chenzeme said: I personally am a creative person and I take and listen to criticism where ever it lies. You cant please everyone, but sometimes people have something to say that does resonate. The aim here is not to second guess anyone. It is simply stating what I and others find jarring or not right. And if you read anything that I have posted on this thread there are no comparisons with eq at all. I don't agree that we cannot influence the graphics and VR themselves have said that they are listening and even said they take on board the lack of danger and menace in the models. I think it is very relevant to say what is lacking given the premise of the world and its history. VR have said that they are listening. The "PORT" for a lot of people is moody and dangerous. That is my port and I do know which way my wind is blowing. If you dont want to contribute or think it futile, that is fine with me. But dont expect me to lie down and give up. Hence this thread.
The point I'm making is that what you find "jarring or not right" is your personal view based on what you know. What you know is based on what you've done and seen in the past such as EverQuest, Vanguard, Final Fantasy etc. etc. It's based on things you've done or seen throughout your entire life, not what is possible. You can't imagine something that doesn't relate in anyway to what you personally are aware of.
I'm also not saying you should give up or that influence isn't possible. What I am saying is that without a direction a "PORT", the developers won't know where they want to go, so what they present to us to approve or disapprove of will not be a specific target or goal. If we don't know where they're going and they don't, who is helming the ship? Nobody but a committee at best. The influence will be largely spinning wheels if they don't have a definitive goal which is the scope of the project.
Therein lies the problem. If I'm offering you a product and am wanting YOU to think of what YOU want, you're going to come up with something you're somewhat or very familiar with. If I want to create something new and unique, I need to account for what your familiar with enough to bring you along into my vision of what could be. There's a reason why car engines are measured in horsepower. The car is a carriage a "horseless carriage". It builds off of what came before and offers something people never knew they preferred, transportation similar to a carriage with a horse, without the horse. Pantheon was supposed to be the horseless carriage, an MMO that met our needs for transportation and kept the general essence of what the carriage is, but alleviated the bloat and problems that have come about over time with other franchises. Instead of trying to be a super car, it was going to return to the the classic idea, return to the basics, what made many people fall in love with the genre in the first place.
What we're currently trending towards is similar to a politician that asks what you want them to say to secure your vote. There's always hope that they mean it, and sometimes they really do. That doesn't change what's actually possible though and giving power to someone that doesn't know how to wield it is asking for disaster more often then not.
"The point I'm making is that what you find "jarring or not right" is your personal view based on what you know"
Can it be based on what others know as well? Can it be based on a society or community? Can there be a collective knowing of something? Seems like society works that way as well.
"You can't imagine something that doesn't relate in anyway to what you personally are aware of."
Of course you can, even Mathematics includes the concept of infinity which I am not personally aware of.
"The influence will be largely spinning wheels if they don't have a definitive goal which is the scope of the project."
Influence gives scopes and goals. It tends to motivate people, that is by definition what influence is.
" If I'm offering you a product and am wanting YOU to think of what YOU want, you're going to come up with something you're somewhat or very familiar with"
That is a strawman. I came up with infinity, are you familiar with infinity?
"If I want to create something new and unique, I need to account for what your familiar with enough to bring you along into my vision of what could be"
But then by definition it is new and unique so by definition it isn't what it was like in the past.
"giving power to someone that doesn't know how to wield it is asking for disaster more often then not."
So we shouldn't give people the power to vote because someone somewhere decided they don't know how to wield it? How does that person know how to wield it?
Xerion said:
"The point I'm making is that what you find "jarring or not right" is your personal view based on what you know"
Can it be based on what others know as well? Can it be based on a society or community? Can there be a collective knowing of something? Seems like society works that way as well.
"You can't imagine something that doesn't relate in anyway to what you personally are aware of."
Of course you can, even Mathematics includes the concept of infinity which I am not personally aware of.
"The influence will be largely spinning wheels if they don't have a definitive goal which is the scope of the project."
Influence gives scopes and goals. It tends to motivate people, that is by definition what influence is.
" If I'm offering you a product and am wanting YOU to think of what YOU want, you're going to come up with something you're somewhat or very familiar with"
That is a strawman. I came up with infinity, are you familiar with infinity?
