Keno Monster said:It is my opinion that swapping in and out of loadouts is tedious and not at all fun. I don't want to play my loadout hot keys, I want to play the game.
In find this statement actually quite interesting as this notion that swapping this on to, and off of, the action bar was somthing Joppa specifically mentioned with respect to buffs. That having to load the buffs, cast them, then replace them with something else only to repeat that at some point later is considered tedius. So I wonder which is more tedious, the swapping in/out of buffs every 45 minutes or so or potentially swapping out loadouts every couple of fights?
Is it tedium to do something once an hour, for which you have a visual timer letting you know when you should be preparing to refresh buffs, or having to swap spells/abilities randomly as the respawn of disposition wielding mobs appear.
I never found pausing for a few seconds now and then to refresh buffs tedius in any way. It was just part and parcel of playing a class blessed with lots of buffs my group needed.
I actually enjoyed re-buffing the group as well. I feel like the "set it and forget it" approach takes a little bit away from the actions of a buffing class. But, I don't think I feel too strongly about it. I do like most of what was said about buffs, but that specific part I think I'd prefer a simple timer and rebuff...I guess I'd wait to see how it feels in gameplay though.
Raidan said:@Keno
We agree on 99% of items, but I think this system if implemented correctly is more just a matter of preference. More importantly to me is resource management/slow out of combat regeneration. If you have nearly instantaneous regeneration like most MMOs today, skills will be on a fast rotation regardless of the system used, and most likely, not in a greater number the LAS would provide - it is the finite resources that cause/force the strategy in combat and choice of what ability to use or not more than the loaded set (and the ability to differentiate a skilled/knowledgeable player).
So, with that said, as you say, game design (resource management in my opinion) still will account for most the strategy. Could you ideally accomplish most the same level of strategy with the UAS as the LAS? Yes, as long as the resource management is punishing enough to penalize you for using the wrong ability at the wrong time.
However, I do think that the LAS could add an additional layer of depth to combat past that. The way I look at it is its similar to a game like Chess versus a real-time strategy game. The LAS does add another layer of depth to "think about" prior to combat. And, yes, you may choose the wrong load out, but ideally, that is when you would need to think on your feet with your group and adapt to the situation versus being able to have all abilities at your fingertips.
I would rather have times that I have the wrong skills loaded, or spells loaded - I always preferred the less than ideal groups, or make-ups and figuring it out - to me this would force that style of gameplay.
And, I'll echo Joppa's ending statement - your introduction post is still one of if not my favorite post on this forum - I'd say give a chance to test before completely dismissing any counter - if it's terrible during testing and they refuse to change, then, have at it and I'm sure I'll be right there with you.
<3
I will say this, your chess analogy is appreciated, but this isn't like a single player d&d campaign where you can reload and try a different setup for a given encounter that you will never do again. Once you pass that fireball trap with the goblins, you will never do that again. That's not how this game is going to work. It's a real time game in which we will be repeating the same content over and over. And again, dispositions seem like an opposing concept to a limited action set. It's not going to be satisfying when your group dies because you got an add with the *random* CC immunity modifier when your group just made a calculated decision to attack a group of mobs with a CC loadout.
Hokanu said: It seems like party of the concern Keno is that there are scenarios where you may be unprepared for an encounter that results in a death. But it's simple really, that's the nature of the game. Learn to be prepared. Learn how to improvise and improve
No, you miss the point. It's not about risk or dying. It's dissatisfying to die when you COULD have 1: not been limited by LAS or 2: Been able to change an ability in combat. You HAD a power with the potential to save the day, but you were handicapped, unable to use it. Even if you still die, that's not the issue. It does not feel good to have a RANDOM mob counter you when you possess an ability to deal with it, as an individual or as a group, but aren't allowed to by some game mechanic. If you're pulling the fire mage lord guy and you forget to buff resist fire, that's one thing. But RANDOMLY getting an AEing fire mage mob and simply being unlucky that you didn't have a fire resist buff up is not smart, creative or fun. It is oppressive.
In EQ if you sat down to change a spell, you drew aggro and you created an opportunity cost. You were not healing, you were not tanking, you were not DPSing. When you got attacked sitting down, every attempt was an automatic hit for max damage. That was a meaningful decision that at least gave players a chance to adapt.
Do you even know what improvise means? The definition is spontaneously and without preparation. How can you improvise when you are locked into a loadout with zero opportunity to spontaneously change the tide of battle? Also improve what? Your ability to choose the correct loadout round 2? Lots of skill involved there. I’d argue there’s more skill involved in adapting to a situation on the fly, in the heat of the moment, when things are the most tense. Not when you’ve had time to sit back and think about it after the fact and then choose the correct loadout.
