Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Death as a concept

    • 696 posts
    September 10, 2019 10:41 AM PDT

    @Stellarmind

     

    Dunno lol maybe.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 10, 2019 10:41 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    September 10, 2019 10:45 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Watemper said:

    You specifically said that you talked to EQ players who said exp loss was the harshest penalty over corpse running.  Then you said that cleric rezzes made exp trivial. If you don't see the problem with that line of thinking then you are on your own on that one. It is quite obvious.

    I stand by what I said.  XP loss was a critical aspect of the penalty, and one that many players feared ... until the point where it was trivialized.  As soon as the 97% cleric rez became available, the fear of XP loss basically disappeared from the game.  Is it really that hard to see why?  Clerics literally transformed XP loss into 3% of its original potency!

     

    Well what you said is wrong lol. I could say the same thing about corpse recovery until the time necros...very late in the game, could summon corpses. Or very late in the game when FD worked most of the time and rogues had their sneak skills leveled up to where it wouldn't fail..or invis not randomly drop off frequently. I never saw anyone feel bad for anyone who lost exp..but a corpse lost people sympathized and would give gear away to people who went through that. Hardly anyone went out of their way to help you gain exp back...but corpses were on another level.

    • 2752 posts
    September 10, 2019 10:48 AM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Not really. Don't know what EQ players you talked too, but there is a reason why you still lose exp in EQ, but keep your corpse now. Corpse retrievals were much worse than exp lost. The Plane of Fear zone is a good indication of that. Many people got killed in there with no way of getting their corpse back. GMs had to go in and get their corpse for them because of how unfair and brutal that zone was at the start. No one cared about exp that I can remember when going into that zone..they just wanted their bodies back.

    And yeah. clerics rezzes were very popular and trivialized exp...which is kind of redundant to say when you claim EQ players hates exp loss more than corpse retrievals. which goes to show that the people you talked too are either lying or you are double talking here.

    Also you need to take into account that people,especially at the early levels, didn't have those rez connections, or even knew about the necro summoning corpse method. Most EQ players just jumped in with no knowlege of the game. This made the corpse retrieval way more scary than usual. However, the later levels when you knew everything was a different story. Still, those times you couldn't get to your corpse, like plane of fear, proves that the corpse is way more important than the exp...by alot. 

    Corpse retrievals were not worse than lost exp in the vast majority of situations (planes were a very rare exception), and getting to ones corpse was most often an extremely simple task. Death was feared because losing that exp was a pain in the ass and a direct loss of invested time and it often put players in a situation where they had a couple hours to try to find/beg/pay clerics to restore that lost time. 

     

    I would much prefer Pantheon be far more challenging than EQ, meaning players lose more (unrecoverable) exp upon death but retain their gear so they must fight their way back to wherever they may have died (with incentive to do so via some xp return that stays on a corpse or otherwise). Death is a mistake (a rather simple one that is likely to happen more often than in EQ if Pantheon is actually challenging) and it shouldn't be overly punative (I know some people want it to be a gut punch not a slap) or set players up for even more potential loss. Then of course you have the fact that required corpse runs are not equally punative across all races/classes, casters that can bind anywhere are spared much of the burden as are those with their own stealth/invis or otherwise. 

    • 696 posts
    September 10, 2019 10:58 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Watemper said:

    Not really. Don't know what EQ players you talked too, but there is a reason why you still lose exp in EQ, but keep your corpse now. Corpse retrievals were much worse than exp lost. The Plane of Fear zone is a good indication of that. Many people got killed in there with no way of getting their corpse back. GMs had to go in and get their corpse for them because of how unfair and brutal that zone was at the start. No one cared about exp that I can remember when going into that zone..they just wanted their bodies back.

    And yeah. clerics rezzes were very popular and trivialized exp...which is kind of redundant to say when you claim EQ players hates exp loss more than corpse retrievals. which goes to show that the people you talked too are either lying or you are double talking here.

    Also you need to take into account that people,especially at the early levels, didn't have those rez connections, or even knew about the necro summoning corpse method. Most EQ players just jumped in with no knowlege of the game. This made the corpse retrieval way more scary than usual. However, the later levels when you knew everything was a different story. Still, those times you couldn't get to your corpse, like plane of fear, proves that the corpse is way more important than the exp...by alot. 

