oneADseven said:. You can artificially restrict that from happening but you're absolutely going to chase off some of the great roleplayers in the process. The system, as designed, is self-defeating in many ways.
Some of the best roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Riahuf22 said:So what wrong with having a rp all/all server and have both options available to everyone?
the reasoning i'd say is core gameplay isn't affected enough like separating pvpers from the pvers. your population suffers if there is another little box for everyone to go into. pvp, pve, rppvp, rppve, all/all pve, all/all pvp, all/allrppve, all/allrppvp.
1. i see the races as species in terminus.
2. i see the class/race matrix as a design choice.
to elaborate: a truck is designed to hull stuff. sure a truck can do city driving, but it's going to suck. you'll have a hard time parking, you have tight roads. lots of stop and go traffic. most ppl in the city aren't going to own a truck.
a eco car is designed to do the opposite. you get the picture. just because you can doesn't mean you should. some choices are just so bad that from a designed perspective, you should just remove it completely. it's the reason why you don't see any trucks in europe. the culture and nature of the vehicle isn't suited for the enviroment.
3. just some minor tweaks to the class/race matrix. ogres are attune to the primordial energies so i think they should be wizards. if strength is going to give me a fat juicy fireball and ogres have bonus to strength, incoming gandalfogre the swol.
it's really up to speculation though. we don't know what stat bonus, racial abilities are going to be in the game. and 4% strength is very marginal with the current numbers game we are seeing. it'll just be a slight distinctive edge. you maybe see a 1% difference in damage between a fireball ogre wizard (assuming strength gives you bonus to fyabawls) and gnome. little do they know gnome wizards will do 4% more damage with arcane than compared to an ogre.
Riahuf22 said:So what wrong with having a rp all/all server and have both options available to everyone?
I think roleplaying (even to a mild degree) should be nurtured as part of the regular MMORPG experience rather than being something specially reserved for RP servers. It doesn't have to be emphasized, specifically, because a lot of players simply don't take it very seriously. At the same time ... it shouldn't be thwarted, either. Pantheon is an intensely social game where reputation is supposed to matter. I'd like to see that embraced as part of the big picture as often as possible. Beyond all that ... there are plenty of roleplayers who prefer having a race/class matrix. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. There are going to be serious roleplayers who want to strictly adhere to the race/class matrix and there are going to be serious roleplayers who want to create their own identity. There are going to be serious non-roleplayers who want to strictly adhere to the race/class matrix and there are going to be serious non-roleplayers who want to create their own identity.
You don't have to be a serious roleplayer to be serious about wanting to play a specific race/class combo as part of the character identity you want to represent in the world. There are plenty of casual roleplayers who prefer standard PVE servers. I just don't think we should try to socially engineer all of this stuff because it would lead to a bunch of people playing on servers that aren't ideal for their playstyle. Imagine an all/all RP server ... and then a bunch of people who have a very mild interest in RP purposely playing there, mostly so they can play the race/class they want. Their mild interest in RP would likely be shunned as a "gimmick" if they don't adhere to whatever other RP rules are established on that server type.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:So what wrong with having a rp all/all server and have both options available to everyone?
the reasoning i'd say is core gameplay isn't strong enough like separating pvpers from the pvers. your population suffers if there is another little box for everyone to go into. pvp, pve, rppvp, rppve, all/all pve, all/all pvp, all/allrppve, all/allrppvp.
1. i see the races as species in terminus.
2. i see the class/race matrix as a design choice.
to elaborate: a truck is designed to hull stuff. sure a truck can do city driving, but it's going to suck. you'll have a hard time parking, you have tight roads. lots of stop and go traffic. most ppl in the city aren't going to own a truck.
a eco car is designed to do the opposite. you get the picture. just because you can doesn't mean you should. some choices are just so bad that from a designed perspective, you should just remove it completely. it's the reason why you don't see any trucks in europe. the culture and nature of the vehicle isn't suited for the enviroment.
3. just some minor tweaks to the class/race matrix. ogres are attune to the primordial energies so i think they should be wizards. if strength is going to give me a fat juicy fireball and ogres have bonus to strength, incoming gandalfogre the swol.
it's really up to speculation though. we don't know what stat bonus, racial abilities are going to be in the game. and 4% strength is very marginal with the current numbers game we are seeing. it'll just be a slight distinctive edge. you maybe see a 1% difference in damage between a fireball ogre wizard (assuming strength gives you bonus to fyabawls) and gnome. little do they know gnome wizards will do 4% more damage with arcane than compared to an ogre.