Hokanu said: Hmm Mando, if you can't understand what is meant of improvise when referencing your available spells, then I don't know if your thinking hard enough about it. Keno, I don't know what to say man. Sometimes you will be sheet out of luck in a dangerous world. That makes it more interesting for me, but obviously less for you. That's ok, best we don't go on the merry go round. I do get your point, but we are just after different experiences
We know you don't know what to say because you're missing everything we do(say).
omg..
Improvise with regards to coming up with a way to use your available toolkit creatively to get out of a situation in absense of the "perfect" skill being loaded onto your bar.
Or improvise by combining your toolkit with another players toolkit to get a result that will get you through the fight, when once again the perfect skill is not availble to your on your toolbar atthat moment.
I am a necro, i dont have root or snare on my bar because i forgot, a situation arises that we need some cc, I have fear but we know that could end badly if the mob runs off fast into other mobs, i yell for my friend to throw up a snare because he is a druid and I know from an earlier session he has snare up but probably doesnt have root up either because he was relying on me to root, so i call for a snare and i fear and we have used our available toolkit to create a mediocre crowd control effect that will work, or if it doesnt we will die, the thing is, that last bit is ok to me.
Fragile said:Keno Monster said:
Again, choosing a loadout over and over before combat is pretty cheesey to me. It promotes a "don't engage unless you already know the outcome of the fight" mentality. It is my opinion that swapping in and out of loadouts is tedious and not at all fun. I don't want to play my loadout hot keys, I want to play the game. It is dissatisfying for a player to put points into a mastery, for example, and then not have it available to them. You have gained something, but not really, you are always less than.
Nail on head.
LAS does not need to be like this but if it is I would also agree with this statement. I would feel the same if I had to switch my gear around constantly between fights.
I was want to thank everyone that has put so much time into their posts. I have found the conversation very thought provoking.
All Keno is saying is that to him this does not sound like a fun system. Not hard to understand his opinion. I just don't agree with his opinion, and that's OK...no point in trying to convince each other about an opnion on what is fun and what is not when each individual defines fun for him/herself. People tend to enjoy different things in life (and in video games).
I like baseball. I enjoy playing it, watching it, talking about it, etc. But there are plenty of people out there that say "baseball is so boring!" I could try to convince them of why baseball is actually not boring or I could accept that to me it's not boring and to them it is.
The interview between Baz and Joppa was excellent.
Joppa did a great job to explain the LAS and how it will fit into combat in Pantheon; as a solo aventurer, duo, trio or full group and the different options, challenges and teamwork that represents and incidentally how it satisfies several game tenants also.
Unfortunately it seems like 3 particularly negative posters who have for a long time been very closed-minded, dismissive, hostile and negative about the LAS are once again here and using some incredible mental gymnastics to misrepresent Joppa's words, the LAS system and the Pantheon community at large.
The LAS has been positively received by most, yet a vocal minority continues to claim the opposite, just to further their own agenda.
It is once again puzzling why they are even here and following this game whe an LAS and all the game tenants that links into it like teamwork and player dependability have been core tenants since the start and are here to stay, for the good of the game and it's design philosophies.
Ranarius said:All Keno is saying is that to him this does not sound like a fun system. Not hard to understand his opinion. I just don't agree with his opinion, and that's OK...no point in trying to convince each other about an opnion on what is fun and what is not when each individual defines fun for him/herself. People tend to enjoy different things in life (and in video games).
I like baseball. I enjoy playing it, watching it, talking about it, etc. But there are plenty of people out there that say "baseball is so boring!" I could try to convince them of why baseball is actually not boring or I could accept that to me it's not boring and to them it is.
If that was all it was, I wouldn't be struggling so hard to understand. He's not saying "I don't like that" he's saying "that is wrong" like it's an objective fact, which makes me think there must be a misunderstanding, because it doesn't seem like that to me and, clearly, Joppa doesn't see it that way.
Keno is not saying "I don't like baseball" he's saying "Baseball *is* boring. Your explanation of why it is not, is logically wrong. You should abandon baseball, but you don't understand my reasons why, so you won't".
But let's continue to try to understand. Some of those opinions as I think I understand them: -
1. UAS doesn't mean 'rotations' and good game design makes LAS unnecessary.
I think I finally understand where this comes from. I believe the misunderstanding comes from a slight difference in the 'rotation' meaning. I think to Keno it means a *single ideal* rotation of skills used *no matter what* the situation. This is obviously a bad thing and bad game design if it is a successful tactic (or lack of tactics).
