I've heard several post that zone progression is a good thing. I hated it. As a person that really doesn't have the time to spend multiple hours at the computer at a time this kind of progression system makes progressing a real nightmare.
Dont get me wrong, I really don't begrudge raiders, or am I railing against raiding. At all. I fully support that notion for all those that want to engage in it. But when you have PoP-style expansions where anyone who didnt raid was issolated to 4 or so of the 15 zones (or however many it was), that's a problem. If you want to have a 2 or maybe 3-tier progression where one raid gets to you another area that is strictly a raid, fine. But if you make it so that every single player MUST raid in order to see more than 15% of an expansion, that's ridiculous.
Raiding is great. There should always be bigger and better things to discover and conquer for those who have the time. I want a world full of mysteries and where the average player couldn't hope to see and do everything.
That said, Visionary Realms say group play is the goal, first and foremost. I don't think we have to worry about complete expansions of nothing but raid content. Particularly in a game where the non-raid progression will be harder and more time consuming. The average player isn't likely going to have time to raid like the way they do in MMOs these days.
Dullahan said:Raiding is great. There should always be bigger and better things to discover and conquer for those who have the time. I want a world full of mysteries and where the average player couldn't hope to see and do everything.
That said, Visionary Realms say group play is the goal, first and foremost. I don't think we have to worry about complete expansions of nothing but raid content. Particularly in a game where the non-raid progression will be harder and more time consuming. The average player isn't likely going to have time to raid like the way they do in MMOs these days.
Yeah, I dont get the impression that my concern is really a possibility with Pantheon. They seem very concieous of any mechanic that hinders people from linking up and working together. Progression locks are kind of the antithesis of that, inherently preventing a person from joining others who are at a different stage of progression than themselves.
I don't really have a problem with some areas requiring some sort of key or attunement. Most things shouldn't be that way, for sure, but Veeshan's Peak and Sleeper's Tomb were both keyed dungeons that took considerable work to get a guild in.
Like in all other aspects of a game, there will be things that aren't accessible without putting in some work first. Giant mysterious locked doors are a great incentive to keep people playing.
The only way to make that possible is to add something to it that has some meaning. There are a few possiblities.
I'm sure there are quite a few more I could list but those are the first that come to mind. The main reason people raid is for ego/bragging rights and the gear. Hell why do you think the sleeper was and is such a big thing from EQ? It was a mob that was never designed to be killed so it became the biggest target ever made. Just to be able to say you were a part of it. Dropped nothing at all but those 200ish people that were involved got huge bragging rights as it was only ever killed on 1 server.
Dullahan said:Raiding is great. There should always be bigger and better things to discover and conquer for those who have the time. I want a world full of mysteries and where the average player couldn't hope to see and do everything.
That said, Visionary Realms say group play is the goal, first and foremost. I don't think we have to worry about complete expansions of nothing but raid content. Particularly in a game where the non-raid progression will be harder and more time consuming. The average player isn't likely going to have time to raid like the way they do in MMOs these days.
I agree that most of our time won't be spent in raid. However, even in the EQ days, I raided 5-6 nights a week. We'd log on and the first thing we were doing was scouting to see what was up. Hell half the time I knew what was up an hour before I got home as people on the east coast were already off work and scouting. The only nights we weren't raiding was Sunday's (our off day unless we knew a priority target was going to spawn) and when we had nothing up which was rare.
I don't agree with saying that group content will be harder than a raid though. Group content is usually so easy I can binge watch netflix while playing. Find a camp, break it, and back to watching tv. When raids are done properly, that's not something that's easy to do since there is a lot to watch out for. Hell I still say that one of my favorite events in EQ was Bertox. Time limit to get to him and kill him which meant constant pulls in a tight area on crappy pc's where my fps would go from 80 to 4 when the fireworks began. Good times trying to heal during that
Dullahan said:Group content will be harder and more time consuming than normal group content in most MMOs. Not harder than raid content.
Why can't it be harder than raid content? sure the raid leader has a job tellin everyone what to do..but for the rest of the players? Why do raids get all the fun fight mechanics, best gear, and expansions, whereas lower levels, groupers, soloers, and those who generally don't have as much time to play are left in the dust?
