Feyshtey said:I defended the development speed.
I defended the changes to the network stack.
I defended the changes to the art pipeline and rendering process.
At this point I've largely checked out of the community here because I struggle to maintain interest at the current glacial pace.
And today I read that because of an inability to optimize, even after all the previous changes, the art is to be revamped. And revamped into more stylized simplified visuals. One might say much like the majority of MMO's catering to a more simplified audience....
You're losing me VR. It's been a really long road. I've been very vocal about a couple of things I didn't like the sound of, and I've reserved judgement on a lot of things I dislike in the mechanics direction, but I'm tetering on the edge or regret here.
I could not have said it better myself. This is almost exactly my sentiment; except I have never been vocal about any change prior. I have been rolling with the punches but this art change might just be a haymaker.
Nine years of presenting what was to most backers an acceptable (and I would argue somewhat endearing) graphical style... to suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere, and in the middle of an announced summer of silence, putting out two screenshots that direct a change towards a painted art style that I’d describe as… childish. What??
Then what followed the screenshots was a highly touted and very poorly presented 5-minute-long video that had more concept art than anything of true substance. The fact the CCO and/or PM were not even in chat for such a big change in direction was a huge failure in my mind.
And for those people saying graphics don't matter... cool. Graphics obviously do matter to many people and it's completely subjective to each person how that manifests. There is also a fundamental difference between the ‘dated’ graphics we have been presented through the history of this crowd funded project and this new painted art style. To each their own, and I hope everyone else loves it, but I find it visually unappealing to the point of distraction. I hope I am dead wrong and can eventually get past it, but I don’t think it will ever grow on me.
If I’m being honest to myself… given the long road thus far, still not having alpha in sight, and now this terrible art change… it has just completely killed any interest I had left in this game. I don’t know if it’s a culmination of everything or specifically the art change, but I've lost all confidence this project will deliver the game I thought I was going to get when I pledged. They might have had no other choice than to make this change, but I’m no longer excited about Pantheon after this announcement… and that sucks.
I get that graphics are important to people but if changing the graphic style meant the game would be more viable, release faster, perform better etc...I think most would be OK with that. Especially, if that happened 5 or 6 years ago. However, the fact that it's happening NOW? Does this change at this time instill any confidence in anyone that this project can release in any reasonable time frame (too late for that)? It really just feels like this project is stringing people along at this point. Really sucks. I so wanted a spiritual successor to EQ but I don't think it's going to happen sadly.
Quoting Rils :
The fact the CCO and/or PM were not even in chat for such a big change in direction was a huge failure in my mind.
So far I have been providing very positive constructive feedback regarding the art itself, but this right here I think more than anything was a big communication flub. In fact, if they said hey look the art change was due to the reasons we listed like efficiency etc., BUT we also want to get your feedback and we will integrate your feedback. I think people would feel much better. I know the screen and video says WORK IN PROGRESS, but communication is key in any relationship : romantic, friend, business and game community etc. The fact that there are CRICKETS without any "Hey look, we can't go back to the realistic artstyle, but we are reading your feedback now and will have more updated graphics (less cartoony, work on the lighting, working on making it more painted less vibrant and WoWish etc.) based on your feedback. We understand many of you would prefer these changes etc", you could quell much of this unrest. No doubt you can tell these art changes are allowing them to crank out all kinds of mobs and content super quickly. BUT having said that too, if they don't make ANY adjustments to this new art style. Then it just doesn't sit too well with me.
Deathstroke said:Though my presence within these digital realms has been a muted one, my gaze has been ensnared by the unfolding narrative of this game over the expanse of time. A vigilant sentinel, I have stood, espousing the game's virtues to my brethren of the joystick, a knight sworn to defend its honor against the cynics who claimed its elusive manifestation would forever evade our grasp.
Yet, like the shadows of twilight descending upon a forlorn landscape, this recent revelation strikes the chord of an elegy within me. The dirge of certainty rings clear – the game, it appears, has embraced the mantle of finality. Even if by some enigmatic providence it dares to emerge from the shadows, I fear it shall do so as a mere specter, a fleeting echo of the grandiose promises that once stirred our souls.
In their communiqué, they speak of a discord with their devoted audience, a yearning to court a new assembly of souls. Alas, I am of the belief that this transmutation will avail them naught. Their dalliance with graphical artifice, while laudable in intent, shall fail to ensnare the very hearts they now seek to captivate. The primordial devotees, those who clung to the tapestry woven with anticipation, shall turn their gaze elsewhere in somber lament.
