*oneADseven So corpse rot would do essentially what a gravestone or corpse retrieval NPC would do. The only differences are it is automatic, and there is a waiting period.
Fine with me. I can see an argument for a corpse retrieval NPC that would obviate the wait if one accepts e.g. double the xp loss of the corpse rot but I won't make that argument and wouldn't necessarily agree with it.
Trasak said:I favored the idea of having basically save points at Inns.
Resting at an Inn sets your maximum exp loss point (current exp -20% of a level)
You can also insure your gear for 24 hours as a cash sink based on the item value.
At 10x insurance cost you can SoulBound an item that makes it no drop but never need to insure it again.
In the event of an unrecoverable death you can choose to restore to your save point. (Thematically it could be an NPC reviving you)
A forced revive returns all your insured items and removes the insured flag. Any insured item you trade loses the insured flag. All other items and cash go poof on a forced revive.
You revert to your saved point exp -20% of a level with the chance to delevel (maybe more than once if you got more then a level since you previously bound to an inn).
This leaves with an out if a brutally painful on one of those no win situations and encourages centralizing at inns before and after adventuring. This might help group assembly to create a rallying point.
i like this idea. running back to kids and paint, this is equivalent to me running around the house naked with water soluble purple paint, but instead of standing in a corner or cleaning up the mess by myself, my dad and mom, maybe my siblings will help me clean up my mess. thumbs up.
Exp loss on death.
Maybe some regained through ressurection from priests, but it is not the be-all and end-all because exp can always be gotten back, so let us all be happy with level loss and high exp loss and deal with it, it is how it is (dark souls, et all), The Devs have spoken, it is their game. Something we learned in EQ because the Devs made us mature with that mechanic, somethiong WoW took away becuase they thought they were being progressive, and has come full circle. its a good teaching mechanic, spare the rod spoil the child; don't touch it, its hot; don't put forks in an outlet; don't just ding a level and expect to go in a raid zone without a buffer, etc etc.
Item loss.
More of negative reinforcement, also causing many to rage quit, this isnt fortnight they are not listening to players anymore. you will lose your gear if you cant get it back and if you ned someone to get your corpse,m dont get that one bard that posted inthis forum how they could not wait to get sucha call to help onl to drag that persons corpse DEEPER and say whoops, cant find it, while laughing to themselves. Let the ostracicm to that poster begin even before the game is relased, maybe that bard will learn the power of what the amish fear, regardless.
Animate that insurance idea? and build in a money sink. "I cant afford to pay the weasel!": shut up, like not getting a buffer into level before going into a raid zone, so you know not to put a fork into the outlet at 4 years old. Maybe pay a weasel from the rogues guild that will go and gather your stuff and bring it to you. It will take time, maybe half a game day? what would make this better would be item decay but there is too much behind that. It would stop people from rage-quitting for loss of gear and a choice. Lose exp, get gear. Corpse run, regain exp fighting down and get gear that moment- adventure, or get rez and get gear. Either way gear is maintained which is the key to the issue I think.
@stellarmind
LoL, I can never tell what your responses mean when they are directed at me but usually find them hilarious when they are directed at others. Part of me thinks you think its a good idea and they other half makes me think you are saying it takes away all the risk. Its more like if you don't clean up after yourself you lose your paint and you get grounded for a while.
that the death penalty is only to lose a% exp
that could be debatable but only until you reach maximum lvl
Losing at a maximum level of 5%, 10% 15% experience is absolutely no penalty, if traveling is going to be a thing in the pantheon, people of maximum level when they want to leave a dungeon and return to the city the standard method it will be let kill to save travel time
I remember a raid in RIFT: plans of telara (the raid of Crucia)
you entered the raid and had a path to the right and another left we went for a platform killing trash mob and in the end there was a room with a boss when you killed the boss you had to turn around
people in my raid came out of the boss's room and threw themselves off the platform (you died and appeared at the entrance of the dungeon) the platform was a 10-15 seconds running to reach the entrance
when I asked them why they committed suicide
They replied that it was faster
what I told them is not faster you have to wait for those of us running
the death penalty in the RIFT was to lose 10% durability in the equipment that was recovered by repairing it in an npc for some gold
Trasak said:@stellarmind
LoL, I can never tell what your responses mean when they are directed at me but usually find them hilarious when they are directed at others. Part of me thinks you think its a good idea and they other half makes me think you are saying it takes away all the risk. Its more like if you don't clean up after yourself you lose your paint and you get grounded for a while.
