While I do agree it would be nice to potentially see Pantheon on a console at some point in the future, it's not really high on my priority list. I want Pantheon to have a great launch on the PC and be successful. If the console discussion comes up in the future, I am all for that, but I don't want any piece of the vision for Pantheon to be compromised in any way to accommodate another platform.
Xbox one and ps4 run on x86 hardware, porting a PC game is nowhere near as hard as it used to be. As for controls they don't seem to be an issue anymore, Square Enix very creatively figured out ways to control FFXIV with a controller and there's an addon I've seen for WoW that lets you play with an Xbox controller. Hell, I even managed to make a semi comfortable gamepad setup for killing weak mobs in vanilla wow with a gamepad only using remapping software.
As long as a console port of the game wouldn't affect the way the game design and limit what PC players can do, I can't see any harm in supporting it. Seems like a lot of arguments against it in this thread is just playground "muhh my system is better". I prefer PC and I wouldn't play on console but for me to, out of some misguided sense of superiority, be against the option for those who want it seems petty at best.
Spluffen said:Xbox one and ps4 run on x86 hardware, porting a PC game is nowhere near as hard as it used to be. As for controls they don't seem to be an issue anymore, Square Enix very creatively figured out ways to control FFXIV with a controller and there's an addon I've seen for WoW that lets you play with an Xbox controller. Hell, I even managed to make a semi comfortable gamepad setup for killing weak mobs in vanilla wow with a gamepad only using remapping software.
As long as a console port of the game wouldn't affect the way the game design and limit what PC players can do, I can't see any harm in supporting it. Seems like a lot of arguments against it in this thread is just playground "muhh my system is better". I prefer PC and I wouldn't play on console but for me to, out of some misguided sense of superiority, be against the option for those who want it seems petty at best.
I don't think my PC system is better, but I HAVE seen poorly done ports..if they can do it without making all controls for console...I'll be for it. And again, it depends on finances, some things will happen after release, such as certain desired classes. Same for anything else that is extra/added on. Wishes are good, but finances sometimes stand in the way. The Devs have mentioned Mac and Linex, not sure when...but eventually.
Just found this in the FAQ: The great thing about Unity is that it can target different systems. We will absolutely have a PC client. We hope to have a Mac client as well if it makes sense as we near release. Any other clients would come after launch. It depends on the timing and where Unity is at, and the time that it takes us to make sure the client works on each platform. PC first, and then Mac; then we’ll see where it goes from there. - end quote
Cana
Nephele said:We should keep in mind that all modern consoles are essentially mid grade gaming PCs under the hood, they are just highly optimized.
My FFXIV guild has a fair number of people who play on their PS4's. You wouldn't know it unless they told you though. They use Bluetooth or usb keyboards to type in game, and run teamspeak/discord through their phones or tablets when we use voice chat.
The only real challenge for developers to support consoles these days is setting up the UI for controller support. That, and negotiating the frankly assinine way the major console services handle things like subscription billing, although that has been slowly improving with the rise of MMO squad based shooters like Destiny, etc.
Bottom line, it can be done, and done well :)
I played FFXIV up to level 20 when I realized combat consisted of using my same 3 abilities over and over. It felt infantile and contrived for mmorpg combat, especially at level 20 (EQ or Vanguard had 30-50 abilities by that level). That was because it was designed with console controller in mind. They put potential earnings over having a full featured mmo combat system with complexity.
Not to mention the fact that mmorpgs were intended for cooperative play and communication, for which the keyboard is still ideal. Designing a proper mmorpg for controller is like designing a plane without wings.
Dullahan said:I played FFXIV up to level 20 when I realized combat consisted of using my same 3 abilities over and over. It felt infantile and contrived for mmorpg combat, especially at level 20 (EQ or Vanguard had 30-50 abilities by that level). That was because it was designed with console controller in mind. They put potential earnings over having a full featured mmo combat system with complexity.
That was because it was designed with console controller in mind
No. With bar modifiers, which they use, you can easily have 8x4 hotkeys that are very easy to press and potentially many more. The reason the game is infantile is the same usual reason and the same reason we need Pantheon in the first place, it has nothing to do with any control scheme.