Gazing upon the glimpses they have chosen to bestow, I am met with a countenance that evokes naught but incredulity. What semblance of promise remains has been obscured by the veils of artful reticence. Methinks they should have adorned this reveal with a panoply of revelations, a veritable treasure trove of substance. I am reminded of the fateful transformation of EQ2, as it forsook the realm of realism for the embrace of caricature. Alas, history shall weave a similar fate for Pantheon, it seems.
The augury before me is clear, unerring in its eloquence. The tale that was to be Pantheon, the harbinger of a new age, now languishes in the sepulcher of aspirations unfulfilled. Let us remember, as the poet whispered, that a picture oft speaks volumes. The images cast forth, the heralds of their intentions, paint a somber tableau of a game relinquished to the realm of oblivion.
Thus, we bid adieu to the last vestige of hope that was Pantheon, the last ember of a once-promising blaze, now but a wistful memory in the annals of gaming lore.
I just wanted to say thank you for that wonderful prose sir.
Greldon: Nine years ago, an exotic seed was planted. ...It's just the skin...
Yeah. Feels like I was promised an Oak tree and got a Dogwood.
It maybe "just the skin", but this is the interface between the real world and Terminus. It makes or breaks immersion. It is the thing that draws you into the game or jars you out. Yes, I totally agree that game play is key and the most important thing, however, the graphics you use and view, also make or break a game. These days, a great game needs good graphics to have longevity.
Yes, these are subjective to the viewer. But they matter.
EQBallzz: I get that graphics are important to people but if changing the graphic style meant the game would be more viable, release faster, perform better
I have not seen any evidence to suggest there was a big problem with performance. I understand the argument to release faster, however, it seems they now have to rebuild every model in the game? How can this be faster to release? And as for the style! I bought into the game just after the kick starter, buying into the look and idea that was presented to me at that time. Not these fluffy things. I do not accept that you cannot have a realistic model that performs well and is just as easy to create as the fluffy wolf we saw.
Honestly? I think it is a cynical move to appeal to a greater audience and the "speed issue" is an excuse. Honestly? I feel a little betrayed by the way this has been handled and delivered and how the fall out is being totally ignored by VR. This matters. But it seems not as much to VR. I have supported this game all the way through from first encountering it, being vocal, agreeing, disagreeing, helping in the little way I could. ALL the way through, there has been dialiogue, reasoning, thought provoking discussions. Now, with one of the biggest changes in direction we have seen, we get absolutely nothing! Not good enough, VR. Not by a long way.
Being by yourself it may not be a performance issue, but if you get a raid of 40?ish (I forget the raid size) together attacking the same target, possibly with another group waiting for the first to screw up it may become a problem.
Personally when they talk about performance issues I'm assuming there was some internal testing with bots or something to gauge the performance of a high density of players that proved to be a issue.
They may also want it to run on a potato so that a lot of people can play it.
Who knows what the issue is, but I don't think they lied to us about the performance problems. It would have been easy enough to say they did it to get the game out before EQ3 comes out and most would understand. I don't think it is a coincidence that they announced it around the same time EQ3(or whatever unnamed EQ franchise title they use) tentative timeline was announced since that would directly take away from their target audience.
chenzeme said:I have not seen any evidence to suggest there was a big problem with performance. I understand the argument to release faster, however, it seems they now have to rebuild every model in the game? How can this be faster to release?
I wasn't saying there was any evidence of those things. I was merely pointing out that if there was a good reason for it I think fans/backers would have been more understanding for that had this change occurred 5 years ago as opposed to 10+ years into the project. At this point it almost doesn't matter what the reason is because even if it's a valid reason the fact that it's happening at such a late stage is just more troubling evidence of the poor state of this project.
Nexira said:Being by yourself it may not be a performance issue, but if you get a raid of 40?ish (I forget the raid size) together attacking the same target, possibly with another group waiting for the first to screw up it may become a problem.
Personally when they talk about performance issues I'm assuming there was some internal testing with bots or something to gauge the performance of a high density of players that proved to be a issue.
They may also want it to run on a potato so that a lot of people can play it.
Who knows what the issue is, but I don't think they lied to us about the performance problems. It would have been easy enough to say they did it to get the game out before EQ3 comes out and most would understand. I don't think it is a coincidence that they announced it around the same time EQ3(or whatever unnamed EQ franchise title they use) tentative timeline was announced since that would directly take away from their target audience.
Chenzeme is absolutely right. This is not about performance.
