So far we have seen female models that should be less feminine, and are.
In the first two streams, we saw Kilsin's female human rogue, but with a relatively limited amount of close-up time. Additionally, the game was quite early in development then, so the fact that the character wasn't intensely feminine should be taken with your grains of salt.
EDIT: Found a good clip of Kilsin's female rogue in the second stream. Look at her as she stands, and as she walks, you clearly see her bigger butt and thicker thighs. I personally immediately realized she was female, but if others didn't, please look again at Saradir, the female rogue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oNVecHjiJI&feature=youtu.be&t
Look at about 7:30 to see Saradir standing. Look at about 10 minutes to see her running. Very clearly female.
Later we saw the female human warrior. This is a warrior, folks. To gain the skill she has, she would be training vigorously on a daily basis. Breasts don't last when you're slim and trim. The extra weight on your hips known as "love handles" don't maintain when you're undergoing that kind of training. Additionally, the model we saw was wearing heavy plate armor (which by the way looks ******* FANTASTIC. So excited to see full heavy plate that looks so damn good, somehow both realistic yet fantasy! A++++).
If you're wearing heavy armor, you're doing it for protection, not style, unless you're going to some ceremony (here's to hoping we do have option for some more ornate ceremony armors!). The armor itself would hide much of the figure of the woman just by its sheer weight and coverage. Boobies squish when weight is put upon them.
Does anyone have an issue with the clothing women wear in the US Army or National Guard? My sister was in the National Guard for eight years and her uniform made her look much less feminine.
Look at these examples. They are strong warrior women who are definitely women, but perhaps not so obviously women on first glance. And that's okay. That's how a warrior woman should be.
Wonder Woman and Xena Warrior Princess gave us such unrealistic expectations for warrior women, and that's just not what Pantheon is going for. They're going for a more immersive, realistic feel. It's been stated not only in the FAQ, but by a dev at every turn.
Now all that being said, do I expect to see an Enchanter with a bit more curve? Sure, why not. She doesn't necessarily have to undergo the rigorous physical training a warrior would. Let her be curvy, even chubby if that's what's wanted! Additionally, her lighter armor/clothing wouldn't conceal her curves when donned, so we would be able to note the feminity much more easily. I would hope that even were we allowed to make a female warrior with a bit more curve, much of that would be hidden by the heavy armor she wore. On that note, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a simple clothing change would reveal the female warrior seen in the latest stream had more of a figure.
We also saw Gnomes, which since they have no physical body, are incapable of having the traits we normally consider feminine, such as large breasts, curvaceous hips, or thick thighs. They don't have any breasts, any hips, or any thighs! This clearly isn't a case where we can say that the female Gnome was feminine enough, because they don't conform to our human standards at all!
On that topic, what would it take to make a Dark Myr seem feminine? Would we hold them to human standards? I feel as though large breasts and the extra fat tissue to make thicker thighs or love handles would not be helpful for a race that may spend time under the water... not floating on top... since fat floats...
And Skar? What makes a Skar feminine? What makes an Ogre feminine? Or is this conversation/thread really only relating to the human models?
EDIT: I would request to see a human female in light armor in the next stream, whether that be as an Enchanter, or Wizard, or what-have-you. That way we could see some more curves, and see how light armor/robes/clothing might look on the human ladies of Terminus.
Temmi said:So far we have seen female models that should be less feminine, and are.
In the first two streams, we saw Kilsin's female human rogue, but with a relatively limited amount of close-up time. Additionally, the game was quite early in development then, so the fact that the character wasn't intensely feminine should be taken with your grains of salt.
Later we saw the female human warrior. This is a warrior, folks. To gain the skill she has, she would be training vigorously on a daily basis. Breasts don't last when you're slim and trim. The extra weight on your hips known as "love handles" don't maintain when you're undergoing that kind of training. Additionally, the model we saw was wearing heavy plate armor (which by the way looks ******* FANTASTIC. So excited to see full heavy plate that looks so damn good, somehow both realistic yet fantasy! A++++).
If you're wearing heavy armor, you're doing it for protection, not style, unless you're going to some ceremony (here's to hoping we do have option for some more ornate ceremony armors!). The armor itself would hide much of the figure of the woman just by its sheer weight and coverage. Boobies squish when weight is put upon them.
Does anyone have an issue with the clothing women wear in the US Army or National Guard? My sister was in the National Guard for eight years and her uniform made her look much less feminine.
Look at these examples. They are strong warrior women who are definitely women, but perhaps not so obviously women on first glance. And that's okay. That's how a warrior woman should be.
Wonder Woman and Xena Warrior Princess gave us such unrealistic expectations for warrior women, and that's just not what Pantheon is going for. They're going for a more immersive, realistic feel. It's been stated not only in the FAQ, but by a dev at every turn.
Now all that being said, do I expect to see an Enchanter with a bit more curve? Sure, why not. She doesn't necessarily have to undergo the rigorous physical training a warrior would. Let her be curvy, even chubby if that's what's wanted! Additionally, her lighter armor/clothing wouldn't conceal her curves when donned, so we would be able to note the feminity much more easily. I would hope that even were we allowed to make a female warrior with a bit more curve, much of that would be hidden by the heavy armor she wore. On that note, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a simple clothing change would reveal the female warrior seen in the latest stream had more of a figure.
We also saw Gnomes, which since they have no physical body, are incapable of having the traits we normally consider feminine, such as large breasts, curvaceous hips, or thick thighs. They don't have any breasts, any hips, or any thighs! This clearly isn't a case where we can say that the female Gnome was feminine enough, because they don't conform to our human standards at all!
