Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Death as a concept

    • 2419 posts
    September 4, 2019 1:47 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    For all of those who suggest that XP loss would be inconsequential ... good luck finding a group for any challenging content when you're only 70% efficient.  Many players wouldn't want to burden their group with that sort of deficiency because content would be tuned for players at 100% efficiency and nobody wants to fall on the wrong side of that line.

    /ooc Group LF Tank. Cannot be less than 90% efficient. Send tells.

    That is what you would see with such a ridculous debuff idea.  So while you might be so thoughtful as to not 'burden' your friends by forcing them to carry your weakened character, the average player who depends upon pick-up groups (which I'll bet historically have far higher chances of multiple failures in a given period of time) would be completely screwed.  And once you have enough people sitting on the sidelines incapable of effectively contributing to a group they all just leave.  GG.

     

    • 3237 posts
    September 4, 2019 1:51 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    /ooc Group LF Tank. Cannot be less than 90% efficient. Send tells.

    That is what you would see with such a ridculous debuff idea.  So while you might be so thoughtful as to not 'burden' your friends by forcing them to carry your weakened character, the average player who depends upon pick-up groups (which I'll bet historically have far higher chances of multiple failures in a given period of time) would be completely screwed.  And once you have enough people sitting on the sidelines incapable of effectively contributing to a group they all just leave.  GG.

    /ooc Group LF Tank with weapons/armor.  Send tells.

    Let's not pretend that having your gear sitting on a difficult-to-recover corpse is any better.  A naked character should be lucky to be 10% efficient and they too would be reliant on other players having to carry them back to their corpse, or their corpse back to them.

    • 696 posts
    September 4, 2019 1:52 PM PDT

    @ Vandraad That is true. Everyone does have those bad days of dying a little too much. I find just exp loss and this exp debt just stupid. Same 4 people bouncing back this ridiculous idea. Sadly most of the opposed people aren't paying attention to the forums that much...including me.

     

    Also you wouldn't ever see a tank lfg with no gear...he would be busy trying to get his corpse back lol.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 4, 2019 1:53 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 4, 2019 1:54 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Also you wouldn't ever see a tank lfg with no gear...he would be busy trying to get his corpse back lol.

    It works both ways.  You wouldn't see a tank at 70% efficiency LFG for anything difficult.  They would be busy trying to grind their debt off.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 4, 2019 1:55 PM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 4, 2019 1:56 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    vjek said:

    Ok ok, how about:

    Is that enough 'sting' ?

    So those death counts..are they cumulative throughout your entire adventuring career?  Or only per level?  Is there a timeframe where, if you went long enough without a death, that the counter would remove one or more?  If I didn't play for a month would it reset to 0?

    I understand that it is cumulative while you have debt of exp
    the way to set the counter to 0 is paying that debt of exp

     

    ps: guys forget to put in those /ooc lfg must have 125 scorching acclimation =)


    This post was edited by Elki at September 4, 2019 2:28 PM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 4, 2019 8:38 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:So those death counts..are they cumulative throughout your entire adventuring career?  Or only per level?  Is there a timeframe where, if you went long enough without a death, that the counter would remove one or more?  If I didn't play for a month would it reset to 0?

    You could handle it many ways, but my intent was that it would be permanent until you paid it off. However, I suppose, if you wanted some soft-heartedness, you could add in something like an easing or erasing of the efficiency debuff of say 5% every 24 hours offline.  But the XP debt would still have to remain, i think for the implementation to have "teeth".

    oneADseven said: I could get on board with something like this.  Rather than deleveling, any lost XP that would take you below 0% is instead converted to debt.  The accrual of debt has a stacking debuff, up to 30% loss of efficiency.  The amount of debt that can be stacked is infinite and players who have the debt debuff are noticeable; some sort of visual flair that highlights a performance handicap for that player.
    Yep, sounds reasonable to me.  I think you might end up tweaking it higher than 30%, but certainly worth testing as a first pass implementation.

