Also, systems like these (basically points tracking) is about as resource-light as you can get as far as features go. There's no one who has to design new enemies, edit a part of the world, or add animations. It's basically just a numbers game. But you know.. a cool numbers game.
Bazgrim said:That said, this idea does seem to add complications where they're probably not really needed. Although I suppose you'd have to clarify by what you mean by "something beneficial." What types of rewards would be available? But personally, I'd like to keep the types of currencies to a minimum...Simplicity is often best. So in my opinion, we'd have to wait to see if this sort of reinforcement is actually necessary before adding it.
oneADseven said:This feature would be directly tied into the death penalty. On the last day of each month (or one to two times per 30 days if you want to give players more flexibility), players would be allowed to convert their spirit power (accumulated by killing NPC's, the stronger the NPC, the more you get) into something beneficial. Dying would cause you to lose a flat percentage of your spirit power, perhaps somewhere between 25-50%.
The amount of spirit power awarded could scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
I think a feature like this would make the death penalty much more meaningful, particularly at max level when XP debt becomes trivialized. It encourages players to be active adventurers but also reinforces the mindset that any/all deaths should be avoided as much as possible. The spirit power could reset monthly, as in you would be forced to spend it on the best incentive possible every month before it expires. Alternatively, it could be converted into a pool, allowing players to accumulate it over time and save up for something really nice. Once the spirit power is coverted to the pool, it would be granted immunity from future death penalty. Only your active non-converted spirit power would suffer the percentage based hit upon death.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
Not sure this, while an inovative idea, is appropriate. Players will already gain a benefit from defeating mobs. It slants things in the favor of people in larger Raiding Guilds where they already have an advantage. Further, imo it trivializes the game much like WoW does, though the flat percentage exp loss intriques, this may cause people to take unnecessary risks which could in turn cause unwanted consequences to others. While I don't want a to play a game that's difficult for the sake of being difficult, I do want to be challenged. Anyway, it just seems to me that it gives unwarrented rewards for what's been done and already rewarded. Hmm... I just realized that such a system can easily be farmed, if applied to raiding bosses or any tough mob. Once the optimal mythod is learned Spirit Power can then easily be farmed.
Risingmist said:oneADseven said:This feature would be directly tied into the death penalty. On the last day of each month (or one to two times per 30 days if you want to give players more flexibility), players would be allowed to convert their spirit power (accumulated by killing NPC's, the stronger the NPC, the more you get) into something beneficial. Dying would cause you to lose a flat percentage of your spirit power, perhaps somewhere between 25-50%.
The amount of spirit power awarded could scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
I think a feature like this would make the death penalty much more meaningful, particularly at max level when XP debt becomes trivialized. It encourages players to be active adventurers but also reinforces the mindset that any/all deaths should be avoided as much as possible. The spirit power could reset monthly, as in you would be forced to spend it on the best incentive possible every month before it expires. Alternatively, it could be converted into a pool, allowing players to accumulate it over time and save up for something really nice. Once the spirit power is coverted to the pool, it would be granted immunity from future death penalty. Only your active non-converted spirit power would suffer the percentage based hit upon death.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
Not sure this, while an inovative idea, is appropriate. Players will already gain a benefit from defeating mobs. It slants things in the favor of people in larger Raiding Guilds where they already have an advantage. Further, imo it trivializes the game much like WoW does, though the flat percentage exp loss intriques, this may cause people to take unnecessary risks which could in turn cause unwanted consequences to others. While I don't want a to play a game that's difficult for the sake of being difficult, I do want to be challenged. Anyway, it just seems to me that it gives unwarrented rewards for what's been done and already rewarded. Hmm... I just realized that such a system can easily be farmed, if applied to raiding bosses or any tough mob. Once the optimal mythod is learned Spirit Power can then easily be farmed.
The idea isn't really about whether or not you gain a benefit from killing mobs.
It's about creating a reason to resist death by giving some sort of reward for not dieing.
They already said you won't be able to de-level. So once you hit max level who cares if you die? Maybe by creating some sort of alternate reward system you can get people to always want to not die other than having the time sink of getting back to your body or death effects, etc.
Not a bad idea imo.
Lokispawn said:If you're worried a system like this would incentivize otherwise useless raid target kills for hardcore_guild_01, they could limit it by only giving the spirit point award once per cycle. He mentioned something like monthly cycles, and raid targets generally spawn many times per month. If just 1 kill for the points is motivation enough, then a system like this may even be a good thing as a way of keeping more top heavy guilds busy for longer killing a wider array of things to optimize their advancement.
