Spirit Conversion is a concept that could be added to the game for max-level players. Upon reaching max level, players will no longer be able to lose experience which would nullify an important aspect of the death penalty. I believe that death should be meaningful at all levels and the idea behind this is to add an additional type of bankable currency (spirit power) to the game that max-level players can lose a portion of in the event of their death. Spirit power is accumulated by killing NPC's in the game, and the amount awarded would scale based on the NPC's level and whether or not it is a Named or Raid Boss. I am going to quote the FAQ as a reference point for how VR envisions their death penalty, and will then provide more information on how the system would work.
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
The amount of spirit power awarded per NPC would scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con. A description of this color con system can be found at the end of this post.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
Now that we know how spirit level values could scale, let's consider how this concept could affect the death penalty in greater detail:
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death."
The spirit conversion concept is literally predicated on the very first sentence. With this system, players would be forced to respect their environment, but they are also enticed by it because every NPC they kill can offer additional spirit power. When a player dies, they lose some of that spirit power. Spirit power can be used to buy something desirable. I don't want to lose my spirit power! Sounds like an incentive to avoid death to me!
"That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
This is a great point, and in regards to just how much spirit power would be lost upon death, let's assume a value that could depend on several variables. Perhaps each death would scale the amount lost. Let's say it starts at 100 for the first death, 200 for the second death, 300 for the third death, and eventually caps at around 500, but resets daily? This is where the banking aspect comes into play, and it should be flexible enough so that players can develop a strategy with how often they use it. What if a player has the option to bank their accumulated spirit power as often as they like, but after each successive banking they are required to pay a gold/plat fee that scales higher and higher the more often you do it, but resets weekly? After the week is over that cost would reset to the point where your first spirit power bank is free and then it continues to scale up again. This could be an awesome plat sink. It allows players to mitigate the risk of their deaths for a cost while still maintaining a constant sense of danger/risk while they have any unbanked spirit power on their person.
I feel something like this would strike a very reasonable balance where all player types can benefit from the system and it's flexible enough to allow them to mitigate their risk. At any given moment, players would need to be cognizant of their surroundings and do their best to avoid death. They are still incentivized to adventure in the world as much as possible to maximize how much spirit power they can accumulate, and with the daily/weekly reset timers, there is enough of a cushion present that they won't find themself in a hole that they can't climb out of. By adding a currency cost to the banking process, this also introduces an important plat sink into the game that can help stem off inflation. By making the rewards for this system desirable, the art of avoiding death should be at the forefront of every player's mind while they navigate the dangerous world of Terminus. This kind of end-game risk vs reward death penalty would be very appealing to me.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
*Edited to reflect the evolution of this concept.
** If you would like to see the original version, please check page 2 where multiple people quoted it.
It would also encourage people to kill named and contested raid mobs that would otherwise provide them no benefit, and do so at the expense of others who want the items/quests associated with them.
I can just see all the top tier raid guilds scrambling all over Terminus killing everything thing with a name they can find as often as they possibly could.
I am pretty sure, at this point, VR has already decided what systems will be in place. I doubt they are going to take up additional, convoluted systems to add in that would just delay their plans.
Let them get THEIR game out. Then we can start begging for feature creep.
Xxar said:Exp debt ? Has there been a update in regards to debt/exp loss that I am unaware of ?
Nope. I think the OP is just referring to xp lost upon death, which is expected to be a part of the death penalty. We don't really know to what degree this will affect max level players though.
Beefcake said:I am pretty sure, at this point, VR has already decided what systems will be in place. I doubt they are going to take up additional, convoluted systems to add in that would just delay their plans.
Let them get THEIR game out. Then we can start begging for feature creep.
I don't know what makes you so sure. As something that is death penalty-related, this is definitely something that would be experimented with during alpha and beta. But I don't think the OP is "begging" for feature creep, just entertaining an idea. Which is what these forums are for. Even though it sometimes feels pointless. But it's important to not be a buzzkill.
That said, this idea does seem to add complications where they're probably not really needed. Although I suppose you'd have to clarify by what you mean by "something beneficial." What types of rewards would be available? But personally, I'd like to keep the types of currencies to a minimum. Ideally, exploration and the death penalty won't need reinforcing. It is possible for both to be very meaningful without this system. As I've said before, my rule of thumb is don't add something to a game because it sounds cool, add something only if the game can't live without it. Simplicity is often best. So in my opinion, we'd have to wait to see if this sort of reinforcement is actually necessary before adding it.