On that topic, what would it take to make a Dark Myr seem feminine? Would we hold them to human standards? I feel as though large breasts and the extra fat tissue to make thicker thighs or love handles would not be helpful for a race that may spend time under the water... not floating on top... since fat floats...
And Skar? What makes a Skar feminine? What makes an Ogre feminine? Or is this conversation/thread really only relating to the human models?
EDIT: I would request to see a human female in light armor in the next stream, whether that be as an Enchanter, or Wizard, or what-have-you. That way we could see some more curves, and see how light armor/robes/clothing might look on the human ladies of Terminus.
I agree with this, but i think its been said their going the route of boob armor
Kilsin said:That is a great post and comparison, thank you :)
We only showed off our default Human Female Warrior and Gnome (which is hard to tell for that race), Warriors are tough and wear plate, we even have breast moulds for more comfort for our female Warrior, which would be a luxury in normal combat!
My Female Rogue model in the first two streams was a bit sexier while still being appropriately dressed for her stealthy adventures.
Second and third pictures have acommodations for boobs. Even the warrior in the livestream had a liiiiiiitle bit of boob room, or so it seemed?
Having armor tailored for women and having some extra space in the breastplate for, well, breasts is different than having egregiously sexualized armor.
Temmi said:Second and third pictures have acommodations for boobs. Even the warrior in the livestream had a liiiiiiitle bit of boob room, or so it seemed?
Having armor tailored for women and having some extra space in the breastplate for, well, breasts is different than having egregiously sexualized armor.
I hadn’t noticed till you said something, but that seems very tasteful, and not endangering the warrior wearing it.
Temmi said:Second and third pictures have acommodations for boobs. Even the warrior in the livestream had a liiiiiiitle bit of boob room, or so it seemed?
Having armor tailored for women and having some extra space in the breastplate for, well, breasts is different than having egregiously sexualized armor.
Yes! People interpret a slight criticism and turn it into the polar opposite.
I think the third picture is perfect as is this one. Face, hair, body all reflect woman. No a dainty, princess with sprinkles and boob armor. But she is clearly a woman.
Many people don't seem to consider that this is a fantasy world and it doesn't really matter. In real life, there aren't many examples of warrior women wearing plate armor. I believe this is in relation to men being more made for battle, killing, and physical competition due to competing for the right to mate. One could argue that women fighting in Plate armor at all breaks immersion, but obviously it allows people to live out their fantasies in game. Likewise having women wearing chainmail bikini's or a musclebound man wearing nothing but a loincloth (Heman/Conan) may be something that some enjoy. One can argue what is tasteful or not, but in the end, it comes down to having some fun in a fantasy world. I'd rather not have to worry about discussions of equality between men, women, or whoever else in a game and whether it's tasteful or not. There is enough of that in the real world. From what I've seen of the ancient world many cultures didn't wear much in the way of clothing or armor. They often worshiped the human form.
Temmi said:So far we have seen female models that should be less feminine, and are.
That is simply not true. There is no "should" about women looking less feminine. I stated it once and I'll state it again. I am a woman working in a typically male field. In your world, that means I SHOULD look like a man at first glance.
Your statements indicate that any woman who takes on a traditionally masculine role SHOULD abdicate her femininity. That it's even NECESSARY.
I could not disagree more if you openly called me a man just because I work a traditionally male job. That's not fair, it's not right, and there is no SHOULD to it. I can be as feminine as I AM, whether I work a traditionally male job or not.
Temmi said:Later we saw the female human warrior. This is a warrior, folks. To gain the skill she has, she would be training vigorously on a daily basis. Breasts don't last when you're slim and trim. The extra weight on your hips known as "love handles" don't maintain when you're undergoing that kind of training.
Once more, the attitude is that a woman CANNOT possibly have breasts AND work out. I was a body builder in my younger years and I still work out regularly, and I am 45 years old.
Here's a little science for you. Wider hips don't come from "love handles" (by the way, love handles are on the BELLY, saddlebags are the 'hips' version), nor do wider hips come from saddlebags. Wider hips on women come from the fact that the pelvis of women is both broader and shaped differenly FOR GIVING BIRTH. Women who have had children, irrespective of whether it was natural birth or caesarean, will have even wider hips, even if she's the skiiniest woman alive. During pregnancy, women secrete a hormone that irretrievably widens our hips even further, else giving birth the first time would kill us all.
Do many body builders lose breast tissue? Yep. Do we all? NOPE!!
So again, wider hips and larger breasts is natural... some few women DO have narrow hips (and in medieval times, they invariablly died in childbirth). Some women DO lose their breasts if they work out a lot.
BUT, ask any woman who's been exercising her tail end off for years and yet mysteriously keeps GAINING weight... many of these women who are working out nonstop at being warriors will gain weight exactly because women lose and gain weight differently than men do. Women often GAIN weight under strenuous exercise when they don't eat enough to compensate. The more working out you do, if you eat even less and less, you can actually get fat from excessive working out combined with undereating.
Running about in the woods for days at a time, weeks, months at a time on low rations while getting excess exercise? That woman's body has a high likelihood of GAINING weight because her leptin resistance will be FIVE TIMES that of a man's during "starvation". That's just science.
So no, women who take on traditionally males roles don't HAVE TO look like miniature men. Some will... some will choose to maintain our femininity despite the non-traditional role we have assumed. Just because I'm a machinist doesn't mean I have to cut my hair off--I can tie it up so it doesn't fall into the machines. Just because I'm on my feet and sling steel all day long, picking up and carrying sometimes a hundred or more pounds, doesn't mean I magically have no breasts of a sudden.
Nobody has ever asked whether I'm a man or a woman, and nobody has ever outright thought I was a man. Nor do I have these broader hips and larger breasts BECAUSE I AM FAT. I'm NOT fat, and I admit that I resent the false implication that the only way a woman gets hips or breasts is by being fat and out of shape. That's simply not true and it never has been.