    Corpse retrievals were not worse than lost exp in the vast majority of situations (planes were a very rare exception), and getting to ones corpse was most often an extremely simple task. Death was feared because losing that exp was a pain in the ass and a direct loss of invested time and it often put players in a situation where they had a couple hours to try to find/beg/pay clerics to restore that lost time. 

     

    I would much prefer Pantheon be far more challenging than EQ, meaning players lose more (unrecoverable) exp upon death but retain their gear so they must fight their way back to wherever they may have died (with incentive to do so via some xp return that stays on a corpse or otherwise). Death is a mistake (a rather simple one that is likely to happen more often than in EQ if Pantheon is actually challenging) and it shouldn't be overly punative (I know some people want it to be a gut punch not a slap) or set players up for even more potential loss. Then of course you have the fact that required corpse runs are not equally punative across all races/classes, casters that can bind anywhere are spared much of the burden as are those with their own stealth/invis or otherwise. 

     

    If no one was near to rez you, you had a much more difficult time getting your corpse back. Especially if you were traveling to places and died along the way...like the famous Qeynos to freeport run. Would take you much longer to get your corpse back than it was to regaining the exp you lost back. Most dungeons were packed soo you could bob and weave through to get your corpse by yourself, but if you went to a dungeon that wasn't as populated you would have a much tougher time getting your corpse back. I never once met someone in EQ who feared a place because of exp..it has been 100% about if they die in their..how hard is it to get my corpse. Especially at the mid levels when you traveled alot.  Still there is a reason why you get your gear now when you die in EQ...go on their forums and ask. It is quite simple to see the proof. Did it myself. It took too much time to get your corpse back. However, it does depend on what class you played.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 10, 2019 11:02 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 10, 2019 11:47 AM PDT

    losing experience was only painful in the hell lvl
    or when you were going down a level where you had bought new spells
    and at the highest level it was insignificant (maybe without a 96% resurrection it was otherwise)

    Of course the resistance to pain in each person is different for some, it may be that losing 5% of exp is something unacceptable and would avoid it at all costs.
    and for others it would be so ridiculous that they would die to save travel time

    • 4 posts
    September 11, 2019 2:17 AM PDT
    As a former EQ player up to GoD I can only say that EXP loss was never something I considered as a threat, it was an annoyance but absolutely tolerable. Loss of corpse was a real threat however. It certainly was not part of your daily gaming experience, but it was certainly something that was outstanding and part of the success of Eq (imho), as strange as it sounds. I would love to see a similar not watered down system in place. Also not in davor of over complicated buff systems and alike systems I have seen suggested here. Go with the KiSS principles.
    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2019 3:28 AM PDT

    For me it comes down to this: What impact does gear-on-corpse have?

    Does it make you fear death and value victory more?

    Does it make you want to get back on the horse and try a what killed you or is it simply forcing you?

    Does it make you fear exploration and promote meta-games of camping in places that are easily reached?  Are those meta-games strategic and fun or frustrating and restrictive?

    Does it make you leave useful/valuable stuff in the bank with all that implies re. running back and forth more regularly?

    Does it make you have valuable interactions with other players to retrieve corpses?

    Does it make you feel you should be a class that can more easily retrieve your own corpse and resentful of others?

    You can see some of my questions are pointed.  I *do* want to see harsh death penalty, but, for me, I'm thinking the whole gear-on-corpse thing is needlessly restrictive and weird.  I don't think that's the only way, or a good way, of giving respect to death.

    I'd like to see heavy XP penalties (at all levels), but I see that XP loss isn't always the fear generator it could be and I'd like to see some kind of 'diminishing of your soul' that means you *strongly* want/need to retrieve your corpse, re-attempting what just defeated you, but without the huge and strange frustration and limitation of doing it naked.

    As I type this I wonder if those so in favour of the EQ-style naked corpse run were casters in EQ who retained most of their power and could move invisibly in that situation or warriors who were at about 5% ability when naked.  A death debuff would be a whole lot more consistent and if you still have to get to your corpse to fix it, the same effect applies.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 11, 2019 3:36 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 4:30 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    As I type this I wonder if those so in favour of the EQ-style naked corpse run were casters in EQ who retained most of their power and could move invisibly in that situation or warriors who were at about 5% ability when naked.  A death debuff would be a whole lot more consistent and if you still have to get to your corpse to fix it, the same effect applies.