Have some forgotten that this forum was created to express and post ideas in order to help the devs and that the developers invited us to post ideas? Just because an idea seems complex for release doesn't mean the idea should never be posted, nor does it mean that the devs might not shelf the idea to revist at a later date.
To oneADseven and all the others posting ideas:
Keep them coming, don't let the negativity stop you.
For a long time, the negativity towards any idea or ideas and tendency of the tattletales to run to mummy and daddy and tattletale here on the forums that members are trying to police the forums was pretty disturbing and is the main reason why I am not here much, nor posting much in the way of ideas anymore, but some kind words from Kilsin motivated me to continue being positive and continue to share ideas here as opposed to just not bothering.
Let the ideas flow...
I actually like this system, it is pretty cool and allows for than room to grow in endgame by protecting a precious resource other than exp which most at max level won't even care about. I remeber before the AA system in EQ dying didn't mean anything, i was already max level and max exp into the level, so if i died it was just a shrug the shoulders and move on kind of thing. So a system like this would be pretty cool. It would encourage people to continue grouping after max level without a reason other than another form of exp kinda.
The only thing I would think needs to be adjusted is the death penalty for it. 25-50% and that's unrecoverable? So what if I raid and nobody has learned an encounter yet? You know how many wipes comes with that? So basically anyone that raids would kinda get screwed over with that kind of system.
What I say is that if you die, you have like an hour or 2 window, to recover a part of what you lost, and the only way to recover it is by killing the enemy that killed you. But it's not a full recovery, it would only be partial, so say you lost 25% of your points to dieing, go back kill the mob that killed you, you can then recover 50% of what you lost. This will encourage players to not give up after a wipe, but come back with a vengeance. Then you also only lose about 12.5% instead of 25%. And this effect accumulates over that period of time too, it's not just one death. So say we go fight a new raid encounter, wipe 3 times in an hour, come back and on the 4th try down the mob, you now regain 50% of those 3 wipes you had, so it's not a total loss.
Oh and the rewards should be items only obtainable through this system. Such as armor that doesn't drop anywhere else in the world, or appearance items too, since that seems to be the go to for most end gamers as well. It shouln't be overpowered items but the cost could be high so it would make people work harder to get the items.
Spiritual conversion? Whats is the plus side of spiritual conversion? If you lose some in death what does it mean? Does it have some "value" to the character . If you lose experience in death then you need to make it up to move forward in levels. If you lose spiritual conversion what kind of setback does it effect. Do you need this conversion to level or make your diety more powerfull?? Please explain.
Feyshtey said:It would also encourage people to kill named and contested raid mobs that would otherwise provide them no benefit, and do so at the expense of others who want the items/quests associated with them.
I can just see all the top tier raid guilds scrambling all over Terminus killing everything thing with a name they can find as often as they possibly could.
I can't imagine there being contested raid content that would provide no benefit. The idea of that even being possible is really disturbing to me. Contested raid content should have some of the best loot in the game and regardless of whether my idea is adopted or not, guilds will always pursue these encounters to the extreme.
In an effort to balance this concept across the board, I also included regular non-named group encounters into the equation. I imagine some players opting to safely farm regular mobs and killing the occasional name rather than focusing exclusively on named. With such a high death penalty in tact, players must truly consider their every move and risk/reward becomes much more prevalent.
Isaya said:Spiritual conversion? Whats is the plus side of spiritual conversion? If you lose some in death what does it mean? Does it have some "value" to the character . If you lose experience in death then you need to make it up to move forward in levels. If you lose spiritual conversion what kind of setback does it effect. Do you need this conversion to level or make your diety more powerfull?? Please explain.
I wanted to leave this part of the idea open-ended. Basically, the idea is to allow people to harness this "spirit power" by slaying different beasts in the world. The more challenging the foe, the more spirit power it rewards. Once per month, players would be allowed to convert this spirit power into some sort of currency. I didn't want to speculate too much on what this currency could be used on because it seems rather moot at this point, but I do think there is potential for it to be tied into our deities. At the same time, we already know that we will be able to sacrifice gear to earn favor with our deity and that will be an important part of removing items from the game. Tying this into deity/favor could take away from that so while I think it's an interesting idea, perhaps this spirit power could be used for something else.
The focal point behind this idea was to add another layer of risk/reward to our gameplay, particularly at max level. It's already been stated that we won't be able to de-level, so once we get to max, the "risk" of XP debt goes away. While I am sure we'll still have some sort of debuff, I personally believe that the game would feel much more rewarding if every death had a nasty sting. I understand that this will be extra taxing for raiders as there is generally a huge learning curve on those kind of encounters and many deaths are to be expected.
