Iksar said:The topic at hand is in the same field: "I don't like the lore/anything restricting my choices or how I play/make my character." It pops up no matter what the design is, and you see it on these (and every game forum) for all sorts of things like not liking defined class roles or people wanting specs so they can be DPS warriors etc. "I want to do a thing, I should be able to do it."
You don't imagine how right you are with this analogy :)
Only yesterday I have been flabbergasted by a guy spamming and complaining in the zone chat in Elder Scrolls OL . He has been yelling during more than half an hour that he wanted a slider in the character screen creation which would allow to create a "fluid genre" character . From what I understood he wanted to be able to create a character which would be neither male nor female and which could dynamically change its genre during play .
The crushing majority of those who bothered to comment said that they didn't care for such a slider and that they were fine with gender restrictions. But he was on a crusade , explaining that he sent dozens of mails , complaints , forum posts and tickets to the devs arguing that everybody should like such a slider , that everybody should be free to choose a "fluid genre" and that ultimately the devs were hurting the game and the players by not allowing it . He was outraged that the devs didn't answer his mails confirming that they will start to code his sliders asap :) You could say whatever you wanted , he was just repeating the same things over and over .
Now this race/class debate is all about stats . Every MMORPG decides first on the species/races that will live in the world and this will also define the lore . Then they allocate racial stats to every race and make them generally very different according to the characteristics they imagine for every race (strong/weak , big/small , intelligent/dumb , agile/clumsy etc) . Obviously the differencies in racial stats are there to create diversity in the world. If every PC had the same stats , it would feel like if there was a single race . That in itself is neither intrinsically good nor bad but many people (me included) wouldn't like to play in such a boring world with no racial diversity and no ability diversity .
As every single activity you will be able to do in the world is defined by the stats you have (fighting , hiding , casting spells , crafting etc) , RPGs invented classes which are activity archetypes and are defined by the stats too . High intelligence defines the mana pool and caster classes , high constitution/strength defines tank classes, high agility makes you good at sneaking and evading hits etc . So now as you have 2 meta sets of stats which are mutually orthogonal because race and class are 2 completely independent concepts and finalities , comes the question "Which couples (race,class) will be designed ?"
Of course this choice can be either all/all or some matrix defining restrictions and I think that both choices lead to the same result , e.g some couples will be played little if at all . Yet if the devs choose all/all they know that some couples will be very underperforming because this is the necessary consequence of the choice to have very differentiated racial stats . And they also know what Iksar said that there will necessarily be people who will yell on forums and in game that their Ogre thief doesn't hide well or that their Gnome warrior dies too fast . Symetrically they know that if they make every couple (race/class) equally performant , another category of people will yell saying that the game is bland and that every race feels the same . Damned if you do and damned if you don't . So what is the solution ? Well between 2 evils , choose the lesser one . So they will read a study of player demographics or make a poll and find out that in the segment of players they aim for , the latter category of players is a majority and the former a minority .
So a restriction matrix it will be :)
Deadshade said:
Iksar said:
You don't imagine how right you are with this analogy :)
Only yesterday I have been flabbergasted by a guy spamming and complaining in the zone chat in Elder Scrolls OL . He has been yelling during more than half an hour that he wanted a slider in the character screen creation which would allow to create a "fluid genre" character . From what I understood he wanted to be able to create a character which would be neither male nor female and which could dynamically change its genre during play .
The crushing majority of those who bothered to comment said that they didn't care for such a slider and that they were fine with gender restrictions. But he was on a crusade , explaining that he sent dozens of mails , complaints , forum posts and tickets to the devs arguing that everybody should like such a slider , that everybody should be free to choose a "fluid genre" and that ultimately the devs were hurting the game and the players by not allowing it . He was outraged that the devs didn't answer his mails confirming that they will start to code his sliders asap :) You could say whatever you wanted , he was just repeating the same things over and over .
