The last newsletter said we are switching art directions to go in a way that is easier for computers to process, less expensive, faster for a small independent team to work with and more contemporary.
Given the history of Pantheon development I have to admit that seeing the words "new direction" terrifies me. Easier for computers to handle is good but often goes hand-in-hand with lower quality. Less expensive is good but almost always goes in the direction of lower quality. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The word "contemporary" horrifies me - it brings up images of cartoons and anime replacing much of the realism I have expected and hoped for.
Given the budget and size of the team - and the urgency of moving as rapidly as possible towards alpha, beta and release - I will not criticize any move that speeds things up and reduces cost. But it is fair to say this raises ...concerns.
I defended the development speed.
I defended the changes to the network stack.
I defended the changes to the art pipeline and rendering process.
At this point I've largely checked out of the community here because I struggle to maintain interest at the current glacial pace.
And today I read that because of an inability to optimize, even after all the previous changes, the art is to be revamped. And revamped into more stylized simplified visuals. One might say much like the majority of MMO's catering to a more simplified audience....
You're losing me VR. It's been a really long road. I've been very vocal about a couple of things I didn't like the sound of, and I've reserved judgement on a lot of things I dislike in the mechanics direction, but I'm tetering on the edge or regret here.
Ranarius said:What did you think of the screenshots?
Initial reaction? Looks an awful lot like hundreds of products that already exist. They even stated it's to appeal to a "broader, more contemporary audience". I was really looking forward to an MMO with a look that was more realistic. That stood out. I'd prefer that, warts and all, to yet another familiar semi-cartoony mass market aesthitic like WoW or Fortnight.
Why did it take 9.5 years go reach this decision? Back when VR did the world refactor when they rebuilt all the zones, reverting them to greybox, would have been a great point at which to change art styles because you're working from a blank slate. But they continued forward with the more realistic art style.
Though my presence within these digital realms has been a muted one, my gaze has been ensnared by the unfolding narrative of this game over the expanse of time. A vigilant sentinel, I have stood, espousing the game's virtues to my brethren of the joystick, a knight sworn to defend its honor against the cynics who claimed its elusive manifestation would forever evade our grasp.
Yet, like the shadows of twilight descending upon a forlorn landscape, this recent revelation strikes the chord of an elegy within me. The dirge of certainty rings clear – the game, it appears, has embraced the mantle of finality. Even if by some enigmatic providence it dares to emerge from the shadows, I fear it shall do so as a mere specter, a fleeting echo of the grandiose promises that once stirred our souls.
In their communiqué, they speak of a discord with their devoted audience, a yearning to court a new assembly of souls. Alas, I am of the belief that this transmutation will avail them naught. Their dalliance with graphical artifice, while laudable in intent, shall fail to ensnare the very hearts they now seek to captivate. The primordial devotees, those who clung to the tapestry woven with anticipation, shall turn their gaze elsewhere in somber lament.
Gazing upon the glimpses they have chosen to bestow, I am met with a countenance that evokes naught but incredulity. What semblance of promise remains has been obscured by the veils of artful reticence. Methinks they should have adorned this reveal with a panoply of revelations, a veritable treasure trove of substance. I am reminded of the fateful transformation of EQ2, as it forsook the realm of realism for the embrace of caricature. Alas, history shall weave a similar fate for Pantheon, it seems.
The augury before me is clear, unerring in its eloquence. The tale that was to be Pantheon, the harbinger of a new age, now languishes in the sepulcher of aspirations unfulfilled. Let us remember, as the poet whispered, that a picture oft speaks volumes. The images cast forth, the heralds of their intentions, paint a somber tableau of a game relinquished to the realm of oblivion.
Thus, we bid adieu to the last vestige of hope that was Pantheon, the last ember of a once-promising blaze, now but a wistful memory in the annals of gaming lore.
Hello All,
This is really discouraging to hear about. Where is the real progress for this game? Faerthale's completion was progress. Show us some geographic locations being built, more creatures, more quests, gear or structures? You dont have to over-share with us, but if lets say, the world was 100% completed, then that is some nice input. Produce something. Pantheon has been rebuilt over and over and over again for 8 years... At what point do we stop and look at VR for just milking us for money and our time?
