Kalok said:Liav said:Kalok said:I disagree.... In early EQ, mobs could run faster than characters under the right circumstances and characters ran at different speeds. More than once I played cannon fodder so that the shorter characters had a chance at getting away. My HEF Rogue would sit there and take a beating, and usually die, so that others could live. That was part of the fun. And no, I wasn't voted to do it. I chose to do it so that they could get away.
This is misinformation. All players in EQ have the same base run speed, and they always have.
Interesting.... I distinctly recall having to stop and wait for Gnomes, Haflings, and Dwarves to catch up frequently.
The only thing that changed run speed (other than spells) was jumping and strafing.
Porygon said:Kalok said:Liav said:Kalok said:I disagree.... In early EQ, mobs could run faster than characters under the right circumstances and characters ran at different speeds. More than once I played cannon fodder so that the shorter characters had a chance at getting away. My HEF Rogue would sit there and take a beating, and usually die, so that others could live. That was part of the fun. And no, I wasn't voted to do it. I chose to do it so that they could get away.
This is misinformation. All players in EQ have the same base run speed, and they always have.
Interesting.... I distinctly recall having to stop and wait for Gnomes, Haflings, and Dwarves to catch up frequently.
The only thing that changed run speed (other than spells) was jumping and strafing.
And in the early days of EQ1, packetloss and network lag did play a huge part. Framerates also had an effect though it was quite small.
after reading some of your thoughts i think that run speed should be the same but sprint speed which is a short burst should vary dependent race, class and stats.
Whats the difference between a race or class having a short burst of speed that is faster then another especially in a world where another class might have a spell that increases there speed or have a snare to slow an enemy down?
In any event i do think that everyones default auto run should be the same for traveling purposes.
I really do hope that there will be varying speed for npc mobs. Many of which may be faster than players with run speed augmentation.
What is the reason that race choice should influence movement speed? I think that is the question that needs answering before we jump to something that everyone can get, like a buff.
There is a huge fundamental difference between an intrinsic racial characteristic and a buff.
Looking at the legs of the Skar I can imagine that these are made for running faster using that extra joint. However, this might just be a cosmetic thing where a designer thought "this is cool", but should not affect gameplay. But that might be a reason why Skar should be able to run faster.
However, I don't think different runspeed for different playable races is a good thing. Runspeed is pretty fundamental: Faster travel, better escape, kiting, pulling, etc, even more when it comes to PVP. And even if it is just 1%, that will scale with runspeed buffs.
I like the thought of mob speeds being varied as long as there are options for us to avoid aggro or escape if we are skilled/prepared.
Certain animals should expend energy so quickly they give up after a certain point. Think cheetas, fastest animal on earth but they are not built to maintain speeds for long periods. Maybe your group could use such tactics to your advantage tiring out the mo b before it can get to camp!(I know thats asking a lot lmao) other animals you could just leisurely stroll into a town and let the guards handle it!
Liav said:What is the reason that race choice should influence movement speed? I think that is the question that needs answering before we jump to something that everyone can get, like a buff.
There is a huge fundamental difference between an intrinsic racial characteristic and a buff.
Halflings have effortless stealth in there description. An intrinsic racial characteristic which is very advantageous! I would suspect that a Dark Myr could have a faster sprint swim then other races. And could probably maintain it for longer.
I could see that races with longer legs which enables a longer stride be able to sprint faster then a dwarf for example. However maybe dwarfs while haveing a slower sprint do not tire as quickly from sprinting thus able to do so for longer.
As long as all the intrinsic racial characteristics balance out pros and cons i see no issue with sprint speeds which are short duration bursts of speed being different.
I believe the default run speed and walk speeds should be the same just for party cohesion purposes. A sprint is a short duration burst of speed which drains your endurance rapidly.
A human can only sprint all out for a few seconds before tiring. A cheetah can do an all out sprint for 60 seconds!
I'm not against intrinsic racial characteristics as a whole. When you say "pros and cons", this is mainly what I'm trying to address.
Every game I've played that has had innate racial passives has distributed them in a seemingly arbitrary manner in which an optimal race for a given role emerges. While Pantheon does not necessarily have to follow in suit, I have to wonder if the reason behind this is because it is extraordinarily difficult to balance without delving into an incalculable number of variables.
For players who care about min/max, you're pigeonholed.