Now this race/class debate is all about stats . Every MMORPG decides first on the species/races that will live in the world and this will also define the lore . Then they allocate racial stats to every race and make them generally very different according to the characteristics they imagine for every race (strong/weak , big/small , intelligent/dumb , agile/clumsy etc) . Obviously the differencies in racial stats are there to create diversity in the world. If every PC had the same stats , it would feel like if there was a single race . That in itself is neither intrinsically good nor bad but many people (me included) wouldn't like to play in such a boring world with no racial diversity and no ability diversity .
As every single activity you will be able to do in the world is defined by the stats you have (fighting , hiding , casting spells , crafting etc) , RPGs invented classes which are activity archetypes and are defined by the stats too . High intelligence defines the mana pool and caster classes , high constitution/strength defines tank classes, high agility makes you good at sneaking and evading hits etc . So now as you have 2 meta sets of stats which are mutually orthogonal because race and class are 2 completely independent concepts and finalities , comes the question "Which couples (race,class) will be designed ?"
Of course this choice can be either all/all or some matrix defining restrictions and I think that both choices lead to the same result , e.g some couples will be played little if at all . Yet if the devs choose all/all they know that some couples will be very underperforming because this is the necessary consequence of the choice to have very differentiated racial stats . And they also know what Iksar said that there will necessarily be people who will yell on forums and in game that their Ogre thief doesn't hide well or that their Gnome warrior dies too fast . Symetrically they know that if they make every couple (race/class) equally performant , another category of people will yell saying that the game is bland and that every race feels the same . Damned if you do and damned if you don't . So what is the solution ? Well between 2 evils , choose the lesser one . So they will read a study of player demographics or make a poll and find out that in the segment of players they aim for , the latter category of players is a majority and the former a minority .
So a restriction matrix it will be :)
"restriction" is a funny word nowadays. humans view it an inhibitor to overcome. language in which the definition can change is very cumbersome and leads to a lot of misunderstandings >.> maybe i'm just a tree hugging elf, but i like things that draw parallels to the natural world. even to this day, science draws from the model of nature. as long as the "design" of the class/race matrix makes sense in a natural setting and corresponds to lore, i'm in accord.
in following the theme of nature, i'll wrap my final thoughts up with this:
Deadshade said:
Only yesterday I have been flabbergasted by a guy spamming and complaining in the zone chat in Elder Scrolls OL . He has been yelling during more than half an hour that he wanted a slider in the character screen creation which would allow to create a "fluid genre" character . From what I understood he wanted to be able to create a character which would be neither male nor female and which could dynamically change its genre during play .
The crushing majority of those who bothered to comment said that they didn't care for such a slider and that they were fine with gender restrictions. But he was on a crusade , explaining that he sent dozens of mails , complaints , forum posts and tickets to the devs arguing that everybody should like such a slider , that everybody should be free to choose a "fluid genre" and that ultimately the devs were hurting the game and the players by not allowing it . He was outraged that the devs didn't answer his mails confirming that they will start to code his sliders asap :) You could say whatever you wanted , he was just repeating the same things over and over .
Sounds like somebody was trolling as a caricature of a "woke" person.
zoltar said:Darch said:Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
WoW is not nearly all/all as the diagram posted earlier shows. They have expanded the available race/class combos over time to some degree. This is done as a way to market the game expansions to players and keep things fresh. I think most people would be okay with eventually expanding the options in Pantheon as well, but it would be a huge mistake to assume that the trend of increasing race/class options over the life of an MMO has any relevance to the best way to design an MMO at launch.
