oneADseven said:Death is supposed to sting, but not be so severe that it discourages people from taking risk. Spirit power provides a resource that always encourages players to take on risk (you have to kill stuff to acquire it, and the harder it is based on several factors, the more it awards) that you also stand to lose. There is a scaling slider associated with the amount you would lose upon death to reinforce just how important it is to avoid it. This would reset daily so that you never find yourself in a hole you can't climb out of. There is an additional scaling slider associated with the cost to bank this resource, and that's basicaly a way to prevent people from banking it leisurely which would diminish the value of having it on your person. The more often you bank it, the more you will have to pay. This would also reset, but weekly (maybe longer?) to ensure that players are able to make consistent use out of the system without going completely broke. There is a great degree of strategy with how you would maximize the efficiency of this system that involves avoiding death and various ways of tactfully using your time.
The main issue is I would just spend all the Spirit resource before we did our 400 death zerg raids, as would everyone else. EQ penalties didn't stop people from taking risk, it stopped people from being reckless and mass death abuse. People will just game any sort of alternate system. I never had these issues with deleveling and dying in general, not sure where VR/people are coming from with this stuff. It really isn't hard to assemble a group of good players that you can trust.
Zircon said:oneADseven said:Death is supposed to sting, but not be so severe that it discourages people from taking risk. Spirit power provides a resource that always encourages players to take on risk (you have to kill stuff to acquire it, and the harder it is based on several factors, the more it awards) that you also stand to lose. There is a scaling slider associated with the amount you would lose upon death to reinforce just how important it is to avoid it. This would reset daily so that you never find yourself in a hole you can't climb out of. There is an additional scaling slider associated with the cost to bank this resource, and that's basicaly a way to prevent people from banking it leisurely which would diminish the value of having it on your person. The more often you bank it, the more you will have to pay. This would also reset, but weekly (maybe longer?) to ensure that players are able to make consistent use out of the system without going completely broke. There is a great degree of strategy with how you would maximize the efficiency of this system that involves avoiding death and various ways of tactfully using your time.
The main issue is I would just spend all the Spirit resource before we did our 400 death zerg raids, as would everyone else. EQ penalties didn't stop people from taking risk, it stopped people from being reckless and mass death abuse. People will just game any sort of alternate system. I never had these issues with deleveling and dying in general, not sure where VR/people are coming from with this stuff. It really isn't hard to assemble a group of good players that you can trust.
Anyone would be free to spend all the Spirit gained as you suggested, gaiming the system is the nature of the beastie. Still...consider that once max LvL is acheived a charater gains nothing. They're in a sort of limbo unti such time a new expansion arrives, which may be quite some time.
In priciple I do think Spirtual conversion may be a good idea. My disagreement is perhaps, more with implementation. I read the point allocation system for various mobs that would give it. Seems to me stilted in favor of people in the larger raiding guilds, especially since it looks like Pantheon will have competative raiding which by it's nature locks people out, since those mobs would give far more Spirit. I would prefer something more smoothed out so that Spirit could be equally gained. I've been thinking about it and can't think of a viable solution. Does anyone here have any ideas how it could be reasonably done? I would be far easier for it to work if Pantheon would have a community quest and raid system because, then any arguement would be moot. Everyone would be on equal footing.
Anyone would be free to spend all the Spirit gained as you suggested, gaiming the system is the nature of the beastie. Still...consider that once max LvL is acheived a charater gains nothing. They're in a sort of limbo unti such time a new expansion arrives, which may be quite some time.
In priciple I do think Spirtual conversion may be a good idea. My disagreement is perhaps, more with implementation. I read the point allocation system for various mobs that would give it. Seems to me stilted in favor of people in the larger raiding guilds, especially since it looks like Pantheon will have competative raiding which by it's nature locks people out, since those mobs would give far more Spirit. I would prefer something more smoothed out so that Spirit could be equally gained. I've been thinking about it and can't think of a viable solution. Does anyone here have any ideas how it could be reasonably done? I would be far easier for it to work if Pantheon would have a community quest and raid system because, then any arguement would be moot. Everyone would be on equal footing.
Note: the reason for this edit is because I did not properly position it after the /blockquote and my text merged some how with Zircon's. Now my text is easily identified as being from me.
Zircon said:oneADseven said:Death is supposed to sting, but not be so severe that it discourages people from taking risk. Spirit power provides a resource that always encourages players to take on risk (you have to kill stuff to acquire it, and the harder it is based on several factors, the more it awards) that you also stand to lose. There is a scaling slider associated with the amount you would lose upon death to reinforce just how important it is to avoid it. This would reset daily so that you never find yourself in a hole you can't climb out of. There is an additional scaling slider associated with the cost to bank this resource, and that's basicaly a way to prevent people from banking it leisurely which would diminish the value of having it on your person. The more often you bank it, the more you will have to pay. This would also reset, but weekly (maybe longer?) to ensure that players are able to make consistent use out of the system without going completely broke. There is a great degree of strategy with how you would maximize the efficiency of this system that involves avoiding death and various ways of tactfully using your time.
The main issue is I would just spend all the Spirit resource before we did our 400 death zerg raids, as would everyone else. EQ penalties didn't stop people from taking risk, it stopped people from being reckless and mass death abuse. People will just game any sort of alternate system. I never had these issues with deleveling and dying in general, not sure where VR/people are coming from with this stuff. It really isn't hard to assemble a group of good players that you can trust.
Being able to spend/bank the resource is a part of mitigating the risk and thus continue to make the world enticing. Ideally, the items would be expensive, so just randomly spending it all the time wouldn't get you much more than a consumable of some sort. Banking it would make the most sense so that you can save toward more expensive rewards. Banking the resource would cost money. This introduces a valuable plat sink to the game. Balancing this cost would be critical but if it's done correctly, players would indeed fear death at any given moment that they are carrying this resource on their person. Since carrying the resource on your person is directly tied into adventuring, and travel is meaningful ... it's not like you can just bank it freely. I would imagine only being able to deposit it at certain vendors. It would be possible that these NPC's could be off the beaten path as well so that there is no super simple way to access them.
