Another thing that you're forgetting, Riahuff22 is that Brad has also stated that they are notr focusing on PvP at all at the moment, so PvP may never be something that comes into play, although I suspect that it will at some point. There are too many people who prefer PvP to totally ignore it.
Instead of citing something Brad said months or years ago that is barely related to the topic at hand, can we actually discuss the merits of what the title of the thread implies we should be discussing? If you can infer that such a vague statement somehow directly correlates to a topic this minor, you're basically saying that there's no reason we should be discussing these things in the first place.
Variable run speed has nothing to do with anything except variable run speed, so let's try to get back to that, shall we? I'll start us off:
NPCs having variable run speeds can add challenge to the game, and has plenty of opportunity for counterplay by using your own run speed buffs, or debuffs that impair NPC movement.
PCs having variable movement as an intrinsic racial characteristic biases players towards picking a specific race for PvP purposes. If this game will have PvP, this could be a serious imbalance issue, so I'd rather not see it altogether so as to avoid this imbalance.
This is the only relevant thing I have to say in response to the actual topic of the thread.
Kalok said:Another thing that you're forgetting, Riahuff22 is that Brad has also stated that they are notr focusing on PvP at all at the moment, so PvP may never be something that comes into play, although I suspect that it will at some point. There are too many people who prefer PvP to totally ignore it.
Doesn't negate the fact of the races running at all the same speeds, which they will so i have no idea why we are even still arguing about this.
Riahuf22 said:Kalok said:Another thing that you're forgetting, Riahuff22 is that Brad has also stated that they are notr focusing on PvP at all at the moment, so PvP may never be something that comes into play, although I suspect that it will at some point. There are too many people who prefer PvP to totally ignore it.
Doesn't negate the fact of the races running at all the same speeds, which they will so i have no idea why we are even still arguing about this.
SO you havew insider knoweledge that says that or are you speculating like the rest of us?
Kalok said:Riahuf22 said:Kalok said:Another thing that you're forgetting, Riahuff22 is that Brad has also stated that they are notr focusing on PvP at all at the moment, so PvP may never be something that comes into play, although I suspect that it will at some point. There are too many people who prefer PvP to totally ignore it.
Doesn't negate the fact of the races running at all the same speeds, which they will so i have no idea why we are even still arguing about this.
SO you havew insider knoweledge that says that or are you speculating like the rest of us?
It's call common sense, and im honestly done argueing about this becuaee for one is had nothing to do with this thread since it was about player v npc speed and not race v race speed, which im sure if you start one a ton of people will probably say what im saying becuase of the extreme disadvantages the short races will have by not being able to run away like the larger races which would cuase a huge influx of players not playing them races, which is something VR definately doesn't want to happen.
Common sense is rough, but I will say that literally every MMO I've ever played has had an equal base run speed for all races. To do it any differently in Pantheon would require absurd levels of justification, and precedent is assuredly not an available argument there.
Liav said:Common sense is rough, but I will say that literally every MMO I've ever played has had an equal base run speed for all races. To do it any differently in Pantheon would require absurd levels of justification, and precedent is assuredly not an available argument there.
As you are so fond of poointing out.... "Just because it was always that way doesn't mean it should be going forward."
Kalok said:As you are so fond of poointing out.... "Just because it was always that way doesn't mean it should be going forward."
I absolutely agree. Balance is my primary concern. Mostly in PvP, but also in PvE.
Increased movement speed is a huge benefit, especially in a game like Pantheon where your average mob will pose a much higher individual threat than in other games. Being able to train through a zone because you can outrun things could become possible. In EQ, you could group with a Bard or get a buff. Making it entirely self-sufficient lessens the value of run speed buffs, and also invalidates other races.
If you give a race frontal stun immunity (EQ, Ogres) then you're basically setting tanks up to be massively disadvantaged if they don't roll an Ogre. Once Iksar came out and they could wear plate, they became the best race to play for any class that could be one because of their innate regen and AC.
