I liked raiding, yes for the loots, or just to see the loots. Mostly it was the leader that made the raid. It's not easy leading raids, I tried for epic pieces with small sized raids, like 3 and a half groups. It's hard. but being in a well organized raid is fun. Bring in a " What do we do now!" First time is better! However, I would like to see a twist on raiding that may involve the perception system?. What if, in a group and you defeat the boss - or need 2 groups- and each group got a separate perception message. So if another group came in, they would get a third and entirely different perception message - that would lead you somewhere. One group may get a hint to go to halfling town to a certain bar and get drunk (but which bar!,I'm already wrecked whaddya mean it's not THISH one ' hic'). And then another perception message would be received. And another group gets a message about a underwater volcano and something about wrongly enslaved beings. So, on a hint site or player forum, someone would post what THEY got , but someone else would have a different story. Would 6 perception "loots" be enough to randomize it enough?. Like, 7 degrees of separation. Kill boss, go to tavern, get lead to dessert spiders, leading to....Etc etc 6 random times. So it's never the same. The group could continue as a group, or if the group splits, the character would still have their secret hint, so if they joined another group that was heading to dessert spider place to exp, you would have your hint to look for or while there get your perception hint, that no one else would see. Or if you went with your original group, you would All get the same hint in the same area. I see this dynamic encouraging the group to get back together or keep in touch, I.e. if we kill boss, then split up, I friend you all, I go to dessert place and get the hint, I then seek all of you out to say "ZOMG did you go to dessert spider ace yet! I got the hint! No? Wanna see if the others are around and go? Exp is pretty good and the named spider sometimes drops a nice bag." I think that would be cool.
The end of which, would be interaction with an NPC perhaps, or perception message leading you to, a nice piece of loot or armor or spell or crafting item- That way you would also reap the rewards even if with another group- Or you could get the raid item- hours, days or even weeks outside the "raid" depending on when you get there as solo or if in a different group ( Oh wow, look what I got! yeah from that thing I did with them a while back- but definitely an upgrade!) or if your group is determined, as a group, to see it through. *Edited as forgot to mention this piece of my idea*
I went back and re-read my original post and I didn't mean in any form for it to sound like I didn't enjoy raiding. All I wanted to question was can we raid and receive different results. Rather than every boss we kill dies and gives us items or keys/flags can we fight raid encounters and have different results.
For example, someone mentioned spells and abilities. First, I am all for raid bosses dropping a much more varied set of loot than the standard swords and armor. So spells/abilities, crafting mats, mounts, titles, etc I am all for. But what I'm talking about is a little more than simply killing the boss and it dropping more than the standard swords and armor. Going back to the spells and abilities. Instead of having to kill the boss and then hoping it drops your Courage VI spell what if you had to perform a certain feat during the fight to receive the spell. To 'learn' the spell? This is all I'm asking. Not just getting different types of rewards but receiving these rewards in a different way other than simply killing the boss and getting loot.
Someone mentioned raid bosses pushing storylines. This is another way raids can rewards us not only in different ways but perhaps in a different means than killing the boss and seeing what he has.
I'd also love to see something like AAs tied into raid kills. AAs wouldn't have to solely rely on raid kills but it could be one means to getting them. But instead of requiring you to dedicate some of your exp to AAs why not require raid boss kills and depending on which boss you kill you get so many points (raid boss A is worth 1 point and raid boss B is worth 3 points) and each AA requires a set amount of points. Like HP +25 requires 1 point per tier but Extra Lay on Hands requires 3 points per tier (or maybe 3/6/9 per tier) Just a thought.
Like I said, I love raiding. I would just love to see if it can evolve in any way.
NoobieDoo said:I went back and re-read my original post and I didn't mean in any form for it to sound like I didn't enjoy raiding. All I wanted to question was can we raid and receive different results. Rather than every boss we kill dies and gives us items or keys/flags can we fight raid encounters and have different results.
For example, someone mentioned spells and abilities. First, I am all for raid bosses dropping a much more varied set of loot than the standard swords and armor. So spells/abilities, crafting mats, mounts, titles, etc I am all for. But what I'm talking about is a little more than simply killing the boss and it dropping more than the standard swords and armor. Going back to the spells and abilities. Instead of having to kill the boss and then hoping it drops your Courage VI spell what if you had to perform a certain feat during the fight to receive the spell. To 'learn' the spell? This is all I'm asking. Not just getting different types of rewards but receiving these rewards in a different way other than simply killing the boss and getting loot.