Out of 13 classes there are only 4 that have stringent race restrictions, and the Demon hunter being a fairly new class will likely have those restrictions expanded just like every other class has... compared to how it was 20 years ago when (like PRotF) only 2 races could be Druid, only 2 races could be Paladin, only 3 races could be Shaman - but now 8 of the 13 races can now be shaman... ect ect ect. My point being that they have relaxed their strict race/class restriction with time.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
@Darch Huh? How is a game (WoW) keeping subscribers when it has been losing MILLIONS of subs in recent years? Hint: Blizzard finally caved and is bringing back Vanilla servers which is not all/all. It’s supply and demand Darch, and clearly mainstream with its ‘all/all’ has undoubtedly been in a downward spiral since. Obviously, EQ-Live and WoW-Live took a very crappy direction. It was not ‘all/all’ when EQ and WoW peaked in glory days. Many things went wrong.
Darch: perhaps it’s not nostalgia at all, but rather poor and bad decisions that were made for the direction of those games........
One could just as easily make the argument that Warhammer Online went from 750k subscribers to (dead game) for not dropping race/class restrictions. Someone could make that argument ... but it would be complete nonsense.
I'm not surprised that there wasn't a single person willing to indulge me on this from a previous page:
oneADseven said:Serious question posed to all:
What would be more immersion breaking?
A highly intellectual/seasoned player who roleplays an Ogre Wizard?
Take it to the extreme. Imagine an Ogre Wizard in-game ... roleplayed to the max as an intelligent being with a firm grasp on concepts of wizardry and magic?
Or ...
A low intellectual/inexperienced player who roleplays an Elven Wizard?
Take it to the extreme. Imagine an Elven Wizard in game ... roleplayed to the max as an intelligent being with a firm grasp on concepts of wizardry and magic?
Wouldn't immersion be completely shattered when the 300 year old Elf says things like: "Doodz, plz help me finish my quest, I gotta log off at 9PM!"
The conundrum for me is that the seasoned/intellectual Ogre Wizard is being artificially restricted from existing. There are plenty of players who could pull off that role with ease and look damn good while doing it. They would add value to my experience. Meanwhile, there are other players who take on the role of an Elven Wizard that totally distort any sense of virtual reality. Should there be a prerequisite IQ or Personality test that must be completed before players are eligible to play certain combinations in the name of immersion? Come on. Immersion is a horrible argument, IMO. Just because someone "looks the part" doesn't make things more realistic. Again ... World > Game. The players are what brings life to the characters, not some made-up stereotype. Cultivate that creativity and you'll find all kinds of interesting characters in the world. You can artificially restrict that from happening but you're absolutely going to chase off some of the great roleplayers in the process. The system, as designed, is self-defeating in many ways.
Don't worry ... I'll wait!
oneADseven said:One could just as easily make the argument that Warhammer Online went from 750k subscribers to (dead game) for not dropping race/class restrictions. Someone could make that argument ... but it would be complete nonsense.
Warhammer-What? LOL.
It is complete nonsense to repeat what went wrong with EQ-Live and WoW-Live; not in Pantheon plz. This includes all/all etc. We have been saying this for years now... mmos took the wrong direction and now we are left with this ‘mainstream.’ Honestly, I don’t have the time to discuss this further with you, but I would recommend digging up old forums from old Everquest, Vanilla WoW, DAOC, GW etc. Talk to people who played at that time and perhaps ask them why they quit. It‘s worth it imo to learn some history and read up on it. Much of what is discussed in Pantheon has been discussed numerous times in old threads over the last 20ish years of mmorpgs. Mmorpgs took the wrong direction and that message stayed pretty consistent over the years.
After reading comments, a few changes might be cool; someone on thread mentioned a Dwarf Ranger. Not a bad idea at all. Good day.
Makes total sense that you would dodge the question and regurgitate the same old baseless stuff. We all have our deal-breakers. If you think people quit playing mainstream MMO's because the idea of seeing an Ogre Wizard in-game was so jarring to their immersion, it is what it is. I don't really buy it. And if there is a single person who would claim that, I'd love to hear their thoughts on the scenario I outlined in the previous post, and whether or not they think it's a good idea to require players to pass an IQ test before they are able to control a character whose race has a naturally high intellect score.
oneADseven said:Makes total sense that you would dodge the question and regurgitate the same old baseless stuff. We all have our deal-breakers. If you think people quit playing mainstream MMO's because the idea of seeing an Ogre Wizard in-game was so jarring to their immersion, it is what it is. I don't really buy it. And if there is a single person who would claim that, I'd love to hear their thoughts on the scenario I outlined in the previous post, and whether or not they think it's a good idea to require players to pass an IQ test before they are able to control a character whose race has a naturally high intellect score.