    I agree with your post in general but I wanted to touch on this part specifically.  The death penalty should be consistent regardless of class/archetype and naked corpse runs don't really provide that.  Casters being able to bind wherever they want provides a sizable disparity, as does their ability to do damage from ranged, or with their pets, while not taking damage.  Invisibility certainly helps as well.  To that end, I would suggest that the "spellbook" that allows characters to cast spells/abilities is a physical item that would also be left on the corpse.  Make it so all classes are equally helpless and useless while they are naked and see how long that lasts.  I say this a bit sarcastically as it sounds horrible and still doesn't solve many of the other issues that have been discussed in this thread.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 11, 2019 4:48 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 11, 2019 5:45 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

       Make it so all classes are equally helpless and useless while they are naked and see how long that lasts.

    So we don't want interdependence between classes anymore?

    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2019 6:00 AM PDT

    Elki said:

    oneADseven said:

       Make it so all classes are equally helpless and useless while they are naked and see how long that lasts.

    So we don't want interdependence between classes anymore?

    All classes being equally helpless would make interdependence *more* likely not less.

    In EQ because mages were much less effected by being without gear and could even go invisible to avoid trouble while retrieving a corpse, mages (and others with similar advantages) would often not need to seek anyone's help in corpse retrieval, whereas classes like warriors would be all but helpless without gear and be forced to seek help.

    Some system that has more equality where all classes need to seek help would be better/fairer and might lead to a more even opinion of the corpse run idea in general when it comes to feedback in pre-alpha testing, etc.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 11, 2019 6:01 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 11, 2019 6:54 AM PDT

    All classes being equally helpless would make interdependence *more* likely not less.

     

    no it's not true if another class can do exactly the same thing that I don't need it
    more people may be needed but no different classes therefore you kill the interdependence between classes

     

    In EQ because mages were much less effected by being without gear and could even go invisible to avoid trouble while retrieving a corpse, mages (and others with similar advantages) would often not need to seek anyone's help in corpse retrieval, whereas classes like warriors would be all but helpless without gear and be forced to seek help.

     

    in the same way the warriors were much more affected by bringing better equipment than a magician, the warrior was much more desired in the groups ,most likely, when a warrior dies, he is already in a group and does not need to ask for help, which was not the same with a magician

     

    Some system that has more equality where all classes need to seek help would be better/fairer and might lead to a more even opinion of the corpse run idea in general when it comes to feedback in pre-alpha testing, etc.

     

    I suppose this would already be a matter of taste. I want totally different classes with different roles with strong advantages in some aspects and also strong disadvantages in others and for me there is where the balance lies and not in that all classes are equal or can do The same

    • 696 posts
    September 11, 2019 7:40 AM PDT

    I think the harshest exp penalty I have seen was with Diablo 2. Being in the mid 90s and dying would set you back a few days worth of good grinding. No rez. Was pretty brutal..probably more than any other MMO when it came to experience lost...Never did I once fear the enviroment because of this...or really cared. I died soo little I progressed and made it to 99 eventually...but I never was scared. However, in that same exact game when you would play pvp with full inventories soo if you died you dropped everything was a real heart racer. Not saying that is the direction an MMO should go, I know some of you like to jump the gun and go to the extremes, but not having your gear is a scary thing sometimes.

     

    It's funny that people are against it and hate it as a penalty...but that is what makes it such a good penalty. A penalty isn't suppose to be something you like. I never liked corpse runs. I hated them. As a Paladin I dreaded dying...but later on once I got into other MMOs I realized that I wasn't scared of anything. I never cared about the consequence even with exp loss only. The corpse run just has something more to it. And i think if people hate it...its a good penalty to me...and one 

    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 7:47 AM PDT

    The emphasis is supposed to be on "group interdependence."  As such, recovering a corpse should be a "group endeavor."  I believe in the philosophy that each class should be able to bring something different to the table and therein lies the issue when it comes to the "naked corpse run" death penalty.  What exactly does a gear dependent class (with no gear) bring to the table on a corpse run other than an arse that needs to be carried?  Disproportionately punishing gear-centric classes makes them more of a liability than an asset.  I plan on playing a warrior and I want to have an active role (based around my class) that can help facilitate the recovery.  Swapping gear with XP on the corpse would accomplish that.  Allowing each class to meaningfully contribute toward corpse recovery increases a true sense of interdependence.  Sitting around and waiting for other people to do all of the work doesn't sound the least bit engaging.