The Networking and Art pipelines should absolutely be complete at this point in the games development considering the large sum of money they've secured(2.4 Mil) one year ago. Between then and now, I have not seen much of the actual development aside from monthly PA testing(only for the 1%) and Crafting was about the only thing noteworthy and even that was a misfire in my opinion(too early of reveal to make out any real judgement on). I went through all the videos they released in the last year and they are mostly about discussions on what they want to do.
So, what is in store for the next 4 months in 2023? RE-working art, again?
Sincerely,
Passionate Fan
Anyone have a link to the new art or new screenshots? (Newer than 60 days)?
Generally I support any change being made as I understand the team wants to balance quality and speed. It can't be easy to make these decisions.
I liked the art in the letter but I don't know what exactly I'm looking at. It's here [ https://www.pantheonmmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-website-features/20230817_IMG_HumanWolfForest_2560x1440.png ]
Is this image just a digital painting of the hope and aim of what VR is going for?
StoneFish said:Anyone have a link to the new art or new screenshots? (Newer than 60 days)?
Generally I support any change being made as I understand the team wants to balance quality and speed. It can't be easy to make these decisions.
I liked the art in the letter but I don't know what exactly I'm looking at. It's here [ https://www.pantheonmmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-website-features/20230817_IMG_HumanWolfForest_2560x1440.png ]
Is this image just a digital painting of the hope and aim of what VR is going for?
Nope..not a digital painting.
@Deathstroke: Ode to a brave soul that doth relinquish a dream to mingle thus amidst the last muted rays of a dying sun.
Vandraad: Vandaddy smacks the nail on the head- "Why did it take 9.5 years to reach this decision? Back when VR did the world refactor when they rebuilt all the zones, reverting them to greybox, would have been a great point at which to change art styles because you're working from a blank slate. But they continued forward with the more realistic art style."
At times I wonder why they did not find a way to scavenge from a long-dead (and formerly working) corpse of another MMORPG. Something like Warhammer or Vanguard, or from any of the other graves. Take Pantheon's ideas and graft them into a golem that can withstand the petulant tides of today's market.
I no longer listen to the SotG, read the monthly newsletter, or listen to YT content creators.
Time will no longer tell, it is now a millstone around the necks of the hopeful.
Finish the game and prove the prophets of doom wrong.
Godspeed team.
I've added the most recent screenshot in the new art style on the media page.
This new artstyle is very disheartening. I'll have to wait and see a bit more before really judging it but so far first impressions make it look like WoW, Allods Online, kiddie mmos like Wizard 101, or even mobile ones. Pretty much the exact opposite of what most of your old school EQ/Vanguard audience wants.
I hope we don't go from dark, spooky, gritty looking dungeons like this to ones like this.
With the recent Pre Alpha sessions the game seemed to be going in such a great direction.
It was very enjoyable to play, crafting aside (tedious, clunky) they were getting everything right.
Then this disaster.
This Disneyfication of Pantheon is a total betrayal of everyone who has supported your game for the past 10 years.
Best of luck with your "broader, more contemporary audience".
What a shameless cash-grab sell out that will backfire so hard and fast.
Im out
I don't really buy the "performance" argument. In the streams I've seen, the game seemed to run pretty well already, and better performance was to be expected by further optimizations down the road. Of course, a simpler texture style may also help, but I think this is not the main point why they changed the style.
That would rather be speed of creation. I can very well imagine how much effort it is to create a realistic armor set for example: Every single piece has to be carefully created by hand and added to the model. If instead an artist can create such an item by drawing a complete texture for it, then I believe this should speed up creation of items and areas considerably. The upcoming streams will hopefully highlight how the creation process benefits from this change. I also want to hear what this means for the areas that were already shown (like Faerthale)...will these have to be redone completely? Or will they "only" receive a texture change?
