Joppa said:Because of WoW's LAS, there is a meaningful difference between a Restoration Shaman and an Enhancement Shaman. But two Restoration Shaman will be essentially identical. In Pantheon, two Shaman in a group do not have to be identical, even if they are both focused on healing. This is a massive win for addressing the longstanding issue of class redundancy in these games.
So here's the question: please explain, using the information I've provided in the statement above, why you think WoW's LAS works and has led the game to become the gold standard of MMORPG success, but Pantheon's LAS is an inevitable and absurd failure.
Umm, I'm confused about something. Please show me where Pantheon has a Resto Shaman and an Enhancement Shaman because all I see is Shaman. Are you telling me that I can specialize in just healing and my heals will be better than another Shaman that by specializing in healing I somehow have less powerfull buffs?
And are you really really sure that WoW is the gold standard of MMORPH success? And is that really something you want attached to Pantheon? "Hey world, come play Pantheon because we're copying a bunch of WoW ****."
Vandraad said:Joppa said:Because of WoW's LAS, there is a meaningful difference between a Restoration Shaman and an Enhancement Shaman. But two Restoration Shaman will be essentially identical. In Pantheon, two Shaman in a group do not have to be identical, even if they are both focused on healing. This is a massive win for addressing the longstanding issue of class redundancy in these games.
So here's the question: please explain, using the information I've provided in the statement above, why you think WoW's LAS works and has led the game to become the gold standard of MMORPG success, but Pantheon's LAS is an inevitable and absurd failure.
Umm, I'm confused about something. Please show me where Pantheon has a Resto Shaman and an Enhancement Shaman because all I see is Shaman. Are you telling me that I can specialize in just healing and my heals will be better than another Shaman that by specializing in healing I somehow have less powerfull buffs?
And are you really really sure that WoW is the gold standard of MMORPH success? And is that really something you want attached to Pantheon? "Hey world, come play Pantheon because we're copying a bunch of WoW ****."
There will be many flavors of Shaman. You can change your spells to do different things then the base spell. There will be Shaman that will specialize in DPS or Healing or Buffing/Debuffing. You can have 2 Shaman in the team in Pantheon that will fill different rolls. So load out will be different as well on their bars and totally valid.
Playing a Priest in wow classic has been an interesting experience for me. I ended up rolling as a Holy Priest because Priests are one of the best single target healer in classic wow (no hots because buff cap) and (Horde) So Any time I'm playing classic wow besides raiding I loathe being holy spec. While I'm out farming herbs or raid consumes I am holy spec. Yes I have access to a few sub par dps spells, but my spec prevents me from doing more damage. Killing things takes much longer because of my spec (RESTRICTION) I can't use shadow form, I can't use Power Infusion I can't use Mind Flay. All albilites I would like to use, but can't due to my spec. Now even if I'm out of combat, in combat, standing in ORG or even riding the Zep I'm restricted unless I spend 50g to respec to use those abilites. Which I then lose most if not all of my current holy abilities. In Pantheon Your only restriction is in combat.
SO just because I load a few extra heal spells I'm suddenly a Restoration Shaman? That my heals will somehow be stronger because of that? Does simply putting more heals on your action bar suddenly make them stronger? Wow, that's amazing if true. But what if I'm the only priest in a group, and I need to balance my loadout because I need to heal, debuff and maybe toss a DoT, that they are all now less powerful because I'm not 'specialized'?
I think not.
WalkingWaste said:Playing a Priest in wow classic has been an interesting experience for me. I ended up rolling as a Holy Priest because Priests are one of the best single target healer in classic wow (no hots because buff cap) and (Horde) So Any time I'm playing classic wow besides raiding I loathe being holy spec. While I'm out farming herbs or raid consumes I am holy spec. Yes I have access to a few sub par dps spells, but my spec prevents me from doing more damage. Killing things takes much longer because of my spec (RESTRICTION) I can't use shadow form, I can't use Power Infusion I can't use Mind Flay. All albilites I would like to use, but can't due to my spec. Now even if I'm out of combat, in combat, standing in ORG or even riding the Zep I'm restricted unless I spend 50g to respec to use those abilites. Which I then lose most if not all of my current holy abilities. In Pantheon Your only restriction is in combat.