When they were touting ViNL, they were saying they can now scale how ever many thousand players in a zone at one time and it will enable raids etc.
Also keep in mind that by the time this game is release, the most basic 'potato' of PCs will be able to handle it. It will only get easier.
This is all about cutting loose the player base that got them here in favor of what they Think will be a larger player base of younger gamers.
The short sighted greed will most certainly come back to bite them when 95% of that new player base leaves shortly after release, and the serious customers who they have alienated are not coming back to these graphics.
Its really a shame.
I hope no one actually believes changing the art 10 years into a project will save them time or money. This was clearly done for performance sake and I don't blame them, except for how long it took to make the decision. The issue is the released art looks very similar to the most overcopied game of all time, WoW. Pull inspiration from somewhere, no ANYWHERE else. Pantheon devs are way too influenced by WoW in general, they should do some research on how many of these WoW clones succeeded. The bright happy disney graphics do not belong in the serious MMO that Pantheon is trying to be. You can go cartoon and still be gritty and dark. The original Berserk anime does this well.
lotuss79 said:
When they were touting ViNL, they were saying they can now scale how ever many thousand players in a zone at one time and it will enable raids etc.
They also said finishing that would have a "cascading effect" on the path to alpha and that has pretty much gone dark. I think they also said thats when the pet classes were going to be introduced and we haven't seen one of those either.
It is much more likely IMO that something came up unexpectedly with performance and they had to pivot.
Players, pets, raids, who knows. Unless someone here is working on the project itself and wants to spill the beans, we will probably never know the exact problem. A lot are hurt/betrayed by the change and there is nothing wrong with that, but saying VR did it just to be d***s and sellout their player base is a bit much.
It seems obvious it was done for speed as well, but that speed is probably because they needed to overcome a performance problem that was slowing down their progress. When they made the change, they did it with something they thought would appeal to a broader audience. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Nexira said:lotuss79 said:
When they were touting ViNL, they were saying they can now scale how ever many thousand players in a zone at one time and it will enable raids etc.
They also said finishing that would have a "cascading effect" on the path to alpha and that has pretty much gone dark. I think they also said thats when the pet classes were going to be introduced and we haven't seen one of those either.
It is very unlikely they are trying to maliciously get rid of their original player base. It is much more likely IMO that something came up unexpectedly with performance and they had to pivot.
Players, pets, raids, who knows. Unless someone here is working on the project itself and wants to spill the beans, we will probably never know the exact problem. A lot are hurt/betrayed by the change and there is nothing wrong with that, but saying VR did it just to be d***s and sellout their player base is a bit much.
It seems obvious it was done for speed as well, but that speed is probably because they needed to overcome a performance problem that was slowing down their progress. When they made the change, they did it with something they thought would appeal to a broader audience. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Im not saying they Wanted to cut loose a portion of their player base, im saying they made a calculated decision that they could use X number of players, but gain X+ number of new players who like this sort of cartoon art style.
And in the very short term they are probably right. But long term this decision will doom the game.
As for any legitimate performance reasons, they could just cap out the resolution and settings a little bit lower at launch leaving room to raise them later. But again, its so clearly not a performance issue.
They may not be mutually exclusive, but its not even close to 50/50 either.
They are adamant on not releasing an unpolished game. Heck, alpha pledgers can't even get into it because it is not polished enough even though it is obviously playable. Why would they want to release it with a low resolution low graphics bandaid? That goes against everything they have said up until this point.
They literally finished redoing the humans in sept '22, fixed the rigging, made it easier for armor to be applied to multiple races, customizations, and had started on the Dark Myr. In theory, with all that streamlining, character development would have increased exponentially. They probably could have had all the races done and multiple pieces of armor fitting each race.
In reality, the way they could reach a larger audience is to release the darn game. If their original realistic graphics would have made that possible they wouldn't have changed it. Once they release the game they gauge how many are playing, listen to their feedback about gameplay, and possibly change things from there while getting paid. Their #1 priority is to have a game for people to play, they aren't backed by someone with deep pockets. Changing things to slow them down is not in their best interests.
There is also no reason to scrap all that work in the old style if it was working for them and there were absolutely no other problems. *High quality* realistic graphics would also attract a larger audience. It was just not up to the standards of today's expectations. Why couldn't they get there? Probably performance issues as they stated.
Overall my point is there is no reason to change it if it was working for them, it is not like people in all stages of life wouldn't love realistic graphics.