Excuse me?
Dodge what question? Anyway, I said all/all was one of many factors that ruined those games with millions of sub losses. Feel free to reread. Cheers.
I read what you said and I stand by my statement. If someone would like to indulge me on what I posed as a serious question, I am all ears.
Darch said:zoltar said:Darch said:Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
WoW is not nearly all/all as the diagram posted earlier shows. They have expanded the available race/class combos over time to some degree. This is done as a way to market the game expansions to players and keep things fresh. I think most people would be okay with eventually expanding the options in Pantheon as well, but it would be a huge mistake to assume that the trend of increasing race/class options over the life of an MMO has any relevance to the best way to design an MMO at launch.
Out of 13 classes there are only 4 that have stringent race restrictions, and the Demon hunter being a fairly new class will likely have those restrictions expanded just like every other class has... compared to how it was 20 years ago when (like PRotF) only 2 races could be Druid, only 2 races could be Paladin, only 3 races could be Shaman - but now 8 of the 13 races can now be shaman... ect ect ect. My point being that they have relaxed their strict race/class restriction with time.
Than let pantheon do it "within time" and not right out the gate. Just to make a small grp of people happy, sense I've seen more people be against it than for it anyway.
oneADseven said:One could just as easily make the argument that Warhammer Online went from 750k subscribers to (dead game) for not dropping race/class restrictions. Someone could make that argument ... but it would be complete nonsense.
I'm not surprised that there wasn't a single person willing to indulge me on this from a previous page:
oneADseven said:Serious question posed to all:
What would be more immersion breaking?
A highly intellectual/seasoned player who roleplays an Ogre Wizard?
Take it to the extreme. Imagine an Ogre Wizard in-game ... roleplayed to the max as an intelligent being with a firm grasp on concepts of wizardry and magic?
Or ...
A low intellectual/inexperienced player who roleplays an Elven Wizard?
Take it to the extreme. Imagine an Elven Wizard in game ... roleplayed to the max as an intelligent being with a firm grasp on concepts of wizardry and magic?
Wouldn't immersion be completely shattered when the 300 year old Elf says things like: "Doodz, plz help me finish my quest, I gotta log off at 9PM!"
The conundrum for me is that the seasoned/intellectual Ogre Wizard is being artificially restricted from existing. There are plenty of players who could pull off that role with ease and look damn good while doing it. They would add value to my experience. Meanwhile, there are other players who take on the role of an Elven Wizard that totally distort any sense of virtual reality. Should there be a prerequisite IQ or Personality test that must be completed before players are eligible to play certain combinations in the name of immersion? Come on. Immersion is a horrible argument, IMO. Just because someone "looks the part" doesn't make things more realistic. Again ... World > Game. The players are what brings life to the characters, not some made-up stereotype. Cultivate that creativity and you'll find all kinds of interesting characters in the world. You can artificially restrict that from happening but you're absolutely going to chase off some of the great roleplayers in the process. The system, as designed, is self-defeating in many ways.
Don't worry ... I'll wait!
That like saying would a kind skar paladin make sense no, I don't care that the player behind the keyboard being a good preson it had nothing to do with him, it's about the character I see in the game, as I'm sure about 80% of the people I will be with are going to be good in nature, as well as smart, so if the player is a "bad" player I'm going to just release he is bad. But if a see a ogre wizard that and he is smart to me counterdict itself, because if he was smart he wouldn't of picked him because he ultimately know no matter what he does if he choose a better race it would of benefited him better, so if the player was truly as smart as your saying and picked a ogre he would do it because he was trolling, lime I said I would be if I choose such a thing.