Someone mentioned raid bosses pushing storylines. This is another way raids can rewards us not only in different ways but perhaps in a different means than killing the boss and seeing what he has.
I'd also love to see something like AAs tied into raid kills. AAs wouldn't have to solely rely on raid kills but it could be one means to getting them. But instead of requiring you to dedicate some of your exp to AAs why not require raid boss kills and depending on which boss you kill you get so many points (raid boss A is worth 1 point and raid boss B is worth 3 points) and each AA requires a set amount of points. Like HP +25 requires 1 point per tier but Extra Lay on Hands requires 3 points per tier (or maybe 3/6/9 per tier) Just a thought.
Like I said, I love raiding. I would just love to see if it can evolve in any way.
That's all fine and would probably work fine, but not in lieu of raid mobs dropping loot. I can't see myself being incentivized to kill raid mobs only for AA points, but supplemental, sure.
The effort invested needs to return comparable results. The most powerful loot in the game is the logical thing. Unless it's at least that good of a reward I doubt most people would raid.
Although I love raiding and did it quite seriously back in the day what I ABSOLUTELY do NOT want is a gear treadmill. I don't want raids (max level raids and not the potential lower level ones that was hinted at) to be a progression ladder where you go to one to get gear to go to the next one or that when a new raid or expansion comes you have to get new gear entierly. I want the all the max level raids to have gear of equal/similar value, maybe have them be themed to different stats or effects but nothing that is just flat upgrades from one stat stick to another.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
I love to raid, i love to work within the guild helping solve raids and work together.
On raids i would rather we do it in a different fashion.
1. Rare items, weapons, and objects.
2. Special quest pieces, to craft top end gear (optional)
3. Rare pieces of gear (Top end gear, with special abilities)
On grouping, or solo
1. Standard items, with a very low chance of rare item drops (from raids) or somewhat close to raided items.
2. Questing, a ton. Crafting items, and standard gear drops, with or without some abilities.
3. Crafting gear with either item drops, special cash. You can make 1-5 levels of gear for grouping or raiding.
It becomes your choice on what you want to do, and if you want to beat so and so and get the rare loot then you need to raid.
This would allow us to focus on grouping content much more, crafting, questing, etc... The best one comes to mind is the coldian shawl, and the coldain ring quests. Long, and hard to do, to obtain the top end pieces. The same with epics is awesome. We can mismatch gear with either raiding or grouping or crafting, questing and no issue should arise again about the grouping content disappearing.
My suggestion about the grouping problems, and the constant catchup issues we had in EQ. Its fun for hardcore people, but it is very difficult for some to catchup just to raid, or better their character.
Rare = Raided Top end stats
Semi Rare = Raided, and grouped content... mini bosses etc.
Standard progression, crafted, and quested = Solo, group content with decent stats to raid or group with.
No 1-3 group teir, no 1-3 raid teir it is like 1-5 group crafted, or quested, or purchased... and anything else is rare loot with special stats. I could or could not replace the group gear if raided.
Just my 2 cents, otherwise i am ok with either or EQ style again.
Completely agree with Amsai and Beefcake. The best endgame is one where raiding is not encouraged to be the only method of progress. People who have played only modern games would do well to learn from the mistakes of modern gaming. It's not just that non-raiders are locked out of getting even some of the best equipment, raiders themselves develop mindsets that anything that is not raiding is pointless.
De-emphasize the end-all nature of raids and you do both so-called "casual" and "hardcore" groups justice. People still need to raid to get some otherwise unobtainable pieces, but raiders also have to go out an interact in a much larger variety of situations to become truly elite. I would absolutely hate for Pantheon to have not learned from modern games and make raiding the only route to relevance, it just leads to treadmills and creative drain.
Man, just typing that made me mentally compare FFXIV to FFXI and I can't believe anyone who has played both would think the FFXIV endgame scheme is remotely good by comparison. Holistic really is superior.
Liav said:Even if your elite gameplay is a combination of grouping and raiding, it still establishes raiding as a requirement to be considered elite. Trying to find ways around it just sounds like you're trying to make top tier equipment more accessible.