I really like Dubah's idea on how some of the spirit power lost from death can be reattained after killing the mob that killed you. I'm not sure how hard something like that would be to code into the game, but I definitely see people coming back with a vengeance! That sounds exciting to me. As far as the rewards go, I would also like to see them be something that is exclusive to this system. They don't need to be super over-powered or anything, but they should definitely be desirable.
Of the two options I originally proposed, I would prefer that players be able to convert their power into a pool. It would have to be limited as far as how often we could do this conversion in order to prevent people from mass-farming and then pooling their spirit power before doing anything that would be considered dangerous. I think once or twice per month seems pretty fair. It would allow players to have a degree of flexibility when it comes to participating in some of the super risky endeavors without having to lose all they worked for. Allowing players to bank their spirit power into a pool would also provide a gratifying sense of progression.
Ok now I get the idea. I was not sure that spiritual power was something tangible or just an idea. But that is a good idea to be able to use it for something every few levels or once in a certain amount of time. Maybe a currency to buy favor with your diety or more important with another diety you were trying to build favor with .
Good idea oneADseven
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:It would also encourage people to kill named and contested raid mobs that would otherwise provide them no benefit, and do so at the expense of others who want the items/quests associated with them.
I can just see all the top tier raid guilds scrambling all over Terminus killing everything thing with a name they can find as often as they possibly could.
I can't imagine there being contested raid content that would provide no benefit. The idea of that even being possible is really disturbing to me. Contested raid content should have some of the best loot in the game and regardless of whether my idea is adopted or not, guilds will always pursue these encounters to the extreme.
In an effort to balance this concept across the board, I also included regular non-named group encounters into the equation. I imagine some players opting to safely farm regular mobs and killing the occasional name rather than focusing exclusively on named. With such a high death penalty in tact, players must truly consider their every move and risk/reward becomes much more prevalent.
Guild X has already completed 80% of the raid content to the point that they have farmed all the quest drops and gear drops their members desire. Guild X cannot gain benefit from that raid any longer, save perhaps selling access to it's drops to non-guild players. But with a system that rewards them a currency that is then in turn converted to "something benefiical", and that benefit is a recurring monthly transaction, now they have an incentive to kill said boss every time they possibly can, whereas before they had exhausted all benefits.
Instead of forgoing that encounter when its availble and allowing others who have not yet exhausted its loot/quest potential, they now have a reason to muster the forces and go whack that mob. And every other named that might by chance be standing in every dungeon.
This is true in the guidelines you set forth even if the random named mob is green (near-trivial) to the guild members and any loot it might have meaningless to them in every regard other than for cash profit. And while the reward in spirit power you have laid out might be trivial for those more-advanced characters, their ability to mow many of those down night after night, month after month accrues over time to continue providing them their supply of desired spirit power.
Unless you mean to say that killing those named is valuable to acquire spirit power for them only the first time they kill it? After that no spirit power is earned? If that's the case you didnt state it.
Edit:
I guess another potential caveat is if the number of "something beneficial"s is a finite list, and permanant. At some point the player will have bought all the benefits and will have no need to accrue spirit power any longer. But even one of the "something beneficial"s is a non-permanant thing, wouldn't they still be incentivized to keep buying that one thing every month?
Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:It would also encourage people to kill named and contested raid mobs that would otherwise provide them no benefit, and do so at the expense of others who want the items/quests associated with them.
I can just see all the top tier raid guilds scrambling all over Terminus killing everything thing with a name they can find as often as they possibly could.
I can't imagine there being contested raid content that would provide no benefit. The idea of that even being possible is really disturbing to me. Contested raid content should have some of the best loot in the game and regardless of whether my idea is adopted or not, guilds will always pursue these encounters to the extreme.
In an effort to balance this concept across the board, I also included regular non-named group encounters into the equation. I imagine some players opting to safely farm regular mobs and killing the occasional name rather than focusing exclusively on named. With such a high death penalty in tact, players must truly consider their every move and risk/reward becomes much more prevalent.
Guild X has already completed 80% of the raid content to the point that they have farmed all the quest drops and gear drops their members desire. Guild X cannot gain benefit from that raid any longer, save perhaps selling access to it's drops to non-guild players. But with a system that rewards them a currency that is then in turn converted to "something benefiical", and that benefit is a recurring monthly transaction, now they have an incentive to kill said boss every time they possibly can, whereas before they had exhausted all benefits.
