Jeremiahcp said:
There are already a lot of threads about the graphics.
chenzeme said:Jeremiahcp said: There are already a lot of threads about the graphics.Well done for noticing, however, this is about specifics not generals. I am trying to be objective and state what is troubling me specifically about the style changes shown so far.
"What is troubling [you]" would be subjective.
chenzeme said: I want Pantheon to be successful. I do! I didn't buy into the premise wanting it to fail, and I still have (some) hope for the game. I get the apparent need for 247 and am willing to accept it as primarily a data gathering tool for VR and I will even play and see how it all meshes together. I also get the need to simplify the shaders and models for the game, given what we have (eventually) been told. But. And it is a very, very big but (and I cannot lie); I just cannot, at this point, get my head around the chosen graphics style. Yes, I understand that some like it, but there are just as many that don’t. Some vehemently hate them, and being honest, I am close to this group. What I find problematic is this: Style: Just too kid friendly (cartoony). No grit. No dirt. No weathering. No age. Flat. Too bright. Land: Too little ground foliage. Road too flat (no bump mapping) and too wide. Rocks and stone look like D&D tabletop models. Tree foliage; ok. Tree trunks; just not wood like. Distant trees are flat. Buildings: Too precise. Everything cut, just so. All elements too much alike. Not enough… difference. It is too obvious that each element is in effect stamped in place using the same blue-print, e.g., all columns, identical, flat, no texture, no individuality. Handrails are all identical, clean, pristine. Houses look like they have just been built on an estate. Water: Non-reflective, flat, dull. On the 247 video, it does give an impression of depth, however. Characters: NPC models look very “similar”. I fear PCs will be too, I want to be an individual in Pantheon. Armour is flat, no reflections at all. No texture on clothing. Studs on leather are flat. Floating shield on arm (meh). Chest piece, flat (chest centre just doesn’t pop). Crafting Stations: Flat, no shadows, no dirt, too pristine. Movement: Running; way too bouncy. Not sure I would move a hammer from my back to my hands just to run? Night-time: Moody sky. Dark, few lights. Lovely sunset. Good! Portal arch: Very little texture. Floating bits are static. Lilac in colour?!. Too pristine looking. Extraction portal: blue floaty stuff suddenly appears when you get close. Structure is too flat, clean, pristine, bright, no texture. Same criticisms on most objects; flat, pristine, clean, bright, lifeless, identical. Now I know that these graphics are in progress, however, this is what we have been given thus far, and this is what I am commenting on. Not some possible, imagined, future release; I am commenting on the now. The current style and shadings are nowhere near being atmospheric enough for what Pantheon promises to be. At this point, I would try Pantheon, but would I stay? I am really not sure. That's how much I dislike what we currently have. If I saw this advertised now, today, without knowing the vision behind Pantheon, I would move on to another game. The promise of the game is why I am still here. These (current) graphics could end up being a deal breaker for me. Even the Pantheon logo shows more intrigue and menace than the current graphics implementation does. Having said that, I will hope for more mood and will wait until VR says "this is now set; the graphics rendering engine is complete", before I make up my final mind.
Calling the Hand-Painted style "cartoony" and "kid friendly" is a very loaded claim. Fact is, WoW has used the style for over 20 years itself, and millions of (adult) people are completely fine with that. Can Hand-Painted art be more kiddy? Sure. But thats not the case here. The Hand-Painted style can look beautiful, or dark and gritty. Just depends on the artist and art direction.
There is a DEFINITE lack of ground foliage in the screenshots and videos. Especially compared to the same content using the old style. It's fair to point that out, as it does not look good. But there is very likely 2 reasons for that. One, with the art style change, they are probably still trying to get a feel of how the new art consumes resources and what they can get away with. Two, they have likely only got the bare minimum of art converted to the new style. We very well may have seen bushes and rocks filling up more empty space as time went on, without having to point it out. I'll even add on the Terrain textures. The transitions between 2 texture types, like stone path and grass... looks terrible. But thats a common Unity thing. How a developer gets around that is by making transitional textures that are 50/50 grass/stone path and painting that to the terrain in between. But that takes a lot of work to cover all the texture combos, and takes up more memory resources.
I do feel that VR failed to put their best foot forward when having to convince enough people to accept this change. But I do look at it more realistically and open mindedly. I don't have a issue with the Hand-Painted style at all. But they DO need to work on it more! The things I mentioned... and the character models. They are terrible. Guys are not "cool", women are not "hot", and while I hate WoW's armor design with a passion... The armor I have seen here so far is ugly and bland. Maybe... its newbie armor. Newbie armor tends to be worse looking than later game armor. But again... They really needed to be putting their best foot forward... and did not.
Child friendly cartoony style has indeed worked elsewhere, never said or implied otherwise. I simply stated what is, and that is different to what was. For me, the current implemented style does not show any grit or mood or suspense or danger or peril. Indeed, a painted quality graphic can be moody and gritty. But this, so far, is not.
I state plainly that I am commenting on what we have been given, now, today! Hand painted can look beautiful and gritty. Currently, nope! The critique is based on the presented graphics, not what may or may not happen. As soon as we are given something more, then I will respond to that.
I agree with dorotea, npcs don't need to be "hot". This is irrelevant and a point of view that is bordering on sexist. They should be more individual, more believable. That is all.
dorotea said: "Guys are not "cool", women are not "hot"" With all due respect I am more than glad that you are not working on the game design if this is what you hope to see in characters and NPCs.
There is nothing wrong with that. Zero. If you think there is... that says more about you than anything. That you have a ego and are trying to act morally superior.
Fact is, when starring at a character creator and having to choose how your character that you will be spending a LOT of time looking at or representing you, looks, you want it to look its best. This is how it's always been for many or most people. The idea that people want their characters too look like and represent them IRL is a modern falsehood that I think you are inferring. That's fine for some, but not others. I play games for escapism. Always have, always will. And when doing so, I choose Avatars that I find appealing and represent me as best I can.
Get over yourself.
Grimseethe said: No one likes the art style, not even the Devs, anyone saying they do is on copium.
Well. I can factually say that is 100% false.
I like the art style. The current implementation of that style? No. But the style in general is not only one that I am fine with, but that I like.
And I'm sure at the least, many of the devs like it. Particularly the artists.
Zero "copium" involved. Ton of projection on your end though. Don't like the art style? Fine. You are allowed your voice. But in no way pretend that you speak for everyone like you do.
chenzeme said:I agree with dorotea, npcs don't need to be "hot". This is irrelevant and a point of view that is bordering on sexist. They should be more individual, more believable. That is all.
"Know how to spot a real sexist? They cherry pick stuff like that in order to signal their own moral superiority complex"
"Not all of us subscribe to modern extreme far-left 3rd wave feminism
ideology, nor do we fit the mold of what they pretend everyone that
disagrees with them is."
"It is plainly simple, and only a issue to insane people. Many people
like male characters they play to be cool/bad ass looking, and female
characters to be pretty/hot looking. Regardless if they are a
male/female themselves. Get out of your own echo-chamber sometimes... If
you want to play lame/ugly looking characters, thats fine. I'm sure
there will be options for such models. The rest of us want options too
though."
dorotea said:
justdrop said:
NPCs are not people. Period.
In the context of a computer roleplaying game I find this sentiment a bit odd. Literally they are not. Neither are our characters. Shall we all just go off and play Sim City or Barbie in Outer Space?