "hero" to save the "world" in a mostly linear storyline, there is a unique draw to open-world MMO's that is predicated on freedom of choice.
I was a huge fan of the oldschool RPG's such as Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Lufia, Breath of Fire, etc. I enjoyed playing through their stories and roleplaying the characters that they created for the role. When it comes to an open-world MMO, though, the experience starts off much different. You are responsible for creating your own character and forging your own path for an epic adventure. Being able to make a character and backstory that is your own, and then play them in a virtual world, is the stuff that traditional roleplayers only dreamed of. My preference is to play an MMORPG that helps facilitate that freedom of choice when it comes to character development and storytelling. There is no right or wrong choice of what race/class you play or what direction you head off to when you leave your starting city. It's a misconception to think that this concept of "there is no right or wrong choice" is synonymous with every combination effectively being the same, though. I have advocated for exactly the opposite. I prefer for each race to have different starting attributes and meaningful racial passives. Please see the following theory crafting document I put together which was 100% inspired by lore: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18DJpTEde6-G7jxrZHRfFLFhRsU07_WBN8a1WyNmiJPs
Well put 1AD7 I have to agree with this, we want choices to matter, all the way from the race you choose to the class combination with it and the race passive that benefit the class you choose.
Personally, I hope they don't change but I can see how opening up race/class options post-launch is good for a company. I'm actually expecting it to happen down the road. Yet I can't see any benefit of opening up race/class options pre-launch. Not from the POV that choice matters.
"Choice matters but pick whatever you want. You're good!" <- exagerated but it gets the idea across
Tigersin said:"Choice matters but pick whatever you want. You're good!" <- exagerated but it gets the idea across
That's not at all the point, though. I have been pretty consistent in my desire to allow people to make choices for better or worse. This race/class restriction is far closer to what you are suggesting here than what I have been advocating for. "Choice matters, but you can't pick ogre wizards because that would be tough for you. Choice matters, but you can't play a gnome warrior because they don't have a lot of HP. Choice matters, which is why we're pigeonholing you."
Chanus said:stellarmind said:having full blown any race can be any class with no distinctiveness means you might as well not even have races if everyone is the same. we can all just be humans roaming terminus :DYou can create races with meaningful differences without limiting class choice quite easily?
Actually no you cant, and even if their is a way you can figure it out I could easily just say it's better not to do it, because no race would ever make any sense, you might as well throw away all the lore of the game, because it doesn't matter, for one ogres can a tribe orientated races so why would a tribe like race have clerics, or wizards, or enchanters, or any techical mythical class besides shaman. It just doesn't make sense.
The races get to have meaning if they are all dramatically different and you start at the beginning with classes and than all the way to the end which is whatever VR wants them to be, if it epic race quest, specific items that race specific, and all kinds of other things the point is the more they are different in every way is better than make them all the same at the beginning than trying to make them be all different through gameplay, it simply just isn't as meaningful.
Tigersin said:Personally, I hope they don't change but I can see how opening up race/class options post-launch is good for a company. I'm actually expecting it to happen down the road. Yet I can't see any benefit of opening up race/class options pre-launch. Not from the POV that choice matters.
"Choice matters but pick whatever you want. You're good!" <- exagerated but it gets the idea across
Good points you make. I actually see some more race/class combos down the road moreso via expansions with new playable races and a new class here and there. I don’t see universal combos happening. Pantheon is looking so good and I look forward to the newsletter. :)
oneADseven said:"Choice matters, but you can't pick ogre wizards because that would be tough for you."
Why would it be too tough for me? Because Orgres are more difficult or because I'm not smart enough? This feels bad.
No, I get what your saying. Just taking a jab at you for clipping the post. It's fine. <3 I just think it makes more sense to do it later like WOW did. It was pretty successful for them and everyone I knew that played returned to the game for a time. Just going off that. Who knows!
Chanus said:stellarmind said:having full blown any race can be any class with no distinctiveness means you might as well not even have races if everyone is the same. we can all just be humans roaming terminus :DYou can create races with meaningful differences without limiting class choice quite easily?
i'll use wow class for an example here with the priest class. there were very little difference outside the class minus a racial spell exclusive to priests plus whatever racial they had. dwarf priests were insanely good for pvp because of fear ward(race and class specific) and stoneform(race specific). elves had shadowmeld(race specific) which was good for avoiding large spell casts and were given an additional DoT that was exclusive to elf priests(great for shadowpriests). that's just 2 specific abilities that distinguished class and race, yet you didn't see many dwarves because everyone wanted to play the "prettier" races. now you don't even see dwarf priests because any race can perform just as good in the same class.
diversity with reason i'm okay with. diversity for the sake of diversity i'm not okay with.
okay so if i wanted to make dark myr wizards what would i do? simple make then have a bonus to water spells, penality to fire spells. earth and wind they can do normal damage.
a summoner they can't summon fire elementals, bonus to their water elementals
monks? okay sure they aren't use to their legs and lungs so they have a penality to kick and stamina based moves. they can have bonus agility to compensate.
rogues.... ehhhh same as monks, i'm at odds with fishes operating el solo libre, but have bonuses to poison.
druids? they have increase costs of mana, however, they cast faster because plants love water.
