Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Upcoming Dev Interview: Combat & Limited Actions w/ Joppa

    • 2886 posts
    June 16, 2020 12:32 PM PDT

    ‪Just to give everyone a heads up...

    This Friday, June 19, at 7pm ET, I will be doing a live interview with Pantheon’s Creative Director Chris “Joppa” Perkins to ask him the community’s biggest questions about the game’s combat system and limited action sets.‬ Limited action sets (or limited hotbars) are a highly debated topic in the community - and to be honest, I myself am not completed sold on the idea, so it should be interesting to drill into all the implications and reasons why VR has decided to go that direction. This is a very important topic as it touches on many areas of gameplay, so I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on it as well.

    The interview will take place on www.twitch.tv/BazgrimTV. Looking forward to seeing you all there!

    • 122 posts
    June 16, 2020 1:18 PM PDT

    Looking forward to it!

    • 2756 posts
    June 16, 2020 1:37 PM PDT

    I probably won't be able to catch it live, being in GMT, but I don't think I have a specific question for chat anyway...

    Just keen to hear more of the reasoning behind the choice.

    I know it is intended to be flexible/changeable if testing shows it to not work as well as they hope, but Joppa has always seemed kinda convinced it's the way to go, so I'd like to hear more about why he thinks that.

    The main thing that worries me is that they are over-emphasising the front-loading of decisions. Too much shuffling toolbars before encounters and not enough dynamic choice during. I don't think the preparation (and the failing if you haven't correctly prepared) is really the fun bit, to be honest. Also, how can that emphasis be compatible with dynamic content like dispositions where you don't know they are coming?

    Oh... maybe I did have questions ;^)

    P.S. Hope it goes well, Baz!


    This post was edited by disposalist at June 16, 2020 2:00 PM PDT
    • 2886 posts
    June 16, 2020 3:33 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I probably won't be able to catch it live, being in GMT, but I don't think I have a specific question for chat anyway...

    Just keen to hear more of the reasoning behind the choice.

    I know it is intended to be flexible/changeable if testing shows it to not work as well as they hope, but Joppa has always seemed kinda convinced it's the way to go, so I'd like to hear more about why he thinks that.

    The main thing that worries me is that they are over-emphasising the front-loading of decisions. Too much shuffling toolbars before encounters and not enough dynamic choice during. I don't think the preparation (and the failing if you haven't correctly prepared) is really the fun bit, to be honest. Also, how can that emphasis be compatible with dynamic content like dispositions where you don't know they are coming?

    Oh... maybe I did have questions ;^)

    P.S. Hope it goes well, Baz!

    It will be posted on my YouTube channel (www.youtube.com/bazgrimtv) ASAP afterward, so no worries if you can't make it live! I will be drilling deep into these exact questions and more, so hopefully you find it helpful!


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at June 16, 2020 3:34 PM PDT
    • 217 posts
    June 16, 2020 3:43 PM PDT

    wont be able to make it but look forwards to seeing the youtube later

    • 888 posts
    June 16, 2020 4:12 PM PDT
    I'll definitely check it out. A lot of us who question specific systems do so, not because we think it's terrible, but because we have concerns and we hope expressing them will ensure that they are addressed.

    I don't like having to few buttons because it forces us to all take the same few core abilities and because it forces us into boring rotations where every combat is Groundhog's Day. I don't like too many options (20+) because you have everything covered. Both options lead to most characters being about the same as each other.

    The trick is to get in the Goldilocks zone, where it's not too few and not too many. I want enough ability slots that I can take some less "core" ones. This allows us to be more distinct and have more variety. But there needs to be a gap, where I'm still not covering everything, so we all feel like we're somewhat specialized.

    Further, I really want to see a mix of short cool-down with medium and long, since that allows for more tactical combat and gives us an "oh s**t" button. A really tight LAS needs to be focused on the core rotation and takes away a lot of fun, tactical decision-making. It also forces us to frequently swap around abilities, and I really hate that.

    I would love to see a primary LAS that's <10 and a secondary bar of the same size, but any power slotted in the second bar is on a 10 minute plus cool-down. This gives us a focused LAS but still gives us room for "oh s**t" buttons, more situational abilities, and ones chosen more for flavor.
    • 1273 posts
    June 16, 2020 5:11 PM PDT

    I have no problem with digging deeper into why he/they are making the decisions they are making but I'd rather it not be something they are put on the defensive about.  Hopefully there are good ways to talk about it that show how excited he is about what he's got coming and not feeling like he's got his back against a wall trying to convince us all that it's a good idea.