Also your ability points in your Living Codex plays into this. What I gather, unlike WoWs specs that lock you out of abilities. Panthon lets you use all skills but Ability points but will change how you play. Also you will have more freedom in what your want your build to be. So 50% of your ability points into DPS and 50% into healing buffing. Your a Hybrid Shaman. 33% into Buffing, 33% into healing and 33% into Debufffing and yor more like your holly prist. A healer support class that kills things slower. But their is much more options with Pantheons system to date. And each Shaman would have a different load out on their skill bar.
Mordecai said: Not to stray terribly off topic Joppa, but is there a huge reason you guys aren’t for re-memming in combat even with the LAS? Even if day there’s a huge boon to agro once you try to do so? Making it extremely difficult but not impossible .?
He explained in the Bazgrim interview. IIRC Allowing re-memming in a fight like EQ (and accounting for that in a modern game) just becomes greatly added tedium, at that point why bother with LAS.
Exactly @Nanfoodle with the mastery point system there is room for so much more creative play and meaningfull interactions. You can have 2 different shamans with the ability to use the same exact spells as each other, but based on what points they put into those spells they do slightly different things. Allowing for much more diversity in groups than say classic wow where you have a resto druid and a feral druid who don't have the same spells and abilities and both are restricted to play what they can only play based on their spec. and this is with wow's "UAS" or unlimited action bar usage for their spells.
Vandraad said:SO just because I load a few extra heal spells I'm suddenly a Restoration Shaman? That my heals will somehow be stronger because of that? Does simply putting more heals on your action bar suddenly make them stronger? Wow, that's amazing if true. But what if I'm the only priest in a group, and I need to balance my loadout because I need to heal, debuff and maybe toss a DoT, that they are all now less powerful because I'm not 'specialized'?
I think not.
No depending on what you spend your mastery points on allows to you be a restoration shaman. Also If you watch the Pantheon Shaman spotlight I'm sure you'll learn a lot about the LAS, Mastery Point System and Healing.
Im not sure how EQ1 fans are missing whats going on here. EQ1 had less options for load out just because all you had was one bar. In Pantheon you can have up too 4 skill bars. Still limited as each skill bar is for set types of skills. VR is building on that with more depth with the Mastery Points. Again effecting how your char plays by what skills you may choose and what works well with that skill set. EQ1 was always about choosing your rolls in the group. Even Necros played a few different rolls depending on their load out of skills on their hot bar. Pantheon has added more layers and depth to that base system.
WalkingWaste said:Exactly @Nanfoodle with the mastery point system there is room for so much more creative play and meaningfull interactions. You can have 2 different shamans with the ability to use the same exact spells as each other, but based on what points they put into those spells they do slightly different things. Allowing for much more diversity in groups than say classic wow where you have a resto druid and a feral druid who don't have the same spells and abilities and both are restricted to play what they can only play based on their spec. and this is with wow's "UAS" or unlimited action bar usage for their spells.
That isn't really true or aligned with what has been presented thus far as the classes are designed with strong primary functions/roles AND at a certain point all abilities can be mastered. And while leveling if you stray too far from your primary role with your mastery points I can only see it hindering your grouping options. A shaman who "specs" in DPS while leveling (unless design in this game has dramatically changed) is not going to be picked for a DPS slot over a DPS class that is available, they will be a last resort at that point for filling BOTH a DPS and a healing slot.
Iksar said:WalkingWaste said:Exactly @Nanfoodle with the mastery point system there is room for so much more creative play and meaningfull interactions. You can have 2 different shamans with the ability to use the same exact spells as each other, but based on what points they put into those spells they do slightly different things. Allowing for much more diversity in groups than say classic wow where you have a resto druid and a feral druid who don't have the same spells and abilities and both are restricted to play what they can only play based on their spec. and this is with wow's "UAS" or unlimited action bar usage for their spells.