But even still - raid targets will always be an incentive for every sort of guild. Guilds will always have progeny's leveling, alts to gear, the desire to sell loot, etc. etc.
Anyways, I feel an interesting/unique system like this could be a boon to dying, or rather, inventivizing NOT dying. I'm not sure how the rewards should go though. Probably nothing huge. Maybe a utility spell to save for, an augmentation or two, some cosmetic stuff. I could see leaderboard tracking for a stat like this too.
Yeah I mentioned there could be some sort of monthly ladder, I think something like that would be pretty awesome! Would a concept like this have a positive impact on the quality of life/death penalty for our characters, particularly at max level? That is the question. Most of us want a more challenging game ... we are tired of the hand-holding. I want a real sense of danger when I play and I would really love to see something implemented in the game that could enhance that sensation. I'm sure the game will have a great sense of risk/reward implemented through all of the ideas/concepts that VR has already come up with ... but this could be something extra.
As far as rewards go, the reason I said "something beneficial" in the OP is because I didn't want this to turn into a debate on how over-powered the rewards would be. The rewards are irrelvant at this point because if the concept itself doesen't make sense then we are just wasting energy thinking about the rewards. Personally, though, I would be perfectly fine with the rewards that you listed. Nothing too crazy but there is enough there to motivate people to participate in the system.
Another angle for this idea is that it could be something that only goes into effect at max level. Prior to max level people already stand to lose experience upon death which is very valuable. I think death should be just as impactful late game as it is early on and if experience loss goes away at max level, what can we add to replace it? I understand that armor repairs will go up on higher level armor, but you make so much more money at max level that it trivializes the cost.
I think most players will already be fully cognizant of the consequences of death by the time they reach max level, and those consequences are something I would like to see stick around. I really think death should be more impactful than a short duration debuff and paying a few gold for armor repairs ... if something is valuable to you, you will cherish it! If my character's life is only worth 5 minutes and 20 gold, how do you think that makes me feel? That's when people pull LEEEEROY JENKINS for the hell of it ... and not to take away from that epic achievement, but I don't want to see that in my groups or raids.
I want people to be on their A game and I believe in the tried and true method of rewarding positive behavior. Instead of penalizing someone for dying, I look at this as a way to reinforce the good behaviors of people that do their best to avoid death. The rewards wouldn't be crazy ... just something fun, flavorful, and desirable. Add in some sort of utility spell/buff that can only be acquired by converting a large amount of spirit power over time and how do you think people will view their characters deaths? Knowing that each death would push me further away from achieving my goal to acquire that spell, I would go out of my way to be extra prepared at all times. I would like to see something that takes months of good "death behavior" before it's accessible. If someone plays reckless, well, it's going to take them much longer to get it. It's the same concept as leveling really but extending it beyond max level.
I really like Cobes idea as well. In Vanguard, diplomats had the ability to use their skills to earn buffs for their raid teams. If this concept could be utilized in a way where people could earn 24 hour buffs, that would be awesome! I think people would respect the environment and it's dangers a lot more if they knew that a slip-up would cost them something of value. For me, that's going to take more than a short debuff and some gold. Player renown on the leaderboards could also be used to great effect and I think it would be pretty cool if the top 10 people per month received something cool. This isn't something that would benefit raiders either ... we'll be dying more than anybody. The people at the top of the leaderboard will be masters of life and risk mitigation ... good for them!
I get the point of the idea. Just not in agreement with it. At max LvL and many power gamers would keep their eye an the ball, i.e. next expansion and it's raiding content, and will keep practicing their raiding skills accordingly. Also that's a wonderful time to explore alts. This helps to keep lower lvl areas populated and increases game longevity. Basically it's when a player enjoy the trill again with a different class and playstyle. As for rewards for gaining Spirit. Well if the rewards are minor, a large death pentalty imo would be unwarrented, the penalties would greatly outweigh the gains. Though that would be for the player to decide. lol in Star Wars galaxies I took great risks in Mustafar...all because I wanted a table for my house! It was a lovely table lol. The again I had no added risk/penalty other than was already built in. Still player choice. Not sure how many would make that choice were an overly onerous penalty involved.