    So I maybe that is my question:  "What is most exciting to you about limited actions?"

    Maybe another question could be:  "What's a memorable moment in your gaming history when disaster struck because you were not prepared properly?"

    And how about:  "Assuming there are multiple ways to approach an encounter what can you say to people who are worried they will not have the "right" buttons on the action bar before the encounter starts?"

    Well, I'm excited to watch it on your channel after the fact.  It's my son's birthday so I probably shouldn't watch this live :)  

    • 560 posts
    June 16, 2020 8:48 PM PDT

    I am not sure I will be able to watch it live but I am looking forward to seeing it. I have not seen you do a live interview and I am excited to see that. I love your videos they always enlighten in ways I did not expect.

    I do not really have a question. I do have concerns with Limited action sets (or limited hotbars) but seeing as I have played both EQ and Vanguard with no issues I could see both systems working. I guess I just do not see the argument of why it is going to improve the game.

    • 122 posts
    June 16, 2020 10:46 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I have no problem with digging deeper into why he/they are making the decisions they are making but I'd rather it not be something they are put on the defensive about.  Hopefully there are good ways to talk about it that show how excited he is about what he's got coming and not feeling like he's got his back against a wall trying to convince us all that it's a good idea.

     

    This is exactly how I feel.  To me, a game is kind of like an art exhibition.  They are the artist and we are the spectators that get to appriciate the artwork.  It's ultimately up to them how they want their game to be.  I'm sure some people will leave because they won't like certain aspects but others will love those same aspects and stay.

    • 724 posts
    June 17, 2020 1:37 AM PDT

    My main question would be if they are still adamant on "no changing of skills during combat". And if so, why they consider it bad being able to adapt one's strategy during combat.

    • 888 posts
    June 17, 2020 5:01 AM PDT
    @Sarim
    I suspect the reason is they don't want a defacto unlimited action set configuration that basically defeats the purpose of the LAS system and has us spending our time combating the GUI.
    • 2756 posts
    June 17, 2020 5:17 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said: @Sarim I suspect the reason is they don't want a defacto unlimited action set configuration that basically defeats the purpose of the LAS system and has us spending our time combating the GUI.

    No point getting into the arguments here, but I would definitely like to know more about the potential for changing strategy mid-combat.

    Personally, I would like some kind of "Oh sh1t" Cast-From-Codex possiblity, even with increased mana/cast-time/cool-down or whatever.

    The prospect of choosing wrong and then just grinding my teeth in frustration, when I know I *know* a skill I need, until the combat it over is... not good.

    • 2756 posts
    June 17, 2020 7:02 AM PDT

    Just read a review of Early Access Torchlight 3 and it reminds me I do have another awkward quetion about LAS...

    Is it anything to do with a planned console version (or even mobile version) of Pantheon? Or even controller compatibility?

    Please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no, please say no...

    I cannot count the number of games I've looked forward to and been hugely disappointed because they have clearly been limited in multiple ways so as to work on console/controller also...

    LAS is an obvious contender. I really hope it isn't so.

    P.S. I play console games too. It's not a 'master race' thing. Console games are *different* and for good reason. They do some things better. They do some things worse. Old school MMORPGs are (relatively) very complex and *should be* that way. Consoles do not do them well.

    • 2752 posts
    June 17, 2020 9:11 AM PDT

    Can't see how they could even come close to planning that with how lean the team is. And how many actions you can have has nothing to do with a controller, FFXIV does controller very well with plenty of buttons. 

    • 888 posts
    June 17, 2020 9:59 AM PDT
    I would be all for having multiple hotkey bars and being able to swap between them in combat. They could balance it by adding a cool-down to prevent frequent swaps. Or they could allow those, but balance it by locking down all abilities for a few seconds after switching.

    @disposalist
    I wasn't trying to start an argument and I hope I didn't come across that way.
    • 2756 posts
    June 17, 2020 10:03 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said: I would be all for having multiple hotkey bars and being able to swap between them in combat. They could balance it by adding a cool-down to prevent frequent swaps. Or they could allow those, but balance it by locking down all abilities for a few seconds after switching. @disposalist I wasn't trying to start an argument and I hope I didn't come across that way.