Xerion said:
"If I want to create something new and unique, I need to account for what your familiar with enough to bring you along into my vision of what could be"
But then by definition it is new and unique so by definition it isn't what it was like in the past.
Xerion said:
"giving power to someone that doesn't know how to wield it is asking for disaster more often then not."
So we shouldn't give people the power to vote because someone somewhere decided they don't know how to wield it? How does that person know how to wield it?
arazons said:
chenzeme said: VR have stated that they will use and Improve the models in game now, so let's try to make the best of them. I am not convinced that they will be as atmospheric and engaging as VR think, but even I am tired of the total non-engagement of some. It is what it is. Get behind it or don't, but give the "woh is me" a rest. Shess!! Try to be constructive not just stuff like: "this is pap..." It has all been said 100 times or more. This is about improving things. Constructive not dismissive. Why is it pap, how can it improve?
I dont know, I kind of think people have a right to say what they want in the way they want. If you dont like it dont read it. Telling them that you dont like something is infact constructive. It lets them know that part of their audience doesnt like what they are doing.
chenzeme said:arazons said:Saying anything, anyway you wish, can cause aggravation and dials up tempers if stated without restraint. "If you dont like it dont read it"? How? How do you know you dont like a text until it is read? Inane! Telling someone you don't like something is not constructive unless it comes with a reason for that dislike. For a complaint to be constructive, it requires context. "I dont like the graphics." <- Just a personal point of view, almost useless. "I dont like the graphics because they are not moody enough" <- Now we are starting to understanding why. "I dont like the graphics because they are not moody enough. The character models are too friendly looking" <- Constructive criticism. I dont agree that a simple "I dont like..." is constructive. It simply says there is a problem. Not what the problem exactly is or how to fix it. It is just a grumble at best when there is no context to the disapproval.chenzeme said: VR have stated that they will use and Improve the models in game now, so let's try to make the best of them. I am not convinced that they will be as atmospheric and engaging as VR think, but even I am tired of the total non-engagement of some. It is what it is. Get behind it or don't, but give the "woh is me" a rest. Shess!! Try to be constructive not just stuff like: "this is pap..." It has all been said 100 times or more. This is about improving things. Constructive not dismissive. Why is it pap, how can it improve?I dont know, I kind of think people have a right to say what they want in the way they want. If you dont like it dont read it. Telling them that you dont like something is infact constructive. It lets them know that part of their audience doesnt like what they are doing.
lotuss79 said:I mean yea, even if you go back to the first streams of Cohh playing a rogue back in 2016, I think the majority of this community would have preferred those graphics, to these new hand painted graphics. But did you ever try EQ Landmark? It looked pretty similar to the new art style and I found EQ Landmark quite immersive. I was featured on an EQLandmark website for one of my house designs up on a hill. I was very much addicted to playing that game every free minute I had. I think given the chance and some time, VR will start to show off some content that will be closer in line with people's expectations, versus the god awful 5 minute reveal video. Will it be as good as what it would have been in realistic graphics? Of course not. But I think it will still end up being immersive. The rest of what you said, I simply can't agree with. The art style change doesn't signify the entire game is going to change to "match" the new art style. Whatever that actually means. The new art style might appeal to a very small amount of people from the newer generation. But almost none of today's "kids" (if that's what you're referring to, by broader audience in this example) have 0 interest in an oldschool tab-target MMORPGs created in the spirit of EQ1. They never will. They don't have the attention span required for an MMORPG.Thaolin, i remember staring at my spell book to meditate and regen mana. And how great it was at lvl 12 (14?) when i didn’t have to do that anymore.The game was difficult and progress was rewarding.However, i don’t think i could have ever gotten immersed in the world of Norath if it had these kind of graphics.It wasn’t high end by today’s standards, but it at least tried for realism, and that made immersion possible.And that made for maybe the greatest video game ever.What we were promised was a spiritual successor to that. Regardless of what the “broader audience” would want.What we are getting now is not going to be another “greatest video game ever”, but another flash in the pan failure, and it’s honestly all to do with the graphics.*side note, there is no way they will keep the hard core gameplay now.the new graphics and the audience it cater to are incompatible with that.gameplay will get dumbed down and be more in line with the new art style. and not “in my opinion” either. it just will.