Similarly, with run speed, you can't just give another race a random bonus and call it a day. How do you balance something like that? Combat benefits generally take precedence overall, so it would have to be a non-combat benefit equivalent to the run speed bonus. However, the benefits of a run speed bonus are not easily quantifiable.
I remain unconvinced that a positive outcome can come of this. Cosmetic races all the way.
If everyone seems to want all races to be equal, then why do we even bother with different races at all? Of course there should be different base speeds. I for one think that Humans should be considerd the baseline for everything. We all happen to be humans so we kinda get the idea of speed etc. Generally speaking, all humans really are about the same. There are some fine examples out there that say differently. Usain Bolt I would call fast. But there are also some humans out there that cant even move. Like I said, I am refering to a baseline. So let's set Humans as a baseline of 1 for run speed. Now the Skar - they are something different. Tall lanky plains living creatures of almost pure muscle. They shoul;d definately have a racial bonus to their speed. Call it at 1.2. Ogres? They are simply too massive to get a decent runs speed. I would call them at .8. That sounds like a penalty to them and maybe it is, but let's be truthful here. The cost of that speed penalty is a constitution bonus. I would put their constitution at 1.2 to reflect their bonus to health etc. The myr haven't been runners for all that long. I would give them a penalty to run speed - say about a .9 baseline. But if they are in water? Their movement speed should go up to about 1.5. Dwarves? Also about .9 for run speed. But they get const. bonus and sta bonus to make up for it. The point here is that every race SHOULD be different. That is why there are different races - this game isn't all about eye-candy. I really do trust this team to sort it all out. With all the attributes thay have I can see expanisons for years that include new races. I can't wait for it. As for mob speeds? Well if the mob is of one of the playable races then you have your run speed already figured out. After that it takes simple logic to determine run speeds for everything elese. Prarie lions? You can bet they are going to be faster. Ground Squirrel? They are really fast - for about 30 feet. Treants? Not so much - that's probably why they rely on rooting their targets etc. Once you figure out a baseline for anything, then you can add your modifiers. Class restrictions should affect a few of the classes obvioulsy. So, an Ogre Shaman with Spirit of the Wolf on him might very well outrun a human. Should a Wolf have Spirit of the wolf on him? Why not. Should Spirit of the wolf be pretty much useless on an icefield? I think so. Should Spirit of the Wolf work underwater? No. Spirit of the Dolphin maybe... There is a whole universe out there. Almost nothing is the same. This should be true for the races. But there are a dozen ways you can modify almost anything and make it sensible. ANything that ISN'T snesible? Hell, I say we just call it magic and move on.
Nephretiti said:If everyone seems to want all races to be equal, then why do we even bother with different races at all? Of course there should be different base speeds. I for one think that Humans should be considerd the baseline for everything.
That's a bit of a wall of text so I'll just reply to this part.
I've played almost a dozen MMOs and only one of them had run speed as a racial characteristic. That is EQ2. Even then, it was limited to 2-3 races, and didn't stack with run speed effects, making it a pretty worthless racial trait. In fact, EQ2's racial traits were useless outside of one or two races that people predictably flocked to (Fae and Arasai for PvP, smallest character model and the ability to glide when jumping). Tons of Scouts in EQ2 PvP played this race because of how advantageous it was.
So are you saying in retrospect that EQ, EQOA, Vanguard, and a dozen other MMOs shouldn't have had races because run speed wasn't a racial characteristic? I'm confused.
Movement speed for races shouldn't be messed with. The faster your race is the more healing and damage you are able to do in any fight that requires movement. It's much too powerful of a racial.
Let's say you make skar the fastest. Eventually it will come out that skar make the best healers/ dps/ tanks, and if you aren't skar you are lacking. That's entirely what I believe this game is trying to get seedy from.
