Was just thinking about raiding and I can't remember one raid where I looted something other than gear or items to make gear or the occasional spell/scroll/ability. Why? Is there nothing else we can raid for to make it fun? Do we have to get items or is it possible to raid JUST to raid. Or is there anything else we can obtain from defeating a raid boss?
To a degree raiding is grinding depending on the circumstance. And we know how we all feel about 'grinding', especially for the veteran raider who has a full set of T6 raid gear or what have you and/or raiding just because they have to (remember flagging new guild members in EQ raids?? Yeah, those were fun...) So what other rewards can there be to completing raids? What other reasons are there for us to raid?
edit. Let me rephrase the SUBJECT line of this matter lol. I didn't mean to question the 'point' to raiding, just the rewards of raiding.
When something stops being fun, stop doing it. Raid because you want to, not because you have to.
I had a blast in most of my Vanguard raids, countless APW runs didn't feel like grinding because I was always doing it with my guild and we had a riot of a time on Teamspeak. No two raids were ever the same even if we killed the same wing.
Your post reads a bit like MMORPGs might not be your thing?
When I play these games I like to make my character as strong as possible. I like to be able to play my character to the best of my abilities. That usually is displayed by tackling raid content and the hardest group content. The rewards for doing that has in the past been the reward of gear that makes your character stronger. WoW tried to shy away from loot rewards for difficulty and started to use achievements to separate peoples progression and I thought that was the stupidest thing possible. Achievements do nothing for my character. If you want to tack on an achievement after killing a dragon great but also give me that big flaming sword to run around with so people take notice haha!
You'd first have to invent some new concept that players would want, then you can add it as a reward for raids.
Zone access is one example (not new, been done in EQ, kill RZTW and other bosses to get flags for EPs).
So the question is not really about raids... it's about new types of rewards. Once you come up with something, you can as easily attach them to quests or single group mini-bosses as to raids.
So... gear. Spells. Access to places. You can add VG-style diplomacy and then you can have new cards. Crafting tools? What else?
You mean aside from the the fun and challenge of doing it? :)
Along with weapons, armor and spells, some other options could be: Titles, unique "fun" spells usable by any class/race, lore drops (might not be everyone's thing but many find it interesting), unique vanity items, rare quests (how bout an unusual map or letter that leads to something else), unique crafting items and tools, access to new areas, possibility to learn a new skill. What if witnessing the defeat of the the raid boss were to permanently change your character in some way, maybe for the better, maybe not? or maybe getting defeated by the boss does that?
I dunno, that's just a few things that came to mind. And, I know a lot of them are still items but it's not all the usual stuff. There are definitely other options out there, just depends of the imagination of the devs.
Malsirian said:
What if witnessing the defeat of the the raid boss were to permanently change your character in some way, maybe for the better, maybe not? or maybe getting defeated by the boss does that?
I think it's called PTSD.
The point to raiding is the same as the point to leveling, grinding exp, tradeskilling, etc. Take a small, single achievement, and build from that foundation until you achieve something larger.
What's the point of killing things beyond the rats/snakes in the n00b starting area? What's the point of dungeon crawling vs the easiest outdoor exp camp? What the point of making plate mail when hardened leather gets the job done decently? What's the point of working out if you already feel like you're in shape? What's the point of anything that isn't strictly for survival and safety?
Raiding is one of the higher expressions of MMO self-actualization, same as maxed tradeskills, max ally factions, etc. Self-actualization is it's own point. I don't raid much anymore given the time constraints in my life, and knowing how much time a proper raid member should dedicate in terms of being fair to their raid group, but I remember every successful raid objective I ever took part in like they happened 10 seconds ago. Serious proud achievements are like that. I don't recall in all that time getting much in the way of items/gear from it, but that was never the point for me. Yes, mudflation renders all those achievements moot or silly at some point, but at the moment of completion there are few things in the life of a gamer that can stack up to finally beating that crazy raid encounter, whatever this week's raid encounter happens to be.
Every activity has it's be-all, end-all achievements, and raiding is that for MMOs. That's the point.
Caesium said:
When something stops being fun, stop doing it. Raid because you want to, not because you have to.