I'm also thinking of the great raiding guilds of EQ and exceptional players who knew how to get the most of their class and kill more or less what they wanted. Anyway, sticking to a raiding scenario 1st step would be lvling. Then gearing for raids. Follow that by raiding to gain ever more powerful gear. Once the techinques/mythods for defeating raid bosses/ world bosses are down to a science... Spirit becomes a matter of farming. Farming is farming...the rules may change yet, the game remains...it's just the nature of the beasty.....gaining power and ever more power via knowledge, skill and experience.... Bear in mind that intially the topic implied a great reward potential.
I'm not being a naysayer here. I regard this from the mindset of chess. I read the posts, considered moves in advance, and saw the possible end result being a farmimg paradise. Then again this may all be acedemic. Not sure Panthion will have an end game as per se. Seems VR is attempting to avoid that.
Risingmist said:I get the point of the idea. Just not in agreement with it. At max LvL and many power gamers would keep their eye an the ball, i.e. next expansion and it's raiding content, and will keep practicing their raiding skills accordingly. Also that's a wonderful time to explore alts. This helps to keep lower lvl areas populated and increases game longevity. Basically it's when a player enjoy the trill again with a different class and playstyle. As for rewards for gaining Spirit. Well if the rewards are minor, a large death pentalty imo would be unwarrented, the penalties would greatly outweigh the gains. Though that would be for the player to decide. lol in Star Wars galaxies I took great risks in Mustafar...all because I wanted a table for my house! It was a lovely table lol. The again I had no added risk/penalty other than was already built in. Still player choice. Not sure how many would make that choice were an overly onerous penalty involved.
I'm also thinking of the great raiding guilds of EQ and exceptional players who knew how to get the most of their class and kill more or less what they wanted. Anyway, sticking to a raiding scenario 1st step would be lvling. Then gearing for raids. Follow that by raiding to gain ever more powerful gear. Once the techinques/mythods for defeating raid bosses/ world bosses are down to a science... Spirit becomes a matter of farming. Farming is farming...the rules may change yet, the game remains...it's just the nature of the beasty.....gaining power and ever more power via knowledge, skill and experience.... Bear in mind that intially the topic implied a great reward potential.
I'm not being a naysayer here. I regard this from the mindset of chess. I read the posts, considered moves in advance, and saw the possible end result being a farmimg paradise. Then again this may all be acedemic. Not sure Panthion will have an end game as per se. Seems VR is attempting to avoid that.
I'm not sure why people think that only hardcore raiders would farm this stuff. If anything, raiders would be at a natural disadvantage because their "raider calling" drives them to plenty of deaths. This system would reward people who take less risks ... and that's fine. If someone wants to play super safe-like to stack up spirit, good for them! Personally, I would continue to push the envelope and take risks, and with those risks feeling more risky ... I would get much more satisfaction when I come out ahead. If this system were implemented, I would probably pick a 4 day stretch per month where my guild was raiding some of the easier content and use that time to grind my spirit power while my risk of death is the lowest. If people get to the point where stuff is on farm status ... good for them! They likely endured months of practice pulls and countless deaths to get to that point and now it's time for them to catch up to those who opted for less risky endeavors.
oneADseven said:This feature would be directly tied into the death penalty. On the last day of each month (or one to two times per 30 days if you want to give players more flexibility), players would be allowed to convert their spirit power (accumulated by killing NPC's, the stronger the NPC, the more you get) into something beneficial. Dying would cause you to lose a flat percentage of your spirit power, perhaps somewhere between 25-50%.
The amount of spirit power awarded could scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
I think a feature like this would make the death penalty much more meaningful, particularly at max level when XP debt becomes trivialized. It encourages players to be active adventurers but also reinforces the mindset that any/all deaths should be avoided as much as possible. The spirit power could reset monthly, as in you would be forced to spend it on the best incentive possible every month before it expires. Alternatively, it could be converted into a pool, allowing players to accumulate it over time and save up for something really nice. Once the spirit power is coverted to the pool, it would be granted immunity from future death penalty. Only your active non-converted spirit power would suffer the percentage based hit upon death.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
So you're creating a second 'bank' of XP basically that you build up just by going out and XPing. But why is it needed? You mention some 'benefit' but give no examples. What kind of benefits? How long do they last? How much do they cost? Are the persistent or do they fade? If they fade, how quickly?
I don't mind people putting forth ideas, but when you don't give enough for us to think on the natural reaction is to downplay it, criticize it. Flesh this out more otherwise I too have to say this is a terrible idea and should be summarily ignored...which it will be anyway because VR already has the death penalty fleshed out.