There are so many options here that can add weights to the balance. You mentioned you would just make the deposit before any scary raid. Okay, granted. Team responds and sets limitations to how often this can be deposited. What's your next move? If it costs you several plat to bank this resource, and you only have 400 on you, are you going to spend that much? I mentioned several times that banking this would come at a cost so if that cost can be balanced then the notion of just freely banking it "leisurely" goes out the window. That waters the system down. Having the spirit power on your person is when you are most succeptible to loss, so preventing people from unloading it as they please needs to be integrated into the system.
The more I have thought about it the more I realize I am not in favor of the idea because I really don't want an overly punishing death system. I want the game itself to be challenging but I don't want it to be punishing. EQ was more or less fine for me (mostly because I was an early teen at the time and had nothing but free time to kill anyway) but looking at that now it could be a bit harsh. If you didn't have a max XP rez you were looking at hour(s) of lost progress, which today would mean one death is the loss of an entire play session for many many people. The problem being that death is a poor indicator of personal skill as I think more often than not your death is the result of other people. The tank messed up holding aggro, the healer messed up his heals or had an emergency and had to run out of the room, someone trained your group, etc.
I think the game can be entirely challenging even if death doesn't make you tear your hair out and even if you don't get a max exp rez that you don't lose more than an hours worth of progress and you have to make it back to your corpse. Thus the idea that there needs to be more on the line when you hit level 50 is lost on me, especially if you can level up to level 50.99 and then are still able to lose exp. Sure you have the entire time from release to an expansion with a level cap increase to get any losses back, but you have that on any other level all the same with no de-leveling. I'd like for my girlfriend to be able to play the casual grouping part of this game with me and she isn't particularly amazing when it comes to games. I really don't want crazy death punishment putting her off from the game or getting her overly raged at by players for making some mistakes here and there.
So I don't know how to make people always fear/respect death but at the same time not induce anger and/or depression. I mean, you fear/respect death in a challenging game like Dark Souls but you technically lose nothing if you make it back to your corpse without dying again.
Risingmist said:Zircon said:oneADseven said:Death is supposed to sting, but not be so severe that it discourages people from taking risk. Spirit power provides a resource that always encourages players to take on risk (you have to kill stuff to acquire it, and the harder it is based on several factors, the more it awards) that you also stand to lose. There is a scaling slider associated with the amount you would lose upon death to reinforce just how important it is to avoid it. This would reset daily so that you never find yourself in a hole you can't climb out of. There is an additional scaling slider associated with the cost to bank this resource, and that's basicaly a way to prevent people from banking it leisurely which would diminish the value of having it on your person. The more often you bank it, the more you will have to pay. This would also reset, but weekly (maybe longer?) to ensure that players are able to make consistent use out of the system without going completely broke. There is a great degree of strategy with how you would maximize the efficiency of this system that involves avoiding death and various ways of tactfully using your time.
The main issue is I would just spend all the Spirit resource before we did our 400 death zerg raids, as would everyone else. EQ penalties didn't stop people from taking risk, it stopped people from being reckless and mass death abuse. People will just game any sort of alternate system. I never had these issues with deleveling and dying in general, not sure where VR/people are coming from with this stuff. It really isn't hard to assemble a group of good players that you can trust.
Anyone would be free to spend all the Spirit gained as you suggested, gaiming the system is the nature of the beastie. Still...consider that once max LvL is acheived a charater gains nothing. They're in a sort of limbo unti such time a new expansion arrives, which may be quite some time.
In priciple I do think Spirtual conversion may be a good idea. My disagreement is perhaps, more with implementation. I read the point allocation system for various mobs that would give it. Seems to me stilted in favor of people in the larger raiding guilds, especially since it looks like Pantheon will have competative raiding which by it's nature locks people out, since those mobs would give far more Spirit. I would prefer something more smoothed out so that Spirit could be equally gained. I've been thinking about it and can't think of a viable solution. Does anyone here have any ideas how it could be reasonably done? I would be far easier for it to work if Pantheon would have a community quest and raid system because, then any arguement would be moot. Everyone would be on equal footing.
Anyone would be free to spend all the Spirit gained as you suggested, gaiming the system is the nature of the beastie. Still...consider that once max LvL is acheived a charater gains nothing. They're in a sort of limbo unti such time a new expansion arrives, which may be quite some time.
In priciple I do think Spirtual conversion may be a good idea. My disagreement is perhaps, more with implementation. I read the point allocation system for various mobs that would give it. Seems to me stilted in favor of people in the larger raiding guilds, especially since it looks like Pantheon will have competative raiding which by it's nature locks people out, since those mobs would give far more Spirit. I would prefer something more smoothed out so that Spirit could be equally gained. I've been thinking about it and can't think of a viable solution. Does anyone here have any ideas how it could be reasonably done? I would be far easier for it to work if Pantheon would have a community quest and raid system because, then any arguement would be moot. Everyone would be on equal footing.
Note: the reason for this edit is because I did not properly position it after the /blockquote and my text merged some how with Zircon's. Now my text is easily identified as being from me.
Thank you for chiming in. In regards to how the points are allocated, that's all based on risk vs reward. This could be modified as necessary, but raid content is generally going to be much more difficult than non-raid content. The numbers I used were provided only as a talking point and could easily be adjusted and aligned more closely to match the actual risk vs reward value of any given content in the game. My general rule of thumb for something liks this is: The more likely something is to kill you, the more points it should be worth.
I wish they would just make a hardcore server for the people who don't want this sort of thing, straight heavy xp loss all the way through, no level lock-ins, with very limited res options available, all items on corpse. Not everyone wants alt currencies, participation awards and hand holding.The mantra of the server would be "If you don't like the death penalties here, don't die." I just don't need the devs to design death out of the game, I'd rather them focus on content. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'd rather let the players manage their deaths than the devs.