The same can be said about class picked. In some games there may be several dps classes several tank classes several healing classes and there usually results an optimal specific class that is best for that role...
Its a balancing act but i do not think its insurmountable.
Class abilities may also activate movement based abilities such as a charge or burst of speed or teleport etc...
I personally do not believe a activated sprint which lasts a short duration such as seconds is going to bring about an optimal race for a particular role for a tank, dps, healing or cc.
Hopefully the devs are smart enough to not give a player race an innate stun immunity which just may make such race and ideal tank!
Base starting stats and more importantly max stat limits which differ from race to race are more liable to make a particular race becoming optimal for a particular role.
Liav said:What is the reason that race choice should influence movement speed? I think that is the question that needs answering before we jump to something that everyone can get, like a buff.
There is a huge fundamental difference between an intrinsic racial characteristic and a buff.
That's easy. Taller people have a logner gait, and can therefore run faster. It's stilly that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf can run as fast as the taller races over-all. I bet you run faster than people significantly shorter than you do.
Riahuf22 said:IMO all NPC'x should be slighty faster than us, that why the pullers have to pull smarter than normal, and if they have a SoW(EQ reference) and we do as well they are still slgihty faster than us, for the same reaosn.
I agree. NPC should range from slightly faster, to way faster. The only way they could get away with slower npcs is if they were highly resistant to being kited, could pull the player in or teleport on top of them, or had something like a ridiculous amount of health. Otherwise they'd just be exploited for ez experience.
Kalok said:That's easy. Taller people have a logner gait, and can therefore run faster. It's stilly that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf can run as fast as the taller races over-all. I bet you run faster than people significantly shorter than you do.
Realism is not a justification for game mechanics. That's probably been thoroughly explored in at least 3 dozen threads on these forums.
Not going to bother replying anymore if "realism" is the best anyone can offer.
Liav said:Kalok said:That's easy. Taller people have a logner gait, and can therefore run faster. It's stilly that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf can run as fast as the taller races over-all. I bet you run faster than people significantly shorter than you do.
Realism is not a justification for game mechanics. That's probably been thoroughly explored in at least 3 dozen threads on these forums.
Not going to bother replying anymore if "realism" is the best anyone can offer.
I have to agree with Liav, for one was a taller race will have a bigger stride, but the shorter races will make more strides to quicker succession, or therefore they could ultimately run in the same speed, for one i "real life" i stand at 6'1 and i know in the army i had a ton of people that ran a heck of a lot faster than i did and i was running 2 miles in 12:45 minutes, so your whole being taller means to run faster is completely flawed
Riahuf22 said:Liav said:Kalok said:That's easy. Taller people have a logner gait, and can therefore run faster. It's stilly that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf can run as fast as the taller races over-all. I bet you run faster than people significantly shorter than you do.
Realism is not a justification for game mechanics. That's probably been thoroughly explored in at least 3 dozen threads on these forums.
Not going to bother replying anymore if "realism" is the best anyone can offer.
I have to agree with Liav, for one was a taller race will have a bigger stride, but the shorter races will make more strides to quicker succession, or therefore they could ultimately run in the same speed, for one i "real life" i stand at 6'1 and i know in the army i had a ton of people that ran a heck of a lot faster than i did and i was running 2 miles in 12:45 minutes, so your whole being taller means to run faster is completely flawed
It's not flawed....
GENERALLY speaking, people with a longer stride can run faster than people with a shorter stride. Period. THere are execeptions to that rule, just liker all rules.
Just because you guys are already wanting to turn this game into a clone of the WoW mindset, rather than something closer to the mindset of the original EQ and VCanguard (before SoE horribly screwed it up), doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Welre LOOKING FORWARD to a challenging game. Not a game that hands us everything in a silver platter.
Edited: I inserted it into a quote.
Kalok said:Riahuf22 said:Liav said:Kalok said:That's easy. Taller people have a logner gait, and can therefore run faster. It's stilly that a Gnome, Halfling, or Dwarf can run as fast as the taller races over-all. I bet you run faster than people significantly shorter than you do.
Realism is not a justification for game mechanics. That's probably been thoroughly explored in at least 3 dozen threads on these forums.
Not going to bother replying anymore if "realism" is the best anyone can offer.