Well in my case I mostly just want varied high end content. Its not about circumventing Raiding. Or trying to make top teir equipment easier to gain. Though I do admit I favor smaller group content, but thats just because 99% of the time large group content just doesnt feel as epic to me. This is the way my brain automatically translates it:
Small Group Content = You defied the odds and even with small numbers managed to beat dragons. (Studs, Heroes, Mighty Men)
Large Group Content = So you had to bring an army just to beat a few dragons? (Soldiers, Minions, Cog in the Wheel)
Now I have participated in a lot of Large Group Content and so I know its not as simple as the above. And have had a lot of fun and challenge. But I cant help that it always seems weaker to me when I think about how it feels. And I also know that there are plenty that love Raiding. Im just asking for more even distribution for high end content so that I dont log in every day asking what are we raiding today. Gets a bit monotonous I think. Also as Jimmayus said it would keep Raiders from getting into a rut, and encourage them to seek out other activities. It also forms a kinda of sense of entitlement and laziness that all you ever have to do is raid and you get the best gear. Lastly for high end competition it could help redistibute the player base and keep them more spread out as yet another method to help stop 1 or 2 guilds from forcing everyone else out. Afterall they wont always be there if there is other non raiding content that is equally important to progression and that competitive edge.
What Amsai said, and also: the problem with making raiding the end-all of endgame is that it forces the devs to devote more time to it. Raids typically take place in very small sections of a much larger world, typically to the detriment of that world. I just hate the centralizing effects, and more importantly what typically happens in "raiding only" environments is that it snowballs vertical progression and the homogenization of loot. There's no need for a bunch of interesting and maybe situational setups if the only fights that matter are a minute subsection of the game. You make open dungeons more relevant, you make some story encouters more relevant, you make quests that take you to far-flung places more relevant by opening the gear incentives up.
Also, I'm just sick of the WoW mentality where the rest of the world is secondary. It's the antithesis of what it means to be in an online world, and the further away they get from that the better.
Liav said:NoobieDoo said:I went back and re-read my original post and I didn't mean in any form for it to sound like I didn't enjoy raiding. All I wanted to question was can we raid and receive different results. Rather than every boss we kill dies and gives us items or keys/flags can we fight raid encounters and have different results.
For example, someone mentioned spells and abilities. First, I am all for raid bosses dropping a much more varied set of loot than the standard swords and armor. So spells/abilities, crafting mats, mounts, titles, etc I am all for. But what I'm talking about is a little more than simply killing the boss and it dropping more than the standard swords and armor. Going back to the spells and abilities. Instead of having to kill the boss and then hoping it drops your Courage VI spell what if you had to perform a certain feat during the fight to receive the spell. To 'learn' the spell? This is all I'm asking. Not just getting different types of rewards but receiving these rewards in a different way other than simply killing the boss and getting loot.
Someone mentioned raid bosses pushing storylines. This is another way raids can rewards us not only in different ways but perhaps in a different means than killing the boss and seeing what he has.
I'd also love to see something like AAs tied into raid kills. AAs wouldn't have to solely rely on raid kills but it could be one means to getting them. But instead of requiring you to dedicate some of your exp to AAs why not require raid boss kills and depending on which boss you kill you get so many points (raid boss A is worth 1 point and raid boss B is worth 3 points) and each AA requires a set amount of points. Like HP +25 requires 1 point per tier but Extra Lay on Hands requires 3 points per tier (or maybe 3/6/9 per tier) Just a thought.
Like I said, I love raiding. I would just love to see if it can evolve in any way.
That's all fine and would probably work fine, but not in lieu of raid mobs dropping loot. I can't see myself being incentivized to kill raid mobs only for AA points, but supplemental, sure.
The effort invested needs to return comparable results. The most powerful loot in the game is the logical thing. Unless it's at least that good of a reward I doubt most people would raid.
Without a doubt. I would never suggest for raids to have zero loot. And I would never suggest for raiding to be the only way to get AAs either. But I think having a section of AAs dedicated to raiding would be a good fit.
Jimmayus said:What Amsai said, and also: the problem with making raiding the end-all of endgame is that it forces the devs to devote more time to it. Raids typically take place in very small sections of a much larger world, typically to the detriment of that world. I just hate the centralizing effects, and more importantly what typically happens in "raiding only" environments is that it snowballs vertical progression and the homogenization of loot. There's no need for a bunch of interesting and maybe situational setups if the only fights that matter are a minute subsection of the game. You make open dungeons more relevant, you make some story encouters more relevant, you make quests that take you to far-flung places more relevant by opening the gear incentives up.
Also, I'm just sick of the WoW mentality where the rest of the world is secondary. It's the antithesis of what it means to be in an online world, and the further away they get from that the better.
Well see that is where The "Orginal" Everquest was started. The rest of the world was not secondary, but primary and open world boss mobs had chances to spawn over a cycle, then became important of the time.
Nobody will take that away from those players now or then. This is why some of us called it the Orginal Everquest, then years later it changed, changed so much to appeal to mostly end game. I was ok with that since i loved all parts small or large with EQ.