I think of 'rotation' as being a repeated sequence of skills, but not necessarily the same for all situations. I'm not sure I've ever done that or others I know have done that, hence my differing understanding. I have discussed at great length with others 'good' rotations as a base for general play, but have always understood that almost every encounter was all about deviations from that rotation.
Anyway... if I've understood Keno correctly, I understand better his view, *but* I still don't agree. Good game design can, yes, stop UAS devolving into a simple, single rotation, but it can't do all the other stuff that LAS can do. That is not all LAS is about and no one, including Joppa, has said that, so hopefully, we can not focus there anymore.
Also, good game design is, of course, needed whether UAS or LAS is used. LAS is not an 'easier' route allowing 'simplistic' game design, though I think it does allow more options to a designer.
2. Being denied a skill you 'know' but do not have 'loaded' is frustrating.
I actually agree! But is that enough to say LAS is bad? The question is: is it worth it to sometimes encounter this frustration if the upshot is greater challenge, improvision and group interaction? Will we eventually look upon this 'frustration' as exciting curve-balls? Or as additional complexity/challenge?
3. Being denied the ideal solution to a problem means you will fail.
No. If you get poisoned and you don't have Cure Poison loaded, you plop on an extra Heal-Over-Time or you back off so you take less other damage so you can cope or, or, or... There are almost certainly going to be dozens of non-ideal tactics you can employ to compensate without having the ideal solution.
Another aspect of this point might be "picking the right loadout = cheesing the win" and is, of course, also not true. Choosing a good loadout doesn't guarantee a win any more than choosing a bad one guarantees a loss. It is just another tactical choice that contributes.
4. You can't prepare for dynamic/surprise content
Of course not. Not completely. But you *can* prepare for what you *think* will happen and that will be vastly better than *not* preparing at all. If you get surprised, the whole point of LAS kicks in. It's not a bad thing at all. As in point 3, it's not supposed to hand you a win or condemn you to fail, it's supposed to be an additional, tactical choice to influence the encounter.
You may not even have the opportunity to prepare. This could be intentional to ramp up the challenge. It adds options for the designer. In UAS a 'surprise' just means you just take a second to pick a skill outside your normal rotation. In LAS it means you have to improvise and overcome a meaningful deficit in your preparedness with your group.
5. You can't improvise around a surprise without access to all your skills
Of course you can, in fact, this is the nature of the improvisation. If you have all skills available, you aren't 'improvising' you are just selecting the solution. With LAS you are truly improvising as you have to devise and choose a non-ideal solution with non-ideal skills and your group.
An improvisational test: Open a wine bottle: LAS: Here's a piece of string and a shirt button. UAS: Here's a piece of string, a button, oh and a corkscrew and a blowtorch and a mallet. Which is more challenging and fun?
Sure, with UAS, there might be some improvisation depending on cooldowns and class combinations, but with LAS it is much more likely to happen and much more likely to be something complex and interesting.
I have to keep saying: I'm not pro-LAS, per se. I have concerns. The difference is, I appreciate the reasoning behind it and I think it might be worth the problems noted. I have questions for Joppa, but I'm not going to present my concerns as negative 'facts' about LAS and tell Joppa I don't trust him to listen or think it through!
Let me state my remaining concerns - some from original discussion and some new from the info we have now: -
A) As noted above, will the frustration of not being able to do stuff you 'know' be too great?
B) Will there be further frustration from a lack of combat 'breakers' for certain classes?
C) Will swapping actions be annoying if desired often?
D) Will swapping bars interrupting buffs be a further frustration? Or is it an intended tactical choice to add meaning to swapping loadout?
E) Will I end up having to make dozens of hotbar loadouts because I want to replicate just using a single unloaded skill?
F) Will managing loadouts be a frustrating, tedious thing, or will it be an enjoyable, additional part of the game?
There are probably more. I do have concerns. But I do also see the benefits to LAS. It's about whether they overall make for a better system or whether you just can't stomach the stuff you don't find as 'fun', but to say LAS is just 'wrong'?... *shrug* That's your choice, I guess, but I think you must be willfully ignoring a lot of the reasoning if you think that way.
LAS choices will be more based on group composition rather than encounter by encounter needs. You wont need to be constantly shifting your set to account for one disposition or another, you will just need to make sure every required reaction is covered by someone in your group or you have a suboptimal way of dealing with it.