Here is my personal opinion on the topic.
I generally agree with oneadseven and others that the current matrix of race/class restrictions doesn't feel quite right based on where the game is today. I am in favor of having some race/class restrictions, but based on the lore behind each race, it feels like there are some combinations missing that could make sense given what we know.
I also feel like humans probably shouldn't get to be everything. I would be perfectly ok if humans were to lose access to Dire Lord and Shaman, as examples.
So, what I would like to see is some tweaking to the matrix. This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Just opening up or closing off some options based on the current lore and class definitions. I actually do not think it would be a good idea to remove all restrictions. Not because I worry about people inadvertently putting their characters at a disadvantage, but because of the opposite. I'm expecting races to have a bit more to them than simply having stat modifiers, and I would want to avoid situations where a racial ability (as an example) could vastly overpower a particular class if chosen. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it's a possibility, and the restrictions potentially help prevent those very unbalancing situations from occurring.
As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
From one race to another, I do feel like there should be some stylistic differences between members of the same class, at least starting out. Each race in Terminus has a unique culture and background, and so that should be reflected in the equipment and skills that are provided to members of that race. That's not to say that someone couldn't travel and learn the customs and skills of other cultures - in fact, I think that should be encouraged. But greater diversity in terms of how characters look and behave in combat is a good thing, both for gameplay and immersion. Plus, allowing each race to have cultural styles opens the door for adding additional, meaningful choices for adventurers to pursue at higher levels.
Finally, as a way to again reflect the unique culture and background of each race, I'm absolutely ok with the idea of having different tradeskill recipes available in different cities. A gnomish blacksmith should be making different things from a human or elven blacksmith anyway. This would just be a reflection of that fact. I would support that even if there were no restrictions on race/classs combinations, because something I want to see in Pantheon is that crafters should be encouraged to travel and learn more about the world in the same way that adventurers are. Again this ties back to the idea of style differences between cultures and diversity. If you meet someone from the other side of the world, it should be obvious that they're from the other side of the world, in the way they dress, the skills and abilities they use, and the traits that they emphasize.
Again, this is just my personal opinionon the topic.
Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
Vandraad said:Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
overpowered and underpowered go hand in hand. you can't have one without the other. there should be tradeoffs. if i'm a frost dwarf i should have a bonus resist to frost damage and take a penality to fire damage. if i didn't have this, why even call me a frost dwarf?
i agree with this thought.
Vandraad said:Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
Very good points, no I wouldn't pick a bad class/race comp cept to troll with my friends and not take the pick seriously, but just to have fun goofing off if I ever did do it basically a permanent at and would probably never reach max level.
I believe people need to bend more to the way VR wants the game to be played, than VR needs to try to bend to the the way the community wants to play it. I'm sorry guys and gals I'm not trying to be mean but if you can simply do anything and be everything you basically just see a bunch of the same thing and very few of the others and it ultimately makes the game look very bland and boring.
Nephele said:Here is my personal opinion on the topic.
I generally agree with oneadseven and others that the current matrix of race/class restrictions doesn't feel quite right based on where the game is today. I am in favor of having some race/class restrictions, but based on the lore behind each race, it feels like there are some combinations missing that could make sense given what we know.
I also feel like humans probably shouldn't get to be everything. I would be perfectly ok if humans were to lose access to Dire Lord and Shaman, as examples.
So, what I would like to see is some tweaking to the matrix. This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Just opening up or closing off some options based on the current lore and class definitions. I actually do not think it would be a good idea to remove all restrictions. Not because I worry about people inadvertently putting their characters at a disadvantage, but because of the opposite. I'm expecting races to have a bit more to them than simply having stat modifiers, and I would want to avoid situations where a racial ability (as an example) could vastly overpower a particular class if chosen. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it's a possibility, and the restrictions potentially help prevent those very unbalancing situations from occurring.