BeaverBiscuit said:Dullahan said:Group content will be harder and more time consuming than normal group content in most MMOs. Not harder than raid content.
Why can't it be harder than raid content? sure the raid leader has a job tellin everyone what to do..but for the rest of the players? Why do raids get all the fun fight mechanics, best gear, and expansions, whereas lower levels, groupers, soloers, and those who generally don't have as much time to play are left in the dust?
Im not sure its a case of raids getting the better/harder mechanics and more that its harder to complete the mechanics in such large groups.
BeaverBiscuit said:Dullahan said:Group content will be harder and more time consuming than normal group content in most MMOs. Not harder than raid content.
Why can't it be harder than raid content? sure the raid leader has a job tellin everyone what to do..but for the rest of the players? Why do raids get all the fun fight mechanics, best gear, and expansions, whereas lower levels, groupers, soloers, and those who generally don't have as much time to play are left in the dust?
I was just trying to clarify that I wasn't claiming group content would be harder than raiding in general. I'm sure there will be group encounters that are even more demanding on 6 players than a raid could be for 30+. But raiding is different in that part of the challenge is coordinating many players versus few. That aspect will not be matched in group play.
Coda said:Perhaps when a raid is completed, I'd love to see rewards.
- Lore permitting, a zone or area opens up/is changed forever (volcano erupting)/ect. This change is server only and world wide, past the world first completion.
- If you are a world first clear, you get a respectable prize only for the world first. Nothing stat related, but definitely something with a little bit of showoffyness to it. Raiding for world first is really difficult, especially for difficult games, and the prestige that comes with it should be noted.
- Following zones, important lore NPCs that died during the raid should be removed from the server.
- If it's the highest level raid, drops the 'best' loot. Perhaps some loot isn't for stats, but has unique utility effects. What if the raid boss dropped a Cloak of Featherfall? No stats, but could you imagine the lengths would go for immunity to fall damage with a cooldown?
- Because of Pantheon's system when it comes to skills and spells, unique raid specific skills and spells could drop. Perhaps even themed from boss skills and spells.
Basically, story related time should move forward, players should feel rewarded for doing the raid; loot wise and prestige wise, and players should get rewards that feel good to obtain.
Hello all, first time posting here on Pantheon Forums! I love raiding in other MMO's, it is by far my favorite form of gaming/MMO activity. Due to this, I have to agree with Coda here, raids have always been basic gear shoved in your hands after deafeating the boss, yet when the next cookie cutter xpac hits it is worthless, a relic of the past. Utility effects and more prestige-focused items would be greatly appreciated and enjoyed when raiding.
Fraii said:Hello all, first time posting here on Pantheon Forums! I love raiding in other MMO's, it is by far my favorite form of gaming/MMO activity. Due to this, I have to agree with Coda here, raids have always been basic gear shoved in your hands after deafeating the boss, yet when the next cookie cutter xpac hits it is worthless, a relic of the past. Utility effects and more prestige-focused items would be greatly appreciated and enjoyed when raiding.
First off, Welcome to the future! And the forums for that matter :D
I agree that most modern day MMOs are this way. With each expansion, the new gear is always hands down better than the previous. If you would give us a little back story on you and what MMOs you grew up playing I could go a bit more in detail showing differences but since most of the people here came from EQ1 we relate a lot of topics based on that. Since that is what we are hoping Pantheon brings us back to. I mention that because in EQ this wasn't always the case, well early EQ anyway. Even into Velious (3rd expansion) things like the Cloak of Flames from Naggy in classic was still a highly sought item and still very relevant. Basically it comes down to not inflating item power so much that there is a significant increase with each new content release. Things should get stronger but with caps in place and a limit to the power put into items over time you can make it so that things from the past are still completely viable and relevant in current content even years after.
Dullahan said:I don't really have a problem with some areas requiring some sort of key or attunement. Most things shouldn't be that way, for sure, but Veeshan's Peak and Sleeper's Tomb were both keyed dungeons that took considerable work to get a guild in.
Like in all other aspects of a game, there will be things that aren't accessible without putting in some work first. Giant mysterious locked doors are a great incentive to keep people playing.
My feelings exactly.