I don't know about the combat commands but FFXIV *was* designed to have significantly inferior graphics to those it could have had so that it could work on consoles as well as computers.
When grouping there were often long waits for those of us on computers as those on consoles slowly zoned in. Console players also couldn't do certain things or couldn't do them very well.
With many exceptions, console players tended to be noticeably younger than computer players. FFXIV seemed to have far more people in the 13-16 age range or even younger than a typical computer MMO.
All of this may be good for the developer - more revenue. Not so good for the more ...mature ...player.
dorotea said:I don't know about the combat commands but FFXIV *was* designed to have significantly inferior graphics to those it could have had so that it could work on consoles as well as computers.
When grouping there were often long waits for those of us on computers as those on consoles slowly zoned in. Console players also couldn't do certain things or couldn't do them very well.
With many exceptions, console players tended to be noticeably younger than computer players. FFXIV seemed to have far more people in the 13-16 age range or even younger than a typical computer MMO.
All of this may be good for the developer - more revenue. Not so good for the more ...mature ...player.
When FFXIV was released, Square-Enix wanted to release it on PS3 (which was the top end sony console at the time). So, they intentionally held back on some graphical aspects to allow this.
However, they did it in such a way where people on PC could still turn those things on. So PC players had an amazing game to look at, and PS3 players were in "crayon-mode", so to speak. They were also the source of your long load times and other complaints. PS4 players get almost the same experience as PC players.
When SE dropped PS3 support for the game last year, they did it specifically so that they could push the graphic quality even further - the PS3 was holding them back, and since most of their console base had moved to better hardware, they dropped it. That decision is no different from a PC game making a decision to launch with DX11 support and then a few years later start requiring DX12 in order to get additional goodness.
I'll also challenge your assertion that FFXIV's console playerbase is young teens. That's simply not true. The vast majority of players in the game are age 21 and older. Sure, there are exceptions - a good friend of mine set up a character for his 11-year old daughter, so she can play (closely supervised), but I can count on one hand the number of people I've met in the game in the last three years who were under 18.
I think we all need to let go of any preconceptions we have about consoles or the people who use consoles or what they use them for. My console runs my living room - I use it to stream Netflix and Amazon Prime, to watch cable TV, to play music, to rent movies, and to play games. The PC, by comparison, sits on a desk up in the loft and does my taxes (and also plays games). There are games I buy on console *instead* of buying on the PC because I want to run them on the bigger screen downstairs. The simple fact is, consoles are just as powerful, graphically speaking, as a mid-grade desktop PC (heck, the GPU in an XBOX ONE X would give my relatively new gaming PC a run for its money), and there are many households where the console is *more* powerful than the desktop PC the person has. Because the console experience is more tightly controlled, it's cheaper than a PC - that XBOX ONE X, for example, has a retail price of $500. And all that's needed to make an MMO "work" on a console is three things:
1) UI support for controller input, which is not as limiting as you might think.
2) Support by the console for an accessory keyboard (because soft keyboards suck, on any platform)
3) Support by the console's gaming service (PSN, XBL, etc) for the billing/subscription method the MMO wants to use.
So, does a console release of Pantheon make sense, post-launch? It would certainly open the game up to additional subscribers. I'd say that the decision would heavily depend on #3 above, as well as on a demographic analysis.
Making changes with the primary goal of additional subscribers leads down a dark path that many have walked before.
If someone can use their 'console' to play a PC game, then great, let them play Pantheon on their console-acting-as-a-PC.
I have zero interest in a game that intentionally avoids a PC-only UI for the sake of any other platform (mobile, tablet, phone, console, whatever). Even things like limiting keybinds because you want to force players to use their left hand for everything except the camera, and the camera is only bound to the mouse. Screw that noise. I'm not playing a first person shooter.
Give me an auto-follow over-the-shoulder camera and let me use both hands on the keyboard, with access to all my skills, spells, abilities, whatever.
If I want to use my left hand for skills and my right hand for movement, let me. If I want to use my left hand for movement, and my right hand on the keypad for skills/spells, let me. If I want to play MOUSELESS, let me. If I want to play primarily with the mouse ONLY, let me.