that's a very good outlook though. sometimes people only see one side of the coin. humans are strange in that if we suffer alone, it builds resentment. if we suffer together without blame, we expontially grow stronger. reminds me of bootcamp when someone did something wrong, the drill instructor always asked for volunteers instead of making the one that messed up pay. he'd sit on the side like a trophy.
some peeople would get voluntold.
and then there's idiots like me that volunteer.
very funny when i look back at it. at the end of boot camp i remember the drill instructor taking me and the 2 other idiots (can't remember their names) that always volunteered and he said something that sticks with me till this day.
anyways, i'd adjust it something like if your in a party the exp loss isn't as great, so something like 50% solo(disclaimer: i speak in absolutes i know nothing about this and numbers can be adjusted. thank you for your understanding) and 5% less exp loss for each additional party member or something like that.
Elki said:If it is correct, it is things that happened in the EQ which I tried to explain even if your item is in your corpse and your corpse disappears in 7 RL days there were safety ropes provided by players who made it practically impossible to lose your things
This is only reinforcing my point. These "safety ropes" you refer to are gimmicks. There is no real sense of danger or loss because the game was designed in such a way that it was practically impossible to lose your things. It made sense to implement those safety ropes due to the severity of the potential loss but when it really comes down to it, that's just window dressing. It was a minor inconvenience depending on whether or not you had a rogue that could solve 99% of your corpse problems, or the necromancer than could solve 100% of them with a coffin. In the case of Pantheon, in accordance with stated design goals, it will be impossible to permanently lose your things. We don't know what that will look like, exactly, but permanent gear loss seems to be off of the table.
Elki said:Going back to a place you already accessed under the same conditions in less than 3-6 hours is 50% seriously?
The numbers would likely vary since the idea of "same conditions" would be dynamic. Again ... please refer back to the various abilities/keys I mentioned and consider how they could be gating mechanisms. Now ... consider how the world would need to be designed assuming that they are indeed gating mechanisms. It means that if you have a barrier that can only be broken by a warrior ... you have an important decision from a design perspective. Where does that destroyed barrier lead to? Is it a hidden area that can only be accessed through that barrier, or is it a shortcut to somewhere that is otherwise widely accessible? If it leads to an area that can only be accessed through that specific point ... think about what that means. It means you need a warrior to get in there. If you die in there, you will need a warrior to get in there again. Period. That would reinforce the idea of these abilities being used as gating mechanisms, and this is important in the context of the death penalty.
So from a design perspective ... is that desired? I would assume not ... so maybe instead of that barrier leading to somewhere exclusive, it's just a short-cut. Maybe all of the special navigation abilities (rogue rope, summoner raft/bridge, warrior bash, enchanter illusion, ranger wings, druid calming of the storm, etc) function this same way? Where none of them lead to anywhere special? This is what I was talking about when I said gear being attached to corpses would inhibit the potential of world design. If a player loses a corpse on an island that is only accessible with the help of a summoner who has ability X and key Y -- that will cause countless problems. You can replace summoner with any class and X/Y with any other letter of the alphabet. If I die on that island and the summoner has to log out ... having my gear stuck there is a big problem ... the kind of problem many players would avoid in the first place, which runs counter to the stated design goals of wanting players to take risks and explore new areas. Again ... loss aversion is desired, excessive risk aversion is not.