Instead of forgoing that encounter when its availble and allowing others who have not yet exhausted its loot/quest potential, they now have a reason to muster the forces and go whack that mob. And every other named that might by chance be standing in every dungeon.
This is true in the guidelines you set forth even if the random named mob is green (near-trivial) to the guild members and any loot it might have meaningless to them in every regard other than for cash profit. And while the reward in spirit power you have laid out might be trivial for those more-advanced characters, their ability to mow many of those down night after night, month after month accrues over time to continue providing them their supply of desired spirit power.
Unless you mean to say that killing those named is valuable to acquire spirit power for them only the first time they kill it? After that no spirit power is earned? If that's the case you didnt state it.
I understand that it incentivizes people to get out in the world and adventure to slay things, and I am okay with that! If you look at the rough outline I proposed, they are also incentivized to just kill random group encounters. The numbers could obviously be tweaked, but if someone was truly obsessed with maximizing the opportunity of spirit power, they could just as easily farm regular encounters to stockpile it without the added risk of dying to more difficult named bosses. I expect the majority of the game to be pretty challenging, but I hope that named bosses in particular pose enough of a threat where they can wipe an uncoordinated group. With that said, there is a major cost to every potential opportunity. If a player is confident in his or her skill/ability to crawl a dungeon and kill all of the named, good for them!
Personally, I am in favor of a system that adds a base value to every named NPC. Let's say it only drops 2 items and both are trivial to me. In this case, yes, I would like an incentive to continue killing it. Your view is primarily concerned with players tackling content that could otherwise be more meaningful to other players ... my point is that I would like to see all content valuable to all players. The dev team already said they would have ghosts for any important quest mob to prevent guilds from monopolozing them. When it comes to non-quest related named NPC's or raid bosses, these are considered contested and it's first come first serve.
The other aspect to consider is this ... by adding this base value to all names, maybe this will actually help the guy who is farming a specific one for loot? If players are mostly concerned with acquiring spirit power, the only deciding factor between one encounter and the next is the risk associated with it. I am not saying this idea is perfect, but in my opinion, the pros far outweigh the cons. The major focal point here is that I would like to see death continue to be meaningful throughout the entire game, particularly at max level. I would like my character to live in a world where every decision is important ... where survival is considered an art that players can truly appreciate, and should be an area where players consistently strive to improve their game.
That would feel much more immersive to me ... the risk vs reward would feel more flavorful, and the sense of victory/survival would feel more fun. I also enjoy first person shooter games and place a special value on my kill/death ratio. This is kind of like that ... but for an MMO. Maybe there could be some sort of visible status or recognition for those highest on the monthly ladders? Maybe spirit power could be tied into the deity/favor system rather than having it's own beneficial currency? Risk vs reward is a core aspect of all MMO's and I am banking on Pantheon evolving the genre in this regard. A more severe death penalty is something that many of us miss because of the inherent challenge that it imposes on us ... what exactly does a max player have to lose besides time/repair funds right now? If you give them something that they stand to lose upon death, they will cherish their character lives a lot more.
The problem with the system is that it inherently incentivizes those who have achieved near-max power to stampede over content that is for all intents and purposes trivial to them. If they are in the guild I described they have the vast majority of the power they can attain, and done so thru higher than average coordination and teamwork. And because of this almost all regular named and many of the raid content is going to be old hat. They will be the first to organize for an attack, and they will succeed 95% of the time with ease.
Where they would have no reason to kill those raid mobs before, now they do. They are not encouraged to go out into the gameworld and adventure. They have surpassed that particular stage of adventure already, and this is nothing more than a simple excercise to fuel aids ("special benefits") that help them kill the things that actually still matter to them with greater ease.
And even when you're talking white-con raid mobs, in every game I've ever played there are tiers of difficulty to provide a raid progression that are somewhat disconnected from mob levels (cons). When you're level 50, there are raid targets that are level 50 that are achievable with relatively low geared raids. And there are raid targets that are level 50 that required a slightly higher teir of gear. And another tier that requires another tier again. And maybe a 4th or 5th tier. A guild that has conquered and farmed the 4th and 5th tiers will dominant the 1st tier. And your system gives them a reason to dominate it at the expense of people that just want to learn it and try it.
The intended reason of giving death meaning is actually defeated by the system itself. They gain benefit by doing things (edit: again and again and again) that provide little risk.