Zircon said:I wish they would just make a hardcore server for the people who don't want this sort of thing, straight heavy xp loss all the way through, no level lock-ins, with very limited res options available, all items on corpse. Not everyone wants alt currencies, participation awards and hand holding.The mantra of the server would be "If you don't like the death penalties here, don't die." I just don't need the devs to design death out of the game, I'd rather them focus on content. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'd rather let the players manage their deaths than the devs.
I think what you want won't require a special server - it'll probably be like that on the main servers. That seems to be the intent anyway. I'm not sure why you think there will be hand holding. The OP was just entertaining an idea.
There may be an "immersion" server for those that want ultimate restrictions, but only if there is sufficient desire for it. It's important to not divide the community over individual preferences. But I don't see anything you want that won't probably be on the main servers anyway.
See: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5478/hard-core-and-casual-server and https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1922/idea-suggestion-realism-immersion-server
Iksar said:The more I have thought about it the more I realize I am not in favor of the idea because I really don't want an overly punishing death system. I want the game itself to be challenging but I don't want it to be punishing. EQ was more or less fine for me (mostly because I was an early teen at the time and had nothing but free time to kill anyway) but looking at that now it could be a bit harsh. If you didn't have a max XP rez you were looking at hour(s) of lost progress, which today would mean one death is the loss of an entire play session for many many people. The problem being that death is a poor indicator of personal skill as I think more often than not your death is the result of other people. The tank messed up holding aggro, the healer messed up his heals or had an emergency and had to run out of the room, someone trained your group, etc.
I think the game can be entirely challenging even if death doesn't make you tear your hair out and even if you don't get a max exp rez that you don't lose more than an hours worth of progress and you have to make it back to your corpse. Thus the idea that there needs to be more on the line when you hit level 50 is lost on me, especially if you can level up to level 50.99 and then are still able to lose exp. Sure you have the entire time from release to an expansion with a level cap increase to get any losses back, but you have that on any other level all the same with no de-leveling. I'd like for my girlfriend to be able to play the casual grouping part of this game with me and she isn't particularly amazing when it comes to games. I really don't want crazy death punishment putting her off from the game or getting her overly raged at by players for making some mistakes here and there.
So I don't know how to make people always fear/respect death but at the same time not induce anger and/or depression. I mean, you fear/respect death in a challenging game like Dark Souls but you technically lose nothing if you make it back to your corpse without dying again.
"Thus the idea that there needs to be more on the line when you hit level 50 is lost on me, especially if you can level up to level 50.99 and then are still able to lose exp."
The idea here isn't that I feel there needs to be "more on the line" once you hit level 50, but rather that the penalty shouldn't be diminished. Based on what we know, we won't have AA's in the game. What other purpose does this XP buffer serve? A free level on the next expansion? If that's all it can be used for, that diminishes the value of death for me. I could die 5,000 times and as long as I grind a single level back just before the expansion hits, that XP buffer is useless. My interpretation of death is that it should impede progress. XP loss provides that. Think about it ... while you are grinding your levels away, doesen't death sting? When you die, you feel like the next level is just a bit further out of reach because each death has a tangible impact on your progression.
Upon reaching max level, where does that feeling go? What difference other than increased armor repairs is there between a guy who dies 5,000 times and 50 times? If you want the game to feel hardcore, there needs to be a difference. Death should continue to impede progression at 50 the same as it did at 49. If the ability to de-level were present, that would work perfectly fine because it would keep players honest. We know that de-leveling won't be possible, so what does that leave? This entire spirit conversion conversation could be deleted for all I care as soon as someone can shed light on a planned mechanic that makes it so death continues to be meaningful at max level. As it stands, it appears that the cost of death goes down. That goes against various tenets of this game unless "An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable." means that getting level 50 equates to a free ride until the next expansion because that would definitely be meaningful and memorable, but not in a good way ... for me, at least.
I understand that some players would be perfectly okay with that, or even prefer it to be that way. I'm not saying that players who feel that way are wrong, and maybe this is one of those areas where a compromise has to be made and the hardcore players need to settle? If that's the case so be it, but that's a tough pill to swallow. I would like to share a very important article that I highly recommend all players read as it pertains to the death penalty and loss aversion: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
That article is particularly meaningful to me and I was even under the impression that the guy who wrote it was once on the VR team. If you have not yet read that article, I strongly recommend that you do because it's one of the most informative and well written pieces I have ever seen, particularly in how the MMO genre has evolved and why so many of us are attracted to a game like Pantheon. For those who don't have the time to read the entire article, here are some major takeaways:
1) "If a death penalty is trivial then risk itself is trivial. Yet death in 99% of MMOs is a mere inconvenience and speed bump — you don’t lose experience and you don’t lose much of your time. Reward without risk is like getting paid without having to work. Eventually the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it."
2) "Today most MMOs are orgies of advancement attended by over-powered characters where death is a rare event. The occasional death for a player is the only time that the world around the player says “enough!” and pushes back. Without a death penalty mechanic players would not respect for the world around them. A trivial death penalty promotes recklessness and carelessness among players that ultimately erodes the serious nature of the virtual world. The Leeroy Jenkins meme in World of Warcraft is a good example of a reckless player who has no respect for the environment around him."
3) "Death is a noble and wise gatekeeper that ensures that players develop the skills to progress from one level to the next. Those players that do not improve or those that act in a foolhardy manner will die and do not deserve to progress unless they master their class and the other MMO mechanics. This is how it should be."
4) "Even though fantasy virtual worlds have hundreds of ways to advance and progress many designers and players do not appreciate the one single counterpoint to the all you can eat buffet of advancement: death. In most MMOs, death is relegated to a a few seconds or minutes of inconvenience then all is forgiven as the player picks up where she left off."
5) "In a classic MMO like EverQuest your character could go in two different directions. You could gain levels or lose levels. Yes, you could actually lose levels and players know this and it looms large in their minds. As a guide and as a player I have seen players caught in death loops when they had been bound in a certain location such as Freeport and guards continue to kill them when they re-spawn. A level 60 player could lose all of their levels from such a tragic mistake."