Vandraad said:oneADseven said:This feature would be directly tied into the death penalty. On the last day of each month (or one to two times per 30 days if you want to give players more flexibility), players would be allowed to convert their spirit power (accumulated by killing NPC's, the stronger the NPC, the more you get) into something beneficial. Dying would cause you to lose a flat percentage of your spirit power, perhaps somewhere between 25-50%.
The amount of spirit power awarded could scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
I think a feature like this would make the death penalty much more meaningful, particularly at max level when XP debt becomes trivialized. It encourages players to be active adventurers but also reinforces the mindset that any/all deaths should be avoided as much as possible. The spirit power could reset monthly, as in you would be forced to spend it on the best incentive possible every month before it expires. Alternatively, it could be converted into a pool, allowing players to accumulate it over time and save up for something really nice. Once the spirit power is coverted to the pool, it would be granted immunity from future death penalty. Only your active non-converted spirit power would suffer the percentage based hit upon death.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
So you're creating a second 'bank' of XP basically that you build up just by going out and XPing. But why is it needed? You mention some 'benefit' but give no examples. What kind of benefits? How long do they last? How much do they cost? Are the persistent or do they fade? If they fade, how quickly?
I don't mind people putting forth ideas, but when you don't give enough for us to think on the natural reaction is to downplay it, criticize it. Flesh this out more otherwise I too have to say this is a terrible idea and should be summarily ignored...which it will be anyway because VR already has the death penalty fleshed out.
To ignor this topic seems a tad harsh. While I disagree with it, it is a valid point open for discussion. Essentially, the idea is to offer people at max lvl an incentive to take risks that could also cause them an exp penalty, so people will have a reason/incentive to keep playing their max lvl characters.
Note: the reason for this edit is due to a word I mispelled that I though was crutial
Vandraad said:oneADseven said:This feature would be directly tied into the death penalty. On the last day of each month (or one to two times per 30 days if you want to give players more flexibility), players would be allowed to convert their spirit power (accumulated by killing NPC's, the stronger the NPC, the more you get) into something beneficial. Dying would cause you to lose a flat percentage of your spirit power, perhaps somewhere between 25-50%.
The amount of spirit power awarded could scale higher and higher based on the challenge level of each NPC killed. Here is a rough outline:
(For the sake of discussion, raid bosses would only award full points if they are white con or higher, anything blue-con or lower would be treated as a named group NPC of the same con.)
Contested large raid size boss = 50 spirit power
Contested mid raid size boss = 35 spirit power
Contested small raid size boss = 25 spirit power
Non-Contested large raid size boss = 20 spirit power
Non-Contested mid raid size boss = 15 spirit power
Non-Contested small raid size boss = 10 spirit power
Red-Con named group NPC = 8 spirit power
Orange-Con named group NPC = 6 spirit power
Yellow-Con named group NPC = 5 spirit power
White-Con named group NPC = 3 spirit power
Blue-Con named group NPC = 2 spirit power
Green-Con named group NPC = 1 spirit power
Red-con group NPC = .5 spirit power
Orange-con group NPC = .4 spirit power
Yellow-con group NPC = .3 spirit power
White-con Group NPC = .2 spirit power
Blue-con Group NPC = .075 spirit power
Green-con Group NPC = .025 spirit power
I think a feature like this would make the death penalty much more meaningful, particularly at max level when XP debt becomes trivialized. It encourages players to be active adventurers but also reinforces the mindset that any/all deaths should be avoided as much as possible. The spirit power could reset monthly, as in you would be forced to spend it on the best incentive possible every month before it expires. Alternatively, it could be converted into a pool, allowing players to accumulate it over time and save up for something really nice. Once the spirit power is coverted to the pool, it would be granted immunity from future death penalty. Only your active non-converted spirit power would suffer the percentage based hit upon death.
The color con system has been used in many games but here is a reference point:
Red-con = 8 levels or higher
Orange-con = 4-7 levels higher
Yellow-con = 1-3 levels higher
White-con = Even level
Blue-con = 1-3 levels lower
Green-con = 4-7 levels lower
Grey-con = 8 levels or lower
So you're creating a second 'bank' of XP basically that you build up just by going out and XPing. But why is it needed? You mention some 'benefit' but give no examples. What kind of benefits? How long do they last? How much do they cost? Are the persistent or do they fade? If they fade, how quickly?