In short ... abilities/keys being used as a gating mechanism that enhances risk vs reward is fine, as long as players aren't forced to reopen those gates in order to continue playing the game. It should be possible for players to explore/adventure/journey somewhere very deep ... a point-of-no-potential-return-in-the-near-future, so to speak. These kinds of risks should exist, and players should be willing to make them. That won't happen if players are pigeonholed down a linear path of recovery. The world can be made more dangerous if it's design elements don't need to compensate for the idea that players must absolutely need to recover their corpses if they don't want to be naked. The margins for victory and meaningful passage to new areas will be more pronounced if players aren't spoiled with a "player safety net" that can get them out of trouble 99-100% of the time. It's perfectly okay to create areas of the game that are fraught with so much danger that you don't stand a reasonable chance of getting there, again, without the same resources you had the first time. Long cooldowns, powerful consumables, miracles/blessings from deities, or even the perfect storm of player abilities/keys. Remove the safety net (and the reason for needing that safety net in the first place) and the potential for finding "exotic locations" will increase dramatically.
Elki said:that the death penalty is only to lose a% exp
that could be debatable but only until you reach maximum lvl
Losing at a maximum level of 5%, 10% 15% experience is absolutely no penalty, if traveling is going to be a thing in the pantheon, people of maximum level when they want to leave a dungeon and return to the city the standard method it will be let kill to save travel time
I remember a raid in RIFT: plans of telara (the raid of Crucia)
you entered the raid and had a path to the right and another left we went for a platform killing trash mob and in the end there was a room with a boss when you killed the boss you had to turn around
people in my raid came out of the boss's room and threw themselves off the platform (you died and appeared at the entrance of the dungeon) the platform was a 10-15 seconds running to reach the entrance
when I asked them why they committed suicide
They replied that it was faster
what I told them is not faster you have to wait for those of us running
the death penalty in the RIFT was to lose 10% durability in the equipment that was recovered by repairing it in an npc for some gold
Please see my previous comment on concept vs implementation. Just because XP had so little value in Rift that players would commit suicide to save a little bit of time doesn't mean that XP would have that same kind of (non)value in Pantheon. You're using the idea that XP had very little value in Rift as the basis for your argument. That was a problem in Rift. You're implying that we would be inheriting that problem in Pantheon but there is no substance to that argument. Brad suggested years ago that restoring XP would offer a compelling reason to return to corpses. In the context of Pantheon ... what matters more? Comments from the Chief Creative Officer that discuss the potential penalty in this game ... or the unrelated problems from Rift?
oneADseven said:if you enter an area by the warrior of your group, you knocked down a wall with special ability regardless of whether it is a shortcut or is the only way to enter that special area
if the group dies inside the group will return with that same warrior and throw the wall again (he also has to recover the corpse)
That's why I say they are the same conditions
The things he described later were already happening at the EQ, there were doors that could only be opened if they had raised the ability to open locks
the plane of the sky and the plane of hate could only be reached through a wizzar with a special reagent to go to those places
there were areas that only used levitate or invis in kedge keep you needed items or spells to breathe underwater
in the RIFT he did not lose exp by dying he lost a 10% durability of the equipment that recovered gold payment to an npc
my point is that at the maximum level the experience is not relevant if in Pantheon only loses experience to die the people of the maximum level is not that they will not fear dying but will be used to save travel
((Please see my previous comment on concept vs implementation. Just because XP had so little value in Rift that players would commit suicide to save a little bit of time doesn't mean that XP would have that same kind of (non)value in Pantheon.))
Let us hope that the Pantheon penalty stings at all levels and the curve is properly tailored so thet it takes more or less the same amount of time at any level to regain the lost experience. Obviously with deleveling otherwise it really doesn't matter at maximum level.
Rift had no xp penalty at all and the item repair cost was trivial. Among its major weaknesses.
How about giving players a choice? When they die, a pop-up gives them 2 or 3 options. The easiest option, such as a re-spawn into the nearest town with all your gear, carries the heaviest XP penalty. The most difficult option, such as a naked corpse run, carries the lightest XP penalty. They might have to set a flag on your character to prevent exploits, such as not allowing a corpse summon or rez if you're on a naked corpse run. This would give people options that would allow them to take into account their current real-world situation, such as dying right before they were needing to call it a night, and not having time to do a CR.