But what it did, was make everything below raiding no real sense. Crafting became useless in the end, quests became boring, and progression became nothing but a huge time sync.
The only thing i got from finally 2014 was these new achivements. I was ok with that, but it made it not EQ anymore.
Jimmayus said: Dessert spiders sound delicious, I hope they're chocolate.
at least I was consistent- heh- and yes....dessert spiders *clears throat and maintains poise*...chocolate dessert spiders... and it does fit in with my example ,sort of, halflings and their overconsumption and epicurianism, drinking and yes , chocolate covered spiders chocolate covered dessert spiders. Not to be confused with...well you know. *makes undecipherable gesture in an attempt to hurry closure of subject without admiting to error and changes conversation*
This also got me thinking, as Raid loot is randomly selected from a table, why not Raid loot be randomly created- so it is never the same exact thing twice?
For instance: Rock Boss will drop a caster, melee, hybrid, etc etc piece, but for each piece the RNG will ascribe 1 of 10 effects, 1 of 20 abilities, +7 to random 5 of 8 stats- OR - +3-5 accross all stats, and +7-10 AC ( if that is in game) and random +8-10 accross 9 of 12 resists.
but always guarantee a crafting item, or randomly two (?!)
I think this would take away the "farm status" aspect of raiding as the need to get copies of the piece would be removed, rather it would just have different attributes and some players may wield it better than others based on core attributes of players- which would encourage interplayer trading. " your axe is different than my axe, both our axes are the same, however your axe would suit me better because it procs this insted of that, or has a boost in this resist where I am weak but you have innate bonus, or I need the boost in resist but I will have to sacrifice the proc on the axe I have to get the boost in resist.
Or no resists and a + to environment...making the choice like: I wont survive long in the enviromment, but I will have the ability to kill things faster in that environment over I wont survive long in he environment, but the resists will help overal in a majority of areas outside the environment.
Categorically against your suggestion for randomized loot Manouk, respectfully. One of the hallmarks of older model mmos is the notoriety of certain loot tables. If prompted I could list out precisely the gear a summoner in FFXI would need at 75 to be considered perfectly geared, and generally where all of it comes from. I not only could not do that for any job I played in basically any wow-clone, except that we know for sure the "best" is off a paltry handfull of bosses that were released within the last year. I prefer a game where you tell someone you're a Shaman and fighting [boss in a Reignfall dungeon] and they say "ohhhh good luck getting the wolfskin pants".
If you're talking about a static loot drop that has variable stats, I guess that's sort of ok. It's an arpg concept used heavily in Path of Exile. I'd hesitate to make it wholly random like in that game, however, because you can obtain loot much faster in those sorts of games. If such a system were to be implemented, I would prefer to see a scenario where, for example:
That way you could vary the base loot's unimproved stats, so a lucky roll would mean you need less of X materials to max it, but the end result of the effort would be predictable and understandably impressive.
I, like others, enjoy creative raid design.
I would like to see more raids where you have the option to accomplish the task in a numer of ways. If you take the easy way out you get lesser rewards.
Maybe you kill all the waves of adds instead of moving past them. Maybe you don't do something that negates elemental damage etc. Completing the challenge in a certain way affects the rewards. This allows guilds to gain some smaller rewards while they are working towards beating the moe challengging parts of the content. This also extends the life of a raid. Maybe it is beatable the "easy" way this expansion but once the next expansion comes out and people are a higher level and better equiped they can go back and beat it the more difficult way and get better rewards.
Another example of a raid design that I thought was creative and interesting...(bear with me it has been awhile, some of my facts might be off). There was a worm in Luclin in a cave that started out small and untargetable. It grew little by little in size and power each day. Eventually it became targetable but didn't drop anything after a few days. It took 1 week for it to grow from its smallest form to full size. I believe if you killed it on the 6th day it dropped loot...but lesser quality loot. On the last day it grew to full size/power and dropped the best possible loot. It was an interesting mechanic. I enjoyed being able to see it grow and know exactly how long we had until it was full grown.
philo said:I, like others, enjoy creative raid design.
I would like to see more raids where you have the option to accomplish the task in a numer of ways. If you take the easy way out you get lesser rewards.
Maybe you kill all the waves of adds instead of moving past them. Maybe you don't do something that negates elemental damage etc. Completing the challenge in a certain way affects the rewards. This allows guilds to gain some smaller rewards while they are working towards beating the moe challengging parts of the content. This also extends the life of a raid. Maybe it is beatable the "easy" way this exapansion but once the next expansion comes out and people are a higher level and better equiped they can go back and beat it the more difficult way and get better rewards.