---------------------
EDIT TO ADD:
Oh, and yes, in a sexist culture, breast room in a breastplate WOULD be a luxury, because the default would be that all weaponry and armor would be made for men, as it is in our culture.
In an equitable culture where women are as commonly warriors as men are, making room for breasts and hips would just be another routine adjustment like torso length or codpieces... You'd get run out of your job in that culture if you were too lazy to make a necessary, standard adjustment like that. Spitting on half of your customer base because "men are traditionally warriors, not women"? In a culture where women are equally traditionally warriors, you'd be out of a job in a fortnight.
UnknownQuantity said:Many people don't seem to consider that this is a fantasy world and it doesn't really matter. In real life, there aren't many examples of warrior women wearing plate armor. I believe this is in relation to men being more made for battle, killing, and physical competition due to competing for the right to mate. One could argue that women fighting in Plate armor at all breaks immersion, but obviously it allows people to live out their fantasies in game. Likewise having women wearing chainmail bikini's or a musclebound man wearing nothing but a loincloth (Heman/Conan) may be something that some enjoy. One can argue what is tasteful or not, but in the end, it comes down to having some fun in a fantasy world. I'd rather not have to worry about discussions of equality between men, women, or whoever else in a game and whether it's tasteful or not. There is enough of that in the real world. From what I've seen of the ancient world many cultures didn't wear much in the way of clothing or armor. They often worshiped the human form.
To the contrary, I at least have definitely considered that this is a fantasy world wherein we suspend our disbelief. That being said, it's not a black and white discussion: "Suspend your disbelief or don't." It's a spectrum upon which we operate, and there are a lot of factors beyond just women's armor. The more we have to suspend our disbelief in total over the entire the game, the less overal believable the game becomes. Or at least, this is how it feels for me. Additionally, we don't want everything to be 100% realistic and immersive. That would truly be un-fun. Example: having to sleep for 8 hours every 24 hours or experience detriment to stats.
I do think that appearances can mean a lot more than other factors in the believability of the world. For me personally, since I will be playing a female (either human or elf) this discussion is very relevant. I want my character to be largely believable and realistic. I want her movements to be fluid and good-looking (not in the sense of attractive, but in the sense of natural, without limbs moving at odd angles). I want her to look female, but also appropriate, as in wearing appropriate armor in certain situations. I'm going to be spending a lot of time playing the character and therefore, seeing the character, so if the character is highly non-realistic, it's going to have a way bigger impact than the only-very-rarely-though-of fact that I didn't have to put my character to rest for 8 hours.
On the point of "fun", that's highly subjective, though I don't mean to diminish your interpretation of fun. Fun for me comes from really engaging in the world and roleplaying and just losing myself. That would be harder for me to do with many armor models that are so clearly out-of-character.
Amris said:Temmi said:So far we have seen female models that should be less feminine, and are.
That is simply not true. There is no "should" about women looking less feminine. I stated it once and I'll state it again. I am a woman working in a typically male field. In your world, that means I SHOULD look like a man at first glance. Sure, maybe when you're down to your elbows in work, wearing comfortable work clothes, covered in the grease and everything else you mentioned above, you might. It's not a crime to mistakenly interpret someone's gender. Do you think you look intensely feminine at work?
Your statements indicate that any woman who takes on a traditionally masculine role SHOULD abdicate her femininity. That it's even NECESSARY. Not only did what I say not indicate this, I did not imply it in any way, shape or form. I merely stated the most common occurance, though I perhaps could have done a better job of explaining that I was speaking towards the trend, and not the overall. I believed this was implied, as there are always exceptions to any rule.
I could not disagree more if you openly called me a man just because I work a traditionally male job. That's not fair, it's not right, and there is no SHOULD to it. I can be as feminine as I AM, whether I work a traditionally male job or not. Forgive me for saying it, but you seem to be taking this a lot more personally than it was ever intended.
Temmi said:Later we saw the female human warrior. This is a warrior, folks. To gain the skill she has, she would be training vigorously on a daily basis. Breasts don't last when you're slim and trim. The extra weight on your hips known as "love handles" don't maintain when you're undergoing that kind of training.Once more, the attitude is that a woman CANNOT possibly have breasts AND work out. I was a body builder in my younger years and I still work out regularly, and I am 45 years old. And? When I went down to 130 pounds from about 160, I lost two cup sizes. That's the norm. That's the standard. I still had breasts, but they got smaller. If I had been wearing plate they would have been even less noticable.
Here's a little science for you. Wider hips don't come from "love handles" (by the way, love handles are on the BELLY, saddlebags are the 'hips' version), nor do wider hips come from saddlebags. Wider hips on women come from the fact that the pelvis of women is both broader and shaped differenly FOR GIVING BIRTH. Women who have had children, irrespective of whether it was natural birth or caesarean, will have even wider hips, even if she's the skiiniest woman alive. During pregnancy, women secrete a hormone that irretrievably widens our hips even further, else giving birth the first time would kill us all. I won't comment here since you're being condescending and rather rude.
Do many body builders lose breast tissue? Yep. Do we all? NOPE!! Thank you for acknowledging that my post was valid and reasonable and accurate.
So again, wider hips and larger breasts is natural... some few women DO have narrow hips (and in medieval times, they invariablly died in childbirth). Some women DO lose their breasts if they work out a lot.
BUT, ask any woman who's been exercising her tail end off for years and yet mysteriously keeps GAINING weight... many of these women who are working out nonstop at being warriors will gain weight exactly because women lose and gain weight differently than men do. Women often GAIN weight under strenuous exercise when they don't eat enough to compensate. The more working out you do, if you eat even less and less, you can actually get fat from excessive working out combined with undereating.
