Joppa — 01/22/2021 11:32 AM
I'll bite - I'm honestly curious in what ways people think Pantheon's direction has changed since Brad's death. I'm not saying it has or hasn't, just curious what people would point to.
I'll be honest, this new art style looks far more like the concept art in the first place. It baffles me that people complain about it, when there has been nothing but large praise for the concept art for classes and races. Having said that, I've been following this project since the Kickstarter and I have the receipts to prove it. However all that aside, I don't know of anyone on the original kickstarter or otherwise that backed this project for a specific art style considering there was no specific art style during the kickstarter, we had incredibly loose concept art of areas and that's about it. Has there been a lot of folks back it after the Kickstarter? Sure, but the lion's share of people haven't had one cross word for the concept art, now when the art style leans into it people wanna start the doom and gloom.
I don't think that's the issue, I think folks are just worried and frustrated that after almost a decade the game still isn't out and more "change" even if it isn't change in the first place is reminding people how long they've been waiting. The game isn't even in Alpha, a drastic art shift happens fairly often in any game during that phase. Not trying to act like a game developer, but you can look up alpha and beta screenshots of tons of games to prove that point. I started playing MMOs with EQ1 shortly before PoP so I'm fairly old school myself. I've learned to appreciate styles from EQ to WoW to FFXIV. Having said that, I'll be honest; the art style for Vanguard always looked like beta test dog water, and never full lived up to the concept art and even screenshots from development. It just didn't. Pantheon trending in that direction always made me nervous and them shifting into a somewhat new (yet not new) direction closer to the concept art renews me with hope that A.) this game will appeal to enough folks to keep it alive when it does come out. B.) They're smart and wise enough to be flexible. C.) Lastly Brad was ALWAYS flexible. From changing his mind on racial cities to many more things.
Pantheon has never been and still isn't set in stone. If you've waited this long for grey box streams and asset filled videos, you can bloody well wait another few years and see what they can do with these new artists who are hard at work making actual legit animations and art for the game you've been waiting almost a decade on. You've waited this long, you've trusted Joppa and the team (who still want to finish it for Brad) you can stand to be a little more patient and see what they're doing. Besides, Joppa knows a lot better than anyone else here what Brad's vision was and it seems they became very close before his passing. Joppa quite possibly wants this to be Brad's MMO probably more than anyone living or otherwise. Let's all chill out, let the professionals do some work, and see what comes of this and just let yourself be surprised. Take another look at the concept art in the classes and races. If what you see meets with your approval, then I'd ask that you just say "okay...fair enough, let's wait and see.". You don't have to agree with it, but unless you hate the concept art (and if so why on earth did you back the project?!) you should be, at best positive about this "change" and at least open to it. ✌
It also baffles me that we have seen one environment shot and one animal shot and people are screaming its all doom and gloom (unless others have seen more, in which case, link).
On what I have seen:
Environment: To me, it looks full and lush and painted (as VR said). The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it will never appeal to everyone. For me, it looks good... so far.
Oggrym: To me it looks cartoony but it does look painted. But until I see it in the environment, I think I will leave it at that.
How can anyone extrapolate on two static screen shots? This is a game. We need to see the art in action to form any real opinion. What will it be like in sun, night, rain, snow? Will the framerate benefit hugely? Will the NPCS, fauna and flora fit with the new direction? At this point, we just dont know.
What I would say is that this announcement should have been accompanied with a full breakdown of what it means. Not a "by the way" kind of thing they did. I mean, it is obvious that people were going to jump on this and shout all kinds of doom and gloom. But VR did drop this bomb on us which means we need to have (even more) patience and see where this new art direction take us. Then we can really let loose on what we think. I have seen two screen shots! Its like saying the Mona Lisa is a terrible piece of work when you have an image of the bridge and a mountain. You do not get the full work! And until you do, such opinions are meaningless (mine included).
I agree that the artwork should have been set in stone by now, however, if performance is as bad as they say, then a change was needed.
Until we see the artwork in action, we cannot definitely say it is good or bad. We just (yet again) dont know!
One further point: people have been shouting for the game to get to alpha; surely anything that speeds this process up is a good thing; as long as the quality is there.