6) "EverQuest was truly unique because the more you advanced your character became the more you risked when you went out and adventured. This is because the higher you are in level mobs that produce experience are far more powerful and the result is players have a far greater chance of dying because of it. EverQuest had an rising trajectory of difficulty that created an increasingly more intense and gripping experience for the player. Both loss and gain are symbiotic and complimentary design principles. Both feed off of each other. Both are meaningless without the other."
7) "A robust and serious death penalty is indeed the secret ingredient that makes players respect your virtual world and makes those virtual worlds feel more real and immersive. The death experience is so powerful and avoided at all costs by players, that it promotes a high level of player participation and engagement in all of advancement mechanics that those worlds offer."
8) "The fear of dying in a MMORPG is what makes them feel so strangely alive, visceral and real. That fear is the gasoline that fuels the player’s internal combustion engine of desire to become more powerful. That feeling of fear is a gift. It is something that precious few other video game genres can ever replicate."
9) "Most players hate death penalties. But you know what? A player *should* hate the death penalty. A serious death penalty is appropriate punishment for failure and even when it’s not warranted such as what happens when a mob comes out of nowhere, one shots you and you die. The death penalty is akin to the unexpected pain of being burned when a child touches a hot element on a stove. The stove element doesn’t care if the child willfully or accidentally put his hand on the element; the pain of the burn is the same."
10) "Dying in a MMORPG should be a devastating experience for the player. Without it, the thrill and elation of victory will never taste as sweet. Without serious consequences for death, there is no point of reference that serves as a contrast that makes your virtual existence meaningful."
11) "On a micro level, death penalties in past MMORPGs like EverQuest seemed very harsh and punishing. However, on a macro level a solid death was a much needed mechanic that provides a counter-point that must equal the other side of the risk versus reward equation. Death is the noble guardian that says “You shall not pass!”. Death is like the mythical Atlas holding the heavy world of reward on his shoulders, preventing it from falling down into the ruin of its own excess."
12) "Death in a MMO should be considered a wise teacher with many lessons to impart to his students that taste the bitter sting of his knowledge. Death should be a wake up call that makes you question yourself and ask yourself: what did I do wrong and how could I have averted this? How can I avoid this in the future? How can I be a better player?"
13) "The human experience is all about overcoming hardship and struggle. By overcoming obstacles, we grow and we learn — we become better people. Our struggle for survival has defined us. Loss aversion is an integral part of the human success equation that has served us well over thousands of years of human history. The same should be true of virtual worlds. MMO players need mechanics that provide them with challenges, hardships, dangers and struggles to give their virtual existence purpose and meaning. A robust death penalty mechanic and the loss aversion associated with it is a powerful reagent in the MMO success formula. It needs to be brought back into the MMO design ethos and given its rightful place as a fundamental design principle."
For players like me, end-game is supposed to push the limits of what is considered challenging. If the death penalty mechanic is watered down in any way at max level, I will be one very sad panda. If AA's were present, that would eliminate this issue entirely. If the ability to de-level were present, that would also eliminte this issue entirely. This thread was started so that we could discuss other potential solutions since neither of those mechanics will be implemented when the game launches. Spirit Conversion in many ways is similar to AA's, but rather than having to create a bunch of abilities/spells/modifiers that would require a ton of balancing, the reward spectrum was left completely open-ended. It would almost serve as a stop-gap until a future expansion where AA's could be implemented. I appreciate the input/feedback that various people have chimed in with, regardless of whether or not I agree with you. Thank you.
I agree with that article and the highlights you found, I would just note that binding in the wrong spot, such as under KOS guards was something people did to delevel intentionally. Though it could happen by mistake, you wouldn't have to sit there dying to level 1 you could just close the game log into an alt and get someone to help you or /petition. That's not a real thing. Unfortunately Pantheon seems to be heading down the softcore path.
I'd be more excited about a potential private server at this point.
Obviously no "stop at zero" exp losses. I'd take the progeny system right out, item level restrictions disabled, I'd remove res from any classes beyond a cleric/paladin and probably need to reduce their res % (thinking max level cap at 50%, not 96%). Any sort of res consumable items on them would have the effect removed or just be taken out. That's probably it. May need to globally reduce XP gains and/or globally scale up damage depending.
Zircon said:I wish they would just make a hardcore server for the people who don't want this sort of thing, straight heavy xp loss all the way through, no level lock-ins, with very limited res options available, all items on corpse. Not everyone wants alt currencies, participation awards and hand holding.The mantra of the server would be "If you don't like the death penalties here, don't die." I just don't need the devs to design death out of the game, I'd rather them focus on content. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'd rather let the players manage their deaths than the devs.
If you mean a really hard core server for people who want a truelt lethal experience that's actually very possible. I know EQ had an interesting server geared towards that. It was soo...extreme that if you died at any point your toon went back to lvl 1. My point is that I'm sure the Devs at some point can intriduce a server dedicated specifically to a super hard core playstyle. I gave this example only to make a point. Said server would not need be quite that extreme.
Zircon said:I agree with that article and the highlights you found, I would just note that binding in the wrong spot, such as under KOS guards was something people did to delevel intentionally. Though it could happen by mistake, you wouldn't have to sit there dying to level 1 you could just close the game log into an alt and get someone to help you or /petition. That's not a real thing. Unfortunately Pantheon seems to be heading down the softcore path.
I'd be more excited about a potential private server at this point.
Obviously no "stop at zero" exp losses. I'd take the progeny system right out, item level restrictions disabled, I'd remove res from any classes beyond a cleric/paladin and probably need to reduce their res % (thinking max level cap at 50%, not 96%). Any sort of res consumable items on them would have the effect removed or just be taken out. That's probably it. May need to globally reduce XP gains and/or globally scale up damage depending.
I'm not looking for anything crazy like that. I don't expect an insanely hardcore experience because that would turn a lot of people off and stunt the growth potential of the game. I am fine with having it moderated in many respects and am confident that whatever they have in mind for the 1-49 grind will probably feel just about right. I am only worried about level 50. You are not alone though, I am sure there are others out there who would enjoy playing on a hardcore server similar to what you speak of. I am personally completely sold on the vision as it has been described other than the small detail of the penalty appearing to be diminished at cap. Other than that I'm pretty good to go.