As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
From one race to another, I do feel like there should be some stylistic differences between members of the same class, at least starting out. Each race in Terminus has a unique culture and background, and so that should be reflected in the equipment and skills that are provided to members of that race. That's not to say that someone couldn't travel and learn the customs and skills of other cultures - in fact, I think that should be encouraged. But greater diversity in terms of how characters look and behave in combat is a good thing, both for gameplay and immersion. Plus, allowing each race to have cultural styles opens the door for adding additional, meaningful choices for adventurers to pursue at higher levels.
Finally, as a way to again reflect the unique culture and background of each race, I'm absolutely ok with the idea of having different tradeskill recipes available in different cities. A gnomish blacksmith should be making different things from a human or elven blacksmith anyway. This would just be a reflection of that fact. I would support that even if there were no restrictions on race/classs combinations, because something I want to see in Pantheon is that crafters should be encouraged to travel and learn more about the world in the same way that adventurers are. Again this ties back to the idea of style differences between cultures and diversity. If you meet someone from the other side of the world, it should be obvious that they're from the other side of the world, in the way they dress, the skills and abilities they use, and the traits that they emphasize.
Again, this is just my personal opinionon the topic.
Nephele - I certainly respect your opinions, but I still just disagree. The problem is everyone will have their own justifications for different combos and/or for universal everything. I believe VR has truly put a lot of time, thought, effort, and just beautiful creativity into the matrix and lore of Terminus. I believe they should be proud of what matrix they have made and move forward. I do not think they need to change the lore they have made just as I do not think they need to change the matrix they have made. Everyone may have their own version, but at the end of the day VR has done its lore and matrix. I like VR’s vision, and moving forward is the best thing imo.
The act of leveling up an Ogre Wizard to max level would be considered a long and arduous quest in and of itself, in my opinion. If it feels more appropriate to allow oddities through progeny or betrayal quests, that would be fine too. It's important to not let infantilization ruin our gaming. We don't need to be saved from ourselves. Folks who play responsibly and with purpose shouldn't have their options stunted just because others could potentially make those same choices irresponsibly. Seeing that there will be stat caps in Pantheon, even if you do have the mentality that it all comes down to numbers, an ogre would be able to achieve maximum INT at some point or another if they are convicted. They may need more INT from gear/buffs than other classes and that's fine. It breaks up the monotony of every class wanting the exact same pieces of gear. An ogre could prioritize a certain robe or staff much more than an elf might. An ogre might not need to bother with crafting some STR jewelry to carry extra weight. An ogre wizard might have great situational value due to a racial active/passive ... so again ... even if it comes down to raw numbers, it's important to let players experiment.
Riahuf22 said:Vandraad said:Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
Very good points, no I wouldn't pick a bad class/race comp cept to troll with my friends and not take the pick seriously, but just to have fun goofing off if I ever did do it basically a permanent at and would probably never reach max level.
I believe people need to bend more to the way VR wants the game to be played, than VR needs to try to bend to the the way the community wants to play it. I'm sorry guys and gals I'm not trying to be mean but if you can simply do anything and be everything you basically just see a bunch of the same thing and very few of the others and it ultimately makes the game look very bland and boring.
by that merit, it's just simpler to class restrict the races instead tweaking every little thing to make them distinct while allowing any race to be any class. besides this is a forum where things are MEANT to be discussed. as long as you're pushing sound arguements and with the INTENT of being respectful. it's going to get heated, but at the end of the day we all just want a great mmo to come home to.
Vandraad said:
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
So, I recognize the fact that I have a different perspective from probably 90% or more of MMO players: I believe that these are virtual worlds where we get to have fun and interesting adventures, while the vast majority of people, even in this community, seem to look at them as games to be conquered in the most efficient manner possible. I can't really change people's playstyles, but I will say that it's been my experience in 20 years of MMOs that the people who really make the communities memorable are the ones who are willing to think about their characters and the world as far more than simply a collection of numbers. I will always support goals of the roleplayers, the socializers, and the people who like to take things at their own pace and aren't in a rush to beat everything, because honestly they're the kind of people that we need more of in these games. We may have been conditioned by years of chasing shiny carrots to want to get to them as fast and efficiently as possible but when we do that, we miss everything else that the medium has to offer. Consider this my small act of rebellion against conventional MMO wisdom.
So to answer your question: Yes, I would, if it was a roleplay concept I wanted to have some fun with. It might not be my main, but if it's something I could do that would be a fun challenge, or better yet, get some other players to realize that it's ok to NOT be super efficient all the time if you do it in a fun way, then absolutely.
And to answer the corollary you didn't ask: If I saw someone playing that ogre wizard, and really roleplaying it well and having fun with it, I'd totally bring them along on a group. Even if they weren't as efficient or as effective as a different character might have been. Because I believe it is the adventure we have and the story we create that really matters, not how fast we were able to beat things.