Well since the reveal of Glyphs and they being bound to your character even after death then I am in the boat of CR with your gear staying on your corpse. A game doesn't even need to have a decay feature on the corpse anymore with todays technology and programming. EXP loss is a dumb and simplistic system that doesn't hold my interest. I have only ever respected and feared the enviroment when it came to losing my corpse and having to do a CR run. If I had to choose EXP or CR then I would say you don't lose exp and you would just have to run to your corpse. There is something about the corpse run that makes you respect the enviroment. Although I am a good player and won't die that much I suspect. the exp penalty will be meaningless to me.
I find it fascinating that the term "corpse run" rarely involved players running back to their corpse whenever it was left in an area that was actually dangerous. It shouldn't be possible for naked players to navigate through content that is supposed to be difficult for fully geared characters. I guess that's why the process has been infused with gimmicky safety nets that allow defeated players to sit on their rumps while others sneak around in relative safety to clean up their mess for them. If we're going to call it a corpse run then players should be required to run to their corpse. If we're going to act like there is a sense of urgency for doing that, there should actually be one. Permanent item loss has been ruled out in Pantheon so the "fear element" that people had in EQ will not exist here. Insert whatever gimmicky angle you want that guarantees that your gear will be returned to you and tell me how that makes you respect the environment. What exactly will players be afraid of? Spending some time without gear that will inevitably be returned to them? Sounds terrifyingly annoying.
To be fair, I have always looked at the acronym CR to mean "Corpse Retrieval" - whether that was running back and getting it yourself, having a monk/rogue drag it out of a dungeon, getting a necromancer to summon it, or asking another guild to come help secure the gate (in the case of a bad Fear break).
Those are EQ examples, but yeah - to me it always meant "retrieval", not "run". I know it's probably just semantics.
oneADseven said:I find it fascinating that the term "corpse run" rarely involved players running back to their corpse whenever it was left in an area that was actually dangerous. It shouldn't be possible for naked players to navigate through content that is supposed to be difficult for fully geared characters. I guess that's why the process has been infused with gimmicky safety nets that allow defeated players to sit on their rumps while others sneak around in relative safety to clean up their mess for them. If we're going to call it a corpse run then players should be required to run to their corpse. If we're going to act like there is a sense of urgency for doing that, there should actually be one. Permanent item loss has been ruled out in Pantheon so the "fear element" that people had in EQ will not exist here. Insert whatever gimmicky angle you want that guarantees that your gear will be returned to you and tell me how that makes you respect the environment. What exactly will players be afraid of? Spending some time without gear that will inevitably be returned to them? Sounds terrifyingly annoying.
snake? snake?! SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE........
to add, i'm naked doing metal gear stuff to get back to my body, to reequip my gear only to wipe again, to do the same thing over because the tank doesn't know that he needs to taunt and pop a defensive buff even though we've explained to him 3 times, but we can't replace him since it took 4 hours to find this potato tank and we are trying to get our glyph attunement which only has an hour left to complete the weekly quest. oh i forget to mention he's hotmiccing and his mom is telling him to go to bed and he's screaming for another hour.
the healer can't make it back because she already has low hp and gets one shotted by a pat and we have an elitist rogue calling us all idiots for not being able to get back to our bodies as fast as he can.
the wizard broke his gear so he's back in town fixing his crap because he didn't pick up clothier as his profession to fix he crap out in the field.
the ranger gets pissed and decides to pull everything on me and fd hearths.
the whole party disbands and now i'm stuck trying to cr naked back to my body without any help.
cr naked is fine for dark souls single player games which mobs don't respawn.
i forget where i was going with this but it was a fun story i thought i should share.