Running about in the woods for days at a time, weeks, months at a time on low rations while getting excess exercise? That woman's body has a high likelihood of GAINING weight because her leptin resistance will be FIVE TIMES that of a man's during "starvation". That's just science.
So no, women who take on traditionally males roles don't HAVE TO look like miniature men. Some will... some will choose to maintain our femininity despite the non-traditional role we have assumed. Just because I'm a machinist doesn't mean I have to cut my hair off--I can tie it up so it doesn't fall into the machines. Just because I'm on my feet and sling steel all day long, picking up and carrying sometimes a hundred or more pounds, doesn't mean I magically have no breasts of a sudden. No one said that anyone working a traditionally male job would have to be masculine, or male, at all. Is it common? I'm not sure, to be honest, though first instinct tells me "yes".
Nobody has ever asked whether I'm a man or a woman, and nobody has ever outright thought I was a man. Nor do I have these broader hips and larger breasts BECAUSE I AM FAT. I'm NOT fat, and I admit that I resent the false implication that the only way a woman gets hips or breasts is by being fat and out of shape. That's simply not true and it never has been. No one called you fat. No one called anyone fat. Breasts are made of fat tissue. That's a fact. If you gain fat upon your body, your breasts (as will everything else) will enlarge. Inversely, if you lose weight (as in lose fat tissue), at least some part of will come from your breasts. There's science for you.
My responses in different color.
You largely ignored the actual points I was making and instead jumped to being offended and rather snide, to be honest. I will restate my point in a bit more succint manner though, so that perhaps you can see it more clearly.
The vast majority of women warriors in real life would have a less feminine frame.
The female human warrior we saw in the live stream had a minimally feminine frame, due to the standard and also likely due to the armor she was wearing.
This is normal, and I don't understand why you're offended.
If we were to see a less physically active female human (Enchanter/Wizard/Shaman?/Druid?), I would expect her to have a more feminine frame.
If we were to see a less physically active female human, I would expect her armor or clothing to conceal less of her frame.
Temmi said:My responses in different color.
You largely ignored the actual points I was making and instead jumped to being offended and rather snide, to be honest. I will restate my point in a bit more succint manner though, so that perhaps you can see it more clearly.
The vast majority of women warriors in real life would have a less feminine frame.
The female human warrior we saw in the live stream had a minimally feminine frame, due to the standard and also likely due to the armor she was wearing.
This is normal, and I don't understand why you're offended.
I'm offended because there are many, many women who are actual body builders who even keep their breasts without surgery--and more who have surgery because they enjoy having them. Bodybuilders work out all day with the express intent to become as bulkly physically as possible. Bodybuilders are as lean as you get. We STILL have breast tissue.
Become masculine in appearance is difficult for women unless they are already naturally very small breasted--and usually those women can achieve androgyny at best. It takes deliberate actions to become masculine looking, and most women who desire to do so, actively BIND THEIR BREASTS because making yourself look masculine when you're a woman takes work.
There are natural differences. You lost two cup sizes, did you lose your breasts? Did you stop needing a bra at all because your chest, at 120 pounds, was now flat like a man's?
Breasts are meant to be there. Nature protects them, even on bodybuilders, and women warriors aren't usually body builders--being that bulky makes you less agile.
The whole idea that, in a culture that embraces women warriors, they would be made to look just exactly like men, is intellectually dishonest.
Our culture embraces women's equality in typical clothing--and thus there is actually MORE variety and MORE available clothing for women. In a society that embraces women warriors, there would be MORE variety for women because our bodies vary far more. There's no reason besides the fact that our society has a DEFAULT that "men are warriors" for the reason why women warriors in OUR culture don't get feminine looking armor.
Study some culture and economics. Or just simply look around you. In cultures where women have disposable income (like this culture in Terminus will be), there are far, far more consumable goods. If women have buying power in a warrior culture, any smith that won't also cater to women's desires will go out of business in a flash. Like it or lump it, in an equal marketplace, women tend to have the greater impact upon cultural development of luxuries. Men as a general populace focus on expansion and architecture, women tend to focus on community-building and luxury.
Temmi said:UnknownQuantity said:Many people don't seem to consider that this is a fantasy world and it doesn't really matter. In real life, there aren't many examples of warrior women wearing plate armor. I believe this is in relation to men being more made for battle, killing, and physical competition due to competing for the right to mate. One could argue that women fighting in Plate armor at all breaks immersion, but obviously it allows people to live out their fantasies in game. Likewise having women wearing chainmail bikini's or a musclebound man wearing nothing but a loincloth (Heman/Conan) may be something that some enjoy. One can argue what is tasteful or not, but in the end, it comes down to having some fun in a fantasy world. I'd rather not have to worry about discussions of equality between men, women, or whoever else in a game and whether it's tasteful or not. There is enough of that in the real world. From what I've seen of the ancient world many cultures didn't wear much in the way of clothing or armor. They often worshiped the human form.
To the contrary, I at least have definitely considered that this is a fantasy world wherein we suspend our disbelief. That being said, it's not a black and white discussion: "Suspend your disbelief or don't." It's a spectrum upon which we operate, and there are a lot of factors beyond just women's armor. The more we have to suspend our disbelief in total over the entire the game, the less overal believable the game becomes. Or at least, this is how it feels for me. Additionally, we don't want everything to be 100% realistic and immersive. That would truly be un-fun. Example: having to sleep for 8 hours every 24 hours or experience detriment to stats.