Sortis said:The game isn't even in Alpha, a drastic art shift happens fairly often in any game during that phase. Not trying to act like a game developer, but you can look up alpha and beta screenshots of tons of games to prove that point. I started playing MMOs with EQ1 shortly before PoP so I'm fairly old school myself.
Afaik though none appeared to be a step backwards unless expansions count (Luclin models).
Sortis said:C.) Lastly Brad was ALWAYS flexible. From changing his mind on racial cities to many more things.
More than likely McQuaid, having learned from trying to accomplish too much with Vanguard, would have taken similar measures sooner rather than later. That said, judging by the art direction of classic EQ and then Vanguard, what's been shown doesn't give off the same vibes. More examples are needed, but that's no fault of the community's. The reveal needed to provide a lot more after this long wait, giving everyone a better idea of "the vision" and what to expect in the months ahead. Instead, two screenshots.
Sortis said:Take another look at the concept art in the classes and races.
I admit that what they showed in terms of art did not bother me. Not at all. What they *said* bothered me in terms of looking to go in a new direction and focus on a "contemporary" look.
Some of you equate the newer art (what very little we have seen) to some of what we saw many years ago. I do not disagree and had they not said, in effect, "we are going in a new direction and trying to appeal to contemporary audiences not old-school audiences" I would have shrugged it all off as just another of the many shifts that any experienced person expects during pre-alpha.
I'm similar to dorotea here as in I have 2 comments in this thread already but they address the change of direction from appealing to old school to appealing to a more contemporary crowd. THATS my issue! To Joppa about ways it has changed from Brads vision....there's another among many, little at a time! Appealing to a larger crowd instead of old school and old school wasn't realistic graphic.
I'll now address my feelings on the graphics. I like the change. Years ago there was a thread on the graphic style and I promoted cartoonish then as opposed to realistic. I don't believe realistic can be achieved (without a huge team and mega$$$) so why set themselves up to fail. Realistic char faces are just damn creepy!
change the graphics? fine. Change the target audience? Not so fine.
------Marketability – One of the top comments we routinely receive from the public is how the game looks old or unappealing. This is an opportunity to reach a broader, more contemporary audience.------
I don't understand why folks don't use the entire "Marketability" quote and only use part of it to make some unfounded narrative. It really is troubling. Noone is commenting on how the first sentence relates to the second. Noone is relating that quote to what VR has been saying for awhile now. They don't want to be seen as a game for JUST a particular demographic(even if the game is an old school one). Marketing ONLY to 'old school' gamers is limiting and they want EVERYONE to at least TRY our game.
Don't you folks feel everyone should at least try EQ? They may not all like it, but wouldn't it be great for folks interested in games and MMOS to try what you consider the BEST old school MMO? Update the graphics using Unreal 5. NO CHANGES other than that one.
NOWHERE in the above did I incude ANY changes to EQ's gameplay, death penalty and such. I simply stated that everyone should at least give the game a chance with an update look.
When Pantheon is released are we only going to tell out friends that played EQ to try the game if VR delivers a gaood game? Or, are we going to tell everyone who likes MMOS, adventure, lore, class identity and such in the gaming sphere to try Pantheon? I'm telling my D&D crew that has never played an MMO. I'm telling my associates at work whose looking for something different. Anyone who I think would be interested. That is what VR wants to do.
FACT: folks have been trashing how Pantheon looks and have been doing so relentlessly. We ALL know that fact. Even if the game was released looking like the best screen shot or 'look' we have seen for Pantheon(like Project Faethale for example), folks STILL said it will look 10 years outdated. Again, I encourage folks to STOP using partial comments to paint a narrative when the entire comment should be looked at for more wholistic clarity.
Using a stylized look will help to solve the problem of the game looking 10+ years old if it was to use 'realistic' graphics. In addition, more folks will show interest in the game(even if they end up not liking it, they will at least try it.)