That isn't really true or aligned with what has been presented thus far as the classes are designed with strong primary functions/roles AND at a certain point all abilities can be mastered. And while leveling if you stray too far from your primary role with your mastery points I can only see it hindering your grouping options. A shaman who "specs" in DPS while leveling (unless design in this game has dramatically changed) is not going to be picked for a DPS slot over a DPS class that is available, they will be a last resort at that point for filling BOTH a DPS and a healing slot.
And to take this to the logical conclusion, sooner than later you will have earned enough master to max out all your spells and thus putting everyone back to being exactly the same. So while leveling there will be some divergence, but eventually all will be the same.
Iksar said:WalkingWaste said:Exactly @Nanfoodle with the mastery point system there is room for so much more creative play and meaningfull interactions. You can have 2 different shamans with the ability to use the same exact spells as each other, but based on what points they put into those spells they do slightly different things. Allowing for much more diversity in groups than say classic wow where you have a resto druid and a feral druid who don't have the same spells and abilities and both are restricted to play what they can only play based on their spec. and this is with wow's "UAS" or unlimited action bar usage for their spells.
That isn't really true or aligned with what has been presented thus far as the classes are designed with strong primary functions/roles AND at a certain point all abilities can be mastered. And while leveling if you stray too far from your primary role with your mastery points I can only see it hindering your grouping options. A shaman who "specs" in DPS while leveling (unless design in this game has dramatically changed) is not going to be picked for a DPS slot over a DPS class that is available, they will be a last resort at that point for filling BOTH a DPS and a healing slot.
Thats not really true. That up to VR to decide what rolls classes can be by what they make viable. If Shamans mastery points are speced into DPS and they can do almost as good DPS or as good as other DPS classes. While still adding buffs or debuffs. They may stand out as an awesome DPS option. Just like a Priest in WoW, you hear Preist and think healing. I played Shadow in WoW for PvPing and it rocked. Again, this up to VR to decide whats viable.
Vandraad said:Iksar said:WalkingWaste said:Exactly @Nanfoodle with the mastery point system there is room for so much more creative play and meaningfull interactions. You can have 2 different shamans with the ability to use the same exact spells as each other, but based on what points they put into those spells they do slightly different things. Allowing for much more diversity in groups than say classic wow where you have a resto druid and a feral druid who don't have the same spells and abilities and both are restricted to play what they can only play based on their spec. and this is with wow's "UAS" or unlimited action bar usage for their spells.
That isn't really true or aligned with what has been presented thus far as the classes are designed with strong primary functions/roles AND at a certain point all abilities can be mastered. And while leveling if you stray too far from your primary role with your mastery points I can only see it hindering your grouping options. A shaman who "specs" in DPS while leveling (unless design in this game has dramatically changed) is not going to be picked for a DPS slot over a DPS class that is available, they will be a last resort at that point for filling BOTH a DPS and a healing slot.
And to take this to the logical conclusion, sooner than later you will have earned enough master to max out all your spells and thus putting everyone back to being exactly the same. So while leveling there will be some divergence, but eventually all will be the same.
You cant max everything out. Its limited.
And to take this to the logical conclusion, sooner than later you will have earned enough master to max out all your spells and thus putting everyone back to being exactly the same. So while leveling there will be some divergence, but eventually all will be the same.
I can't remember where it was mentioned, it might have been that Shaman Ability Spotlight video I talked to you about, but Joppa mentions something like it will be extremely difficult to get all of your mastery points for your character so the chances of you running with a player the same class as you who has all his or her mastery points and you also have all of your mastery points will be extremely low. Still allowing for varied group play even with the same classes in the group.
WalkingWaste said:I can't remember where it was mentioned, it might have been that Shaman Ability Spotlight video I talked to you about, but Joppa mentions something like it will be extremely difficult to get all of your mastery points for your character so the chances of you running with a player the same class as you who has all his or her mastery points and you also have all of your mastery points will be extremely low. Still allowing for varied group play even with the same classes in the group.