stellarmind said:oneADseven said:I find it fascinating that the term "corpse run" rarely involved players running back to their corpse whenever it was left in an area that was actually dangerous. It shouldn't be possible for naked players to navigate through content that is supposed to be difficult for fully geared characters. I guess that's why the process has been infused with gimmicky safety nets that allow defeated players to sit on their rumps while others sneak around in relative safety to clean up their mess for them. If we're going to call it a corpse run then players should be required to run to their corpse. If we're going to act like there is a sense of urgency for doing that, there should actually be one. Permanent item loss has been ruled out in Pantheon so the "fear element" that people had in EQ will not exist here. Insert whatever gimmicky angle you want that guarantees that your gear will be returned to you and tell me how that makes you respect the environment. What exactly will players be afraid of? Spending some time without gear that will inevitably be returned to them? Sounds terrifyingly annoying.
snake? snake?! SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE........
to add, i'm naked doing metal gear stuff to get back to my body, to reequip my gear only to wipe again, to do the same thing over because the tank doesn't know that he needs to taunt and pop a defensive buff even though we've explained to him 3 times, but we can't replace him since it took 4 hours to find this potato tank and we are trying to get our glyph attunement which only has an hour left to complete the weekly quest. oh i forget to mention he's hotmiccing and his mom is telling him to go to bed and he's screaming for another hour.
the healer can't make it back because she already has low hp and gets one shotted by a pat and we have an elitist rogue calling us all idiots for not being able to get back to our bodies as fast as he can.
the wizard broke his gear so he's back in town fixing his crap because he didn't pick up clothier as his profession to fix he crap out in the field.
the ranger gets pissed and decides to pull everything on me and fd hearths.
the whole party disbands and now i'm stuck trying to cr naked back to my body without any help.
cr naked is fine for dark souls single player games which mobs don't respawn.
i forget where i was going with this but it was a fun story i thought i should share.
To me your story speaks to #Communitymatters. The folks in your group would go on my don't play with again list. Then when you /ooc Need help with CR and you get some volunteers (because I have faith in the overall Pantheon community), the volunteers who help get the corpse back go on my friends list and maybe I have just made some new great friends!
Is that enough 'sting'?
It is very interesting your proposal would say that it is too painful I would leave the debuff in a maximum of 20% or maybe it could be raised to 30%
but it could happen that characters will be unable to perform their function in an exp groups and never be able to recover the debit of exp
Even so, I believe that the CR is a very valuable resource to make community
HemlockReaper said:Every death Post reaching max level should contain a permanent debuff to all stats and attributes, thereby encouraging retirement and continuing on with the progeny system.
might as well make death permanent
make sure you have plenty of kids that act as a "save point"
i got a great video for this
Well, that's certainly hardcore, HemlockReaper. I don't think it would be popular, though, as a mechanic. :)
Elki, I think in practice you would have to cap the debuff below 100% (even at 99%) but the consequence of doing so is that someone could still be 1% effective, even after infinite deaths.
Which is why I don't think you should cap the XP debt percentage, so that death will always be something to avoid, no matter what level you are, or what content you're doing, or how many times you've died.
Personally? I would probably go with 5 deaths = 50% debuff, rather than 10 deaths = 50%, but I wasn't sure where the denizens would land, opinion-wise, so went with a softer touch, for the first pass.
I think any system that utilizes a persistent debuff like this would also create some interesting emergent behavior regarding mult-group, instanced-but-not-instances, or temporally limited content; specifically, raiding or bosses.
If you failed more than 5 times, do you really want to keep trying, being 25% (or 50%!) less effective? Probably best to go clear that debt before you try again..
I meant limiting the efficiency debuff
that of experience debt would be unlimited
well I understand that if you are a wizzard and you have a 100% efficiency debuff your damage spells will be 0 damage
I also assume that there is no effective way to earn exp or recover debt from exp other than killing mobs
maybe it could be implemented that you recover debt from exp by washing the dishes in an inn hahahaha
or with other activities like fishing or working tradeskill
but if my assumptions are correct to have more than -30% effectiveness it would be too much
vjek said:Ok ok, how about:
Is that enough 'sting' ?