Risingmist said:If you mean a really hard core server for people who want a truelt lethal experience that's actually very possible. I know EQ had an interesting server geared towards that. It was soo...extreme that if you died at any point your toon went back to lvl 1. My point is that I'm sure the Devs at some point can intriduce a server dedicated specifically to a super hard core playstyle. I gave this example only to make a point. Said server would not need be quite that extreme.
No I don't mean that extreme or permadeath. Overhunting blue mobs where you simply cannot take risk would be awful. I thought the high level res was a little bit OP. After you reach a certain point in Pantheon, excluding lower levels, deaths should feel 'brutal' but not 'catastrophic' or 'disastrous'. I just think VR is going the wrong direction. The death penalty in EQ was the lifeblood of the game, it should be sacred. If anything, EQ was too softcore in the endgame. That said though, I think successful raids should do more than they did in EQ to gain back experience, but a raid where you take dozens of death should be a painful setback. I remember awful EQ raids where we spent 12+ hours attempting a raid we weren't ready for because deaths were simply non-factor with 96% res. The problem was we were so far into some dungeon we had to press on even if each boss took 4-5 attempts. The irony is the softcore endgame approach to EQ deaths actually made for hardcore time committments which is exactly what the softcore approach is trying to avoid.
Ultimately the groups I'm in will not be dying, so maybe I'm biased because I don't plan to die a lot.
Zircon said:Risingmist said:If you mean a really hard core server for people who want a truelt lethal experience that's actually very possible. I know EQ had an interesting server geared towards that. It was soo...extreme that if you died at any point your toon went back to lvl 1. My point is that I'm sure the Devs at some point can intriduce a server dedicated specifically to a super hard core playstyle. I gave this example only to make a point. Said server would not need be quite that extreme.
No I don't mean that extreme or permadeath. Overhunting blue mobs where you simply cannot take risk would be awful. I thought the high level res was a little bit OP. After you reach a certain point in Pantheon, excluding lower levels, deaths should feel 'brutal' but not 'catastrophic' or 'disastrous'. I just think VR is going the wrong direction. The death penalty in EQ was the lifeblood of the game, it should be sacred. If anything, EQ was too softcore in the endgame. That said though, I think successful raids should do more than they did in EQ to gain back experience, but a raid where you take dozens of death should be a painful setback. I remember awful EQ raids where we spent 12+ hours attempting a raid we weren't ready for because deaths were simply non-factor with 96% res. The problem was we were so far into some dungeon we had to press on even if each boss took 4-5 attempts. The irony is the softcore endgame approach to EQ deaths actually made for hardcore time committments which is exactly what the softcore approach is trying to avoid.
Ultimately the groups I'm in will not be dying, so maybe I'm biased because I don't plan to die a lot.
I think oneADseven has the threat blues being over farmed covered, just trying to get us back on track, the plan is to reward people for taking risks. Blues, unless I'm mistaken wouldn't really pose much sport, so tougher mobs, if I have this right will gain Spirit. Besides ya gotta give a lillte to get a little imo. You know, as in blood, sweat and tears etc...
Risingmist said:
I think oneADseven has the threat blues being over farmed covered, just trying to get us back on track, the plan is to reward people for taking risks. Blues, unless I'm mistaken wouldn't really pose much sport, so tougher mobs, if I have this right will gain Spirit. Besides ya gotta give a lillte to get a little imo. You know, as in blood, sweat and tears etc...
Unless I missed an update to the original plan, I dont see the proposed solution addressing the blue con mobs being farmed at all. They are worth 1/4th that of red cons. That being the case, anyone that wants the perks from the system will rampage thru blue con content and kill as many blue named as possible and avoid the additional time required and notably higher risk of red cons. It does reward people for not dying by encouraging them to farm that which they are likely not endangered by. Sure, those people who are killing the reds for alternate reasons might see perks too. But likely not any more quickly. And if red is really dangerous, they'll probably die at least a few times in a month and purge their banked spirit.
If this system was really encouraging people to do dangerous things and not die, it would not reward people killing blues and whites, and the rewards would be substantial enough that they were considered either near mandatory, or provably mandatory for end-game players in higher tier content.
I thought oneADseven did make an addendum to his orginal idea. Though from surfing this thread I'm finding it difficult to navigate all these posts which for their size/length rival the Great Wall of China. I may have been mistaken. I applogize if I am. please take the post you're refering to with a grain of salt. I should be far more careful with my replies to threads. Thank you for correcting me on this issue.
I've been to the great Wall this thread isn't *quite* that bad.
>The death penalty in EQ was the lifeblood of the game, it should be sacred. <
A death penalty is important and it should sting. It should not sting so hard as to discourage taking some risks but death should be painful.
I doubt if you mean that Pantheon should have the precise EQ death penalty. Any system that makes death hurt but not hurt *too* badly will be good - if the team can make up a new system better than EQ Gods bless them.
While I have said that I don't consider the death penalty or any other one issue critical - I will judge based on how all the decisions mesh together - death penalty is one of my top issues. I have been complaining in many places for decades about the watering down of the death penalty, and often playing "hardcore" (sometimes called permadeath in more recent years).
dorotea said:I've been to the great Wall this thread isn't *quite* that bad.
>The death penalty in EQ was the lifeblood of the game, it should be sacred. <
A death penalty is important and it should sting. It should not sting so hard as to discourage taking some risks but death should be painful.
I doubt if you mean that Pantheon should have the precise EQ death penalty. Any system that makes death hurt but not hurt *too* badly will be good - if the team can make up a new system better than EQ Gods bless them.
While I have said that I don't consider the death penalty or any other one issue critical - I will judge based on how all the decisions mesh together - death penalty is one of my top issues. I have been complaining in many places for decades about the watering down of the death penalty, and often playing "hardcore" (sometimes called permadeath in more recent years).