     

    I'd cite the following from https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/

     

    "Immerse yourself in group-focused, intensely social game play using classes that complement each other, encouraging teamwork."

    "Play classes that have meaningful and defined roles such as Tank, Healer, DPS or Utility (crowd and encounter control). Class identity and group interdependence is key!"


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 11, 2019 8:00 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    September 11, 2019 7:58 AM PDT

    Warriors will be useless in several instances in the game. That will just be one of them. It's okay to rely on people.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 11, 2019 7:59 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 8:01 AM PDT

    Active involvement would make the penalty more visceral.  Having a death penalty that puts certain classes on the sideline is akin to punishing a child for having a dirty bedroom  --  not by making them clean up the mess themselves, but putting them in the corner while the parents clean it up for them.  I don't think that's teaching them a very good lesson as it doesn't promote the idea of them taking responsibility for their actions.  I think it's a mistake to promote the idea that it's "okay to be useless and rely on other people to clean up your mess."

    • 696 posts
    September 11, 2019 8:05 AM PDT

    Then don't be useless and get a second gear set. We did that a lot. As a Paladin I had 3 to 4 after my first and only corpse lost.

    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 9:11 AM PDT

    From thread:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty/view/post_id/59612

    Aradune said:

    Whew, awesome thread, great ideas, etc.

    As I've stated before, the 'severity' of Pantheon's death penalty will likely lie in between two 'extremes':  Vanilla EQ and Vanilla VG.  We need to find that sweet spot in-between the two.  Totally naked corpse runs are probably too extreme.  But, on the other end of the pendulum, trivializing death penalties leads to all sorts of problems.  Players don't respect the environment, aren't encouraged to play seriously and with forethought, etc.  At the same time, if we go too far the other way, many players will want to avoid death to such a great degree that exploration, trying new tactics, taking on that formidable boss-mob, etc. will suffer.  

    The goal, of course, is to come up with a death penalty that is desired by our target audience.  That's easier said than done, though, because even though you all are more often on the same page than not when it comes to design and mechanics, there are a few categories where there is not an obvious or clear mandate from our community.  The death penalty, of course, is one of these.  

    So when it comes to situations like this, here is our general approach:  

    Define the two extremes.  Set up the system where it's relatively easy to 'tune' between these two extremes.  Implement during alpha and beta the system and adjust the 'tuning'.  Watch the players, listen to the community, etc.  Adjust accordingly and, hopefully, narrow things down.

    This is, of course, a great example of why a long beta is so important to MMORPG development.  Opinions and plans are great, but often until players are actually experiencing these critical mechanics and systems we developers need to wait and watch (and not commit to specifics).  

    So that will be our approach -- try the spectrum out in alpha and beta, listen to the community, experience it ourselves, and slowly but surely iron out the details.

    Lastly, in the event that the community becomes truly split on something as critical as the Death Penalty and its associated mechanics, we always have the option to implement variations on the theme depending on the server/shard.  Although it's far too early to speculate with any certainty, the penalty for dying in Pantheon may turn out to be something that becomes part of our Alternate Ruleset Servers, with the details and severity depending on which server/shard you've chosen to play on.

    I think I'll hold out hope that the death penalty falls somewhere between the two extremes, as suggested.  While "probably" isn't the same thing as "certainly"  --  it does give some insight on how one of the extremes will probably be defined.  It has been suggested that XP loss on corpses was being considered.  XP loss happens to be something that can be "easily tuned."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 11, 2019 9:15 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2019 9:56 AM PDT

    Elki said:

    All classes being equally helpless would make interdependence *more* likely not less.

     

    no it's not true if another class can do exactly the same thing that I don't need it
    more people may be needed but no different classes therefore you kill the interdependence between classes

     

    In EQ because mages were much less effected by being without gear and could even go invisible to avoid trouble while retrieving a corpse, mages (and others with similar advantages) would often not need to seek anyone's help in corpse retrieval, whereas classes like warriors would be all but helpless without gear and be forced to seek help.

     

    in the same way the warriors were much more affected by bringing better equipment than a magician, the warrior was much more desired in the groups ,most likely, when a warrior dies, he is already in a group and does not need to ask for help, which was not the same with a magician

     

    Some system that has more equality where all classes need to seek help would be better/fairer and might lead to a more even opinion of the corpse run idea in general when it comes to feedback in pre-alpha testing, etc.