Thaolin said: I never post here. I check in on the game from time to time. I was completely stunned and disheartened to see Pantheon go this way with the art. I understand the necessity of laying a foundational art style that encompasses the game world moving forward. I understand the shift to the current cartoon style cutsie pixar rave. The need for your hard work to pay off with a substantial audience so Pantheon can continue on, and in the end that is what all of us truly want. However there is something be said about fantasy and world creating. This a role playing game and now what once was an "epic" fantasy game is now a storybook fairy tale game. There is a huge difference between lets say for example, Conan the Barbian's world versus say Shrek's world. We all know the differences between WoW and EQ, we all know the difference between Arma 2 and Fortnite. WoW actually deserves its art style, it was a fabulous transition to a first person world and closely aligned with the style of WC3. Will this game still be hard? Ill play any game on its merit. I played Fornite for its mechanics and left because its for kids now (as its artstyle implies). I played WoW because it was a solid mmo, I left because its now a game for casual tourists and not true gamers (people who have meditated looking at their spellbook know who I mean).To this day though, I still put 1000-2500 hours a year into Ultima Online, EQ, Eve, Shroud of the Avatar, in my spare time , just because of the gameplay mechanics alone. I honestly didnt wait a decade to play a game that looked like every other cutstie mobile and kid cartoon style game. I dont want to role play a fairy tale. But I will play for the mechanics. I hope the world is brutal and unforgiving and accomplishments truly mean something, or this game will fail from the start just on the graphic art style alone.
I don't think I could agree more with a post. Especially the part about the art change doing more than just changing the aesthetics, but in fact changing the whole feel and genre from "epic fantasy game" to "storybook fairy tale game". I too am not following the game solely for the graphics, but I was really hoping for the more visceral world of Conan the Barbarian with the adults instead of Peter Pan with the kids. No matter how "dark and scary" they try to make Captain Hook appear, it will still be very vanilla with the current graphics (for me). I still plan to try and have fun... WoW's graphics were cartoony, but innovative for it's time, and more importantly, the mechanics and gameplay were amazing and very immersive (originally). VR needs to deliver big with the gameplay... like really, really big.
Atarius said:
As a kid who did get into the original EQ mechanics I think I can say that kids today can too. The problem is it's a niche thing even way back then, it's not going to be the "5 dollar hot and ready" pizza of the game world. But that's the point is it not? Quality over quantity.
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chenzeme said: Eq was not niche. Maybe now, but not in 1999, or the next few years. Not at all.
EQ was very niche. RPG was a niche genre of gameplay on its own, video gaming in general was frowned upon by the majority of the adult population and MMOs were relatively non-existent... but people that were involved with them were called nerds. If a hobby someone was involved in was abstract enough to have them categorized as a nerd, that would qualify as niche...
chenzeme said:
Darch: EQ was very niche. RPG was a niche genre of gameplay on its own,...
Yeah, thing is, computer games themselves were niche back then but all genres of game styles were popular for computer players, including RPGs. Computer games may have been niche when compared to non-computing activities, but in terms of computing and game genres, I totally disagree. I remember, I was there. There were 1000s of players active at any one time on my server and there were multiple servers. Our guild had over 100 active player almost constantly and we were not a huge guild.
And today, according to Analysis of games launched in 2022 so far | Video Game Insights (vginsights.com), the RPG genre have 14% of sales, action 19%. RPG just is not niche.
Atarius said:
As a kid who did get into the original EQ mechanics I think I can say that kids today can too. The problem is it's a niche thing even way back then, it's not going to be the "5 dollar hot and ready" pizza of the game world. But that's the point is it not? Quality over quantity.
To grow the audience someone has to take the time to sell people on the actual mechanics and game play. Like people who have a great experience with a particular brand of car, it often makes them a repeat buyer and possibly lifelong buyer that will encourage their family to do so as well. Especially if they or someone in the family works for the car company as well.
Just like Demon's Souls' was at first the fun of "the hardest game in the world". It was a word of mouth challenge and it grew into everything that Fromsoftware has done since.
We need better marketing and word of mouth. The failure of so many MMORPG startups though has seriously hampered the word of mouth aspect. Some indie or smaller game company with something to prove has to get the ball rolling again. This time hopefully it won't lead to WoW after that effort and the learning of all the wrong lessons again (mini maps, easier difficulty, indicators over the heads of npcs' for quests etc.).