Nephretiti said:Snip
Sometimes the way things work in the real world, is not practical, meaningful or even the most important thing - fun - when applied to a game world. Common sense have to be put aside in the interest of creating a fictive world where every race, class and elements within have a sense of purpose without being at the expense of eachother. Once you apply big bonuses or penalties to major aspects of the game such as traveling or the ability to soak damage, or deal damage, you're basically forcing the community to min-max based on the type of player they are.
Just like Clerics being more or less designated healers in EQ, you can end up with scenarios where only Ogres will be considered tanks (better at soaking hits), Gnomes being Wizards (more damage) and so on. At the same whoever do decide to pick up an Ogre (best option for a tank) does so with the penalty of traveling 20 % slower than a regular human. The penalty and race is forced upon him simply because the player wants to be a tank, without even considering the possiblity that he may not even enjoy the appearance and feeling of playing one.
I'm all for races being different beyond appearance, but I think they should remain either fairly minor when it comes to major aspect of gameplay, or allowed to be greater if the racial bonsues applies to minor aspects of gameplay. Runspeed is such a massive part of your overall ability to travel, and travel being a major aspect of the game, I would rather see it be something that is normalized across the board between all the playable races. For NPC's I'm fine with there being exceptions. It adds to the experience when there are certain mobs you have to be particularly cautious for when traversing the world.
You seem to be making it all about run speed. It isn't. I do think some of the races need to be faster. I think some need to be slower. But it isn't just the runs speed. There are other racial benefits to consider. The use of those benfits outwiegh the loss of some penalties. Sure an ogre tank might be slower running across the zone. If he isn't traveling with a bard or shammy. If he doesn't have a speed potion or a blessed pair of boots etc. There are a dozen ways to make him faster. In the Marines we had a saying: Your fire team is only as fast as your slowest person (always the machine gunner, BTW). Same thing here. It won't really matter that 2 guys in the team run faster than the others - you're still only effective when you stay together. If you're in a dungeon you're crawling through together anyways. I do see eventually there will be some traveling overland etc. just trying to get from one city to another etc. I imagine that mounts will have speed that will even out all races as far as travel-only type movement is concerned. Your run speed wont matter then.
In EQ2 the fastest race/class is the Kerra Fury. That being said, the Kerra Fury never runs far ahead of the team and starts a fight by himself.
Another thing to remember is just how many race/class combos are there? How many races can be a mage? How many races can be a cleric? Take a look at the race/class matrix. Another thing to remember is how group intensic this title is. Your speed won't only be affected by your race and class - but by the classes and abilities of those in your group.
Solo PvP is a thing. Traveling is a thing. You're definitely not wrong that your group is only as fast as the slowest player, however, that is only looking at a group-based PvE scenario. There are numerous benefits to individual run speed in a group PvP scenario. In EQ, run speed is a huge benefit. It's the difference between training through an entire zone of equal level mobs and living, or getting demolished by 4 mobs several levels below you.
Most importantly, the decision will be completely arbitrary about what races receive what run speed benefits or penalties. Let's face it, some dev working on EQ2 said "oh look, a cat, I bet he runs fast" and decided to give them the run speed activated ability (which was broken as **** in PvP, btw). Kerrans and Fae/Arasai both received that buff iirc, but yeah, Kerran Fury was still the fastest I believe when Cheetah was active.
I would bet that if racial characteristics are included that aren't limited to crafting or something equally irrelevant to combat that an optimal race will emerge for min/max, and I simply don't want to see it. EQ2's racial characteristics were so terrible in PvE that they might as well have not existed at all, and that is the only reason I was comfortable playing a Ratonga. In a way I was grateful for how bad EQ2's racial characteristics were because I could value aesthetics (and cheese) more than anything else.
Last but not least, good luck introducing a non-run speed characteristic for other races that is somehow equally valuable. EQ2 most certainly failed to do it.