     

    I suppose this would already be a matter of taste. I want totally different classes with different roles with strong advantages in some aspects and also strong disadvantages in others and for me there is where the balance lies and not in that all classes are equal or can do The same

    To be fair and on a par regarding something as fundamental as what death means is not unreasonable and, even then, does not have to mean "the same" or not needing dependance.

    • 168 posts
    September 11, 2019 10:27 AM PDT

    I have always loved this topic because everyone wants such different experiences from their gameplay.  I think a wonderful idea would be make servers with different rulesets to allow anyone to try them out and land where they best feel at home.

    Some proposed rulesets sorts by difficulty could be:

    Carebear

    • no corpse rot
    • mild experience loss on death
    • keep all bound/unbound items on death
    • corpses can return most, if not all, of lost exp on rez.

    Normal

    • no corpse rot
    • moderate exp loss on death
    • can bind worn equipment (preventing future sales of items) to keep them on death.
    • corpses can return partial exp lost on rez

    Challenge

    • corpse rot timer
    • heft exp loss on death
    • all items stay on corpse on death
    • corpses return minimal exp lost on rez

    Hardcore

    • short (3-12 hours) corpse rot timer
    • you lose 1 full level on death
    • your corpse is fully lootable by everyone (including mobs if that's easily programmable ;) )
    • no exp returned on rez.

    Note: these are just fun ideas and are obviously not full or even ideal rulesets.  I am just proposing the idea of having different servers to help accomidate everyone's desire to get what they want out of the game.  I truly miss the days of having to trek back through WK and NK to retreive my poison consumed corpse from those evil EK spiders.

    • 73 posts
    September 11, 2019 11:08 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    To be fair and on a par regarding something as fundamental as what death means is not unreasonable and, even then, does not have to mean "the same" or not needing dependance.

    It depends entirely on the game you want to make if you want to make a game with different classes with strong advantages and disadvantages
    it is completely unreasonable that argument completely ruined the classes and the IMO game

     

    pd: could someone explain in depth how the death penalty was in the VG please

    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 11:43 AM PDT

    Elki said:

    could someone explain in depth how the death penalty was in the VG please

    https://vanguard.fandom.com/wiki/Combat

     


    Altars and Resurrection

    When you’re killed, you have two choices. First, you can lie there and wait for an ally or passing player character to use a resurrection spell on you. This is the best option if such a healer is at hand. You will be raised near the spot where you were killed (watch out for hostile creatures that might try to ambush you while still weak from resurrection) and you won’t have to worry about recovering your body.
    If there’s nobody around to raise you from the dead, you can click on Release Your Body and raise yourself at the nearest altar. This option drains more Experience than second-party resurrection, but you can mitigate some of this experience loss by recovering your body (see below).

    If you lie dead for 10 minutes without being raised, your body will automatically release to the nearest altar. New Characters. Note that new characters (Levels 1-10) do not suffer experience penalties from death, nor do they leave behind bodies when they release to an altar. As soon as you reach Level 11 you will start to suffer body loss and experience penalties.



    Body and Equipment Recovery

    If you release your body to resurrect at an altar, you leave your body behind in the place you died. Your body is marked with a tombstone, and you automatically have its location recorded in your Quest Journal.


    If you return to the place of your death and recover your body (double-click or right-click on your tombstone) you will regain some lost Experience.
    It takes a few uninterrupted seconds to recover a body in the wild, so make sure the area is secure before you double-click on your tombstone.
    There is no limit to the number of tombstones that you have, but tombstones will disappear after a while (two hours). If you lost any equipment at a tombstone that has disappeared, you can buy it back at any altar, for a percentage of its original value.


    Altar Recovery. As an alternative to visiting your gravesite to retrieve your belongings, you may also have your remains summoned to you at an altar. The gods do demand a high price for this service, so don’t expect this option to be easy on your pocketbook.


    Soulbinding. Most equipment in the game is “Bindable”. This means is that you may use a Binding Crystal (obtainable at General Goods Merchants throughout Telon) on an item, which will cause it to become Soulbound. Soulbound items may not be traded to other players, but when you die and appear at an altar, your soulbound items will still be with you rather than at the site of your death.