I had a blast in most of my Vanguard raids, countless APW runs didn't feel like grinding because I was always doing it with my guild and we had a riot of a time on Teamspeak. No two raids were ever the same even if we killed the same wing.
Your post reads a bit like MMORPGs might not be your thing?
I love MMOs and I LOVE raiding. I've raided so much that for weeks/months I'd barely get any upgrades in gear because I already had everything I needed. I'm not the type to raid to get what I want and then bail out on the guild. I believe in helping the other guild members get their gear and/or flags/keys to progress further in the end game. But ultimately and unfortunately, this does border around that 'grinding' element. Anyone who raids long enough will go through this
But what I'm wondering about is the question of whether or not there are any other types of rewards players can receive for raiding and defeating bosses. Because right now IMO practically every MMO rewards with gear. And I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if there is more...
Somebody mentioned titles. Receiving a title for defeating raid bosses is a great option to receiving gear. And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Just other types of rewards we can receive. I know some MMOs raids dole out mounts for defeating certain bosses. This is borderline gear possibly, possibly not, but definitely different than your swords and armor and a great reward as well.
What about game art? Maybe the artist's sketches could be rewarded for defeating a raid boss. Possibly the art for that boss or the art for his lair or what have you. All I'm wondering is the other possibilities of rewards we can receive for raiding. Or even music and/or soundtrack clips/tracks?
Aethor said:
So the question is not really about raids... it's about new types of rewards. Once you come up with something, you can as easily attach them to quests or single group mini-bosses as to raids.
So... gear. Spells. Access to places. You can add VG-style diplomacy and then you can have new cards. Crafting tools? What else?
You're absolutely right! It really could just be more about different types of rewards in general and not just raids in particular. But raids are a different type of monster than your single group and solo content. So even though it is about new types of rewards in general, I don't see nothing wrong with raids getting rewards that single group content can't get.
Flags, Flags, more Flags please...
I want raid progression in the form of flagging where loot is just a means to an end.
I want the loot of the previous boss to enable the killing of the next boss.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:
Flags, Flags, more Flags please...
I want raid progression in the form of flagging where loot is just a means to an end.
I want the loot of the previous boss to enable the killing of the next boss.
Kiz~
This is actually something I don't want. I don't know what flagging is so I am not responding to that but I absolutely hate tiered raids and raid only endgame (especially when raids fall into the exact same formula every single time like what most modern mmo raids do, I don't know if everquest had more variety). So I do not in any way support requiring a linear path of loot to clear the next tier. That inherently funnels everyone into the same direction. I want endgame here to focus on horizontal itemization so that most of the content is viable all the time.
I like a variation of tier based and flagging raids as well as raids that have no requirements other than being able to actually complete the raid.
Tier based progression if done based on an increasing difficulty level is a token of accomplishment. I also like when there are raids that in a sense show the effort everyone contributes to a raid. Raids that are not going to be typically farmed but more or less in place to prevent people access to a zone until they are able to earn that right.
An example of this that comes to mind is Simon Says in EQ. This was a very difficult raid. It was not something that was farmed, it was pretty much just a means to get into Anguish. During this raid you could really see what players were fully engaged in the raid and you could easily see those who were not. There were room emotes, individual emotes, and the frequency increased over time and with each death. (Basically, failing to follow the emote did high damage, typically barely shy of the entire health bar of a player geared for this raid. The real challenge was the emotes could contradict. You might receive an emote to stand still, but at the same time the room emote might be to get to the center... if you are not in the center you had a few options. Let a healer know you were going to take damage, follow one emote. Do the worst thing and try to stand still but not wait for the task to be complete and then try to run to the center... causing yourself to take 2 DD and die. Or attempt the emote that occurred first, then try to get the second complete (often times not likely- but stand still really just meant when the timer was up you had to be in the same place the emote started...)
The only issue with tiered raiding and flagging is the use of instances. At some point the raid content will become too populated, and in order to keep a good percentage of people occupied in raiding, instancing needs to come in place. I personally am not against instancing in these situations. However, when it comes to non-tiered raiding I am against instancing. These raids should be fought over. All in all you will need to improve your character and their gear (as well as your raid/guilds characters) in order to further progress.