Since some of you want to make up your own interpretation of what VR means then consider this one whcih takes into account BOTH sentences and not just the latter one so many are focusing on:
"We want to make the same game with the same tenents that we have been CONSISTENTLY upholding. The tenents, gameplay, lore, and all the other aspects of Pantheon that you have loved and looked forward to will REMAIN THE SAME. But, we don't want to Pantheon to be played only by the old school players. The exploration, strategic gameplay, lore, and class identity are things we STRONGLY FEEL will appeal to EVERYONE who want to play a QUALITY game like Pantheon. So we will market our SAME GAME THAT YOU ALREADY KNOW AND LOVE to more players outside of the normal target market. The new art direction will help to make our game appealing to more folks and help to qwell the unfair negativity that reduces our game to just 'a dated game that looks like it was made 10+ years ago.'"
"Some will try and not like and some will like and stay awhile. The main difference is that the more people that try our game the more that will end of liking it and thus, help VR to become finanacially viable so we can continue to develop this game, make expansions and hire and keep a decent and dedicated staff."
How is any of that a "betrayal" or "selling out" or "changing what the game is?" Their decision adresses multiple things not just the one some of you are ONLY focusing on. They have to make short and longterm decisions and balance that with the tenents, the community, address the countless negativity thrown at them relentlessly, their time of investment over these years and a LOT of other things. NOT just the one thing some of you want to focus on.
I just ask that you all be fair and balanced in your critique and take more into consideration when you do critique.
I am fine with the new art direction if they keep texture sizes and poly counts high enough for all the needed details.
In a few years people are used to see all the realistic looking Unreal 5 (or even 6) games which would make this game even look more outdated.
A cartoonish artstyle is almost timeless and would help the game from a visual point of view.
VR, I just want thank you for all of your hard work and please don't let the haters and frustration get to you. I have been following Pantheon since 2015 and backed it in 2019. I won't lie, it is concerning that the game still hasn't released or even in a beta state but I won't pretend to know what all goes into game design and development. You guys took up a huge endeavor for a indie development team and I respect you for that. I do hope you will get to a point in the near future where you will have enough playable content to release an early access build on Steam or whatnot. A plus would be giving backers free access and non-backers could pay like 20-30 dollars for access. Just an idea but just know there are those that still believe in your vision and can't wait to see more!
- A humble Archai monk :)
I'm really not digging the art direction chosen. It seems Wowish, especially the bear in the Producer Newsletter, which doesn't really fit my taste. That on top of re-doing again the same things that were done the last few years...
That won't be the sole factor, but broader audience, cartoonish art direction, doesn't raise my interest much more. Let's see how time unfolds things.
If you want to produce a realistic looking game now you have to use Unreal 5.x.
Its simple as that.
If you try to do that with Unity you will fail. They already have issues with performance and the game looks not even close to what an Unreal based game would look like. Changing the engine is no option either, they are way too far in development.
Keeping the artstyle would confront them with all the Unreal based games which would make the game look very, very bad in comparison.
Basically the only solution is to change the artstyle and this is exactly what they did.
Now the game just has to look better than WoW (which shouldnt be that hard) and its up to date again.
I think Brad would have been upset with the art direction the game has now taken. Ah well. Will still try the game of course, just now I need a lot more evidence of the game itself. just been a lot of changes over the years that you begin to wonder "when" will this game come out and "what" is currently done to show for it.
I have followed Pantheon’s development since 2016. I rarely post on the forums, but I have watched every single video and read every single newsletter and article put out by the Development Team over the past 7 years. I humbly ask our devoted and loyal community members this simple question – Do you want Pantheon to succeed? It is as easy as this one question. There need be no explanations after you answer this question to yourself. Yes, the game’s graphics have shifted. Yes, the development has been painfully slow. Yes, impactful decisions made by the Development Team do not always align with our expectations and that can be frustrating for us.
I see the frustrations, and I share in them with the majority of you. However, the reality is that these decisions must sometimes be made in order to ensure the future success of the project. Let us all be reminded that this Development Team has persevered through and extremely difficult, seemingly impossible path throughout development. Failed kickstarter, loss of the lead designer, HDRP development, custom network VINYL development and implementation, complete refactor of assets, under funded, under staffed, constant criticism, slow development, negativity, and allegations of cash grabbing yet, they still press forward.