Nephretiti said:You seem to be making it all about run speed. It isn't. I do think some of the races need to be faster. I think some need to be slower. But it isn't just the runs speed. There are other racial benefits to consider. The use of those benfits outwiegh the loss of some penalties. Sure an ogre tank might be slower running across the zone. If he isn't traveling with a bard or shammy. If he doesn't have a speed potion or a blessed pair of boots etc. There are a dozen ways to make him faster. In the Marines we had a saying: Your fire team is only as fast as your slowest person (always the machine gunner, BTW). Same thing here. It won't really matter that 2 guys in the team run faster than the others - you're still only effective when you stay together. If you're in a dungeon you're crawling through together anyways. I do see eventually there will be some traveling overland etc. just trying to get from one city to another etc. I imagine that mounts will have speed that will even out all races as far as travel-only type movement is concerned. Your run speed wont matter then.
It wasn't just about runspeed, but considering the topic of the discussion it makes sense to make it the focal point of the discussion. The impact of slower and faster moving races essentially comes down to the frequency and length of by-foot travel. If majority of travel is either done by coaches, teleportation or mounts, it only has a minor impact on gameplay. If however we mainly end up traveling by foot, being 20 % slower is a massive disadvantage both in terms of safety and time spent traversing. Even if you have various ways to increase movement speed, those buffs also applies to an already baseline faster race, which means that the penalty stays pretty much relatively the same. Unless of course you make speed buffs affect slower races more, or put an easily reachable cap on movement speed.
In EQ2 the fastest race/class is the Kerra Fury. That being said, the Kerra Fury never runs far ahead of the team and starts a fight by himself.
Unless I remember wrong, most of race movement speed buffs do not stack with most of personal/class buffs in EQ2. There's also a distinction between in-combat and out of combat movement speed. In combat, your movement speed goes to baseline unless you're playing a particular class having in-combat movement speed such as the Fury or Bards. Some races might have had 5 % in-combat speed as a racial, which is minor enough to not have a significant impact on gameplay. Especially considering most of map travel happen by mounts and/or automated travel.
He's probably talking about Kerran's in-combat run speed racial and Cheetah combined, but I can't remember. Haven't played EQ2 in 3ish years.
At the very least I distinctly remember their out of combat speed being the fastest as well with their racial combat ability. It may have been a stacking thing unique to Kerrans or I may just be misremembering.
Not that it's particularly relevant.
Kerrans get +5% movement speed bonus if you select it as a racial trait.
Furies get spirit of the wolf and spirit of the cheetah - Cheetah being hte fastest of the two but takes longer to get
Kerrans also get a 30 second buff called Feral Rage - which is a 50% speed buff
those three things actually stack.
Log on to the new special server and give it a run of about 20 levels. It isn't even close compared to anyone else. Running at 79% run speed bonus when the server is currently locked to 29% mount speed? But as you can see from these posts, there were other reasons to play other races. The entire game is NOT locked in as Kerra only.
But honestly, thats only one reason I choose Kerra in EQ2. They also get innate tracking as a race - which is pretty cool for a non-scout. And they get Sonic Vison. By iteself it isn't all that great, but if you cast infra vision on top of that you get a vision type that really makes things pop while under water, thusly making all those underwater quests better. I have chosen to playa human illy a few times just so that I could use the special Human skill called diplomacy (used to drop encounter agro distance to 0 for a short time) - but then they changed that spell to be useless.
Log on to the new special server and give it a run of about 20 levels. It isn't even close compared to anyone else. Running at 79% run speed bonus when the server is currently locked to 29% mount speed? But as you can see from these posts, there were other reasons to play other races. The entire game is NOT locked in as Kerra only.
I don't really remember much of the specifics of older day EQ2 other than remembering that Feral Rage was a hot talking point, since it was so much more useful than other race specific abilities. Even if it's only a temporary movement buff. It was particularly dumb in PvP, back when - I think - it even worked while locked in combat.