I do think that appearances can mean a lot more than other factors in the believability of the world. For me personally, since I will be playing a female (either human or elf) this discussion is very relevant. I want my character to be largely believable and realistic. I want her movements to be fluid and good-looking (not in the sense of attractive, but in the sense of natural, without limbs moving at odd angles). I want her to look female, but also appropriate, as in wearing appropriate armor in certain situations. I'm going to be spending a lot of time playing the character and therefore, seeing the character, so if the character is highly non-realistic, it's going to have a way bigger impact than the only-very-rarely-though-of fact that I didn't have to put my character to rest for 8 hours.
On the point of "fun", that's highly subjective, though I don't mean to diminish your interpretation of fun. Fun for me comes from really engaging in the world and roleplaying and just losing myself. That would be harder for me to do with many armor models that are so clearly out-of-character.
I think what you are saying is more based on a personal want than one based on reality. As I said it's unrealistic for there to be a lot of women fighters wearing plate armor in the middle ages. This isn't the middle ages exactly, but it's loosely based on them in many ways. Going around killing monsters and casting magical spells is quite unrealistic. So is killing other human beings. What this really comes down to is that you enjoy having a female character with plate armor that doesn't look sexualized. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but others might enjoy playing Conan with a loin cloth and muscles popping out. Sometimes these characters are more pleasant to look at. A fun and engaging world is not the same for everyone. The issue is, I see a lot of people playing the moral and realistic cards when it comes to this type of topic, but there is no place for them here IMO. I could argue that this setting is unrealistic because in a land with limited rules things wouldn't be nearly so orderly and people would not be so nice to each other. This breaks immersion for me. None the less I accept what seems to be the current trend. What these things come down to is simple opinion.
Amris said:I'm offended because there are many, many women who are actual body builders who even keep their breasts without surgery--and more who have surgery because they enjoy having them. Bodybuilders work out all day with the express intent to become as bulkly physically as possible. Bodybuilders are as lean as you get. We STILL have breast tissue.
Become masculine in appearance is difficult for women unless they are already naturally very small breasted--and usually those women can achieve androgyny at best. It takes deliberate actions to become masculine looking, and most women who desire to do so, actively BIND THEIR BREASTS because making yourself look masculine when you're a woman takes work.
There are natural differences. You lost two cup sizes, did you lose your breasts? Did you stop needing a bra at all because your chest, at 120 pounds, was now flat like a man's?
Breasts are meant to be there. Nature protects them, even on bodybuilders, and women warriors aren't usually body builders--being that bulky makes you less agile.
The whole idea that, in a culture that embraces women warriors, they would be made to look just exactly like men, is intellectually dishonest.
Our culture embraces women's equality in typical clothing--and thus there is actually MORE variety and MORE available clothing for women. In a society that embraces women warriors, there would be MORE variety for women because our bodies vary far more. There's no reason besides the fact that our society has a DEFAULT that "men are warriors" for the reason why women warriors in OUR culture don't get feminine looking armor.
Study some culture and economics. Or just simply look around you. In cultures where women have disposable income (like this culture in Terminus will be), there are far, far more consumable goods. If women have buying power in a warrior culture, any smith that won't also cater to women's desires will go out of business in a flash. Like it or lump it, in an equal marketplace, women tend to have the greater impact upon cultural development of luxuries. Men as a general populace focus on expansion and architecture, women tend to focus on community-building and luxury.
Of course women still have breast tissue. It's created from mammary tissue as well as fat, so no matter what, they will still remain.
There was never any implication or assumption or statement that a female warrior would lose her breasts. Just that they would become smaller. That's not some absurd thing I made up off the top of my head. We seem to be in agreement here that this would be the normal thing.
The human female warrior in the stream has her armor tailored to her female frame, as we see in the breast molds that are visible even in the pre-alpha screenshots we've been given. Kilsin even specifically mentioned that this was a common thing in Terminus, despite it perhaps not being common in the real world. So plainly we see that the market is geared towards women as well as men.
No one ever said that the female warriors would look like men. I think you extrapolated what I said because you (admittedly) did not notice that the warrior was female. There are slight differences, and we can debate on how different they should be, but the fact that the model is definitely female should mean something to you. Clearly they are not trying to make female models that look the same as men in armor.
If we got a close-up of the female human warrior from the most recent livestream and a close up of a similarly-created male human warrior, I think we would definitely be able to see differences. Without that comparison though, the not obviously curvy figure might look a little masculine.
I truly believe you took my post and my response as way more personal than it was ever intended. Clearly I've offended you, though I was never even speaking directly to you.
UnknownQuantity said:I think what you are saying is more based on a personal want than one based on reality. As I said it's unrealistic for there to be a lot of women fighters wearing plate armor in the middle ages. This isn't the middle ages exactly, but it's loosely based on them in many ways. Going around killing monsters and casting magical spells is quite unrealistic. So is killing other human beings. What this really comes down to is that you enjoy having a female character with plate armor that doesn't look sexualized. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but others might enjoy playing Conan with a loin cloth and muscles popping out. Sometimes these characters are more pleasant to look at. A fun and engaging world is not the same for everyone. The issue is, I see a lot of people playing the moral and realistic cards when it comes to this type of topic, but there is no place for them here IMO. I could argue that this setting is unrealistic because in a land with limited rules things wouldn't be nearly so orderly and people would not be so nice to each other. This breaks immersion for me. None the less I accept what seems to be the current trend. What these things come down to is simple opinion.
The reality of it is Sexualized Armour or “boob armour” is not based in reality at all, there made have been few women in combat wearing plate during the middle ages, and maybe they made adjustments under the surface to accommodate the wearer’s “breast” for comfort, but the surface would have been smoothed out to deflects the strikes, to cause the least amount of kinetic force and damage to the wearer.
Now this is a fantasy game so I can absolutely suspend my disbelief on that part of realism, but the reality of it is boob Armour isnt based in it.