Nephele said:Here is my personal opinion on the topic.
I generally agree with oneadseven and others that the current matrix of race/class restrictions doesn't feel quite right based on where the game is today. I am in favor of having some race/class restrictions, but based on the lore behind each race, it feels like there are some combinations missing that could make sense given what we know.
I also feel like humans probably shouldn't get to be everything. I would be perfectly ok if humans were to lose access to Dire Lord and Shaman, as examples.
So, what I would like to see is some tweaking to the matrix. This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Just opening up or closing off some options based on the current lore and class definitions. I actually do not think it would be a good idea to remove all restrictions. Not because I worry about people inadvertently putting their characters at a disadvantage, but because of the opposite. I'm expecting races to have a bit more to them than simply having stat modifiers, and I would want to avoid situations where a racial ability (as an example) could vastly overpower a particular class if chosen. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it's a possibility, and the restrictions potentially help prevent those very unbalancing situations from occurring.
As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
From one race to another, I do feel like there should be some stylistic differences between members of the same class, at least starting out. Each race in Terminus has a unique culture and background, and so that should be reflected in the equipment and skills that are provided to members of that race. That's not to say that someone couldn't travel and learn the customs and skills of other cultures - in fact, I think that should be encouraged. But greater diversity in terms of how characters look and behave in combat is a good thing, both for gameplay and immersion. Plus, allowing each race to have cultural styles opens the door for adding additional, meaningful choices for adventurers to pursue at higher levels.
"This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing." - but it might. Each of us feels that as long as we are happy with the matrix, it is good. You underestimate the number of opinions. It'll be opened up until every one is happy or it won't be opened up until everyone is happy. You make considerate posts and aren't one to speak for everyone so I know that you're not implying 'everyone' nor that it can be adjusted until just the vocal minority are happy... or that until a few of us are happy.. and we both know that the majority of people haven't and won't be familiar with all of the lore and will want what they want. It might just be an 'all or nothing' thing.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Vandraad said:Nephele said:As long as it doesn't result in overpowered combinations, I'm actually ok with allowing characters to break out of their racial restrictions and change classes later on, through some long arduous quest, or even via the progeny system. I think it would be an absolute blast to see someone roleplaying that ogre wizard. Sure, they might never be as effective as a gnome wizard, but the game is not only about stats and numbers and your parses in combat - and it's wrong to think that it should be. Thus, I see absolutely no reason not to let players do things like this after character creation if they want to do so. It's their choice, after all.
So you don't want overpowered combinations but underpowered combinations are fine? And while you say the game not only about stats, the game runs exclusively on stats. It is all about numbers. Every calculation, every algorithm..everything..is based upon numbers. So while you may not care that your Ogre wizard has the manapool the size of a thimble because its base INT is low, the people in your group could very well care. Players, if they identify a class/race combination as being sub-par, will actively exclude those from their groups. Not everyone, but quite a few. What then happens is people playing these gimped race/class combinations whine to the developers, filling up the forums with thread after thread about how their choice sucks compared to others and needs fixed..when it was clear from the beginning their choice would result in a sub-par character.
I ask this of everyone: Would you, deliberately, play a race/class combination knowing full well that the resulting character will be worse off in nearly every aspect that matters for that class? And then NOT complain to the developers about its lack of effectiveness?
Very good points, no I wouldn't pick a bad class/race comp cept to troll with my friends and not take the pick seriously, but just to have fun goofing off if I ever did do it basically a permanent at and would probably never reach max level.
I believe people need to bend more to the way VR wants the game to be played, than VR needs to try to bend to the the way the community wants to play it. I'm sorry guys and gals I'm not trying to be mean but if you can simply do anything and be everything you basically just see a bunch of the same thing and very few of the others and it ultimately makes the game look very bland and boring.
by that merit, it's just simpler to class restrict the races instead tweaking every little thing to make them distinct while allowing any race to be any class. besides this is a forum where things are MEANT to be discussed. as long as you're pushing sound arguements and with the INTENT of being respectful. it's going to get heated, but at the end of the day we all just want a great mmo to come home to.
The biggest difference here is that the devs have alrdy sorted out the lore of the races, gave definition of the classes and gave you a list of the combinations for everything, and like I said I'm all for race class restrictions and I want it to stay the way that it is. As for basically 95% of the forum topics are mostly about things we don't know or have small ideas of and voice our opinions on them so ideas bounce around and we do a ton of feedback, as for this discussion is alrdy figured out and people want to try to back it better when theirs nothing wrong with it.
And I also believe you read my post wrong, I said I wouldn't do it........unless I was trolling........so in other words I could less if the restriction was there because I more than likely would never do it