Riahuf22 said:That like saying would a kind skar paladin make sense no, I don't care that the player behind the keyboard being a good preson it had nothing to do with him, it's about the character I see in the game, as I'm sure about 80% of the people I will be with are going to be good in nature, as well as smart, so if the player is a "bad" player I'm going to just release he is bad. But if a see a ogre wizard that and he is smart to me counterdict itself, because if he was smart he wouldn't of picked him because he ultimately know no matter what he does if he choose a better race it would of benefited him better, so if the player was truly as smart as your saying and picked a ogre he would do it because he was trolling, lime I said I would be if I choose such a thing.
I see. Intelligent players aren't allowed to pick Ogre Wizards without trolling. It's sad to see that players have been conditioned to think these things. But wait ... if someone picks an elven wizard, would you assume that they are an intelligent player? Regardless of how they carry themselves in the world, interact with others, and communicate? These restrictions are in place to create an "illusion" that racial essentialism exists. That illusion is going to be shattered every day on every server based on how the players conduct themselves. It's a cool concept (the illusion) but it has never been implemented in a believable way. Unless, of course, someone believes that every Elf they interact with is "highly intelligent" just because the player controlling them decided to select elf as their race. At the same time, they have to be willing to completely ignore any action/communication that contradicts that logic. It basically comes down to saying that it should be believable that Elves are intelligent because of how they look rather than how they act. Sorry ... but no.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:That like saying would a kind skar paladin make sense no, I don't care that the player behind the keyboard being a good preson it had nothing to do with him, it's about the character I see in the game, as I'm sure about 80% of the people I will be with are going to be good in nature, as well as smart, so if the player is a "bad" player I'm going to just release he is bad. But if a see a ogre wizard that and he is smart to me counterdict itself, because if he was smart he wouldn't of picked him because he ultimately know no matter what he does if he choose a better race it would of benefited him better, so if the player was truly as smart as your saying and picked a ogre he would do it because he was trolling, lime I said I would be if I choose such a thing.
I see. Intelligent players aren't allowed to pick Ogre Wizards without trolling. It's sad to see that players have been conditioned to think these things. But wait ... if someone picks an elven wizard, would you assume that they are an intelligent player? Regardless of how they carry themselves in the world, interact with others, and communicate? These restrictions are in place to create an "illusion" that racial essentialism exists. That illusion is going to be shattered every day on every server based on how the players conduct themselves. It's a cool concept (the illusion) but it has never been implemented in a believable way. Unless, of course, someone believes that every Elf they interact with is "highly intelligent" just because the player controlling them decided to select elf as their race. At the same time, they have to be willing to completely ignore any action/communication that contradicts that logic. It basically comes down to saying that it should be believable that Elves are intelligent because of how they look rather than how they act. Sorry ... but no.
I don't care about the person behind the keyboard did you not get? It's all about the game, like if I saw you in the game I don't care that if you are extremely smart, or a kind person, for as long your not a douche to me in the game, just like I don't want to see a ogre wizard because yo me that is game breaking for me, because when I picture a ogre I am imagining a brute that rely a lot of his efforts on his strength, and using types of magic that would make you sick, and things like this
You can keep saying the same thing over and over again like you have been but it doesn't change the fact you want:
All 9 cities to be Fundamentally the same, with the only difference basically how they are built
Completely ignoring the lore just because you WANT to have an all/all game
Having all the races just be a cosmetic feature and basically nothing else as that is basically what all/all is basically about
Do I need to go on or should I also say all the other things you are saying just by trying to say you want an all/allllgo game believe me I can keep going.
Riahuf22 said:I don't care about the person behind the keyboard did you not get?
Yes, this makes perfect sense now. Thank you. Ogres are brutes ... elves are intelligent and crafty ... and no amount of player influence can alter that perception.