I agree death should sting a bit. Though we should be very very careful what we wish for. Pantheon looks to be, from what I read of the Devs intent, to be more lethal than EQ. In EQ our difficulty was generally tough mobs, though with predictable pathing we could easily exploit, and trains that could easily wipe a group. I don't think people quite realize how much more dangerous Pantheon may be compared to EQ. The Devs mentioned mobs will have dispositions i.e. an inclination to attack certain race/classes over others. The AI will be smarter than in EQ. Sometimes Mobs will follow for a long time and sometimes not. Also going back to their dispositions, mobs may very well ignor a tank and go after lets say...the healer....or the enchanter.....perhaps even both. While I'm not sure about that, I would tread carefully. Many of us are thinking in terms of EQ. I think we'll be best served to consider what the Devs have cooked up. My point is this....if Pantheon will have a simular potential for trains as in EQ with generally tough mobs, complemented with an AI that will react better having mobs with dispostions that said AI can play with....well....death may very well occur more often. In that case death that stings over much will make it worst than in EQ. If people complain who were begging for severe penalties complain, I can only hope that the Devs, will have deaf ears to those howls of agony....afterall we did wish for it lol.
In my long winded way I'm trying to say it's kind of like how we in RL practice the Art of War. Wars are generally faught as the War prior. This tends to cause more casualties. In the American Civil War both sides fought as in the Nepolian Era which was unfortunate due to the more advanced weapons used. WW 1 had the simular issue. I think it best we avoid that with Pantheon. Then again I may be wrong in this.
So it's possible that the death penalty itself could be less harsh, but the possibility of death greater due to the combat mechanics and possible tactics used by the AI.
Hey I'm good with that. Great in fact. I'm all for death being meaningful. But if you ramp up the likelyhood of death without scaling the penalty accordingly that could potentially put the game balance out of whack in a hurry.
Feyshtey said:Risingmist said:
I think oneADseven has the threat blues being over farmed covered, just trying to get us back on track, the plan is to reward people for taking risks. Blues, unless I'm mistaken wouldn't really pose much sport, so tougher mobs, if I have this right will gain Spirit. Besides ya gotta give a lillte to get a little imo. You know, as in blood, sweat and tears etc...
Unless I missed an update to the original plan, I dont see the proposed solution addressing the blue con mobs being farmed at all. They are worth 1/4th that of red cons. That being the case, anyone that wants the perks from the system will rampage thru blue con content and kill as many blue named as possible and avoid the additional time required and notably higher risk of red cons. It does reward people for not dying by encouraging them to farm that which they are likely not endangered by. Sure, those people who are killing the reds for alternate reasons might see perks too. But likely not any more quickly. And if red is really dangerous, they'll probably die at least a few times in a month and purge their banked spirit.
If this system was really encouraging people to do dangerous things and not die, it would not reward people killing blues and whites, and the rewards would be substantial enough that they were considered either near mandatory, or provably mandatory for end-game players in higher tier content.
The original plan was that the numbers don't really mean anything. Everything is subject to change. It's just a concept and if it makes sense to adjust the blue/red ratio that's something that would need to be handled down the road. Looking at the numbers currently I would imagine farming yellow content as ideal. If someone has a really strong group, maybe orange content would make the most sense. Why would I hunt blue names when every 6 yellow trash mobs drop the equivilent amount of spirit power? Based on the numbers, I would imagine a group wanting to find the perfect balance of risk vs reward. Push the hardest content you possibly can while also trying to avoid death. If someone decides farming blues is the best use of their time, how is there anything wrong with that? What if they are a group member or two short from being able to handle yellow content? What if their gear is less than ideal? As long as the numbers scale in a way that the reward is proportionate to the risk, the system would work fine.
Again ... I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the numbers. That's why I referred to them as a rough outline. Nothing is set in stone. It felt like a decent starting point for the sake of discussion but I wouldn't label anything as a problem that needs a solution at this point. Numbers can always be tweaked when it comes to this kind of thing. The riskier the encounter, the more it should reward. Those who are able to consistently farm risky areas should achieve a higher spirit power per hour ratio. If someone wants to farm blues, that's fine ... it shouldn't be as effective as farming the more difficult colors, but it should be an option on the table. All time is valuable and those who coordinate their time to most effectively farm the harder content should be rewarded accordingly. The numbers that make the most sense to achieve that would be something that would probably have to be tested for an extended period of time.
The numbers are part of what can make it work or fail. Not considering the numbers and the way it scales would be like arguing to send men to Mars without really worrying about what it'll cost or how long it will take to get there.
Feyshtey said:The numbers are part of what can make it work or fail. Not considering the numbers and the way it scales would be like arguing to send men to Mars without really worrying about what it'll cost or how long it will take to get there.
Labeling the numbers a problem at this point is like arguing over the cost of a mission that will most likely never happen. I said that the numbers were a rough outline and that they could be adjusted as necessary -- I'm not sure what more you are asking for? The basis of this thread is not to put an emphasis on the numbers, but rather the demand for the system. When I look at the existing numbers, they look like a pretty decent starting point. They could very easily be adjusted down the line but it's impossible to determine any of that right now based on the lack of information we have regarding blue/red content in the game.
Debating blue/red ratios is like arguing over how we're going to deal with all the "blues" on the "red planet" that we "might" go on a mission to "if" we determine there is a reason to. It's premature. I understand you get a kick out of poking holes through every detail possible. If we're at the point now where the blue/red ratio is a major concern to you, that implies that you agree that the trip to Mars is something we need to accomplish and that it's time to figure out the specifics such as budgeting. Sounds good! Let me forward this over to finance and accounting.
It's been awhile since I have posted on this thread but I started thinking about it again recently after spending some time researching various studies centered around MMO player profiles and reading up on a few different articles by Wolfshead. There are plenty of great articles out there but the one that really stood out to me was focused on loss aversion and you'll see a link to it near the end of this post. I also highlighted a few excerpts that spoke volumes to me earlier on this page. Loss aversion is an incredibly powerful motivator when it comes to MMO death mechanics. It's something we'll all experience while leveling up, but once you get to max, where does that feeling go? Should that feeling be replaced with something else? I want to quote one of the comments that was shared on this thread:
"I just don't see why death needs to be something to fear at max level. You've put in the countless hours of work to get there and that's just sort of one of the rewards, that you finally get to really push your limits and take more risks to better your character. It's still inconvienent which is fine."