I wouldn't even split it that far I was just thinking like pvp, pve, rppve and that's it. Nothing like splitting rp 15 different directions
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:So what wrong with having a rp all/all server and have both options available to everyone?
I think roleplaying (even to a mild degree) should be nurtured as part of the regular MMORPG experience rather than being something specially reserved for RP servers. It doesn't have to be emphasized, specifically, because a lot of players simply don't take it very seriously. At the same time ... it shouldn't be thwarted, either. Pantheon is an intensely social game where reputation is supposed to matter. I'd like to see that embraced as part of the big picture as often as possible. Beyond all that ... there are plenty of roleplayers who prefer having a race/class matrix. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. There are going to be serious roleplayers who want to strictly adhere to the race/class matrix and there are going to be serious roleplayers who want to create their own identity. There are going to be serious non-roleplayers who want to strictly adhere to the race/class matrix and there are going to be serious non-roleplayers who want to create their own identity.
You don't have to be a serious roleplayer to be serious about wanting to play a specific race/class combo as part of the character identity you want to represent in the world. There are plenty of casual roleplayers who prefer standard PVE servers. I just don't think we should try to socially engineer all of this stuff because it would lead to a bunch of people playing on servers that aren't ideal for their playstyle. Imagine an all/all RP server ... and then a bunch of people who have a very mild interest in RP purposely playing there, mostly so they can play the race/class they want. Their mild interest in RP would likely be shunned as a "gimmick" if they don't adhere to whatever other RP rules are established on that server type.
So you don't like it because you think people will be shunned for not roleplaying on that server? You realize a ton of people don't roleplay on a roleplaying server right and the roleplayers are used to it. So this whole ordeal you made up doesn't exsist.
And roleplaying on a non replaying server isn't uncommon either so they can be on the normal servers and the non roleplayers are used to it. So again your situation doesn't exsist.
Basically everything in this statement you have said really doesn't exsist unless the player himself doesn't want to do it because they put up a false wall preventing them to not do it.
Riahuf22 said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:So what wrong with having a rp all/all server and have both options available to everyone?
I wouldn't even split it that far I was just thinking like pvp, pve, rppve and that's it. Nothing like splitting rp 15 different directions
but that's the thing, if i provide the means for all/all for one, i have to provide for all/all other server types. equal opportunity for all my fellow terminians!
@187 i'd be totally fine with all/all if they didn't have pvp and pve servers. we'd all be sitting in one big melting pot of openworldness >=D
Riahuf22 said:Than I guess sense that the case let's just not allow all/all at all sense it just doesn't make sense.
i'd like to announce my candidancy for president of the ember elf inquistion. now i know my charisma value isn't up to par, but my consitution and wisdom will make up for my lack in intelligence. i'll leave the strength and agility work to the great men and women of the ashen elf police force. thank you thank you! much love~
Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
i'd partially agree with wow being all/all, however, the trend is to be more restrictive. dh was restricted to 2 races. there are rumors that the next class to be release will also be restricted to 2 races. ppl want to feel special and unique. it's basically saturating the wow forums for sometime now. couldn't tell you about eq though.
sorry if i double posted this image. you can currently see that the additional races have less class choices.
note: i currently don't follow the game and forums anymore. i do watch youtube videos of people talking about the game from time to time. the latest gibber jabber is wanting class/race distinction.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
You realize like all those all/all games have hardly been able to be called a success right? Like neverwinter is close to P2W, DDO has strong fans but is steadily dying, or having a hard time staying even, Aion and RIFT are both selling out and cashing in on their last chips, so tell me how is you bringing up all these other mmorpgs have evolved when they are all worse than WoW and probably to a point EQ, and you think I should believe all/all is better but yet all of them are struggling to stay alive and everyone of those games also share a common feature which is having the same starting point, and not multiple starting homelands either.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:We have moved way past the idea of these things being available at character select. You and I agreed on a compromise 8 pages ago.
That doesn't seem to be the case for most of the arguments people are going back and forth with.
My willingness to continue engaging this topic is mostly centered around the idea that a compromise is in order, and is focused more on principle than practice and procedure. Finding common ground can be difficult on controversial topics like this and it's been rather refreshing to see the debate take its natural course. Not everyone is going to agree on what they consider common ground but it's worth the effort, IMO, to try and make a compelling case that it can be achieved.