Amris said:Temmi said:My responses in different color.
You largely ignored the actual points I was making and instead jumped to being offended and rather snide, to be honest. I will restate my point in a bit more succint manner though, so that perhaps you can see it more clearly.
The vast majority of women warriors in real life would have a less feminine frame.
The female human warrior we saw in the live stream had a minimally feminine frame, due to the standard and also likely due to the armor she was wearing.
This is normal, and I don't understand why you're offended.
I'm offended because there are many, many women who are actual body builders who even keep their breasts without surgery--and more who have surgery because they enjoy having them. Bodybuilders work out all day with the express intent to become as bulkly physically as possible. Bodybuilders are as lean as you get. We STILL have breast tissue.
Become masculine in appearance is difficult for women unless they are already naturally very small breasted--and usually those women can achieve androgyny at best. It takes deliberate actions to become masculine looking, and most women who desire to do so, actively BIND THEIR BREASTS because making yourself look masculine when you're a woman takes work.
There are natural differences. You lost two cup sizes, did you lose your breasts? Did you stop needing a bra at all because your chest, at 120 pounds, was now flat like a man's?
Breasts are meant to be there. Nature protects them, even on bodybuilders, and women warriors aren't usually body builders--being that bulky makes you less agile.
The whole idea that, in a culture that embraces women warriors, they would be made to look just exactly like men, is intellectually dishonest.
Our culture embraces women's equality in typical clothing--and thus there is actually MORE variety and MORE available clothing for women. In a society that embraces women warriors, there would be MORE variety for women because our bodies vary far more. There's no reason besides the fact that our society has a DEFAULT that "men are warriors" for the reason why women warriors in OUR culture don't get feminine looking armor.
Study some culture and economics. Or just simply look around you. In cultures where women have disposable income (like this culture in Terminus will be), there are far, far more consumable goods. If women have buying power in a warrior culture, any smith that won't also cater to women's desires will go out of business in a flash. Like it or lump it, in an equal marketplace, women tend to have the greater impact upon the cultural development of luxuries. Men as a general populace focus on expansion and architecture, women tend to focus on community-building and luxury.
I would argue that a society with women in charge has little need for war and is more based on intelligence than brute strength. Any society that is based on might is right and physical prowess will generally end up being ruled by men as they are a pre-dispositioned for it chemically. What you are suggesting is basically an idea that isn't real and that's OK. This is a fantasy game and things that aren't real can happen in it. My point is that a society ruled by women would have little need of armor as there wouldn't be much fighting. We can already see that with today's world. Wherever women are in charge there is a lot more empathy and a lot less fighting. Where men are in charge there is a great deal more fighting. The point is there would not be a need to have plate armor crafted if women are in charge. It's more likely they would be using some kind of advanced technology to keep people in check. There would be no need for something so primitive as plate armor in any type of situation where women are in charge.
HemlockReaper said:UnknownQuantity said:I think what you are saying is more based on a personal want than one based on reality. As I said it's unrealistic for there to be a lot of women fighters wearing plate armor in the middle ages. This isn't the middle ages exactly, but it's loosely based on them in many ways. Going around killing monsters and casting magical spells is quite unrealistic. So is killing other human beings. What this really comes down to is that you enjoy having a female character with plate armor that doesn't look sexualized. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but others might enjoy playing Conan with a loin cloth and muscles popping out. Sometimes these characters are more pleasant to look at. A fun and engaging world is not the same for everyone. The issue is, I see a lot of people playing the moral and realistic cards when it comes to this type of topic, but there is no place for them here IMO. I could argue that this setting is unrealistic because in a land with limited rules things wouldn't be nearly so orderly and people would not be so nice to each other. This breaks immersion for me. None the less I accept what seems to be the current trend. What these things come down to is simple opinion.
The reality of it is Sexualized Armour or “boob armor” is not based in reality at all, there made have been few women in combat wearing plate during the middle ages, and maybe they made adjustments under the surface to accommodate the wearer’s “breast” for comfort, but the surface would have been smoothed out to deflects the strikes, to cause the least amount of kinetic force and damage to the wearer.
Now this is a fantasy game so I can absolutely suspend my disbelief on that part of realism, but the reality of it is boob Armour is based in it.
It is true, but there is no magic or monsters in reality either. For some reason you can suspend your disbelief in one, but not in the other. This is all about having fun. It is not about being realistic.
UnknownQuantity said:I think what you are saying is more based on a personal want than one based on reality. As I said it's unrealistic for there to be a lot of women fighters wearing plate armor in the middle ages. This isn't the middle ages exactly, but it's loosely based on them in many ways. Going around killing monsters and casting magical spells is quite unrealistic. So is killing other human beings. What this really comes down to is that you enjoy having a female character with plate armor that doesn't look sexualized. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but others might enjoy playing Conan with a loin cloth and muscles popping out. Sometimes these characters are more pleasant to look at. A fun and engaging world is not the same for everyone. The issue is, I see a lot of people playing the moral and realistic cards when it comes to this type of topic, but there is no place for them here IMO. I could argue that this setting is unrealistic because in a land with limited rules things wouldn't be nearly so orderly and people would not be so nice to each other. This breaks immersion for me. None the less I accept what seems to be the current trend. What these things come down to is simple opinion.
Of course it boils down to simple opinion. Many things do, and I thought that that was a foregone conclusion, so I apologize if my posts came off as me dictating something as fact. I do use some facts to support my opinion, to explain why I think that way, but at the end of the day, and opinion is just an opinion. Even if we agree on the facts we may still come to different end point opinions, and that's fine.
For me, having a more realistically-dressed female warrior carries more weight than the fact that the entire world is unbelievable! So while I can pretty easily look past the unrealistic setting, seeing women in overtly sexual heavy armor is just annoying to me. That's just my opinion. That's just my reaction to those two things compared to each other.