Because my favorite part of any RPG is character progression I am also a fan of adding alternate means of empowering your character. Another way this can be done is an alternate xp bar for raiding. (Xp would need to be scaled with difficulty as well and based on accomplishments). But similar to AA's levels gained could be used to purchase various upgrades for your character. This could vary greatly, from increasing Hp, mana, crit chance, reducing costs, etc.
I enjoy raiding because if the challenge of getting many people to be in the right place, right time, and doing the right thing.
Knowing a strategy is easy, following through with 30 people is a *****.
Its a serious pain when it does not work, but great when it's done right, finally, usually on the last pull of the night.
The loot is important, because it establishes a goal. Competing for the gear is part of the fun. Progression and bragging rights are important. It's a social game and all societies establish tiers of success.
Raiding has been, traditionally, the absolute top of the PvE pyramid. Turns out, doing the top tier content should provide best rewards, even sometimes unlocking new content for the world to play.
So when it comes to raiding, I'd love to see rewards of that stature.
Perhaps when a raid is completed, I'd love to see rewards.
Basically, story related time should move forward, players should feel rewarded for doing the raid; loot wise and prestige wise, and players should get rewards that feel good to obtain.
Raids can be for equipable items, but in Pantheon I suspect raids will also be for special abilities, spells, and crafting supplies.
It actually bothers me greatly that modern games don't structure their endgame to include more crafting materials, especially in raiding. It is true that having recipes drop from new raids can be a bit of a weird logical conundrum, but I don't see why you couldn't have crafters be allow to experiment with crafting materials that drop to find new recipes. Many games have done stuff like that in the past.
I dunno, it would just be interesting to see a variety like that in raid drops, fostering greater interdependence.
Trivializing difficulty shrinks the game world in size as well as perceived repetition. Make things hard to accomplish, and even the same fight will seem very different and complex in new ways.
Don't underestimate the impact a social group-focused game has on this. It makes every day you login a different day, not just another self-focused, head-down on your dailies and some LFD/LFR crawls then done.
The best way to combat boredom and repetition is to need unpredictable interactions with other players; the more the game let's human interplay drive the game, the more it will naturally seem like an ever-changing game each day you log in to play. And trading/crafting influence is along those lines, which adds to the desire and need to interact.
It is something that early EQ and DAoC captured to a tee, and that most other games didn't come close to later. Which is why to this day I can tell you a lot more game memories I have from 15 years ago than the last couple.
Hello everyone. Raid could also take on the form of story trigger. Not all raids have to rewards in items. Have a raid that rewards in opening up a questline, story progression. Say, defeated mob X and it triggered an event that released slaves X and so and so. You and your guild/friends/group doing one of MANY raids, this raid does not reward items or such. It opens up one of many different story arch(s) or upon defeating the raid boss, you discorved a hidden passage that leads into realm or land. But only those who are on the story arch or questline are able to see it or find it. Just saying raid doesnt have to be all about end game items. Maybe raiding does not have to be about defeating a monster and getting items, but a completion of events during the raid..witin a certain time. Free so many slaves during raid before time is up or boss wakes up meh...find item(s) before time is up, build tower to reach boss so rogue can put said item in boss's mouth and sleep for antoher 10 winter..what ever your imgination wants. Just saying, not all raids have to reward in items.
Say one of the new zones or realms, dungeon or hmm town, can only be explored from raid you completed. Reward is getting to explore it. Meh I dont know.
I dislike it when the point to raiding is time spent. Yes you should be rewarded for spending more time, no you shouldn't have to spend 40+ hours a week sucking up to your guild master to even sort of compete.
Thus, i have disliked raiding in pretty much every game where we have these "superior rewards" and "gear requirements" that everyone in this thread seems to love. But, I will hopefully be able to enjoy the regular group content at least.
Raiding is simply the natural endpoint of a game like Pantheon. It's just a matter of scale. Raiding is a culmination of all of the elements of the game at the largest scale the game allows.
Group size 6? Raid size 72.
Group mob hits for 50? Raid mob hits for 500.
Group requires minimal strategy? Raid requires lots of strategy.
There will always be a "top of the totem pole" in terms of the ratio of content challenge and the rewards that content provides. It just so happens that raiding was the simplest way to add that next step by simply taking the already existing elements of the game and multiplying them.