Funny how he gets that but not how all/all is a terrible concept and clearly doesn't care about anything else or how it will ruin the game like it had to all the other games it's came in contact with, or is killing. But I guess he will learn the hard way just like every other game that tried to use his philosophy I'm just glad 1AD7 isn't a dev or rip pantheon.
WoW is losing subscriptions more likely because people are sick of the money grabs that prey on human addiction, compared to the race/class matrix. It takes some people longer than others to pick up on, or just be fed up with sleezy sales tactics. Increasing race/class combinations was a tactic used to hold onto/increase player subscriptions because it was originally established for this reason - as a psychological (sleezy) sales tactic of putting the carrot in front of the player. There is no "real" reason to have such a strict matrix other than creating a false desire of a "forbidden fruit" only to later open up the matrix to capatalize on human's pschological desires. Lore is a BS reason for the race/class matrix -shrug- How much money do MMOs make when they open up race transfers after allowing new races for a small $25 fee?
One could "almost" equate these types of sales tactics to a form of "micro-transactions" poised for the future... simply on a horse with a different name.
Riahuf22 said:Funny how he gets that but not how all/all is a terrible concept and clearly doesn't care about anything else or how it will ruin the game like it had to all the other games it's came in contact with, or is killing. But I guess he will learn the hard way just like every other game that tried to use his philosophy I'm just glad 1AD7 isn't a dev or rip pantheon.
I agree. I think what 1AD7/oneADseven is missing is that the Ogre’s deity, city faction, city guards, and city leadership simply do not allow Paladins and Wizards to be followed nor created in their city whereas humans do for example. Ogres also have some racial strengths; arcane is not one of them. VR (and VR’s gods) have already decided this for the most part. There will be rules and factions in this game and that’s why we will be seeing some unique combos. Rules and factions will matter greatly. This is going to be a role playing game.
Darch said:WoW is losing subscriptions more likely because people are sick of the money grabs that prey on human addiction, compared to the race/class matrix. It takes some people longer than others to pick up on, or just be fed up with sleezy sales tactics. Increasing race/class combinations was a tactic used to hold onto/increase player subscriptions because it was originally established for this reason - as a psychological (sleezy) sales tactic of putting the carrot in front of the player. There is no "real" reason to have such a strict matrix other than creating a false desire of a "forbidden fruit" only to later open up the matrix to capatalize on human's pschological desires. Lore is a BS reason for the race/class matrix -shrug- How much money do MMOs make when they open up race transfers after allowing new races for a small $25 fee?
One could "almost" equate these types of sales tactics to a form of "micro-transactions" poised for the future... simply on a horse with a different name.
WoW is losing subs for many reasons including money grabs and all/all. People I personally know have quit WoW for both reasons amongst others, neither of which would be good in Pantheon.
Darch said:WoW is losing subscriptions more likely because people are sick of the money grabs that prey on human addiction, compared to the race/class matrix. It takes some people longer than others to pick up on, or just be fed up with sleezy sales tactics. Increasing race/class combinations was a tactic used to hold onto/increase player subscriptions because it was originally established for this reason - as a psychological (sleezy) sales tactic of putting the carrot in front of the player. There is no "real" reason to have such a strict matrix other than creating a false desire of a "forbidden fruit" only to later open up the matrix to capatalize on human's pschological desires. Lore is a BS reason for the race/class matrix -shrug- How much money do MMOs make when they open up race transfers after allowing new races for a small $25 fee?
One could "almost" equate these types of sales tactics to a form of "micro-transactions" poised for the future... simply on a horse with a different name.
If lore is a BS reason than why even create it, just so you have something to read and be oh I like how that sounds I might want to be this evil little guy and try to do evil things along the way just to find out he can be a paladin? Which is the exact opposite of the entire decription you were picturing in your head when you imagining the race.