I despise the trend to force players into a physical interface style that is in opposition to the flexibility offered by a full-sized keyboard, full-sized mouse, full-sized monitor.
vjek said: Give me an auto-follow over-the-shoulder camera and let me use both hands on the keyboard, with access to all my skills, spells, abilities, whatever.If I want to use my left hand for skills and my right hand for movement, let me. If I want to use my left hand for movement, and my right hand on the keypad for skills/spells, let me. If I want to play MOUSELESS, let me. If I want to play primarily with the mouse ONLY, let me.
And if I want to play with a gamepad... let me?
vjek said:I despise the trend to force players into a physical interface style that is in opposition to the flexibility offered by a full-sized keyboard, full-sized mouse, full-sized monitor.
Obviously the console UI would be different from the PC one, snap-cursor instead of mouse cursor etc. That option could also be avaliable for those of us who use the PC when couch gaming. If you look at the Pantheon interface, there's nothing in it that wouldn't work well or at least somewhat ok (chat) with a gamepad. Also I'm not sure what you mean by full-sized monitor, any PC and Console these days can plug into HDMI, the monitor is literally up to the end user. My PC is hooked up to both my TV and desk monitor atm, so is my Nintendo Switch.
Making an MMO interface option that makes it playable with a controller does not have to impact the experience for someone using keyboard and mouse in any way (because they will be different interfaces). The only downside would be if you group with someone who is a tad slower due to them using a controller but that same issue is already present with people who keyturn and/or click their hotbars.
Dullahan said:I played FFXIV up to level 20 when I realized combat consisted of using my same 3 abilities over and over. It felt infantile and contrived for mmorpg combat, especially at level 20 (EQ or Vanguard had 30-50 abilities by that level). That was because it was designed with console controller in mind. They put potential earnings over having a full featured mmo combat system with complexity.
Not to derail this thread but this is an ignorant assumption by you and a completely assinine assesment of an MMO's combat. I have pledged and am looking forward to Pantheon, but I also play FFXIV. My character has multiple level 70 jobs and the combat on say, Samauri and Ninja are not mashing the same three abilities.
Do not bash a game you know nothing about to make your point.
Mod Edit: Removed personal attack
Interfaces are not difficult to develop.
VR could easily create a standard PC interface and another interface for consoles. Hell, you can even get keyboards for consoles.
The interface and is not an issue.
Also, the new and next gen consoles are more powerful than a lot of PCs. Plus, they are standardized and much easy to plan for then PCs with hundreds of different drivers.
Spluffen said:Xbox one and ps4 run on x86 hardware, porting a PC game is nowhere near as hard as it used to be. As for controls they don't seem to be an issue anymore, Square Enix very creatively figured out ways to control FFXIV with a controller and there's an addon I've seen for WoW that lets you play with an Xbox controller. Hell, I even managed to make a semi comfortable gamepad setup for killing weak mobs in vanilla wow with a gamepad only using remapping software.
As long as a console port of the game wouldn't affect the way the game design and limit what PC players can do, I can't see any harm in supporting it. Seems like a lot of arguments against it in this thread is just playground "muhh my system is better". I prefer PC and I wouldn't play on console but for me to, out of some misguided sense of superiority, be against the option for those who want it seems petty at best.
Xbox games are developed ON A PC. lol. They have to go out of their way to make them not PC games and then "port" them back go PC. It's garbage.
Hateborn said:Dullahan said:I played FFXIV up to level 20 when I realized combat consisted of using my same 3 abilities over and over. It felt infantile and contrived for mmorpg combat, especially at level 20 (EQ or Vanguard had 30-50 abilities by that level). That was because it was designed with console controller in mind. They put potential earnings over having a full featured mmo combat system with complexity.
Not to derail this thread but this is an ignorant assumption by you and a completely assinine assesment of an MMO's combat. I have pledged and am looking forward to Pantheon, but I also play FFXIV. My character has multiple level 70 jobs and the combat on say, Samauri and Ninja are not mashing the same three abilities.
Do not bash a game you know nothing about to make your point. You sould like an idiot.
I know enough about it to state I had 3 abilities at level 20. That's all I needed to know to make the point I made. No need to get upset because you disagree.