I don't mind people putting forth ideas, but when you don't give enough for us to think on the natural reaction is to downplay it, criticize it. Flesh this out more otherwise I too have to say this is a terrible idea and should be summarily ignored...which it will be anyway because VR already has the death penalty fleshed out.
I appreciate all of the questions, but it appears that you didn't actually read through the entire thread. The questions you ask have been answered. Several people have chimed in with potential benefits that I commented on, saying that I agreed with them. I also pointed out that I left this part of the discussion open-ended and encouraged other players in the community to share their own insight on the idea. One thing I have learned during my time in this community is that presenting a fully fleshed out idea never works. When you do that, people complain that it's too rigid and that you have no foundation to base anything concrete off of. Rather than doing that and inviting a family of trolls through my front door, I felt it would be more appropriate to keep certain aspects of the concept fluid.
I also pointed out that I would prefer that the "rewards" be left up to VR to prevent this thread from turning into a derail fest where everybody complains about the benefits being over-powered, catered to raiders, etc. This thread isn't about the rewards as much as it is about the cost of death for players at max level. I don't care what the rewards are, I just care that they are desirable enough to encourage people to avoid death as much as possible. If you don't have anything positive to add to the discussion then I would love to take you up on the offer of summarily ignoring this thread. Thank you.
The system doesnt make you respect death. It just gives you incentive to do things you know you'll succeed at for bonus cookies. It actually runs directly counter to living at the edge of your skills and really setting your sites high. (Edit: Read as - It punishes people for challenging themselves, and rewards people for taking the easy road.)
I can absolutely respect the fact that at max level death as less meaning in almost every game. I think the idea of fearing death at max level could be far more easily attained by simply saying that if you're maxed on xp you get a +% to power of your spells and skills. One wipe attempting that really nasty top tier mob would knock the entire raid force's potential down by something like 1-2%, and maybe even require them to scrap the night's attempt and go out and xp to reach cap again so that another try was viable.
The system just creates too many incentives that are destructive to the community, is overly complex, and doesnt actually solve the issue it means to solve.
Feyshtey said:The system doesnt make you respect death. It just gives you incentive to do things you know you'll succeed at for bonus cookies. It actually runs directly counter to living at the edge of your skills and really setting your sites high.
I can absolutely respect the fact that at max level death as less meaning in almost every game. I think the idea of fearing death at max level could be far more easily attained by simply saying that if you're maxed on xp you get a +% to power of your spells and skills. One wipe attempting that really nasty top tier mob would knock the entire raid force's potential down by something like 1-2%, and maybe even require them to scrap the night's attempt and go out and xp to reach cap again so that another try was viable.
The system just creates too many incentives that are destructive to the community, is overly complex, and doesnt actually solve the issue it means to solve.
It appears that you are dead set in your argument but I'd like to touch on a couple things.
"The system doesnt make you respect death."
This is completely subjective. As someone who has been playing MMO's for nearly 15 years I can confidently say that the concept I proposed would have a direct impact on how much I would respect any potential death for my characters.
"It just gives you incentive to do things you know you'll succeed at for bonus cookies."
This isn't an idea that I came up with for "me" ... in fact, I specifically spelled out how hardcore raiders will be at a disadvantage when it comes to a concept like this due to the hazardous nature of our style of gameplay. If your definition of "success" is killing things then you obviously haven't gotten the message. Success with this system would be measured by how often people avoid death. I could spend 25 straight days farming without a single death and amass a whopping 10,000 spirit power ... does that mean I was successful? No. Let's say I die 10 times before I have a chance to bank it. Using a 50% reduction per death, that 10,000 is now 10. Sounds like a single crushed fortune cookie to me.
"It actually runs directly counter to living at the edge of your skills and really setting your sites high."
You claim that the system wouldn't solve the issue it's meant to solve, but then drop this dime piece. Sounds a bit contradictive to me. You just admitted that the system "runs directly counter to living at the edge" ... my point made, precisely! That's literally the definition of respecting death wrapped up in a box with a bow on it, thank you!
"I think the idea of fearing death at max level could be far more easily attained by simply saying that if you're maxed on xp you get a +% to power of your spells and skills. One wipe attempting that really nasty top tier mob would knock the entire raid force's potential down by something like 1-2%, and maybe even require them to scrap the night's attempt and go out and xp to reach cap again so that another try was viable."