My experience with the death penalty in EQ2 was very similar to what was described above. As soon as you got to max-level the feeling of loss aversion was replaced with inconvenience. When I reflect on that experience and compare it to FFXI, a game where you could de-level, the impact and value of loss aversion being tied into the death penalty becomes abundantly clear to me. Do you think a diminished death penalty should be a reward for getting to max level? If so, do you think that would incentivize players to focus on getting to "end-game" in order to enjoy an altered death mechanic that is forevermore in their favor? I do, and the idea of that doesn't really resonate with me at all. If getting to max level alleviates the sense of danger in a dangerous world, I believe that some players will tunnel vision on getting to that point as quickly as possible who otherwise may not have. Is that a good thing, bad thing, or neither?
The purpose behind this spirit conversion idea was to bring back the all important sensation of loss aversion to max level players. This is with the assumption that de-leveling won't be a thing in Pantheon, and that the death mechanic most likely won't be finalized until sometime in beta. As far as implementation is concerned, it would be extremely light on resources due to the fact that it's really nothing more than a numbers game. I didn't want to speculate on the rewards too much because I didn't want this thread to turn into a debate on hardcore vs casual, forced vs optional, or raiders vs non-raiders. That said, I think it would be pretty important for the rewards to be desirable and at the very least include some sort of temporary buff so that they could never be fully exhausted. If players don't care about the rewards then they wouldn't really care about their spirit power and that would defeat the purpose of the idea. There was another thread started recently that asked players what they expect to get done in a 2 hour window and I feel that this kind of feature would open up some possibilities for max level players.
It could serve as a form of accessible and tangible progress that also motivates players to avoid death. This is something that would absolutely resonate with me, and for a variety of reasons. It would encourage me to come up with a strategy that would make the most out of my session. If I only had 2 hours, I probably wouldn't try to navigate through a large dungeon. What I might do, though, is try to form up a group and go tackle whatever available content I could within that limited timeframe while still respecting the environment. That everpresent sense of risk vs reward would allow me to feel like I could actually accomplish something meaningful. Avoiding death is a form of art that I want to see make a huge comeback in Pantheon. I would love to be able to chip away at something and log off after I'm done, content with the idea that I played my cards right and managed to make some progress without dying. If I did die, it's not the end of the world and I'll have an experience to draw from in the future.
As I think about it more, I wonder if this idea could somehow be tied into earning favor with our deities? I'm not sure what kind of rewards would be tied into the deity system but the name of the game is Pantheon so I have a feeling that they would be pretty desirable. Would it make sense for our characters to be able to harvest this "spirit power" from the corpses of our foes and offer it to our deity to earn favor? Might it also make sense that we stand to lose a bit of "spirit power" each and every time we die as it would be something our deity would most likely frown upon? I think it could be spun into something that makes sense lore wise but more importantly, I think it could serve as a resource that fulfills two very important aspects of the death penalty -- it would entice players to go out in the world to try and acquire it but be valuable enough to discourage them from dying and losing it. May we never forget Leeroy Jenkins and his great sacrifice toward our cause.
As a disclaimer, I want it to be clear that I am only looking to re-open a dialogue about the death penalty at max level. I don't want this post to come off as an attempt to beg for feature creep. Instead, I wanted to paint a picture of a death penalty mechanic that adheres to what we currently know about the game and gauge the thoughts and feedback of others. This thread was inspired in large part by the following article: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/ ; -- it's definitely worth a read if you haven't already checked it out. There is no right or wrong answer for any of the questions I have asked. It's just a matter of perspective and I'm curious how other players might feel.
oneADseven said:It's been awhile since I have posted on this thread but I started thinking about it again recently after spending some time researching various studies centered around MMO player profiles and reading up on a few different articles by Wolfshead. There are plenty of great articles out there but the one that really stood out to me was focused on loss aversion and you'll see a link to it near the end of this post. I also highlighted a few excerpts that spoke volumes to me earlier on this page. Loss aversion is an incredibly powerful motivator when it comes to MMO death mechanics. It's something we'll all experience while leveling up, but once you get to max, where does that feeling go? Should that feeling be replaced with something else? I want to quote one of the comments that was shared on this thread:
"I just don't see why death needs to be something to fear at max level. You've put in the countless hours of work to get there and that's just sort of one of the rewards, that you finally get to really push your limits and take more risks to better your character. It's still inconvienent which is fine."My experience with the death penalty in EQ2 was very similar to what was described above. As soon as you got to max-level the feeling of loss aversion was replaced with inconvenience. When I reflect on that experience and compare it to FFXI, a game where you could de-level, the impact and value of loss aversion being tied into the death penalty becomes abundantly clear to me. Do you think a diminished death penalty should be a reward for getting to max level? If so, do you think that would incentivize players to focus on getting to "end-game" in order to enjoy an altered death mechanic that is forevermore in their favor? I do, and the idea of that doesn't really resonate with me at all. If getting to max level alleviates the sense of danger in a dangerous world, I believe that some players will tunnel vision on getting to that point as quickly as possible who otherwise may not have. Is that a good thing, bad thing, or neither?
The purpose behind this spirit conversion idea was to bring back the all important sensation of loss aversion to max level players. This is with the assumption that de-leveling won't be a thing in Pantheon, and that the death mechanic most likely won't be finalized until sometime in beta. As far as implementation is concerned, it would be extremely light on resources due to the fact that it's really nothing more than a numbers game. I didn't want to speculate on the rewards too much because I didn't want this thread to turn into a debate on hardcore vs casual, forced vs optional, or raiders vs non-raiders. That said, I think it would be pretty important for the rewards to be desirable and at the very least include some sort of temporary buff so that they could never be fully exhausted. If players don't care about the rewards then they wouldn't really care about their spirit power and that would defeat the purpose of the idea. There was another thread started recently that asked players what they expect to get done in a 2 hour window and I feel that this kind of feature would open up some possibilities for max level players.