     

    Experience Penalties and Debt

    When you die, you lose some of the Adventuring experience you have accrued. This is true whether you are raised on site or release to an altar. Recovering your body can reduce this penalty, but won’t eliminate it. You can’t lose an earned level due to experience penalties, but if you forfeit all the experience you’ve earned in your current level, you will start to go into experience debt. This debt will have to be worked off with new earned experience before you can resume progress towards the next level. Currently you respawn without equipment. All of your equipment that is either soulbound (magically linked to you) or in your saddlebags will still be with you. You have the option of paying an additional penalty at the altar to retrieve your belongings back, or re-equipping (with gear in your saddlebags, or wherever else you can get it) and doing a corpse recovery. Recovering your corpse will always be the better choice, if you have the time and resources to get back to where you died. Paying the penalty and regaining your equipment at the altar forfeits the opportunity to get experience back by recovering your corpse.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 11, 2019 11:43 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    September 11, 2019 1:37 PM PDT

    They penalty should fit the crime, should sting equally to all no matter race/class, and shouldn't result in forced gameplay loops. Dying isn't an egregious sin and often enough isn't even the result of personal mistakes (especially in a challenging and massively multiplayer open world game with all sorts of other players around) even though the punishment is very personal. 

     

    Experience (time) loss should be enough, coupled with threat of losing levels. "Corpse" runs should be for recovering a portion of lost experience (time), but should also be left up to the player should they decide to cut their losses and go somewhere else depending on their available play time and the circumstances of their death. That said I am in favor of the amount of experience up for return capping at 50% (even with a resurrect), and if you died before reaching a previous corpse all the experience from the first would be lost permanently. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at September 11, 2019 1:43 PM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    September 11, 2019 1:56 PM PDT

    I'm going to put in my two cents.  Some are going to agree and some are going to disagree.  I'm good with both, because at the end of the day it will be what it will be, and at that time I will decide if it's something that I can "live with" or if I will abandon Pantheon because of a perceived "easy cop out".

     

    I liked the death mechanic in EQ; MUCH more-so than the death mechanic in Vanguard or EQ2.  Death should sting.  Corpse retrievals should be a thing and they should be non-trivial.  They should also matter.  Experience should be lost at death.  A certain percentage of that should be retrieved when you retrieve your corpse, but not all of it.  If you do not retrieve your corpse, you perma-lose that experience, and will need to regain it through adventuring.  Your gear should remain on your corpse.  If you do not retrieve your corpose, the gear should poof.  For the purposes of this debate, corpse retrieval includes resurrection, "magical corpse retrieval" such as Necro coffin et al, and revive.  There should be a time-limit on your corpse before it poofs.  It should be longer than 24 hours.  72 hours to a week feels about right to me.

    Nobody that I ever knew, and I played EQ for around five years, EQ2 for around two years, and Vanguard for a year, ever had an issue with doing something "because we might die and need a CR'.  Hell, sometimes we just charged in and consequences be damned, because that's what you do sometimes.  Never once was the penalty seen to be "overly harsh" and a "threat to adventuring because ouch".  If I had a dollar for every solo corpse retrieval I had to do, I could have tripled my donation to Pantheon.

    I only played Rogues.  Ever.  In modern terms, Rogues were is now called a "glass cannon".  They could deal alot of damage, but not take alot.  Supposedly you couldn't solo a rogue, but I used to do it very frequently, especially at lower level when the server populations were alot lower than after Velious came out.  Never once did I think to myself, "Well crap.  The death penalty is too harsh.  Maybe I shouldn't do that."  I just did it.  It doesn't make me special.  I was far from the only one.

    Maybe that's part of the problem.  As MMOs progressed, the "MMO Community" got soft and risk averse because things were "so easy" in later MMOs compared to the beginning.  Maybe it's time that we, as an "MMO Community" get back to what it was about MMOs we loved.  Risk vs reward.  Guts and glory.  I remember when The Sleeper was first unlocked on Bristlebane.  It was legendary.  I remember seeing the Uber Guilds walking around.  Club Fu.  Veeshan's Fury.  More that I can't remember.  You knew that these guys were people busted their ass to get there.  They didn't worry about "OMG, death is so harsh!!".  They put on their big boy pants and just did it.  And became legendary; all the more-so BECAUSE death was "painful".  I had the luck to raid with some of these Uber Guilds despite not being a member of any of them.  These guys wiped on a regular basis.  They dug in and did it.  I' old, by gamer terms, When EQ came out, I was 32.  Maybe that's the difference.  I don't know.  I *DO* know that I have very few memories about things that happened in EQ2 or Vanguard, or even much in the way of feelings, nostalgia or otherwise.  Arguably, EQ2 and Vanguard were "much easier" than EQ was when it was in its heyday.  All of my fond memories are of things that happened in EQ.  Obsticles that were overcome.  Deaths avenged.  Enmies vanquished.  Dungeons conquered.