As far as class specific mechanics is conerned, I think that's a complete different discussion. Classes need to play dramatically diffierent in some cases, otherwise the point of various classes becomes obselete. I'm much more okay with making a Ranger or whatever innately faster than a Warrior, than I am in making Skars significantly faster than say an Ogre on the premise that it makes logical sense. I'm not opposed to some races have movement speed racials all together, but I think it needs to be minor, and in a place it would matter for a serious min-maxer, but not make any significant difference in how the game plays overall, allowing players to generally pick their race based on appearance and lore instead.
Nephretiti said:You seem to be making it all about run speed. It isn't. I do think some of the races need to be faster. I think some need to be slower. But it isn't just the runs speed. There are other racial benefits to consider. The use of those benfits outwiegh the loss of some penalties. Sure an ogre tank might be slower running across the zone. If he isn't traveling with a bard or shammy. If he doesn't have a speed potion or a blessed pair of boots etc. There are a dozen ways to make him faster. In the Marines we had a saying: Your fire team is only as fast as your slowest person (always the machine gunner, BTW). Same thing here. It won't really matter that 2 guys in the team run faster than the others - you're still only effective when you stay together. If you're in a dungeon you're crawling through together anyways. I do see eventually there will be some traveling overland etc. just trying to get from one city to another etc. I imagine that mounts will have speed that will even out all races as far as travel-only type movement is concerned. Your run speed wont matter then.
In EQ2 the fastest race/class is the Kerra Fury. That being said, the Kerra Fury never runs far ahead of the team and starts a fight by himself.
Another thing to remember is just how many race/class combos are there? How many races can be a mage? How many races can be a cleric? Take a look at the race/class matrix. Another thing to remember is how group intensic this title is. Your speed won't only be affected by your race and class - but by the classes and abilities of those in your group.
You can easily make them different without even touching run speed, in so many ways like certain races are better using certain types of weapons, and such, there is no need to make one race faster than another unless if it was a limited buff they could give themselves, becuase when it comes to a PvP enviroment is simply wouldn't work becuase like 50% of the pop would pick the fastest race so they could either chse or get away from other players, which is why when it comes to something like this it needs to remain the same. You can change basically alot of things about them and make them different, but changing their run speed pre race is a bad example.
Lots of interesting thoughts here. Personally, I think run speed is such as massive influence on gameplay that it should NOT be adjusted as a racial trait. I do think it presents serious "balance" challenges both initially and on an ongoing basis.
It is also much harder for the developers to tune content appropriately when run speed varies across the players. I'd prefer the simple approach here of consistent run speed and utilizing other characteristics to make races unique.
Ok well... as Liav pointed out once before... I guess I will only post on topic and not this arbitrary topic of race vs race run speed ordeal.
Yes, NPC speeds should be different than player speeds. It forces players to be concious of their surrounding and properly plan for a battle with known or unknown enemies. If move speed buffs would guarentee your surival, it would make it a necessity in battle. Also with the disposition system, if a quick mob happened to be easily frightened and takes off running away halfway through the battle, if you weren't on your toes with your butthole puckered, you are now!
Furthermore, the mention of slower moving mobs like slimes and goos and such is entirely possible. Give them some adaptive disposition that if they realize they are being kited (cannot seem to get within X distance of their target), make them hide out of line of sight, change stances to ranged attack, or find a new target if available (obviously not being to cycle between kiting players).
Many things can be done with adding a new disposition and they have made it so easy to implement a new disposition they could probabaly just write one saying, "Hates Dwarves", and have it ALWAYS attack the dwarf, no matter what hehe. "Ow this hooman hit me.. i should hit him back... oh wait, A DWARF!!!! I HATE DWARF!!!".
Anyways, back to what I was saying. NPCs should definitely have different run speeds than players in all variations; slower, slow, normal, fast, faster. There is no inbalance issue that cant be solved with the creation of a clever and well thought out disposition and skill set.
For what it is worth - I also loved playing an Sk. I would be fully for a combat ability like...
Shoulder Charge - duration 2 seconds, increase run speed by 100%, recast 3 min - hiutting target causes X damage and increases agro by Y% Damage based on distance covered before the hit. Shield adds to damage but not required.