First, the general statement: if it makes business sense to bring Pantheon to another platform we would likely do so.
Second, Unity does make it *easier* to do this, although it's still not simple.... I know the build interface makes it seem like you just click and choose a platform and compile and all is good, but it's not. There's actually a LOT more to it. For example, the Mac doesn't use Direct X, so you can't just choose to make a Mac client and simply run it on a Mac.
Pantheon's focus right now is PC and, likely, it will remain the focus both pre and post launch. If we can create Mac or Linux clients without putting a lot of effort into it, we'll probably give it a shot. But also remember it's not just about making the client -- you also have to maintain then multiple clients. So again, it goes back to making business sense and how many additional users we think we'd get.
Then you get into consoles.... as many have already mentioned, there are controller and interface issues that have to be over come. Also we are thinking about Pantheon in terms of years, even decades -- we are in this for the long haul for sure. Consoles, on the other hand, get replaced. Would it make sense to spend lots of time and money on, say, the PS/4 when at somepoint the PS/5 comes out?
Bottom line: while in a very general sense we'd love to support multiple platforms and allow people with all sorts of different platforms/systems to enjoy Pantheon, and while we are not biased against or for a certain platform over another, the real issues are much deeper. The reality, especially for an MMO being designed to last years, is that the PC makes the most sense... PCs will continue to advance in terms of hardware and software and Pantheon will continue to evolve and expand as a game. Pantheon is also a deep and challenging game and suited best for the traditional mouse/keyboard setup.
Personally, I'd love to play Pantheon on some uber powerful iPad of the future, but then I wish I had super powers and was 20 years younger too :)
I agree that many people on consoles are adults - I stand by my opinion that a much larger percentage of them are children. Buying consoles for kids and getting them games to play on the consoles is fairly common. Buying them computers (or giving them access to a family computer for many hours on end to play games) and paying for them to subscribe to games with a monthly fee - certainly not unheard of but *less* common. My experience on FFXIV supports that opinion but I never did a poll and could be wrong.
I also stand by my opinion that considering console players a significant part of your market is likely to dumb the game down in various ways - even where you can have separate UIs, commands or graphics for consoles VR will have a strong incentive to use the console version for the computer - far easier to have one system than multiple ones.
For a game with WoW-killer aspirations, going the FFXIV approach may make perfect sense despite the risks. For a game whose goal is to be somewhat niche with a focus on old school play and grouping and socialization, I don't think that going computers only will sacrifice a large share of the potential market whereas going the FFXIV route may produce enough compromises and lowering of the community maturity level to be quite harmful.
Hateborn said:Dullahan said:I played FFXIV up to level 20 when I realized combat consisted of using my same 3 abilities over and over. It felt infantile and contrived for mmorpg combat, especially at level 20 (EQ or Vanguard had 30-50 abilities by that level). That was because it was designed with console controller in mind. They put potential earnings over having a full featured mmo combat system with complexity.
Not to derail this thread but this is an ignorant assumption by you and a completely assinine assesment of an MMO's combat. I have pledged and am looking forward to Pantheon, but I also play FFXIV. My character has multiple level 70 jobs and the combat on say, Samauri and Ninja are not mashing the same three abilities.
Do not bash a game you know nothing about to make your point. You sould like an idiot.
I would say that we should be addressing the ideas and opinons, instead of the person. :)
vjek said:Making changes with the primary goal of additional subscribers leads down a dark path that many have walked before.
... more stuff cut out for brevity ...
I despise the trend to force players into a physical interface style that is in opposition to the flexibility offered by a full-sized keyboard, full-sized mouse, full-sized monitor.
It's like your inside my head. Get out!
I think if there was capital to be invested in to this idea it would be already. I'm sure someone more informed than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt 38Studios start down this road? It didnt work well for them. I played the console game they published. It was a decent enough game for what it was. However, the "huge" market of console gamers wasnt interested enough in the 38Studios product to produce revenue to sustain the company. What makes anyone think it will be different this time? Different approach? VR not releasing a game in advance?
I think there will be a time and place for that marriage to be a success, but I dont think it's here and now. Maybe my fear of failure is pursuading my opinion, I dunno.