     

    Something to think about.

    • 3237 posts
    September 11, 2019 3:03 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    They penalty should fit the crime, should sting equally to all no matter race/class, and shouldn't result in forced gameplay loops. Dying isn't an egregious sin and often enough isn't even the result of personal mistakes (especially in a challenging and massively multiplayer open world game with all sorts of other players around) even though the punishment is very personal. 

     

    Experience (time) loss should be enough, coupled with threat of losing levels. "Corpse" runs should be for recovering a portion of lost experience (time), but should also be left up to the player should they decide to cut their losses and go somewhere else depending on their available play time and the circumstances of their death. That said I am in favor of the amount of experience up for return capping at 50% (even with a resurrect), and if you died before reaching a previous corpse all the experience from the first would be lost permanently. 

    I would add that meaningful travel should also be an important consideration of the death penalty.  I am not a fan of players respawning at the "nearest altar."  That shrinks the size of the world and the sensation of feeling like you can go on an adventure that is far away from "home."  If a player manages to complete a long journey to the other side of the continent, they should strongly consider binding there if they have any intention of sticking around for a while.  If you die while still having your bind point on the other side of the world then you should be at the mercy of finding other players who can rescue your corpse before you release it.

    Between XP loss, the possibility to de-level (or having a debuff while debt is accrued), and the considerations of managing bind location, there is plenty enough "sting" for the death penalty.  Bind locations should be universally shared for all classes with maybe a few exceptions.  Rather than letting the entire caster archetype bind wherever they want (with few limitations)  --  allow specific classes to interact with areas of the world that correspond with their class.  Maybe necromancers can bind at graveyards while clerics can bind at temples.  Maybe rogues can bind at thieves guilds.  Maybe that's enough and the remaining classes are stuck with the shared altars.

    I don't really buy into all of the gibberish I have seen about how hardcore EQ was compared to other games I have played.  The value of XP is relative to how difficult it is to acquire.  If losing XP wasn't terrifying in EQ then that says a lot about its relative value.  My favorite games were built around group interdependence.  XP was considered a precious resource because it was actually challenging to acquire.  True group interdependence.  No bards (support class?) running around quad kiting "challenging" NPC's.  Duo or trio wasn't going to cut it.  Hell ... even a full group wasn't automatically efficient if it wasn't properly balanced around the quaternity.

    It's been repeatedly stated that permanent item loss will not be a thing in Pantheon.  This means that one way or another, gear will be returned to the players.  Maybe it ends up looking like Vanguard where your gear appears at an altar after a period of time or maybe it looks like something else.  Either way, the terror and dread that players experienced in EQ, specifically because of their emotional attachment to the gear they earned and how devastating it would feel to lose it  --  that feeling will not exist here!  It's too demanding on GM's and it just doesn't make sense in a gear-centric game.

    The only sense of "loss" that players could feel is the time they spend without their gear until it's inevitably returned to them.  XP loss doesn't work like that!  Not in a challenging game, anyway.  Difficult to acquire, easy to lose.  That is the motto.  A bad night can set you back multiple levels which then need to be re-earned through consistently positive play.  It doesn't just return to you after your timeout concludes.  XP loss can be tweaked any which way.  It could feel trivial, it could achieve the sweet spot, or it could have most players crying for mommy.  Losing 1,000 dollars is a lot more painful than losing 1,000 pennies.  I hope that XP is actually valuable in Pantheon.  I hope that corpse recovery is a fundamental aspect of play that incorporates the all-important quaternity and stated goal of group interdependence.  I hope that the death penalty is built around loss aversion rather than risk aversion.  If players are punished for making a mistake then they should have the option to "double down" and try to recoup some of their loss.  Doubling down should be an active and engaging activity, a burden that is placed squarely on the shoulders of the player(s) being punished.