Coda said:Raiding has been, traditionally, the absolute top of the PvE pyramid. Turns out, doing the top tier content should provide best rewards, even sometimes unlocking new content for the world to play.
So when it comes to raiding, I'd love to see rewards of that stature.
Perhaps when a raid is completed, I'd love to see rewards.
- Lore permitting, a zone or area opens up/is changed forever (volcano erupting)/ect. This change is server only and world wide, past the world first completion.
- If you are a world first clear, you get a respectable prize only for the world first. Nothing stat related, but definitely something with a little bit of showoffyness to it. Raiding for world first is really difficult, especially for difficult games, and the prestige that comes with it should be noted.
- Following zones, important lore NPCs that died during the raid should be removed from the server.
- If it's the highest level raid, drops the 'best' loot. Perhaps some loot isn't for stats, but has unique utility effects. What if the raid boss dropped a Cloak of Featherfall? No stats, but could you imagine the lengths would go for immunity to fall damage with a cooldown?
- Because of Pantheon's system when it comes to skills and spells, unique raid specific skills and spells could drop. Perhaps even themed from boss skills and spells.
Basically, story related time should move forward, players should feel rewarded for doing the raid; loot wise and prestige wise, and players should get rewards that feel good to obtain.
It takes a lot of time and money to create something in game. From a business point of view, VR is not going to spend their very limited budget to create something for one small set of people to enjoy. There is simply no return on investment.
Now when games are mature and dying, this type of thing can happen. For example, Daybreak set up its Race to Trakanon and Qwarm servers for something similar and charged a premium to play in them. But, that was just a blatant cash grab and not serious development. They already had the assets in game and just had to put limitations together.
I agree with Beefcake not only from a ROI point of view for the company but also from the point of view of someone who really enjoys PLAYING the game, not rushing through everything to get the biggest reward. I'd be kind of ticked off if I missed out on the amazing content the developers put together because I didn't go on vacation the first couple of months the game was released to have the time to be the part of the first group to vanquish said bad guy and experience the full story.
I'll get there in due time, don't make me rush for fear of missing out on it entirely.
Beefcake said:Coda said:Raiding has been, traditionally, the absolute top of the PvE pyramid. Turns out, doing the top tier content should provide best rewards, even sometimes unlocking new content for the world to play.
So when it comes to raiding, I'd love to see rewards of that stature.
Perhaps when a raid is completed, I'd love to see rewards.
- Lore permitting, a zone or area opens up/is changed forever (volcano erupting)/ect. This change is server only and world wide, past the world first completion.
- If you are a world first clear, you get a respectable prize only for the world first. Nothing stat related, but definitely something with a little bit of showoffyness to it. Raiding for world first is really difficult, especially for difficult games, and the prestige that comes with it should be noted.
- Following zones, important lore NPCs that died during the raid should be removed from the server.
- If it's the highest level raid, drops the 'best' loot. Perhaps some loot isn't for stats, but has unique utility effects. What if the raid boss dropped a Cloak of Featherfall? No stats, but could you imagine the lengths would go for immunity to fall damage with a cooldown?
- Because of Pantheon's system when it comes to skills and spells, unique raid specific skills and spells could drop. Perhaps even themed from boss skills and spells.
Basically, story related time should move forward, players should feel rewarded for doing the raid; loot wise and prestige wise, and players should get rewards that feel good to obtain.
It takes a lot of time and money to create something in game. From a business point of view, VR is not going to spend their very limited budget to create something for one small set of people to enjoy. There is simply no return on investment.
Now when games are mature and dying, this type of thing can happen. For example, Daybreak set up its Race to Trakanon and Qwarm servers for something similar and charged a premium to play in them. But, that was just a blatant cash grab and not serious development. They already had the assets in game and just had to put limitations together.
Well, I'm not saying every raid needs to have all the rewards I put. I'm also not saying that these rewords need to exist to make a good raid. I'm just throwing rewards at the wall to see what other think... I just like the idea of high-level endgame content having a much larger effect on the world than just, "hey, thanks for beating this hard dungeon, here is some stat sticks and the title: Thanks for Participating".
I wouldn't mind some rewards, like a rare utility item or rare skill, be part of a higher difficulty quest chain, or whatever. I just think that a lot of MMOs right now don't even think about rewarding the player properly for doing difficult content.