Final thought: While I agree with what was said above "Why do they come up with this NOW, years after the project started?", I think we also need to keep in mind that the game is still in pre-alpha state. NOTHING is set in stone yet...everything can change completely. But VR needs to really manage expectations carefully, or they may lose a lot of disappointed pledgers.
Ranarius said:
What did you think of the screenshots?
I typically lean towards more mature feeling and looking games. From what has been shown so far, the new aesthetic feels more appealing to a younger audience. Not my cup of tea. But not a deal breaker, especially considering the tradeoff.
We'll see how this aspect unfolds since there aren't a lot of new screenshots to chew on yet.
IMO:
From Wikipedia:
"
Visionary Realms also began prototyping their gameplay in the Unity engine using purchased Unity store art assets as "this allows the world builders to lay out intricate and challenging dungeons without having to create art assets themselves or wait for a 3D modeler to create them."[33]
"
From this site:
" They are using World Machine along with other tools that work well with our engine, which is Unity 3D. Using this tech and tools has rapidly accelerated development in many ways. Ultimately what it allows us to do is to build the game in the sequence and order that makes sense from an MMO development standpoint. In 1996 when we started work on EverQuest, this was not possible. In 2002 when we began work on Vanguard, this was not possible. In the past much of the team was gated much of the time. MMO projects would begin with lots of discussion and documentation, usually far more than what was truly beneficial, because the designers and artists we're waiting for and gated by programming.
...
Today, in 2014, that's all changed. With Unity and all of the plug-ins and tools and tech you can rapidly get to the point where you are really working on the true game itself.
...
We have the unity store where we can purchase already made art assets. Are we going to ship the game full of purchased assets? Of course not. But, and this is key, the world builder is not gated by the art team, waiting on assets to be created in Maya so he or she can then plug them into their zone. In fact, even though the funding is not there to hire those artists yet, the world builders can proceed and make measurable forward progress.
...
We need money to buy tools and plug-ins and servers and Unity licenses.
...
Under this plan and with this tech I have hopefully explained why using Unity and the Unity Store is so key to our development plan and the sequence and order within that plan. To be clear, you are going to see a lot of store bought assets in the movies and screenshots probably up until the last year or so of development. This allows the world builders to lay out intricate and challenging dungeons without having to create art assets themselves or wait for a 3d modeler to create them in Maya.
"
So, has Unity been a net benefit or a net deficit? Visionary Realms had to create VINL to even attempt an MMO in Unity. And now they're going to have to custom create all the art, 9.5 years later. Why is performance an issue in Pantheon when games like Elden Ring, HZD, Skyrim, FO4, NMS, and many, many others, have solved the problem of performance within their games, and from the client viewport perspective, are VASTLY more complex in every measurable way than anything Pantheon will ever have? What's the secret? Performing all your primary thread tasks between rendering frames. Which you need an Enterprise Unity license to do, if you have the coders that understand the actual problem and can fix it.
Those games did it. Hundreds of games have done it. They use whatever art assets they want, because they have the headroom in their engine. It's not the hardware. It's not CPU, Memory, Disk, GPU or anything related to that. Some very very popular -ported- AAA 3D games from consoles use less than 10% of a 1060, or even a 1030, in some cases! They maintain 60 FPS and are absolutely stunning, gorgeous, and beautiful. It's not the hardware.
Here's my opinion, so it's clear: Unity was a bad choice. It was a bad choice in 2014, and it will be a bad choice in 2024. That engine needs so much customization to perform not-as-well as any other that it's not worth it. Great for tech demos, terrible for production. It would have been better to create a custom engine from scratch, or use an engine that could be modified to suit the needs of an MMO rather than use Unity.
For me, this latest change pushes the timeline so far ahead there might as well not even be a timeline. The rate of art asset & zone creation of this team is so slow, I cannot imagine a time when they will have all the assets done "enough" that they could launch. So, if you're considering writing or building your own MMO? Use ANYTHING but Unity. That's what the past 9.5 years of watching this project has taught me.