It's okay if your opinion is different. These forums are for us all voicing our opinions to let the developers see what we're all thinking so they can make adjustments accordingly. If a ton of people end up sharing your opinion and tankinis (tongue-in-cheek example!) are put into the game, then I'll have to accept that that was what many wanted. If all the armor ends up being rather realistic and modest, then you'll have to accept that as well. :)
UnknownQuantity said:I would argue that a society with women in charge has little need for war and is more based on intelligence than brute strength. Any society that is based on might is right and physical prowess will generally end up being ruled by men as they are a pre-dispositioned for it chemically. What you are suggesting is basically an idea that isn't real and that's OK. This is a fantasy game and things that aren't real can happen in it. My point is that a society ruled by women would have little need of armor as there wouldn't be much fighting. We can already see that with today's world. Wherever women are in charge there is a lot more empathy and a lot less fighting. Where men are in charge there is a great deal more fighting. The point is there would not be a need to have plate armor crafted if women are in charge. It's more likely they would be using some kind of advanced technology to keep people in check. There would be no need for something so primitive as plate armor in any type of situation where women are in charge.
I didn't say there's less war. I said there are more luxuries. I said that, in the marketplace, luxuries become more common in a society where women are equal (I said nothing about woman-DOMINATED societies).
My argument isn't whatever you seem to think it was... my argument was ONLY that in an equal culture, WOMEN COULD LOOK FEMININE IN ARMOR because in that culture, THEY WOULD BE EQUAL.
People keep arguing that "on Earth" women's armor looks JUST LIKE men's armor, so it should in the game, too... but the problem is that in OUR CULTURE, women aren't traditionally warriors, so no one caters to their desires.
Nowhere did I say the game should be a woman DOMINATED culture. I said all things being EQUAL, women will demand that their armor be the way THEY want it to be, not simply made for women as an afterthought to changing men's garments into allowing women to wear them. Which is what happens in OUR culture--plate armor is made for men by DEFAULT. In a culture where women are warriors as much as men are, you better believe that they wouldn't tolerate being given men's cast-offs!
EDIT: We don't actually know what a woman-dominated culture would look like, we can only surmise. They have all been killed off long before modern history.
Amris said:UnknownQuantity said:I would argue that a society with women in charge has little need for war and is more based on intelligence than brute strength. Any society that is based on might is right and physical prowess will generally end up being ruled by men as they are a pre-dispositioned for it chemically. What you are suggesting is basically an idea that isn't real and that's OK. This is a fantasy game and things that aren't real can happen in it. My point is that a society ruled by women would have little need of armor as there wouldn't be much fighting. We can already see that with today's world. Wherever women are in charge there is a lot more empathy and a lot less fighting. Where men are in charge there is a great deal more fighting. The point is there would not be a need to have plate armor crafted if women are in charge. It's more likely they would be using some kind of advanced technology to keep people in check. There would be no need for something so primitive as plate armor in any type of situation where women are in charge.
I didn't say there's less war. I said there are more luxuries. I said that, in the marketplace, luxuries become more common in a society where women are equal (I said nothing about woman-DOMINATED societies).
My argument isn't whatever you seem to think it was... my argument was ONLY that in an equal culture, WOMEN COULD LOOK FEMININE IN ARMOR because in that culture, THEY WOULD BE EQUAL.
People keep arguing that "on Earth" women's armor looks JUST LIKE men's armor, so it should in the game, too... but the problem is that in OUR CULTURE, women aren't traditionally warriors, so no one caters to their desires.
Nowhere did I say the game should be a woman DOMINATED culture. I said all things being EQUAL, women will demand that their armor be the way THEY want it to be, not simply made for women as an afterthought to changing men's garments into allowing women to wear them. Which is what happens in OUR culture--plate armor is made for men by DEFAULT. In a culture where women are warriors as much as men are, you better believe that they wouldn't tolerate being given men's cast-offs!
I agree, but I was just pointing out there such a society is unlikely to exist in reality. Of course, it could in fantasy and that is why we have women with plate armor and it's OK whether it's a bikini or more traditional plate armor. Whatever makes people happy I guess.
Amris said:I didn't say there's less war. I said there are more luxuries. I said that, in the marketplace, luxuries become more common in a society where women are equal (I said nothing about woman-DOMINATED societies).
My argument isn't whatever you seem to think it was... my argument was ONLY that in an equal culture, WOMEN COULD LOOK FEMININE IN ARMOR because in that culture, THEY WOULD BE EQUAL.
People keep arguing that "on Earth" women's armor looks JUST LIKE men's armor, so it should in the game, too... but the problem is that in OUR CULTURE, women aren't traditionally warriors, so no one caters to their desires.
Nowhere did I say the game should be a woman DOMINATED culture. I said all things being EQUAL, women will demand that their armor be the way THEY want it to be, not simply made for women as an afterthought to changing men's garments into allowing women to wear them. Which is what happens in OUR culture--plate armor is made for men by DEFAULT. In a culture where women are warriors as much as men are, you better believe that they wouldn't tolerate being given men's cast-offs!
I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that even in an equal society, armor would still have its function to protect the wearer. Hypothetically, this would be more important than style, or preference, or even comfort, considering that protection could mean the difference between life or death.
Then we must discuss based on hypotheticals the lines drawn between protection, the style of "sexy" or "pretty" armor, the comfort of breast molds, or whatever other characteristics a piece of armor may have.
This is of course assuming that we are indeed working in a relatively realistic world, such as Pantheon is attempting to be.
I certainly don't condone the extreme idea of "tankinis" or "boob windows" in armor. They're just too unrealistic for me, and also too overdone in recent MMO history for me to want to see it in Pantheon.