You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
Riahuf22 said:You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
i compromise all/all if we can combine pvp and pve servers >;D
Riahuf22 said:Lol VR is more focused on the pve side of the game than the pvp but good luck man lol.
i know it ain't gonna happen. just keep in mind that on a pve server, you can't defend your camp rotation if some shmuck comes to jack your rotation up. if you can take the rotation from my cold dead hands, then the rights are yours, but i'm commin for ya. you best believe it. I"M COMMIN FOR YA>
Riahuf22 said:You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
No, he and I actually agreed on compromise some pages back where "all/all" would be something available to some degree after great efforts by the player after having maxed level on a character with the default available race/class chart, including heavy faction grinds and an involved quest line. Something like part of progeny.
Iksar said:Riahuf22 said:You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
No, he and I actually agreed on compromise some pages back where "all/all" would be something available to some degree after great efforts by the player after having maxed level on a character with the default available race/class chart, including heavy faction grinds and an involved quest line. Something like part of progeny.
i'll just pay extra money to pick a class race combo that is off the beat. lets do it boys. cash shop.
Kellie said:stellarmind said:i'll just pay extra money to pick a class race combo that is off the beat. lets do it boys. cash shop.
*shudders with horror*
"hoh? you think that is scary?"
*pulls out a lootbox*
"in this container is a powerful earring that syronai once wore, however, the magnificent ornate jewelry is not without failsafes! they may contain other trash items you'll never use and will probably sell to a vendor for meager scraps! for a low price of $20 USD plus tax, you can have a chance at owning this exclusive item!"
*all sales are final. we reserve the right to refuse refunds. customer satisifaction not guaranteed.*
Iksar said:Riahuf22 said:You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
No, he and I actually agreed on compromise some pages back where "all/all" would be something available to some degree after great efforts by the player after having maxed level on a character with the default available race/class chart, including heavy faction grinds and an involved quest line. Something like part of progeny.
Yeah, I still don't agree with it, I'm sorry there nothing anyone can say or do to have me agree with all/all even to the point that if Pantheon goes that way I won't play it, it's really just that simple for me.
Riahuf22 said:Iksar said:Riahuf22 said:You've been Givin compromises you simply just look past them because you feel like it all/all should be part of the entire game, you don't want a compromise you've clearly said you want it to be all/all not just all/allllgo on a certain server to fill your needs but the entire game to be all/all because you think it's better it's just that simple you've even said it yourself.
No, he and I actually agreed on compromise some pages back where "all/all" would be something available to some degree after great efforts by the player after having maxed level on a character with the default available race/class chart, including heavy faction grinds and an involved quest line. Something like part of progeny.
Yeah, I still don't agree with it, I'm sorry there nothing anyone can say or do to have me agree with all/all even to the point that if Pantheon goes that way I won't play it, it's really just that simple for me.
You guys relise it's not necessary you agree... you could simply state your preference/side and move on.
Darch said:Riahuf22 said:t roleplayers I have ever met in my entire life played either WoW, and EQ they even were better than my DnD friends that I met almost everyday and both of those games were class restrictive, so imo you are just using a strong want of yours to cloud the fact you think it is self-defeating to try to influence all/all is better when it is all just opinion, and I've even stated to have your own server to support your way of thinking but yet again it wasn't good enough you want the whole game to be your way.
Both WoW and EQ1 are about 20 year old games, and now nearly all/all today... because people have evolved beyond the confines of the library and have discovered the internet. People use to cook popcorn in a pot on the oven, smoking cigaretts was considered cool and using a telephone outside required a phone booth or a car battery. Those games were played on 56k dial up modems when having 128MB of RAM was godlike. I get that people are stuck in the past, and things from the past can be nostalgic and even have their place... like libraries; but lets not compare artificial restrictions of a race/class matrix from 20 years ago with where those games are today... and more importantly, why those games made those changes! Hint: to keep subscribers.
WoW is not nearly all/all as the diagram posted earlier shows. They have expanded the available race/class combos over time to some degree. This is done as a way to market the game expansions to players and keep things fresh. I think most people would be okay with eventually expanding the options in Pantheon as well, but it would be a huge mistake to assume that the trend of increasing race/class options over the life of an MMO has any relevance to the best way to design an MMO at launch.