    • 1281 posts
    September 11, 2019 3:30 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I would add that meaningful travel should also be an important consideration of the death penalty.  I am not a fan of players respawning at the "nearest altar."  That shrinks the size of the world and the sensation of feeling like you can go on an adventure that is far away from "home."  If a player manages to complete a long journey to the other side of the continent, they should strongly consider binding there if they have any intention of sticking around for a while.  If you die while still having your bind point on the other side of the world then you should be at the mercy of finding other players who can rescue your corpse before you release it.

    Between XP loss, the possibility to de-level (or having a debuff while debt is accrued), and the considerations of managing bind location, there is plenty enough "sting" for the death penalty.  Bind locations should be universally shared for all classes with maybe a few exceptions.  Rather than letting the entire caster archetype bind wherever they want (with few limitations)  --  allow specific classes to interact with areas of the world that correspond with their class.  Maybe necromancers can bind at graveyards while clerics can bind at temples.  Maybe rogues can bind at thieves guilds.  Maybe that's enough and the remaining classes are stuck with the shared altars.

    I don't really buy into all of the gibberish I have seen about how hardcore EQ was compared to other games I have played.  The value of XP is relative to how difficult it is to acquire.  If losing XP wasn't terrifying in EQ then that says a lot about its relative value.  My favorite games were built around group interdependence.  XP was considered a precious resource because it was actually challenging to acquire.  True group interdependence.  No bards (support class?) running around quad kiting "challenging" NPC's.  Duo or trio wasn't going to cut it.  Hell ... even a full group wasn't automatically efficient if it wasn't properly balanced around the quaternity.

    It's been repeatedly stated that permanent item loss will not be a thing in Pantheon.  This means that one way or another, gear will be returned to the players.  Maybe it ends up looking like Vanguard where your gear appears at an altar after a period of time or maybe it looks like something else.  Either way, the terror and dread that players experienced in EQ, specifically because of their emotional attachment to the gear they earned and how devastating it would feel to lose it  --  that feeling will not exist here!  It's too demanding on GM's and it just doesn't make sense in a gear-centric game.

    The only sense of "loss" that players could feel is the time they spend without their gear until it's inevitably returned to them.  XP loss doesn't work like that!  Not in a challenging game, anyway.  Difficult to acquire, easy to lose.  That is the motto.  A bad night can set you back multiple levels which then need to be re-earned through consistently positive play.  It doesn't just return to you after your timeout concludes.  XP loss can be tweaked any which way.  It could feel trivial, it could achieve the sweet spot, or it could have most players crying for mommy.  Losing 1,000 dollars is a lot more painful than losing 1,000 pennies.  I hope that XP is actually valuable in Pantheon.  I hope that corpse recovery is a fundamental aspect of play that incorporates the all-important quaternity and stated goal of group interdependence.  I hope that the death penalty is built around loss aversion rather than risk aversion.  If players are punished for making a mistake then they should have the option to "double down" and try to recoup some of their loss.  Doubling down should be an active and engaging activity, a burden that is placed squarely on the shoulders of the player(s) being punished.

    Travel should, absolutely, be a consideration in the death penalty.  Choose to not bind somewhere relatively close by, you should suffer your choice, plain and simple.  Actions have consequences.

    Experience in EQ was MUCH more difficult to gain than in other, more modern MMOs.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're showing your lack of experience with EQ.  Just because it wasn't "scary enough" for you based on our comments that it should, absolutely, be a thing doesn't mean it wasn't meaningful or painful.  In fact, it was the opposite, which is WHY we want it.  It *WAS* meaningful.  It *WAS* painful.  Death meant something.  So did victory.  It wasn't handed out on a silver platter and spoon fed to us.  Class interdependence was also a thing in EQ.  The more "diverse" your classes, the more effecient you were.  Plain and simple.  Have too many of one type and you were going to have a hard time of it sometimes.

    Terror and dread???  Really?  Talk about over-dramatic.  Did you go to the William Shatner school of over-dramatic acting?  Nobody experienced "terror and dread" from dying.  Do you REALLY think that people went crying to GMs every time that they died and their gear poofed because they couldn't retrieve their corpse??  Not only that, but the corpse didn't poof for a fricken week.  That was WAY more than enough time to get it.

    I remember one night when we were having a bad time of it.  I, personally, lost three levels that night.  We didn't cry.  We didn't go to a GM.  We sucked it up and fought on until we earned those levels back.  That is part of the problem.  You don't want meaningful repercussions from your failures.  You want the victory without the defeat.