Riahuf22 said:If lore is a BS reason than why even create it, just so you have something to read and be oh I like how that sounds I might want to be this evil little guy and try to do evil things along the way just to find out he can be a paladin? Which is the exact opposite of the entire decription you were picturing in your head when you imagining the race.
Lore/history is a GREAT reason to explain why someone would be inclined or adverse to performing a certain career, but absolutely garbage in explaining someone's "absolute inability" to perform a certain job. It doesn't mean that an individual will be great at their career choice, but at least it is their choice. Using an ethnicity's (or whatever you want to call different looking humanoids) history to exclude them from career choices is nothing more than trying to manipulate players into purchasing more of your product in the future by purposely disallowing something today to only make it available later. If you're going to use lore, use it to flush out your roleplayers' characters, not manipulate your fan/playerbase.
Add: You can very easily argue all of the "lore" reasoning for the class/race restrictions... because its not the real reason for the class/race matrix.
Add2: Easy example... first line of the Paladin description: Once a Cleric themselves, the Paladin has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order. Led by their convictions, the Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit
-BAM! Dark Myr Paladin - any Dark Myr lore quoted from "random people's opinions" as to why Dark Myr wouldn't be Paladins is mute from this one sentence... they "set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit"...
Add3 (last one): If I searched hard enough I could find quotes to argue any of the race/class restrictions. With that said, I'm still going to play the game but I am going into it with eyes wide open and not making assumptions based on lore that was created AFTER the class/race matrix. I will sadly say that preventing players from playing what they want is why everyone on these forums are on these forums... because they haven't found a game that lets them do that without being a game shallow in content/purpose. I'm not advocating "all/all", but I am advocating a lot less restriction, in particular for Monk, Paladin, Cleric, Dire Lord, Ranger and Summoner - super immersion breaking. (I could get on board with -although still argue- why someone like a Skar may not be a cheery bard (although death/war chanting and inciting fear could be thing). *shrug*
Great points Darch! Skar can be monks. Being able to navigate through the Gate of Peace, Gate of Balance, and Gate of Joy are considered a class-defining element of playing a monk. Skar are suicidally vicious. Feign Death is a class defining ability for monks. The bigger issue at hand is that these races are being stereotyped and that players are essentially being forced to perpetuate those themes while they play. One could argue that players aren't "forced" to do anything ... and they would be right, which is exactly why this illusion of racial essentialism is ridiculous. Skar can't be bards because that would go against lore ... but will they have a laughing emote? What about a dance emote? Will Skar be artificially prevented from telling jokes or taking the shirt off their back to help an Elf out? Will Dark Myr be artificially restricted from adding players to their friends list? Will gnomes be artificially restricted from looting/trading plate armor? Will races that don't like each other be artificially restricted from treating each other with respect? Give me a break. If the restrictions are removed then there is a broader spectrum for interpretation when it comes to managing our willful suspension of disbelief. If you don't allow for that then many of the common interactions we have in-game should be absolutely jarring to the sense of realism that is being touted as sacred.
World > Game when it comes to this topic.
Yeah, this is boring, I guess I'll just go into hibernation and stop feeding the all/all community any attention in just want to say I'm sorry to the community that actually wants the game to succeed that they had to listen to 15 pages of the people repeating themselves over and over again.
Bye I might come back in a month hopefully by than that topic will be like 15 pages behind by than case obvious everyone must like race strict ion but like 5 people so I guess I'll take that as a win all by itself.
Plus dark myr isn't a holy race so no paladin if your at least trying to prove a point you can at leat try to have it make sense to begin with, and I know 1AD7 will come on and reply and be like why can't a dark myr become holy, it simple they aren't holy and they can try to be good all they want but they will never be holy there's a difference
Riahuf -- let's just agree to disagree. Do me that favor and I promise that I won't quote you or respond to any further messages from you on this thread. You have made your stance clear and I respect that. We are way beyond the point of trying to find a middle ground because you have clearly drawn your line in the sand. There is no need for further debate between you and I.