LAS will hurt soloist, period. I believe that is a good thing as it shifts the focus from “can I kill it?” to “can we kill it?” Pantheon is intended to be a group game with little to no deliberate content for solo play. One of the only ways to force that is to “literally” (used in the right way) require more than one player to respond to each specific encounter by preventing a single player to provide all of the counters.
If the main argument against LAS is that it makes it impossible to solo then this is a done discussion. Soloing is against the primary game tenets. LAS makes grouping the path of least resistance for gaining XP and that is the only way to make grouping the primary activity of Pantheon. The more players required the better.
Someone earlier in this thread was sarcastically saying that everyone should just be a single spell rather than having a class. In some ways that is actually a good mental standpoint. Rather than focusing on what class you are then focus on which group roles and tools you will bring to the table. Are you bringing agro control, physical mitigation, spell mitigation, single target healing, group healing, physical debuffing, spell debuffing, physical direct damage, spell direct damage of different types, stuns, calms, mez, charm, snare, root, or blind? Additionally will be the player verse environment utility powers mix, can you get everyone over x wall, over that fast moving water, around the traps, and through the woods?
The number of reaction and synergy powers you have chosen will directly negatively effect your damage/healing through put but that’s the tactical portion of the game. Do you want to use a counter or just power through so that you have higher DPS most of the fight? Do you want to use the cast version of your buffs or the aura version (keeping it on your bar vs casting and switching to something else) you may want to keep the auras up that help the tank and cast the DPS buffs as the tank is undergeared and the dps is not.
Having access to everything all the time either requires giving counters to fewer class thereby making certain classes mandatory for certain content or putting super long cool downs on counters such that each person can really only use one once or twice a fight. The same with DPS control through cool downs. If you want to limit a healers possible DPS you put high reuse timers on their abilities which means they need lots of buttons and screen space to maximize their DPS where as a few buttons and shorter cool downs would yield the same effect. Finally will be stacking single purpose synergies. If you really need a specific style of healing you will need to dedicate most of your slots to achieve it. Same for specific damage types and tanking. In order to have that specific strength you need to give up other abilities temporarily.
disposalist said:Ranarius said:All Keno is saying is that to him this does not sound like a fun system. Not hard to understand his opinion. I just don't agree with his opinion, and that's OK...no point in trying to convince each other about an opnion on what is fun and what is not when each individual defines fun for him/herself. People tend to enjoy different things in life (and in video games).
I like baseball. I enjoy playing it, watching it, talking about it, etc. But there are plenty of people out there that say "baseball is so boring!" I could try to convince them of why baseball is actually not boring or I could accept that to me it's not boring and to them it is.
If that was all it was, I wouldn't be struggling so hard to understand. He's not saying "I don't like that" he's saying "that is wrong" like it's an objective fact, which makes me think there must be a misunderstanding, because it doesn't seem like that to me and, clearly, Joppa doesn't see it that way.
Honestly Disp, When you read people say "This si Wrong!" or qoute like this on a game they aren't any part of it is simply him just stating his truth, not that it is actually true. Like i could go on and on and on about how UAS has just as many flaws as they think LAS has, becuase those are my truths, but aren't everybody's truth. Like for instance I can like football, and find someone else who likes football, but we like it for 2 tottally different reasons, but still like it.
So if people stating these statements, and are calling them truths, or this is correct, or straight up wrong and it won't work, but you think it can, than simply ignore them, I do, it's basically why i never respind to Vjek, or Keno like ever on these forums, they are simply just posting out completely bias opinions and stating them as truths and it pointless to say anything to them becuase they simply won't listen to you and just point out another bias opinion to say your wrong. So again whats the point.
Another side note that has probably been pointed out several times, but I'll point it out again...LAS exists in one of the most popular longest lasting games out there. Dungeons and Dragons. You ever had to choose which spells to memorize in that game? That's an example of LAS. If LAS was inherintly WRONG then it would have been changed in DnD years ago as well. But it works because the game is designed with that philosophy in mind. That's why I just roll my eyes when people make arguments that it is RIGHT or WRONG as a blanket statement. It's obviously an opinion and not a fact.
This doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed, especially in the development of a new game. But it is certainly difficult to discuss when people state opinions as facts.
I am not a professional debater, like some seem to be. I believe it even gets 'taught' in some American schools? How to win arguments no matter the subject? There was no such thing for me and if I seem like I'm trying to 'win' an argument, it's not my intention - I am usually just trying to understand and make myself understood.
Of course, I understand that almost everything in these forums is someone giving their opinion, but, there is a distinct difference between saying "I don't agree" and "you are wrong".