Extremely difficult does not equate to impossible. And what might be considered extremely difficult for one person would be just a matter of determinate and time for another. Statements like 'extremely difficult' take me back to when CCP Games introduced Titans to EVE Online and claimed that because Titans represented such a extreme committment of resources, skill and time that there would only ever be a handful of them in the game only to see hundreds with 2 years and now mulitple thousands of them makes CCP Games look like fools for that initial statement.
The fact that Joppa said that not only do you earn mastery XP through normal adventuring that mastery shards drop out in the world that can be crafted into mastery crystals that you can use. So with both of those combined you can, indeed, master everything.
So unless VR deliberately includes a hard stop that says you cannot max out everything, given an appropriate amount of time and effort people will max them out.
Vandraad said:And to take this to the logical conclusion, sooner than later you will have earned enough master to max out all your spells and thus putting everyone back to being exactly the same. So while leveling there will be some divergence, but eventually all will be the same.
That actually highlights a point in favor of Pantheon's LAS over WoW's "UAS." In WoW an Enhancement or Elemental Shaman can still cast healing spells, and there are situations where it might be beneficial for them to do so, but they will never be as effective as a Restoration Shaman that has the full benefit of their talents that grant additional spells and effectiveness towards healing.
From what we know about Pantheon there is not any additional functionality that is blocking players from playing the full potential of their class spells and skills. Mastery points might allow players to specialize early on, but, assuming it is possible to obtain all possible Mastery points for every skill, a level 50 Shaman has the choice of using the full potential of their DPS, Healing, or Utility skills and spells. Such a thing is not possible in WoW- even in the versions of the game where they introduced dual-specialization.
I actually don't think WoW is a great example of UAS. FFXIV:ARR is a much better example of UAS in an MMO, and I would find it hard to believe anyone on this forums wants Pantheon to be anything like FFXIV.
Keno Monster said:<3
I will say this, your chess analogy is appreciated, but this isn't like a single player d&d campaign where you can reload and try a different setup for a given encounter that you will never do again. Once you pass that fireball trap with the goblins, you will never do that again. That's not how this game is going to work. It's a real time game in which we will be repeating the same content over and over. And again, dispositions seem like an opposing concept to a limited action set. It's not going to be satisfying when your group dies because you got an add with the *random* CC immunity modifier when your group just made a calculated decision to attack a group of mobs with a CC loadout.
This is true, but your first statement stands regardless of LAS/UAS. One would continously make me have to get prepared pre-combat no matter how many times I went to a dungeon (LAS); whereas, the other would make me continously adapt mid-combat with my abilities already available (UAS) - repetitive content will ultimately be repetitive. Apples/Oranges to me there. I prefer more failure checks in the game, even if they may seem cheap or UI based. But, I also like console or CRPG games like Fire Emblem on hardest difficulty levels where there actually is very little action, it has permadeath, and more planning prior to movement and engaging, etc., so I am most likely bias in giving the LAS a chance.
Now, the disposition angle is a good point; however, I think it's also disengenous to think that everyone always has one ability type loaded out - even with 8 spell gems in EQ I had various spell types loaded, heals/DPS/Roots/CC etc. So, you take 8 x 6 at 48 with a full group, and I think there will be plenty of chance to react to unexpected dispositions like a CC imune. And, I also as an aside I think it would discourage soloing because if you forgot to load snare/fear as a necro for example you better be able to run to a zone line fast or you may be SOL, which I'm more than ok with. Either way - fair point though if they end up being Gatcha RNG deaths.
Again, the most important thing to me to avoid spammy combat which is really the reason most (in my opinion) are against UAS for is resource management or when they think a UAS gives unlimited ability to access all abilities at all times which wouldn't be the case.
And, I'll end with this - I do appreciate Joppa engaging in the discussion also, you all got me out of the shadows to post again and actually care about a thread - I'll be fine regardless of the system ultimately chosen.