    No no! Not at all! I was quoting you because it made me think of my comment and I meant, no point arguing, just because it's a thread about Baz's interview, not to rehash the whole LAS thing ;^)

    • 1921 posts
    June 17, 2020 10:13 AM PDT

    As others have already enumerated at length, if you can get him to describe how LAS aligns with multi-disposition encounters, that would be ideal. 
    Especially in the case of open triggered/summoned encounters (as is their current solution for open-world raid competition) and respawns.
    The context being, given you can't or won't know the disposition ahead of time, you won't be able to select your "most appropriate" abilities and spells prior to being locked in combat.

    And also why they have chosen to prohibit the use of consumables, clickies, and similar, in combat?  The design goals behind that decision would be great to hear.
    If it's possible to use consumables, clickies, and similar, in combat, exactly how is that going to be possible with only 8 active slots available?

    (I'm aware they have shelved the idea of multi-disposition encounters for PA5, yet, the idea is not dead, yet.  If it's really dead?  Awesome.  Get confirmation.)

    • 2138 posts
    June 17, 2020 10:24 AM PDT

    I think this is interesting, because in the last stream he commented on how the overlap made the combat feel more fluid, so its like their is a limit, but nor a limit. Maybe the issue can be rephrased? If that heal felt more fluid on recasting in the last stream how could there be a limit in combat?

    Unless there is an overlap between classes where the limitations as the devs put it, become more of a specific group dynamic based on the make up of said group that is not wholly dependent on the "quarternity"?

     

    pip-pip what-what?

    • 1273 posts
    June 17, 2020 2:02 PM PDT

    Thought of another question, although I'm not really sure if it's on topic (related to combat in a way lol)

    From the FAQ:  "So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."

    I'm wondering if this means that you will not be able to lose a level upon death.  Example:  You level up and your very next fight you die and normaly would have lost exp, but since you have none in the current level to lose you don't lose any.  OR can you get negative exp in the current level but keep the current level.  Or something else :)


    This post was edited by Ranarius at June 17, 2020 2:03 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    June 19, 2020 7:12 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    Thought of another question, although I'm not really sure if it's on topic (related to combat in a way lol)

    From the FAQ:  "So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."

    I'm wondering if this means that you will not be able to lose a level upon death.  Example:  You level up and your very next fight you die and normaly would have lost exp, but since you have none in the current level to lose you don't lose any.  OR can you get negative exp in the current level but keep the current level.  Or something else :)

    This is a good question, some of us are in favor of loosing levels in your senerio. It always added a bit of extra fear/drama/excitment/decision making to leveling "ok now stay sharp so I don't die" "load my new spells yet or not" "stay and get a buffer of call it a day now?" but last I knew this was still up for debate

    Arudune was against deleveling...

    Joppa was in favor of deleveling...

    (from Tower of the Reckless Magician videos I'm pretty sure is where I saw that, if somebody wanted to go find it)

    not to mention what you quoted from the FAQ. if we rule out "unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items" whats left to "sting"? Nothing, a run to our corpse... yea whatever "no gear loss" means there has to be a way to recover, summon our corpse, "no unreasonable amount of experience" means that won't be much of a problem, no loss of level... Well see the thread of being able to turn exp off and how many in favor of it... very few care about exp. except that 15% rush to end game group. 

    LOTS of unanswered questions in this area

     

    • 521 posts
    June 19, 2020 7:41 AM PDT

    Question: Assuming Deleveling is in, will frequent Deleveling bring a chance for permanent stat damage to occur.

    • 388 posts
    June 19, 2020 6:59 PM PDT

     

    The show was great. Thanks Baz and Thanks Joppa for being so involved with the communty. 

    • 34 posts
    June 19, 2020 9:05 PM PDT

    Bazgrim - Thanks for hosting~

    Mr. Perkins - Thanks for your time. Always happy to hear you shed some light on anything Pantheon.

    • 2756 posts
    June 20, 2020 4:29 AM PDT

    Yep thanks so much, guys. Loved hearing from you both. VERY interesting discussion.

    Whenever I hear Joppa speak about the game his thorough knowledge, clear design principles and huge passion shine through.

    It is clear Joppa is utterly convinced the pluses of LAS outweigh any negatives and he seems very confident it will play well.

    As someone sceptical of the LAS it's made me much happier to get into PA5 and try it out!

    Can't wait.


    This post was edited by disposalist at June 20, 2020 4:30 AM PDT
    • 2886 posts
    June 20, 2020 6:29 AM PDT

    Thanks again to Joppa and everyone that tuned in live! It was a really, really info-packed discussion and I feel honored to have been a part of it. It was a lot of fun. But if you couldn't catch it live, don't worry! The recording is now up on YouTube: https://youtu.be/seGjrFIRVYU