Saying "you are wrong" is not just saying "I think differently" or "I don't like that". It is asserting that the your opinion is invalid and/or your reasoning incorrect.
Maybe I shouldn't, but I find it hard to ignore people that misunderstand me, whether it seems they are doing it willfully or unintentionally. I like to make the effort to come to an understanding and at least agree to disagree.
I don't think Keno or anyone in this forum don't deserve a chance at being understood and recognised just because they are opinonated (I am often like that, too, I know). The best friends to make are often those that are difficult, I have found. It can be a frustrating journey, but the destination is a great place to be!
We have come 'to blows' ourselves, Riahuf22 and I like to think we have come out of that with greater understanding of both the individual issue we argued over and each other, as a result.
I can only hope to get similar results with Keno and any other I 'argue' with, here.
It would be nice if everyone would realise a bit more that we are all here for similar reasons and our similarities and agreements almost certainly outnumber our differences, but people are passionate about this game and the genre and it's easy to forget.
Ranarius said:Another side note that has probably been pointed out several times, but I'll point it out again...LAS exists in one of the most popular longest lasting games out there. Dungeons and Dragons. You ever had to choose which spells to memorize in that game? That's an example of LAS. If LAS was inherintly WRONG then it would have been changed in DnD years ago as well. But it works because the game is designed with that philosophy in mind. That's why I just roll my eyes when people make arguments that it is RIGHT or WRONG as a blanket statement. It's obviously an opinion and not a fact.
This doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed, especially in the development of a new game. But it is certainly difficult to discuss when people state opinions as facts.
You are right, but I think context makes an important distinction. Where as DnD did have a LAS, a locked one at that, it also wasn't a game that was programmed. A DM, a good one, would make adjustments to the adventure to ensure, above all things, that the players were having fun. If that means fudging dice rolls or otherwise dynamically changing any and all encounters so the group just didn't die and end the session, the DM did that. That type of luxury doesn't exist in an MMO. The DM, in an MMO, is a heartless, uncaring set of equations, algorhythms and RNGs.
disposalist said:The primary design goal of a London Bus and a Jumbo Jet is transporting people. Yeah, those are essentially the same.
I was expecting this as a response, so here's the follow-up.
The reason such a design goal is bad, that is, the reason using the UI to enforce a subset of total abilities available, is, it leads to this from customers:
" I wanted to press the button, but the UI wouldn't let me "
" My character knows that ability, but I can't use it, because the UI won't let me "
" Yep, we lost because the UI prevented me from pressing the button for the ability or spell that I know "
" I spent all this time to know that ability, and now it's unavailable when I need it most "
This is not a positive interaction with the game. It's entirely punitive and entirely negative. These systems as described and designed by both Chris Spears and Chris Perkins, regardless of how they're implemented, create yet another artificial barrier between the customer and the character. If you have too many of these artificial barriers in your UI, customers don't feel immersed in the world. Why?
Because the game is preventing them from doing what they have spent dozens or hundreds of hours doing, that is, increasing their own personal power, through progress.
They've progressed through the game world and are doing their best to perform their role, yet, the UI of the game is preventing them from doing that. It's like watching a movie through waxed paper.
They have the ability, but, through artificial barriers, they can't use that ability, at the exact moment it matters the most.
And to be clear? This is not an issue of recast timers, or positioning, or rotation timing, or global cooldowns. All of those things are within the realm of control of the customer playing the character.
An artificial barrier in the UI specifically prohibiting temporally appropriate ability use at all, is not within the relam of control of the player.
Those four pseudo quotes above? That's are the sentiments of the customers of Chris Spears felt about the system AFTER they tested it.
Or to put it in terms you prefer, disposalist, nobody enjoys traveling by bus or plane. They both suck, for equally good reasons, because the negative customer experience is the same. :)
Vandraad said:You are right, but I think context makes an important distinction. Where as DnD did have a LAS, a locked one at that, it also wasn't a game that was programmed. A DM, a good one, would make adjustments to the adventure to ensure, above all things, that the players were having fun. If that means fudging dice rolls or otherwise dynamically changing any and all encounters so the group just didn't die and end the session, the DM did that. That type of luxury doesn't exist in an MMO. The DM, in an MMO, is a heartless, uncaring set of equations, algorhythms and RNGs.
Totally agree, I sort of consider the game designers to be the DM though. I know, once the program is set they aren't actively fudging things as needed, etc. But, they do get to create the program in the first place. My assumption is that our DM is designing the program in a way that works with their philosophy of a LAS.