Vandraad said:WalkingWaste said:I can't remember where it was mentioned, it might have been that Shaman Ability Spotlight video I talked to you about, but Joppa mentions something like it will be extremely difficult to get all of your mastery points for your character so the chances of you running with a player the same class as you who has all his or her mastery points and you also have all of your mastery points will be extremely low. Still allowing for varied group play even with the same classes in the group.
Extremely difficult does not equate to impossible. And what might be considered extremely difficult for one person would be just a matter of determinate and time for another. Statements like 'extremely difficult' take me back to when CCP Games introduced Titans to EVE Online and claimed that because Titans represented such a extreme committment of resources, skill and time that there would only ever be a handful of them in the game only to see hundreds with 2 years and now mulitple thousands of them makes CCP Games look like fools for that initial statement.
The fact that Joppa said that not only do you earn mastery XP through normal adventuring that mastery shards drop out in the world that can be crafted into mastery crystals that you can use. So with both of those combined you can, indeed, master everything.
So unless VR deliberately includes a hard stop that says you cannot max out everything, given an appropriate amount of time and effort people will max them out.
That's very true! That statement can be considered an opinion about difficulty, but it's all we can go on for now because none of us have reached max level or even played the game for that matter.
eunichron said:
That actually highlights a point in favor of Pantheon's LAS over WoW's "UAS." In WoW an Enhancement or Elemental Shaman can still cast healing spells, and there are situations where it might be beneficial for them to do so, but they will never be as effective as a Restoration Shaman that has the full benefit of their talents that grant additional spells and effectiveness towards healing.
From what we know about Pantheon there is not any additional functionality that is blocking players from playing the full potential of their class spells and skills. Mastery points might allow players to specialize early on, but, assuming it is possible to obtain all possible Mastery points for every skill, a level 50 Shaman has the choice of using the full potential of their DPS, Healing, or Utility skills and spells. Such a thing is not possible in WoW- even in the versions of the game where they introduced dual-specialization.
I actually don't think WoW is a great example of UAS. FFXIV:ARR is a much better example of UAS in an MMO, and I would find it hard to believe anyone on this forums wants Pantheon to be anything like FFXIV.
You're forgetting EQ2 - which in my opinion was even worse for ability bloat than FFXIV is. Both basically gave you unlimited buttons.
Something I want to call out here that people may have forgotten, since the last time it was really discussed was years ago. But Pantheon's combat abilities will (or did at one time) have a soft-specialization system based on attribute dependencies. Meaning that the "full potential" of a spell or ability was influenced by your stat values. As an example, if you're a monk, you might have some abilities that do damage based on strength, others that are based on dexterity, and others still that are based on things like strength+constitution or dexterity+stamina. This means that how you gear your character is going to influence how potent your abilities are. If you're stacking strength, then your strength-based abilities will be quite powerful, but your dexterity-based abilities might not be.
We tend to think about the concept of UAS as us having unlimited free reign to use every ability we possibly can - and we think about LAS in a "glass half-empty" kind of way where it prevents us from using everything we have access to - but the truth is that if that soft specialization ends up actually mattering, no one in Pantheon is going to be in a position where all of their abilities are 100% optimal to use - even very well-geared and established players may still end up essentially shutting themselves out of using certain abilities very effectively.
So my point here is that there's a lot more going on with ability selection than just how the UI works and we should remember that. One of Pantheon's design tenets is meaningful choices.
Personally, I'm not really for or against the LAS in general. I can see arguments on both sides. I think I like the idea of a "soft" LAS that allows you to change abilities/spells one at a time (with some kind of timer to do it) if and only if you're able to somehow drop aggro so that you aren't interrupted - similar to how EQ handled spell gems. Either way though, I think that there's so many things layered on top of each other when it comes to combat gameplay that the only way to know if it's good or bad is to test it - extensively - and then look at feedback based on that testing.