It could serve as a form of accessible and tangible progress that also motivates players to avoid death. This is something that would absolutely resonate with me, and for a variety of reasons. It would encourage me to come up with a strategy that would make the most out of my session. If I only had 2 hours, I probably wouldn't try to navigate through a large dungeon. What I might do, though, is try to form up a group and go tackle whatever available content I could within that limited timeframe while still respecting the environment. That everpresent sense of risk vs reward would allow me to feel like I could actually accomplish something meaningful. Avoiding death is a form of art that I want to see make a huge comeback in Pantheon. I would love to be able to chip away at something and log off after I'm done, content with the idea that I played my cards right and managed to make some progress without dying. If I did die, it's not the end of the world and I'll have an experience to draw from in the future.
As I think about it more, I wonder if this idea could somehow be tied into earning favor with our deities? I'm not sure what kind of rewards would be tied into the deity system but the name of the game is Pantheon so I have a feeling that they would be pretty desirable. Would it make sense for our characters to be able to harvest this "spirit power" from the corpses of our foes and offer it to our deity to earn favor? Might it also make sense that we stand to lose a bit of "spirit power" each and every time we die as it would be something our deity would most likely frown upon? I think it could be spun into something that makes sense lore wise but more importantly, I think it could serve as a resource that fulfills two very important aspects of the death penalty -- it would entice players to go out in the world to try and acquire it but be valuable enough to discourage them from dying and losing it. May we never forget Leeroy Jenkins and his great sacrifice toward our cause.
As a disclaimer, I want it to be clear that I am only looking to re-open a dialogue about the death penalty at max level. I don't want this post to come off as an attempt to beg for feature creep. Instead, I wanted to paint a picture of a death penalty mechanic that adheres to what we currently know about the game and gauge the thoughts and feedback of others. This thread was inspired in large part by the following article: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/ ; -- it's definitely worth a read if you haven't already checked it out. There is no right or wrong answer for any of the questions I have asked. It's just a matter of perspective and I'm curious how other players might feel.
I'm going to compare to EQ since that is the death penalty I can most identify with and is the magic sauce mentioned in the Wolfs Head article you mentioned. It is indeed a good read and really pulls the EQ death penalty and how it sets up the risk/rewards system into focus.
I would agree that once you reach max level that sense of danger falls off, its merely a shrug and move on type of experience. No real need to get help or a rez in most cases. And it’s in some ways a bonus, as I first looked at it back in the day and also a detriment as I more clearly understood after some time.
The lack of any real death penalty at max level wasn't really my motivation to succeed and be among the ranks of the high levels. It was more the journey I undertook, the people that I met and the experiences I had along the way that made me want to be more. I wanted to be able to contribute in a meaningful way to large scale encounters like my peers that had already achieved those things. Finally reaching my goals and becoming mentor to those after me was also quite rewarding in its self. It was only as a side effect of reaching max level that it dawned upon me. At some point I realized I was becoming bored and the thing that kept me logging in was the friendships I had forged during the journey.
It was at this time that I only truly felt that rush when we would take on very risky encounters with low numbers of players, where we risked having long corpse runs. Looking back on it I think the intent of corpse rotting in EQ was to maintain that sense of fear even at max level. It almost scales with you as you attain items. That fear of losing all those long hours of work if you don't get that corpse back. To hell with the XP loss, just give me my stuff back. The rez is just a means to an end, getting your stuff back. It only means more to someone who is still leveling up.
That said, your spirit conversion idea is in my mind essentially what EQ did for players at max level after some expansions came out. AA or Alternative Advancement points once again gave us a reason to XP grind. If you don't know what it is, it was essentially a second XP bar that was like filling a level 50 xp bar, so pretty fast but not super-fast when you’re at 60-65 killing level appropriate stuff. Every time you ding you get an AA point and you can collect them to spend on skills that fell into different categories. Such as base stat increases, class specific passive and active abilities etc. It would usually get expanded with each expansion.
One of the cool parts of it was that at level 51, when you could start collecting AA experience, you could choose to split your XP between your main bar and your AA bar with a slider. Many would leave it on full XP while others would sometimes give 10% or so to their AA and once at max level with sufficient padding you would slide it over to 100%.
The up side to this is it brought out the veterans to group with the people still leveling and gave us all a reason to be active in the world again instead of just logging in for raids. We could get new abilities and it was almost like being excited to ding again.
The down side was it created new base requirements, set by player guilds, that said you had to have so many AA points to go on X raid. Which was likely true from a survival/success point of view, but I never cared for leaving people out that were of appropriate level just because they hadn't attained 300 AA points yet. It created a new separation in the community, that ultimately, I think hurt EQ.
So back on topic, EQ didn't make you lose any XP in your AA bar, but you did lose XP in your main XP bar upon death. Upon reflection I think it would have been a good idea to have that slider bar work in reverse too. If you’re at 100% to AA experience, then you take 100% of the death penalty in your AA bar. You should be able to lose abilities gained from AA by losing AA to death. But that is not how it was implemented.
So, again you would go grind out your AA, max out on what you needed to raid, get all those cool new abilities and then start only logging in for raids again.
So, all that said, how do you make the game just as exciting at max level?
I think it still goes back to loss aversion. It may be that corpse rotting needs to be in to help maintain appropriate levels of loss aversion in people’s minds. It may be that when/if an AA system is implemented that we should lose XP in the AA/Spirit bar.
And that is the really hard thing to do, how do you keep players playing, such as the AA system initially did, keep death somewhat meaningful, such as corpse rotting did and not create fissures in your community by creating the super elites, such as AA did, who will inevitably turn away new players who have not attained enough to be with them on their adventures.
I don't think there is an easy answer to this, perhaps that answer is to make the horizontal progression wider than the vertical, so much so in fact that obtaining max level is so far out of reach that people learn to stop rushing towards it.
I really don't know.
Not sure if I answered any questions there but it is what comes to mind when contemplating this topic.
-Az