One wipe could cause a top tier encounter to no longer be viable? Top tier mobs will require a massive amount of death in most cases and to suggest that a single wipe could cause a mob to no longer be viable until more XP is earned is absolutely ludicrous. Beyond that, you also promote your idea as something "far more easily attained" while labeling my idea as "destructive and overly complex." At this point, I think it would be fair to say that you quite simply do not like me. You have never had a single positive thing to say about any of my ideas, and I have shared many! That's a disturbing pattern but it also provides relief in the sense that I fully acknowledge that no idea will please everybody. Seeing as many of my ideas have been generally well received by the community, I can chalk this up as an anomaly and move on with my day. I am sorry that my thoughts/ideas are not up to par with your standards.
"The system just creates too many incentives that are destructive to the community, is overly complex, and doesnt actually solve the issue it means to solve."
I have coined a phrase for situations like this, and it's something you'll probably see a lot more of from me if we have future exchanges. "Sounds good."
I just don't see why death needs to be something to fear at max level. You've put in the countless hours of work to get there and that's just sort of one of the rewards, that you finally get to really push your limits and take more risks to better your character. It's still inconvienent which is fine.
Iksar said:I just don't see why death needs to be something to fear at max level. You've put in the countless hours of work to get there and that's just sort of one of the rewards, that you finally get to really push your limits and take more risks to better your character. It's still inconvienent which is fine.
I understand your point and agree that players shouldn't necessarily "fear" death. I would, however, like to see players "respect" it. I don't think it makes sense for people to just fling their characters around without a care in the world. Speaking from a hardcore raiding perspective, I expect many deaths to occur between me and my comrades. Unless this system does not count deaths from raid mobs, it could end up being a thorn in our side in the sense that we wouldn't be able to take advantage of some of the rewards from this system until much later in the game when we have everything on farm status.
At the end of the day, though, I feel that it's very important that we embrace the philosophy that death is meaningful at all levels. I don't think players should get a free pass once they get to max level; death should be just as impactful then as it was during the leveling up phase. Pantheon is defined as a "hardcore" game right? If you look at the hardcore rulesets for most games, death has an increased penalty and is sometimes permanent. If I raid a certain boss that usually wipes us a few times, but then one week we kill it on the first shot ... I would like the sense of victory to be more than just saving 10 minutes of time. We adjusted our strategy, executed it with precision, and now get to reap the rewards.
Life and death should provide a sense of adrenaline and if the penalty for death is decreased at max level, that adrenaline is replaced with a boring loading screen. I feel that the end-game would feel engaging rather than repetitive if we have to continue fighting for our lives. Whether we're talking about magic tricks, arena battles, stunt drivers, mountain climbers, skydivers, scubadivers, tightrope walkers, etc ... there is a certain rush that people get to experience when they feel like they are overcoming a sense of danger. Decreasing the death penalty at max level is like teaching a kid to ride their bike without training wheels, and then once they have it figured out, you force them to use training wheels for the rest of their life. Please ... no.
The game is not defined as a "hardcore" game anywhere that I can see.
- 1.1 Who is the targeted player (demographic) base for this game, and why?
While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players looking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon.
- 1.1.1 Does that mean that Pantheon’s target audience is just older players, the gamers who played and enjoyed many of the first generation of MMOs?
- Absolutely not. There are many younger players out there who enjoy cooperative and social play. They love playing PC and console games, regardless of genre, with their friends and against the game’s AI. When these younger gamers play Pantheon, they’ll find that cooperative play, but in a lasting, persistent, and content-rich virtual world. Millions of players have been exposed to massively multiplayer games in the last 15+ years. So, while we’re not trying to appeal to everyone, Pantheon will attract a large group of gamers, both young and old.
I think the sense of victory should be that your group is now better and can consider stronger content or just roll around in their top notch loot. I think you can respect death once you have obtained max level even if you no longer fear the exp loss. Personally I have never experienced a sense of adrenaline for dying, just a sense of loss and a certain weight. Even when maxed in EQ the corpse run was often brutal enough to make me not want to die. I mean you are still fighting for your life and I don't know what a reward system has to do with anything. The proposed system would either end up disproportionately rewarding raiders (who will already be reaping the best rewards) or people will find the best way to game the system and find the easiest path, likely AoE groups raining hell on the lowest possible mobs that reward this currency. I can't help but see it as a bad form of alternate advancement only with items or skills or whatever, because the reward for this would have to be entirely worth it or it's pointless and ignorable.