I have to agree with Liav, for one was a taller race will have a bigger stride, but the shorter races will make more strides to quicker succession, or therefore they could ultimately run in the same speed, for one i "real life" i stand at 6'1 and i know in the army i had a ton of people that ran a heck of a lot faster than i did and i was running 2 miles in 12:45 minutes, so your whole being taller means to run faster is completely flawed
It's not flawed....
GENERALLY speaking, people with a longer stride can run faster than people with a shorter stride. Period. THere are execeptions to that rule, just liker all rules.
Just because you guys are already wanting to turn this game into a clone of the WoW mindset, rather than something closer to the mindset of the original EQ and VCanguard (before SoE horribly screwed it up), doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Welre LOOKING FORWARD to a challenging game. Not a game that hands us everything in a silver platter.
Edited: I inserted it into a quote.
LOL for one in EQ Ogre's did not run faster than dwarves, or gnomes, or halflings, everyone ran at the same speed, and if you play on a pvp server than hardly annyone would place anything but the biggest races so they would have the best run speed. So your whole wanting Races to run at different run speeds in completely flawed and unfair to anyone else wanting to be anything else but the largest race, and making the races run at the same speed doesnt have anything to do with making another WoW game, becuaee like i said EQ did this as well. I could understand if you can get something that can make you run faster like JBoots, but other than that the natural run speed on races need to be the same, becuase if your going to use the larger races need to run faster than shorter races, i could simply counter that orge's need to run slower than everyone else becuase they are either made like a brick house, which usually aren't fast runners or completely fat and out of shape, which therefore cant run very fast, you pick your choice.
Liav said:Kalok's Law: As a Pantheon forum discussion grows longer, the probability of being accused of wanting to turn Pantheon into a WoW clone approaches 1.
Says the guy who seems to want to do exactly that. Any mechanic that seems to harken back to the old days of 'pre Luclin' EQ is bad and must noty be allowed to be in this game, per Liav.
You seem to be dead set against this being a challenging game.
Kalok said:Liav said:Kalok's Law: As a Pantheon forum discussion grows longer, the probability of being accused of wanting to turn Pantheon into a WoW clone approaches 1.
Says the guy who seems to want to do exactly that. Any mechanic that seems to harken back to the old days of 'pre Luclin' EQ is bad and must noty be allowed to be in this game, per Liav.
You seem to be dead set against this being a challenging game.
All i can really say to this is that Brad Mcquaid made it extremely clear that this isn't going to be anything like EQ or Vangaurd, he has said this so many times. He's fine with us using references of EQ and VG becuase that is games we know that he has made, but to think they are going to be similair to this game isn't going to be true. He's mentioned its going to be a Modern MMO, and i got a good feeling that races are all going to be running at the same speed, becuase like i said in a pvp world that too huge of an advantage for large races to have on the shorter races when it comes to either chasing or running away from someone. plus in a PvE world if i was a Ogre and was grouped with a bunch of dwarves and a bear was chasing us i would have a huge advantage getting away knowing the bear would more than likely kill the slower targets first and giving me a huge advantage of getting away.
Riahuf22 said:Kalok said:Liav said:Kalok's Law: As a Pantheon forum discussion grows longer, the probability of being accused of wanting to turn Pantheon into a WoW clone approaches 1.
Says the guy who seems to want to do exactly that. Any mechanic that seems to harken back to the old days of 'pre Luclin' EQ is bad and must noty be allowed to be in this game, per Liav.
You seem to be dead set against this being a challenging game.
All i can really say to this is that Brad Mcquaid made it extremely clear that this isn't going to be anything like EQ or Vangaurd, he has said this so many times. He's fine with us using references of EQ and VG becuase that is games we know that he has made, but to think they are going to be similair to this game isn't going to be true. He's mentioned its going to be a Modern MMO, and i got a good feeling that races are all going to be running at the same speed, becuase like i said in a pvp world that too huge of an advantage for large races to have on the shorter races when it comes to either chasing or running away from someone. plus in a PvE world if i was a Ogre and was grouped with a bunch of dwarves and a bear was chasing us i would have a huge advantage getting away knowing the bear would more than likely kill the slower targets first and giving me a huge advantage of getting away.
He has ALSO said that this game is going to be an homage to the old games with similar gameplay for those of us who are looking for that "old school MMO" experience. The bear wouldn't kill the slower targets if YOU were the one with aggro and not them. You seem to forget that aggro plays a large part in this game to determin who the mobs are beating on.
It won't attach them until you lose aggro/zone. That's also how trains worked in EQ.