I just can't buy into that. The game should not be built as a race. It's the journey that matters.
Dont get me wrong, I put in my 40+ hours a week. But, I will never be in the top guild that gets all the server firsts. I enjoy all aspects of the game, not just racing to one.
Plus, if I enjoy an experience on my main, I may enjoy that experience on my alts as well. Just because I complete something once, does not mean I should not be able to do it again.
Give those hardest of core people their achievements, titles, etc., but do not take an experience from me just because you already did it.
Would rather see raiding be scaled down from its current prominence in modern mmos. I would prefer to see the emphasis be on group content as the core of difficulty, with raid content being more of a logistical feat. In XI, for example, most people will refer to the long main story of the second expansion (Chains of Promathia) with great reverence because it involved a very long series of group-based story dungeons and fights. Clearing the fights unlocked more areas of the expansion and, eventually, the open-world "endgame" zone of Sea. For everybody who wasn't super hardcore, the moderate-heavy difficulty of travelling through these places and the fights themselves kept them busy for months, and because even more group fights unlocked as a result of progressing most people basically didn't even need the "raid" encounters at the end to have a fulfilling expansion.
The actual raid monsters were more of a logistical feat: learning spawn mechanics and figuring out what your group should be camping / what you'll do that night was basically as hard as the fights themselves. You didn't have to assemble precisely x people to progress and unlock the next thing; instead you had "at least" a certain number of key classes online to be able to do whatever, and if you didn't then you'd do something else. As a result there was way less attrition and people didn't feel so bad about having to miss something on a given night. It put way less strain on the dynamics of the larger guild because raids were a way of farming gear to be badasses and not the singular means of proving onesself.
I guess tl;dr If anything I'd prefer to see raids be designed as a smaller part of a large ecosystem of events that are farmed over the course of years for fun instead of things that must be "beaten" and immediately obsoleted. I'd prefer to see group content form the majority of unlocks, story encounters and the like.
I don't see why logistical complications of raid encounters should be the only factor.
I could just as easily say that I'd like to see less group content and more raid content in Pantheon because I'd assuredly be raiding. Barring arguments with regards to what content style the majority of the playerbase will prefer, it's equally valid.
I tnink raid content is perfectly fine the way it is in current and past games. It is the logical top tier of gameplay.
I believe VR intends to have group content trump raids for most activity.
Raiding will be for those, like me, who want to raid as an extra part of the game. But, there is not a built-in need to raid in Pantheon.
Everyone defines success as they will. Some will want to raid exclusively, let them. Some will be competitive, not not exclusive. Others will be casual, and some will do none.
Find the guild that meets your play style. Don't be pushed to raid hard core if you don't want to.
If people get bored because they completed all the raid content, sucks to be them. Let them whine and ***** all they want. That's part of their game play.
I plan to raid too Liav if I can. I apologize, I did not mean to imply that there was no difficulty in raiding, I meant more along the lines of: group content, which is far and away the most accessible stuff for people, should form the majority of content unlocks and also present most of the individual-level challenge. Raiding, since not only has it forever been a niche part of the community but also is not the majority of propose Pantheon content, should form more of, as Beefcake said, "an extra part of the game".
Basically not gating story and **** behind raids in the first place but still making people work to see the story.
I have never found the story to compelling in raids. In my experience, most story is from quests, books, and dungeons.
Raids are usualily intended to show the final part of the story lines, but they rarely achieve that.
So, in my opinion, there no story gated behind raids.
Beefcake said:Everyone defines success as they will. Some will want to raid exclusively, let them. Some will be competitive, not not exclusive. Others will be casual, and some will do none.
I actually don't think raiding exclusively will be an option in Pantheon. This is just a guess based on what they've said, and what we experienced in early EQ and VG, but with most of the content revolving around group play, it would probably leave a player at a real disadvantage were they to merely focus on raiding. There will be a lot more to progression in Pantheon than what we've become accustomed to in today's MMO; which focuses primarily on experience and levels.
Not to mention the fact that raid content is only intended to make up a small percentage of content overall. I guess if people want to try to rush to max and only log on when there is something to raid, they can try to do it exclusively. Something tells me they are going to struggle though.