Another example of a raid design that I thought was creative and interesting...(bear with me it has been awhile, some of my facts might be off). There was a worm in Luclin in a cave that started out small and untargetable. It grew little by little in size and power each day. Eventually it became targetable but didn't drop anything after a few days. It took 1 week for it to grow from its smallest form to full size. I believe if you killed it on the 6th day it dropped loot...but lesser quality loot. On the last day it grew to full size/power and dropped the best possible loot. It was an interesting mechanic. I enjoyed being able to see it grow and know exactly how long we had until it was full grown.
Raids have had hardmore counterparts for a very, very long time.
In your second paragraph, the raid you're describing was The Burrower Beast event. You kill several waves of small mobs that increase in power and eventually spawn the "end" boss mob. This is a ring event, another mechanic (like hardmode) that has already existed in MMOs for many years.
Liav said:philo said:I, like others, enjoy creative raid design.
I would like to see more raids where you have the option to accomplish the task in a numer of ways. If you take the easy way out you get lesser rewards.
Maybe you kill all the waves of adds instead of moving past them. Maybe you don't do something that negates elemental damage etc. Completing the challenge in a certain way affects the rewards. This allows guilds to gain some smaller rewards while they are working towards beating the moe challengging parts of the content. This also extends the life of a raid. Maybe it is beatable the "easy" way this exapansion but once the next expansion comes out and people are a higher level and better equiped they can go back and beat it the more difficult way and get better rewards.
Another example of a raid design that I thought was creative and interesting...(bear with me it has been awhile, some of my facts might be off). There was a worm in Luclin in a cave that started out small and untargetable. It grew little by little in size and power each day. Eventually it became targetable but didn't drop anything after a few days. It took 1 week for it to grow from its smallest form to full size. I believe if you killed it on the 6th day it dropped loot...but lesser quality loot. On the last day it grew to full size/power and dropped the best possible loot. It was an interesting mechanic. I enjoyed being able to see it grow and know exactly how long we had until it was full grown.
Raids have had hardmore counterparts for a very, very long time.
In your second paragraph, the raid you're describing was The Burrower Beast event. You kill several waves of small mobs that increase in power and eventually spawn the "end" boss mob. This is a ring event, another mechanic (like hardmode) that has already existed in MMOs for many years.
Yes but most raids have a limited number of difficulty levels that you choose prior to the fight. This way has multiple reward scenarios based on what you actually do. It is not set before hand...and it is alo not limited to 3 or 4 or a few different difficulties. The possibilities are endless. You could get reward bonuses by completeing one part but not recieve the benefit for another part. Of course this is something most of us have experienced before to some extent. I would like to see this type of loot distribution expanded on even more.
It sounds like what you are descibing is the ring of fire where you kill wave after wave in increasing difficulty until the boss spawned? But maybe you are right? It has been a dozen years or so. The thing I'm talking about was a single mob fight. But it wasn't the fight that was interesting. It was the growth rate and multiple types of loot availability depending on when it was killed. That is the only thing that matters as far as this discussion goes. It was just an example of a creative design.
I raided somewhat frequently in EQ1 early on...2, maybe 3 times a week. But I always preferred challenging group content far more than raiding. I just hope that the VR team can design the game so that both types of players--raiders and non-raiders--can have a fun time and not feel like they are being left out.
philo said:Yes but most raids have a limited number of difficulty levels that you choose prior to the fight. This way has multiple reward scenarios based on what you actually do. It is not set before hand...and it is alo not limited to 3 or 4 or a few different difficulties. The possibilities are endless. You could get reward bonuses by completeing one part but not recieve the benefit for another part. Of course this is something most of us have experienced before to some extent. I would like to see this type of loot distribution expanded on even more.
It sounds like what you are descibing is the ring of fire where you kill wave after wave in increasing difficulty until the boss spawned? But maybe you are right? It has been a dozen years or so. The thing I'm talking about was a single mob fight. But it wasn't the fight that was interesting. It was the growth rate and multiple types of loot availability depending on when it was killed. That is the only thing that matters as far as this discussion goes. It was just an example of a creative design.
One other thing I don't like is farming the same encounter on different difficulty levels to access different loot tables. Too much micromanaging.
The fight I'm referring to is the only "worm in a cave" fight that exists in Luclin. Phinigel is currently on the Luclin expansion so I have some experience there. No one really does that encounter anymore, but it is indeed several waves of small worms that eventually leads up to a big worm.