This is what happens when game devs initially court a very small but vocal minority of players that want a very niche game. They bang their chests making all kinds of noise when you make design changes that will actually make the game popular. I think there is ample evidence from other games that as long as you implement this before release it will attract more players and not deter the mass amount of players.
Making changes BEFORE release is the best time, because after release its extremely difficult to turn around a bad 1st impression. None of this squawking is going to matter. The key will be to make solid gameplay, smooth non-buggy game, without lag. That is what will attract the masses.
chenzeme said:These days, a great game needs good graphics to have longevity.
This is not the case with Indie games. When you look at steam there are a number of popular games with very high user reviews with low graphics. This number is even higher when you look at just Indie Dev teams. Good gameplay is the key.
Razorbrains said:This is what happens when game devs initially court a very small but vocal minority of players that want a very niche game. They bang their chests making all kinds of noise when you make design changes that will actually make the game popular. I think there is ample evidence from other games that as long as you implement this before release it will attract more players and not deter the mass amount of players.
Making changes BEFORE release is the best time, because after release its extremely difficult to turn around a bad 1st impression. None of this squawking is going to matter. The key will be to make solid gameplay, smooth non-buggy game, without lag. That is what will attract the masses.
chenzeme said:These days, a great game needs good graphics to have longevity.
This is not the case with Indie games. When you look at steam there are a number of popular games with very high user reviews with low graphics. This number is even higher when you look at just Indie Dev teams. Good gameplay is the key.
The only problem with this is that the game from the very beginning was pitched (specifically by Brad himself) as something that would not attempt to appeal to a mass audience. It had a mission to be a spiritual successor to EQ and Vanguard.
A "very small but vocal minority of players" is, AKA "your core player base".
A smaller number of mature players that will stick with the game long term is so preferable to 1 million kids that will check it out and move on.
They are not building a WoW killer here. Even if they think they have a shot at that. Its just not happening.
They need to be somewhat niche to have any future imo. But time will tell.
And it shouldn't be an either/or with gameplay vs graphics. They both matter quite a lot. Especually when the graphical style is so out of step with type of slow, thoughtfull game mechanics they are (for now) aiming for.
I actually watched twice. With and without audio. I let some time pass inbetween. I wanted to make sure of what I was feeling.
I played EQ in beta, GMed, and played through many many years. I tried to imagine playing EQ with that look. It did not sit right. I do not like the cartoony look as presented!
I am not totally against it, just totally against what I just saw. I personally got the feeling of an older Disneyland animation. Ohh and Disneyland is on my S list atm.
If there was some time spent to adjust the colors (richer and with more depth) I think a fair compromise can be easily reached. If the cartoon feel was drawn back some, the game play, quests, etc as epic as EQ, then I dont see an issue.
This could turn into a "Hanlon's Razor" or not. The developers should take the responses into serious consideration.
I would very much like to see a richer color in action. A few battles with this new artwork but again, not so Disney.
This artwork may look bad with weather conditions.
I do appreciate them trying to find ways to get this game to us sooner.
Just my 2 cents :)
Butcherbob said:I actually watched twice. With and without audio. I let some time pass inbetween. I wanted to make sure of what I was feeling.
I played EQ in beta, GMed, and played through many many years. I tried to imagine playing EQ with that look. It did not sit right. I do not like the cartoony look as presented!
I am not totally against it, just totally against what I just saw. I personally got the feeling of an older Disneyland animation. Ohh and Disneyland is on my S list atm.
If there was some time spent to adjust the colors (richer and with more depth) I think a fair compromise can be easily reached. If the cartoon feel was drawn back some, the game play, quests, etc as epic as EQ, then I dont see an issue.This could turn into a "Hanlon's Razor" or not. The developers should take the responses into serious consideration.
I would very much like to see a richer color in action. A few battles with this new artwork but again, not so Disney.
This artwork may look bad with weather conditions.I do appreciate them trying to find ways to get this game to us sooner.
Just my 2 cents :)
Hopestealer: Fact is that this newer art style will stand the test of time better than the "realistic" visuals.
Subjective at best and I dont agree.
I would like to quote @thewintersteiner who commented on Thereks latest video on P+
"I was so excited when the previous character models were being displayed with armour and animations. Those were the best updates from VR. REMEMBER THE WINK?!"
I do remember that reveal. That model looked great and I seem to remember the artist was very happy people loved the wink. Now someone please tell me, is that model impossible to achive with a painted style? The new human model looks awful. No charme whatsoever.
These are the two styles I'm comparing. I'm not comparing the new style to the Unity assets, but to the above mentioned video with the charming human with the crooked smile and the wink.