I know if I were a warrior in Terminus, I certainly wouldn't want male cast-offs, but I wouldn't want my armor overburdened with gaudy flourishes, or stylish to an extent where I lost protection.
Temmi said:UnknownQuantity said:I think what you are saying is more based on a personal want than one based on reality. As I said it's unrealistic for there to be a lot of women fighters wearing plate armor in the middle ages. This isn't the middle ages exactly, but it's loosely based on them in many ways. Going around killing monsters and casting magical spells is quite unrealistic. So is killing other human beings. What this really comes down to is that you enjoy having a female character with plate armor that doesn't look sexualized. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but others might enjoy playing Conan with a loin cloth and muscles popping out. Sometimes these characters are more pleasant to look at. A fun and engaging world is not the same for everyone. The issue is, I see a lot of people playing the moral and realistic cards when it comes to this type of topic, but there is no place for them here IMO. I could argue that this setting is unrealistic because in a land with limited rules things wouldn't be nearly so orderly and people would not be so nice to each other. This breaks immersion for me. None the less I accept what seems to be the current trend. What these things come down to is simple opinion.
Of course it boils down to simple opinion. Many things do, and I thought that that was a foregone conclusion, so I apologize if my posts came off as me dictating something as fact. I do use some facts to support my opinion, to explain why I think that way, but at the end of the day, and opinion is just an opinion. Even if we agree on the facts we may still come to different end point opinions, and that's fine.
For me, having a more realistically-dressed female warrior carries more weight than the fact that the entire world is unbelievable! So while I can pretty easily look past the unrealistic setting, seeing women in overtly sexual heavy armor is just annoying to me. That's just my opinion. That's just my reaction to those two things compared to each other.
It's okay if your opinion is different. These forums are for us all voicing our opinions to let the developers see what we're all thinking so they can make adjustments accordingly. If a ton of people end up sharing your opinion and tankinis (tongue-in-cheek example!) are put into the game, then I'll have to accept that that was what many wanted. If all the armor ends up being rather realistic and modest, then you'll have to accept that as well. :)
Very true. To each their own. I just see a lot of people posting that seem to be trying to push certain agendas of equality and discretion in almost everything in life. I just want to counter to those people that this is a game and some people take enjoyment from things that might not always be morally sound and not accepted in real life. These things can provide a fun experience if they don't hurt anyone in real life.
Temmi said:Wonder Woman and Xena Warrior Princess gave us such unrealistic expectations for warrior women, and that's just not what Pantheon is going for. They're going for a more immersive, realistic feel. It's been stated not only in the FAQ, but by a dev at every turn.
I absolutely stand by your right to give your opinion, especially when it's different than mine. But please don't speak for me. When I see Wonder Woman and Xena, I don't go, "Boo-hoo, I'll never look like that" or "Hey, that's not realistic!" It's all make-believe. And you're mistaking the definition of "immersive" to mean "realistic." I can play Minecraft for hours on end and my character looks like a rectangle, but I still feel like it's me building a house.
I am a big (well, short) ol' tomboy. I've been into sports since I was 3, and I've been a sportswriter, and I probably know more about sports than probably any guy on this forum. I love playing war games and shooters. In my group of gaming friends, I'm always the tank/warrior (which my husband thinks is awesome). But in Guild Wars 2, my Norn Guardian (who I made the tallest and largest you could) is wearing a metal bikini, because I thought it was epic that she could withstand the freezing temperatures in her homeland and melee against boss mobs while still being feminine. Because fantasy.
Lghtngfan said:Temmi said:Wonder Woman and Xena Warrior Princess gave us such unrealistic expectations for warrior women, and that's just not what Pantheon is going for. They're going for a more immersive, realistic feel. It's been stated not only in the FAQ, but by a dev at every turn.
I absolutely stand by your right to give your opinion, especially when it's different than mine. But please don't speak for me. When I see Wonder Woman and Xena, I don't go, "Boo-hoo, I'll never look like that" or "Hey, that's not realistic!" It's all make-believe. And you're mistaking the definition of "immersive" to mean "realistic." I can play Minecraft for hours on end and my character looks like a rectangle, but I still feel like it's me building a house.
I am a big (well, short) ol' tomboy. I've been into sports since I was 3, and I've been a sportswriter, and I probably know more about sports than probably any guy on this forum. I love playing war games and shooters. In my group of gaming friends, I'm always the tank/warrior (which my husband thinks is awesome). But in Guild Wars 2, my Norn Guardian (who I made the tallest and largest you could) is wearing a metal bikini, because I thought it was epic that she could withstand the freezing temperatures in her homeland and melee against boss mobs while still being feminine. Because fantasy.
I'm sorry you got caught up in the phrasing so much. My post was never intended to force my opinions or interpretation on anyone else.
Just as you respect my opinion and my right to voice it, I respect your opinion and your right to voice it. Though I don't see how your Norn Guardian wearing a tankini is epic, I respect the fact that you do think it's epic, and we can agree to disagree.
Final Warning - Please refrain from opinion based arguments and equality arguments or the thread will be closed.
Stop and think before you post "Is this constructive feedback that Kilsin can read, collect and gather?" or "Is this petty arguing over semantics because some prefer tougher looking plate wearing females and others prefer feminine looking ones?"
We have both, we have only shown off a very small sample that we pre-selected for our stream, we do not have all models fully implemented, not all of them are completely finished, you will be able to make changes to your characters appearance at character select and we selected a strong human female Warrior for our stream, next time you may see something else entirely but our races are not limited to those few choices, so please stop the arguing.
Just removing it, since I cross-posted with kilsin. I think it's useful but he doesn't and he's the boss. :)