Feyshtey said:The problem with the system is that it inherently incentivizes those who have achieved near-max power to stampede over content that is for all intents and purposes trivial to them. If they are in the guild I described they have the vast majority of the power they can attain, and done so thru higher than average coordination and teamwork. And because of this almost all regular named and many of the raid content is going to be old hat. They will be the first to organize for an attack, and they will succeed 95% of the time with ease.
Where they would have no reason to kill those raid mobs before, now they do. They are not encouraged to go out into the gameworld and adventure. They have surpassed that particular stage of adventure already, and this is nothing more than a simple excercise to fuel aids ("special benefits") that help them kill the things that actually still matter to them with greater ease.
And even when you're talking white-con raid mobs, in every game I've ever played there are tiers of difficulty to provide a raid progression that are somewhat disconnected from mob levels (cons). When you're level 50, there are raid targets that are level 50 that are achievable with relatively low geared raids. And there are raid targets that are level 50 that required a slightly higher teir of gear. And another tier that requires another tier again. And maybe a 4th or 5th tier. A guild that has conquered and farmed the 4th and 5th tiers will dominant the 1st tier. And your system gives them a reason to dominate it at the expense of people that just want to learn it and try it.
The intended reason of giving death meaning is actually defeated by the system itself. They gain benefit by doing things that provide little risk.
Again, VR will have measures in place that prevent guilds from monopolizing certain raid content and preventing less experienced guilds from learning it. The example you are using is citing a very small percentage of players ... are you suggesting that the idea wouldn't be worthwhile because of the less than .1% of players in your example?
Also, I do not feel that this system incentivizes people to stampede over easy content. The outline I provided shows considerably higher spirit power for higher level NPC's. I do agree that there is "some" benefit for doing the lower level stuff, and that's fine. If someone chooses to spend their time farming easy content, they will be rewarded accordingly based on the risk vs reward scale.
You are getting hung up on small details and labeling them as a problem. This isn't a "system" it's a concept. I am not saying that any single piece of this idea is etched in stone ... it's nothing more than a vision that could be modified/tweaked along the way to deliver something special. If someone really wanted to they could find an evil problem with almost any game concept. You mentioned you have shared several ideas on this forum so I am sure you know exactly what I am talking about.
VR will have means to preven some contested encounters to be monopolized. But we dont know what that means or how it might work, let alone how much of the contested content it might apply to.
The very small percentage of the player base I'm refering to is all the percentage of the playerbase that need exist to have massive impact. I dont remember your personal history in MMOs if you've described it here, but the uberguilds in EQ used to do exactly what I'm talking about because they found it funny that they could block others from engaging the content. They also liked selling loot rights to the gear. These uberguilds would have plants all over the gameworld watching for raid spawns, and would decend like rabid vultures in a matter of minutes to destroy the target before most of the rest of the server even knew it was up. Now you're laying on another perfectly legitimate and intentional reason for them to continue the trend. You've taken it from what can reasonably be argued as the uberguild just being asshats, to that guild reasonably justifying the activity to get spirit power they "need" to get the "special benefits".
It only takes 1% of a very small logged-in server population to host a formidable raid force. With the scale of the world VR is shooting for and the focus on cooperation, a very small population is unlikely.
Feyshtey said:VR will have means to preven some contested encounters to be monopolized. But we dont know what that means or how it might work, let alone how much of the contested content it might apply to.
The very small percentage of the player base I'm refering to is all the percentage of the playerbase that need exist to have massive impact. I dont remember your personal history in MMOs if you've described it here, but the uberguilds in EQ used to do exactly what I'm talking about because they found it funny that they could block others from engaging the content. They also liked selling loot rights to the gear. These uberguilds would have plants all over the gameworld watching for raid spawns, and would decend like rabid vultures in a matter of minutes to destroy the target before most of the rest of the server even knew it was up. Now you're laying on another perfectly legitimate and intentional reason for them to continue the trend. You've taken it from what can reasonably be argued as the uberguild just being asshats, to that guild reasonably justifying the activity to get spirit power they "need" to get the "special benefits".
It only takes 1% of a very small logged-in server population to host a formidable raid force. With the scale of the world VR is shooting for and the focus on cooperation, a very small population is unlikely.
I can tell you that I have been a leader of hardcore raiding guilds since I first started playing back in EQOA, and yes, we always killed as much contested content as possible. The important distinction that is lost upon many though, is that we weren't doing this because we thought it would be funny to block others from progressing. We did it because we wanted to make the best use of our time possible. If a guild wants to spend their time killing something, how is their time considered any less valuable than someone elses? We will have plenty of things to keep us busy and I think every person has the right to decide how they spend their time playing the game.