I'd say it's closer to working for years and years to win a gold medal in the olympics and finally doing it. It doesn't matter what you do at that point, you did it. You have the gold and are forever an olympic athlete, but along the way you could have always fallen to lower tiers and qualification. Or in your analogy it's more like you learn to ride a bike without any padding and once you finally have it mastered you start wearing the helmet and other protection so you can start trying big jumps and crazy tricks.
But we don't know what happens at max level. Maybe you do still use and lose exp for something(s)? Maybe it is tied into the progeny system?
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death."
The spirit conversion concept is literally predicated on the very first sentence. With this system, players would be forced to respect their environment, but they are also enticed by it because every NPC they kill can offer additional spirit power. When a player dies, they lose some of that spirit power. Spirit power can be used to buy something desirable. I don't want to lose my spirit power! Sounds like an incentive to avoid death to me!
"That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
This is a great point, and perhaps rather than a % based reduction, it would make more sense if players lost a set value that could depend on several variables. Perhaps each death would scale the amount lost. Let's say it starts at 100 for the first death, 200 for the second death, 300 for the third death, and eventually caps at around 500, but resets daily? This is where the banking aspect comes into play, and it should be flexible enough so that players can develop a strategy with how often they use it. What if, rather than limiting players to bank their spirit power a couple times per month, they can do it an unlimited amount of times? The first time per week would be free, but every time after that would cost currency and the cost would continue to scale up every time you bank it per week. After the week is over that cost would reset to the point where your first spirit power bank is free and then it continues to scale up again. This could be an awesome plat sink. It allows players to mitigate the risk of their deaths for a cost while still maintaining a constant sense of danger/risk while they have any unbanked spirit power on their person.
I feel something like this would strike a very reasonable balance where all player types can benefit from the system and it's flexible enough to allow them to mitigate their risk. At any given moment, players would need to be cognizant of their surroundings and do their best to avoid death. They are still incentivized to adventure in the world as much as possible to maximize how much spirit power they can accumulate, and with the daily/weekly reset timers, there is enough of a cushion present that they won't find themself in a hole that they can't climb out of. By adding a currency cost to the banking process, this also introduces an important plat sink into the game that can help stem off inflation. By making the rewards for this system desirable, the art of avoiding death should be at the forefront of every player's mind while they navigate the dangerous world of Terminus. This kind of end-game risk vs reward death penalty would be very appealing to me.
*I have edited the OP to reflect some of the ideas in this post that have helped evolve the original concept.
The best way, perhaps, to give Max LvL players a healthy dose of a danger sense may simply be to have a death penalty to Max LvL players as well. I'm aware the Devs state now that Max LvL Characters won't lose exp. Though perhaps the Devs in their wisdom will revisit that stance.
Beefcake said:I am pretty sure, at this point, VR has already decided what systems will be in place. I doubt they are going to take up additional, convoluted systems to add in that would just delay their plans.
Let them get THEIR game out. Then we can start begging for feature creep.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I dont think anything in set in stone with much at the moment.
Risingmist said:The best way, perhaps, to give Max LvL players a healthy dose of a danger sense may simply be to have a death penalty to Max LvL players as well. I'm aware the Devs state now that Max LvL Characters won't lose exp. Though perhaps the Devs in their wisdom will revisit that stance.
I really hope they do revisit this as well. Means once youre max level you can just run through any dungeon and check things out without worrying if you die. The thing that keeps the world large is the unknown, and if we can run around and not care and see everything then whats the point.
This (spiritual conversion) sounds a lot like how AAs work in EQ1, sort of like AAs 2.0. At least the core principles of it. Reach max level and then instead of gaining/losing xp towards AAs you gain/lose xp towards spritual conversion. Obviously there are some details that differentiate the two but they are similar to a large degree imo and with seeing it this way the least I can say is that AAs didn't ruin EQ.
My concern/problem/issue would be that since this seems very similar to how AAs were handled in EQ1 that it wouldn't make people 'fear' death. AAs were more of a means to progress after max level, rather than a means to respect death. So I guess the million dollar question is 'just how much would people care about losing spiritual conversion upon their death'. Would this alone be enough? Would the rewards/benefits that you could 'purchase' with your spirit points have to be considered and detailed? Etc etc.
NoobieDoo said:This (spiritual conversion) sounds a lot like how AAs work in EQ1, sort of like AAs 2.0. At least the core principles of it. Reach max level and then instead of gaining/losing xp towards AAs you gain/lose xp towards spritual conversion. Obviously there are some details that differentiate the two but they are similar to a large degree imo and with seeing it this way the least I can say is that AAs didn't ruin EQ.