Joppa said:To those of you actively against Pantheon's LAS, please read the statement below and answer the following question as succinctly as you can. ... So here's the question: please explain, using the information I've provided in the statement above, why you think WoW's LAS works and has led the game to become the gold standard of MMORPG success, but Pantheon's LAS is an inevitable and absurd failure.
The succinct answer to your question is: You have fewer slots available to you. That's why I think Pantheons system, without modification, will fare poorly.
I wouldn't have brought up any logical criticisms, nor critical assessments, nor historical comparisons with other failed systems if you had/did exactly one thing:
Expand the number of active threat-generating abilities to 12-14 for PA5.
That's it. You do that, I won't even discuss the subject until PA5 is over, because you will have started with a mathematically viable starting point, for testing.
Given the incomplete number of revealed spells and skills per class, to date, 8 active threat generating abilities is objectively too few. Even if you could completely utilize all your unique role defining abilities in 6 of the 8 active threat generating abilities? That leaves exactly two to handle the disposition immunities that require active threat generating counters. Out of what? A dozen disposition immunities? Doesn't line up, mathematically. Never mind the whole 8 active threat generating hotkeys vs. 30, 40, or 50+ total abilities/spells (wherever that number ends up, per class)
We've gone around this mulberry bush once before, but if the design goal for dispositions (and other systems) is to make content dynamic, and you, via the UI, make it impossible for players to react to that dynamic content, that design is fundamentally flawed. I'm locked in combat, and I cannot change. The content has changed, and although I have the tools to meet the challenge, the UI is preventing me from doing it. In EQ1, I can adjust and react and perform my role. In Pantheon, I cannot, entirely because the in-combat locked UI is preventing me from doing so. EQ1 has no in-combat locked UI. All actions and abilities are available on their respect recast timers, spells can be re-memmed with mild risk, and it's my choice that drives success or failure, not the UI preventing me from pressing the key I need to press.
If dispositions meet their design goal, then players MUST react to them. If they can't react, then.. you're creating an impossibly frustrating situation.
It's not like these types of things haven't been tried before. Inevitably, the failure of the average player to fully embrace the challenge will lead to nerfing content (and the UI) to the lowest common denominator, rendering both LAS and Dispositions ineffective, or turned into gimmicks. That would be yet another terribly missed opportunity for Pantheon, imo.
I don't want LAS to fail. I think the idea in principle is good, but this implementation design needs work prior to testing, again, imo.
I'll also point out that the premise of "This is the tradeoff for having full freedom to alter your loadouts with access to all of your abilities (not spec-defined ones) instead of being limited to the offerings of the pre-determined 3" is not something that needs trading off, per encounter.
You're describing a chracter progression issue and conflating it with a combat UI issue. They're not the same subject, contextually.
Put another way, you can restrict, permit, grant or deny class abilities by character choice, and make them both meaningful and long term, and still have a large enough number of active threat generating abilities on a locked in-combat hotbar. There is ... wiggle room, or adjustment area, or a tuning region in between 8 and All. There is some grey area here where you can achieve both goals.
If the primary goal of LAS is to achieve a DDO-esque level of fidelity in ability or spell use (temporally or duty-cycle)? That's what cooldowns are for, and more elegant solutions. If you want to discuss those more elegant solutions, as an actual design exercise? Great, all over that idea, this community would rise to the occasion.
Joppa said:Two more questions for you vjek:
1. Give me an example of an MMO with no UI restrictions.
2. Related to the first, I'm having a difficult time marking your definition of "abritrary UI restrictions". From this post I gather that, if you are unable to have an ability on your bar, that's an "arbitrary UI restriction". However, if it's on your bar but you can't click it b/c you can only use it once a day, that is not an "arbitrary UI restriction" (ala WoW talent system) but rather an "arbitrary design restriction" (ala DDO ability use-criteria), and you are only comfortable with the latter. Is that a correct understanding?
Joppa said:... Before we go further, please explain why some insist on speaking of Pantheon's LAS as if there were only 8 abilities that mattered to the discussion.