As far as your example problems go, I would respectfully agree to disasgree with you. If a guild wanted to amass as much spirit power as possible, they could just as easily go out and farm higher level group encounters that have some names sprinkled in here and there. Names are worth more, yes, but again that is tied into risk vs reward. The other side of the equation is this ... for all these guilds who have no way of killing contested content because of "ass hat" guilds, they would still be able to benefit from this concept without ever needing to kill a name or a raid boss. There is a progression curve in how the spirit power would be awarded and in my opinion the reward is fitting for the risk. If it's more efficient for a guild to farm yellow to orange level areas, why would they waste their time killing a trivial raid boss? Like I said ... the numbers can be tweaked, but looking at them now, I would imagine the most efficient use of my time would be spent farming yellow to orange group encounter areas that have some names.
I guess my point is this ... the problem you talk about is also associated with loot. If an encounter drops something good, with your mentality, we should just assume that 1000 vultures will populate the area where this item can drop and the big fish always makes out like a champ while the minnow struggles for scraps. Does this mean we shouldn't have any good loot in the game, since it would thus incentivize uber players to camp the hell out of it?
When I came up with this idea, it was based on the risk, not the reward. I don't really care what the reward is at this point but it should be meaningful in the sense that people want it enough that they feel encouraged to play in a way where they are more cognizant of their actions. This isn't about rewarding uber guilds or uber players, this is a concept that could provide something valuable to players that they risk losing if they don't play carefully. It's an idea that reinforces the idea of improving as a player and making intelligent decisions in the game and not treating your character like someone that has infinite respawns. The only way to accomplish that is by giving people something that they stand to lose ... this has already been done in the form of armor repairs and debuffs, but is that enough? For me, that's just time. This is something tangible. This is a finite resource where at one point in time you stand to lose a lot more than another point because of how you strategize your bi-weekly or monthly pooling allotments. That sounds hardcore ... and that's what Pantheon is supposed to be.
oneADseven said:I guess my point is this ... the problem you talk about is also associated with loot. If an encounter drops something good, with your mentality, we should just assume that 1000 vultures will populate the area where this item can drop and the big fish always makes out like a champ while the minnow struggles for scraps. Does this mean we shouldn't have any good loot in the game, since it would thus incentivize uber players to camp the hell out of it?
Yes. it is. And I mentioned it. And then talked about how your system adds on another layer of the same issue.
Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:I guess my point is this ... the problem you talk about is also associated with loot. If an encounter drops something good, with your mentality, we should just assume that 1000 vultures will populate the area where this item can drop and the big fish always makes out like a champ while the minnow struggles for scraps. Does this mean we shouldn't have any good loot in the game, since it would thus incentivize uber players to camp the hell out of it?
Yes. it is. And I mentioned it. And then talked about how your system adds on another layer of the same issue.
Per the FAQ:
"As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you."
It seems like you are against the idea of incentivizing players to be hardcore but I have always been under the impression that this was a game I could play where a hardcore mentality would be embraced.
If you're worried a system like this would incentivize otherwise useless raid target kills for hardcore_guild_01, they could limit it by only giving the spirit point award once per cycle. He mentioned something like monthly cycles, and raid targets generally spawn many times per month. If just 1 kill for the points is motivation enough, then a system like this may even be a good thing as a way of keeping more top heavy guilds busy for longer killing a wider array of things to optimize their advancement.
But even still - raid targets will always be an incentive for every sort of guild. Guilds will always have progeny's leveling, alts to gear, the desire to sell loot, etc. etc.
Anyways, I feel an interesting/unique system like this could be a boon to dying, or rather, inventivizing NOT dying. I'm not sure how the rewards should go though. Probably nothing huge. Maybe a utility spell to save for, an augmentation or two, some cosmetic stuff. I could see leaderboard tracking for a stat like this too.
What about if you could instead use the points for just some sort of buff? Maybe a 24hr buff. Stat buff, or resistance to certain climates, etc etc.
Spend points you earn from killing named with different amounts of points awarded based off mob difficulty as already suggested.
As said before it would create an urge for people to kill all named they came across even if they don't offer any needed loots.
Lose points if you die to create more of an urge to resist death at all opportunities to gain that extra edge.
Maybe unique buffs for everyone depending on class, race, or diety?
I know in a large man raid everyone being able to have a couple points of this stat or that stat could be a huge plus.
Can have one buff at a time, but drop and change to another at the expense of more points.