So those death counts..are they cumulative throughout your entire adventuring career? Or only per level? Is there a timeframe where, if you went long enough without a death, that the counter would remove one or more? If I didn't play for a month would it reset to 0?
vjek said:Personally? I would probably go with 5 deaths = 50% debuff, rather than 10 deaths = 50%, but I wasn't sure where the denizens would land, opinion-wise, so went with a softer touch, for the first pass.
I think any system that utilizes a persistent debuff like this would also create some interesting emergent behavior regarding mult-group, instanced-but-not-instances, or temporally limited content; specifically, raiding or bosses.
If you failed more than 5 times, do you really want to keep trying, being 25% (or 50%!) less effective? Probably best to go clear that debt before you try again..
I could get on board with something like this. Rather than deleveling, any lost XP that would take you below 0% is instead converted to debt. The accrual of debt has a stacking debuff, up to 30% loss of efficiency. The amount of debt that can be stacked is infinite and players who have the debt debuff are noticeable; some sort of visual flair that highlights a performance handicap for that player.
If players don't want to see their performance handicapped then they should stay on the positive side of the line. An XP buffer can be built up to 99.9% into max level which allows players an opportunity to attempt content multiple times without automatically falling into debuff territory.
As far as the numbers go, I'd prefer to see 5% XP loss upon death (which cannot be recovered) and another 10% attached to a corpse that will decay after X hours. Corpses cannot be summoned or dragged.
You're absolutely right about the type of behavior that would result from this sort of system. Players would have no choice but to respect the environment and if they get out of hand, they will dig themselves into a hole that would make content more difficult. When you stand to lose something valuable (XP would be, in this case) then players will avoid senseless deaths at all costs. For all of those who suggest that XP loss would be inconsequential ... good luck finding a group for any challenging content when you're only 70% efficient. Many players wouldn't want to burden their group with that sort of deficiency because content would be tuned for characters that operate at 100%. Willfully bringing someone with a performance handicap would be subjecting everybody else involved to additional/unnecessary risk. It would be common courtesy to work off debt and have a buffer before trying to join up with other players to do anything difficult.
oneADseven said:vjek said:Personally? I would probably go with 5 deaths = 50% debuff, rather than 10 deaths = 50%, but I wasn't sure where the denizens would land, opinion-wise, so went with a softer touch, for the first pass.
I think any system that utilizes a persistent debuff like this would also create some interesting emergent behavior regarding mult-group, instanced-but-not-instances, or temporally limited content; specifically, raiding or bosses.
If you failed more than 5 times, do you really want to keep trying, being 25% (or 50%!) less effective? Probably best to go clear that debt before you try again..I could get on board with something like this. Rather than deleveling, any lost XP that would take you below 0% is instead converted to debt. The accrual of debt has a stacking debuff, up to 30% loss of efficiency. The amount of debt that can be stacked is infinite and players who have the debt debuff are noticeable; some sort of visual flair that highlights a performance handicap for that player.
If players don't want to see their performance handicapped then they should stay on the positive side of the line. An XP buffer can be built up to 99.9% into max level which allows players an opportunity to attempt content multiple times without automatically falling into debuff territory.
As far as the numbers go, I'd prefer to see 5% XP loss upon death (which cannot be recovered) and another 10% attached to a corpse that will decay after X hours. Corpses cannot be summoned or dragged.
You're absolutely right about the type of behavior that would result from this sort of system. Players would have no choice but to respect the environment and if they get out of hand, they will dig themselves into a hole that would make content more difficult. When you stand to lose something valuable (XP would be, in this case) then players will avoid senseless deaths at all costs. For all of those who suggest that XP loss would be inconsequential ... good luck finding a group for any challenging content when you're only 70% efficient. Many players wouldn't want to burden their group with that sort of deficiency because content would be tuned for players at 100% efficiency and nobody wants to fall on the wrong side of that line.
a reversed rested xp huh?