They've already made their money from us that have pledged(no refunds), they probably do not care if we decide to not support the game anymore. Sorry @lotuss79. I recently watched the Asmongold video on youtube of him reviewing the NathanNapalm's video of Pantheon. Such a bad video and it is 11 months old he has no idea what he is even reacting to, but that video got 283K views, which is substantially higher than any video ever made by Pantheon or Pantheon's content creators by hundreds of thousands!
Now, say what you will about Asmongold. His audience is MUCH younger. Mostly children, honestly. But that kind of publicity is something that VR cannot overlook. They should overlook it in my opinion.
With this Art Direction it seems like they want to appeal to more of that kind of audience. Whether that be from their partners telling them to do so or if they are trying to mainstream the game. Is Pantheon drifting toward greed?
Someone from the team please tell me i'm wrong.
Quite a lot of response on this topic - not shockingly.
The consensus view seems to be somewhere between "this is bad but let us see how it plays out - better a worse looking game than none at all" to "Calamitous disaster".
A nod to Deathstroke for an excellently written response. Probably representing the majority view of forum junkies.
If this is necessary to get a possibly successful game to release in less than the half-life of the universe ..... then it is the right decision. A "contemporary" looking game with a few of the features Brad planned on may still be an improvement over what is out there now. But the best case scenario is now bleaker and the worst case scenario is now more likely. I fear that Deathstroke may be more prescient than I would like with:
"Thus, we bid adieu to the last vestige of hope that was Pantheon, the last ember of a once-promising blaze, now but a wistful memory in the annals of gaming lore."
Savanja said:I've added the most recent screenshot in the new art style on the media page.
Thank you. I really like that style. Looks fantastic. This also helps in the rate of art development too? Fantastic again. This game is progressing well. Hope everyone had a nice summer, a few trips, time with the kids and family.
Best of luck.
Valorous1 said:They've already made their money from us that have pledged(no refunds), they probably do not care if we decide to not support the game anymore. Sorry @lotuss79. I recently watched the Asmongold video on youtube of him reviewing the NathanNapalm's video of Pantheon. Such a bad video and it is 11 months old he has no idea what he is even reacting to, but that video got 283K views, which is substantially higher than any video ever made by Pantheon or Pantheon's content creators by hundreds of thousands!
Now, say what you will about Asmongold. His audience is MUCH younger. Mostly children, honestly. But that kind of publicity is something that VR cannot overlook. They should overlook it in my opinion.
With this Art Direction it seems like they want to appeal to more of that kind of audience. Whether that be from their partners telling them to do so or if they are trying to mainstream the game. Is Pantheon drifting toward greed?
Someone from the team please tell me i'm wrong.
I agree completely with your reasoning. I just think its a terrible decision on their part.
To abandon the supporters who go them here in favor of an 'exiting new younger demo!' is so unbelievably short sighted.
The supporters of this game would have played it for years and years. The new player base they're targeting will play it for 3-4 months then get distracted by the next shiny new object and bail on them.
They should have 20,000 dedicated long term players instead of trying to entice 200,000 short term, fickle gamers who won't stick around.
But its total greed. They have $'s in their eyes and the original vision of this game (the one they sold to us) is no longer good enough for them.
BTW, the art direction is just the first change. Theres no way it stops there.
Next will be speeding up the pace of combat, and every sword swing etc will be a freeking pyrotechnics show so their broader, more contemporary audience can run around spamming the attack button for a few minutes.
They have no fidelity to the spirit of the game.
Anyone sticking around will have to watch them closely, and push back hard, because they will bastardize the game as much as they think they can get away with to maximize player base/profit in the (Very) short term.
I'm here for the ride regardless, art assets are less important than gameplay loops to me.
Realistic models don't age well, and with the speed of release it would have looked even worse once it was out. Stylized artwork looks better for much longer and is probably easier on the artists.
With all that said, I'm fine with it. I don't think the game is dead as long as they stay true to the spirit of the gameplay. For a small team I think it was probably the right choice.
Looking forward to more updates and hopefully with the 24/7 pre alpha realms the speed of development will significantly increase.