My concern/problem/issue would be that since this seems very similar to how AAs were handled in EQ1 that it wouldn't make people 'fear' death. AAs were more of a means to progress after max level, rather than a means to respect death. So I guess the million dollar question is 'just how much would people care about losing spiritual conversion upon their death'. Would this alone be enough? Would the rewards/benefits that you could 'purchase' with your spirit points have to be considered and detailed? Etc etc.
Very valid questions and this is something I hope we can continue to work on as we learn more about the game. I tried to avoid getting into the rewards too much because I really don't want the thread to turn into a raider vs non-raider fest which has already started to happen some. I wouldn't say the rewards from this system would be like AA, although I will admit that the idea of having AA's and multiple specs (as long as they remain true to the original archetype) in the game is something I am a huge fan of. I have been working with a very awesome member of the community on another concept that discusses some cool ideas on how it could be done but I'll save that post for another day as I don't want to derail this thread.
At this point, the rewards related to spirit conversion are something I have confidence in VR being able to balance into the equation should a system like this exist. It doesen't serve us much purpose to speculate on exactly what they would be at this moment in time, but I think it's fair to say that they should be meaningful and desirable. The better they are, the more vested people will be in avoiding death at max level and the more gold/plat that will be extracted from the economy. I am truly fascinated by the AA concept and think it would be the best option by far, but if that isn't possible there are still plenty of other options that could be implemented.
I guess the question right now is ... if a concept like this were implemented, and the incentives for avoiding death were meaningful, would the concept serve it's purpose in encouraging players to avoid death at max level? If the incentive path was deep enough, would this entice players to continue pushing the envelope in their adventuring while still being mindful and weary enough to respect death? For me, I can sound off with a very emphtatic yes. I would love to see an end game where we continue to be challenged in the sense that flinging our characters around like ragdolls would have an appropriate cost while playing with tact and finesse provides a benefit.
There is a quote for this kind of feeling that I would like to share:
"Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome." -- Arthur Ashe
I would like to see some sort of system like this, that is used maybe for more temporary or easy to lose benefits. Obviously, it could be used later on for things like AAs as well.
That way even once you have gotten a bunch of spirit power dying still hurts.
That said, I don't think it should be too hard to get. Otherwise people find themselves farming spirit power as a sort of job so they can keep up with their guildies. You'd see all sorts of problems like people not feeling like they have enough time to make alts or to even play the game for casual raiding. (because every raid they gotta farm up a whole bunch of spirit power to compete).
Taledar said:Beefcake said:I am pretty sure, at this point, VR has already decided what systems will be in place. I doubt they are going to take up additional, convoluted systems to add in that would just delay their plans.
Let them get THEIR game out. Then we can start begging for feature creep.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I dont think anything in set in stone with much at the moment.
We actually do have a lot set in place that we will not be changing until we get it tested and gather feedback/tweak etc. We have been planning and developing Pantheon for a couple fo years now, so it is safe to say that many things are already covered and in place from all of the feedback and discussions that we have had over that time with you folks, there has to be some point in time when it becomes important to test the ideas, systems, features and mechanics that we have implemented, which is also why we will be changing to a more "game" centric mindset for the new forums and leaving the "dev forms" mindset behind with these ones, we are pretty much past the stage of requiring idea's and feedback and not into putting them into action and testing them, so while we love hearing thoughts and ideas it is usually just for fun or discussion amongst yourselves, we have most of these things covered for our game now :)
Kilsin said:We actually do have a lot set in place that we will not be changing until we get it tested and gather feedback/tweak etc. We have been planning and developing Pantheon for a couple fo years now, so it is safe to say that many things are already covered and in place from all of the feedback and discussions that we have had over that time with you folks, there has to be some point in time when it becomes important to test the ideas, systems, features and mechanics that we have implemented, which is also why we will be changing to a more "game" centric mindset for the new forums and leaving the "dev forms" mindset behind with these ones, we are pretty much past the stage of requiring idea's and feedback and not into putting them into action and testing them, so while we love hearing thoughts and ideas it is usually just for fun or discussion amongst yourselves, we have most of these things covered for our game now :)
I got a question about the new forums. Since we're getting pre-alpha access soon, and there's an NDA on all testing phases will the new forums be restricted from public view?