No decision – especially one as impactful as another overhaul to the art style is made lightly or without great consideration to the impact of this game’s success and the commitment to its backers. I would venture to assume that few community members have ever managed a multi-year, multi-million dollar development project. Those that have can likely relate to the position the VR team finds themselves in. I know I can. I have been in this position before myself trying to balance expectations with reality, manage a budget and deliver a product to investors or owners while maintaining a timeline. All decisions must be weighed. Although mine was in a construction industry project, the facts remain the same. Flexibility, forward thinking, and adaptability are a must in order to be successful on such a large and long term development. Visionary Realms has shown nothing less than an extraordinary ability to persevere and adapt through insurmountable setbacks.
The development team obviously wants this game to succeed, and I understand that this is why such a decision was made. I personally do no not like the graphics shown thus far either. I’m with the majority of you all on that. However, when I ask myself the question – Do I want this game to succeed? The answer is yes. I truly believe that with Visionary Realms demonstrated resilience, they are making this difficult decision because they are passionate and believe that it is a necessary change for the game. I trust in their decision making ability and know that they will continue to march forward to bring Pantheon into existence for us all to enjoy.
Although I dislike what has been presented thus far, I understand and respect that the decision was not made easily. I am still looking forward to seeing a more robust and accurate depiction of the new direction you all have chosen for the art style.
Thank you VR Team – for your continued dedication to making this game become a reality.
Avaen said: Love the new screenshots posted in Discord! I like the new direction the art is going, feels more timeless. ❤️ https://www.pantheonmmo.com/#images-1
Ditto! It's definitely clean looking and I prefer it that way. I was never huge on realistic graphics to begin with, it nevér added more immersion for me or anything personally
That new discord shot is...bleh. But I do think you should show more regardless, if not just for the fans of it. I do think that people who think that only the art style change is the only change going to happen are being naive. I just don't see how the games core mesh with that art style. They already have the people interested in a tougher slower MMO, have already espoused interest in a newer contemporary base, two which usually don't mesh well. I will be legit shocked if when this launches it has not been modified on the tenets level.
But, as I said, I already spent $250 on this so I will at least try it for the 3 month sub that comes with it (I think it does? haven't checked in a while). If that doesn't work then I will hope for M&M, and if that fails I will stay with my SP games like I have for the last decade. I should note that this will probably directly cause me to be hesitant to back future MMOs (directly your fault VR), $250 isn't going to kill me, but it still means something to me.
Avaen said: Love the new screenshots posted in Discord! I like the new direction the art is going, feels more timeless. ❤️ https://www.pantheonmmo.com/#images-1
https://scentofagamer.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/diterlizzi_elvishranger.jpg
I don't know if there is anyway to soften the texture or lightning to make it look more paint like. The armor looks FANTASTIC.
Is there anyway to soften his hair a bit, make it look less plastic and toyish? If there is anyway to reduce that kind of plastic/toyish look on his skin and more smoother paint look, that would be something else.
https://scentofagamer.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/diterlizzi_songofserenity.jpg
I would be much less critical of the decision to change art style if the new painted art style was closer to this:
![[005]20230511_OggrymIce(PREVIEW).png](https://pantheonmmo.com/wp-content/uploads/pan-media/live/concepts/%5B005%5D20230511_OggrymIce(PREVIEW).png)
Instead of this:
Is the concept art considered realism style? Would my issue be I don't understand the definitions? Is realism style then art with attention to detail and painted art style this bland Disney looking cartoon creation above?
I do see one silver lining. The 2nd pic looks like something a high school art student could produce in about 30 minutes. So, if this is the art the team at VR is busy making for the environment, NPC, and PC models. The game should be ready for release in no time. :)
Porsche944TurboS said:I would be much less critical of the decision to change art style if the new painted art style was closer to this:
I definitely understand your point. I just want to add that when they presented this concept art they did mention that this animal could look differently based on where it lives in the world. The concept art is probably from some frozen wastelands. The newest model we see looks like it's probably from some warmer or less harsh.
Hopefully they will add a little more detail on the tree trunks and some grassy groundclutter stuff, but overall it doesn't look bad at all.
The faces definetly look better than the old faces that already looked 10 years outdated. As for the Oggrym, it looks like it needs a little more fine details. Looks a bit unfinished, so hopefully - like the trees - they do a polishing pass later in the development process which I'm sure they will.
Looking forward to more screenshots, hopefully with some of the fauna =D