-----------So, has Unity been a net benefit or a net deficit? Visionary Realms had to create VINL to even attempt an MMO in Unity. And now they're going to have to custom create all the art, 9.5 years later. Why is performance an issue in Pantheon when games like Elden Ring, HZD, Skyrim, FO4, NMS, and many, many others, have solved the problem of performance within their games, and from the client viewport perspective, are VASTLY more complex in every measurable way than anything Pantheon will ever have? What's the secret? Performing all your primary thread tasks between rendering frames. Which you need an Enterprise Unity license to do, if you have the coders that understand the actual problem and can fix it.
Those games did it. Hundreds of games have done it. They use whatever art assets they want, because they have the headroom in their engine. It's not the hardware. It's not CPU, Memory, Disk, GPU or anything related to that. Some very very popular -ported- AAA 3D games from consoles use less than 10% of a 1060, or even a 1030, in some cases! They maintain 60 FPS and are absolutely stunning, gorgeous, and beautiful. It's not the hardware.-------------
It always interesting to me when folks who were here from the beginning or near the beginning constantly ignore very important facts to paint a narrative. ALL the games you mentioned started off with MILLIONS of dollars to hire a FULL time staff. a staff which included professional programmers and project managers who were able to design a game, implement that design and iterate upon that design to release.
The foundations of Pantheon's beginnings started off with a FAILED Kickstarter, volunteers and NO MONEY. The FACT that folks,(who consistently criticize in various ways and ignore that important fact) keep ignoring the most important aspect of forming a company and designing an MMO of this cope borders on/to actually being disingenuous rhetoric. The game was built on faulty and temporary coding in order to produce a proof of concept. That coding was continued until it caused the refactor. "The secret" is having a DEDICATED, FULL TIME team to design your game from the very beginning....and the resources to facilitate that. Which did not exist with Pantheon.
I don't understand why we keep spinning in circles trying to figure why Pantheon exits in the state it's in now when EVERYTHING we need to know about it is available to us. MONEY has been the primary and almost exclusive reason why most to all of Pantheon's problems exist.
VR was literally scraping things together and flying by the seat of their pants back then. It was only through grit and perseverance that Pantheon exists today. Not becasue of a solid foundation and resources.
--------Here's my opinion, so it's clear: Unity was a bad choice. It was a bad choice in 2014, and it will be a bad choice in 2024. That engine needs so much customization to perform not-as-well as any other that it's not worth it. Great for tech demos, terrible for production. It would have been better to create a custom engine from scratch, or use an engine that could be modified to suit the needs of an MMO rather than use Unity.---------
Which engine existed at that time that would allow a crowdfunded studio with no money and volunteers to use to make an MMO? Unreal's asset store was nowhere near as fleshed out and available as Unity's was in 2014. I was dabbling in Unity at the time and Unreal's store back then was extremely sparse to almost nonexistent while Unity's store was very full of free assets and plug-ins. There was no free(like Unity) engine out there on Unity's level for indie studios to use.
If VR had money then the choices would've been available, but they did not. Other studios had money and backing from major studios so choosing an engine or making their own was never a concern.
Moreover, not having money to pay full time and dedicated programmers made creating they own engine from scratch impossible. Brad was not a programmer, so thinking a volunteer not as invested would be able to do all the things you said is not realistic.
EDIT: Pantheon was announced in January 2014(which means that it's planning was in 2013). Unreal 4's public program and availability wasn't announced until September of that year and available in December.
------------For me, this latest change pushes the timeline so far ahead there might as well not even be a timeline. The rate of art asset & zone creation of this team is so slow, I cannot imagine a time when they will have all the assets done "enough" that they could launch. So, if you're considering writing or building your own MMO? Use ANYTHING but Unity. That's what the past 9.5 years of watching this project has taught me.-------------
I'll go along with this. But, Unity is still being used by most indie companies with small staffs and little to no money. There's a big difference between what big studios can do with Unreal vs what small studios with little to no money can do with Unreal or any other engine. especailly if they don't have a dedicated full time programmers.