    --
    As far as unconstructive criticism of the idea, what's better? :)
    I mean that sincerely.  If you (in the general "you" sense) think this idea is the worst idea in the history of ideas, then show me the chart/spreadsheet/schedule of the penalties you would apply that would make death sting.
    Keeping in mind one overarching principle that VR has stuck to and continues to stick to:  Permanent item loss will NOT be a thing in Pantheon.

    • 696 posts
    September 5, 2019 7:05 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Watemper said:

    Also you wouldn't ever see a tank lfg with no gear...he would be busy trying to get his corpse back lol.

    It works both ways.  You wouldn't see a tank at 70% efficiency LFG for anything difficult.  They would be busy trying to grind their debt off.

     

    Yeah you would...because no one knows they are 70% efficient...no one keeps track of that stuff.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 5, 2019 7:05 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 5, 2019 8:08 AM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Yeah you would...because no one knows they are 70% efficient...no one keeps track of that stuff.

    Which is why I included this:

    oneADseven said:

    The amount of debt that can be stacked is infinite and players who have the debt debuff are noticeable; some sort of visual flair that highlights a performance handicap for that player.

    This means there would be a clear marker showing that the player is under the effect of a debt debuff.  If you see someone with the marker then you target them and hover over the debuff icon on their nameplate.  It would be very easy to see who is suffering from a debuff and how severe it is.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 5, 2019 8:13 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 5, 2019 9:22 AM PDT

    It's one of those details that would drastically affect the emergent behavior of your playing customers.  If you only showed the debuff publicly after a certain threshold of deaths/interval, or even after one death/debuff rank, whatever it is, it would lead to different responses/behaviors, I think.

    Those unguilded (or unfriendly?) may find it more challenging to recover after having the debuff.
    However, it may lead to more multi-boxing, to recover, if that's the case.
    It may also lead to players being guilded quicker/sooner, because your guildmates will always help you recover that debt, as a guild policy.
    All players may be more risk averse, strongly, as a result, if there is a social stigma attached to the debuff, especially after even one death.
    Given the consequences to zerging multi-group content, the pressure to perform would be much higher.  Learning new encounters could be quite painful, and force guilds back into group content to recover.
    You could temporally limit the display of the debuff, such that a certain amount of time offline would clear the public marker, but still show it immediately after.  This might not be so great, as it would encourage rage-quits or rage-logoffs.
    Also, you could make it so you didn't show the debuff if you got a rez.  That's... got all sorts of social consequences. >:)  It may place too onerous a burden on rez'ers, though..
    Class specific abilities might be able to hide it?  Rogues may never show it?  They could conceal yours for a day, as a class ability?

    • 1428 posts
    September 5, 2019 10:09 AM PDT

    i'm okay with all this debt stuff, but it better not pertain to pvp.  i already got my ass whooped i don't think any pvp player wants a double whammy with this, plus pvpers are already poor.  we got enough problems as is.

    • 73 posts
    September 5, 2019 11:36 AM PDT

    the fact that in Pantheon no item is permanently lost at death would not have to greatly alter the death penalty of the EQ simply your body does not disappear after 7 days

    but continuing with the Vjek system would obviously create a new emerging game around this mechanics of exp debt and the loss of efficiency but if it is not tested and conclusions are drawn based on that test we can say words on air

    with the modifications of 1AD7, that the debt was visible to others may be fine but that you only take debt and debuff if you level down, kill or completely modify the Vjek system

    if you are leveling up every time you level up you would have an excessive fear and would play cowardly up to 20% of the level that would no longer matter to die
    and at maximum lvl the deaths would not matter except perhaps the raiders as the raids are designed

    • 696 posts
    September 5, 2019 1:55 PM PDT

    Griefing would happen at the highest level of the debuff system too....much fun.

    • 3237 posts
    September 5, 2019 3:34 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Griefing would happen at the highest level of the debuff system too....much fun.

    Care to elaborate on what you mean?

    • 10 posts
    September 5, 2019 3:54 PM PDT

    mayby as a death punishment you get a debuff making your max durability lower forceing you to repair more often or having to use your salvage skills more on gear you get to pay off debt 

    • 999 posts
    September 5, 2019 4:52 PM PDT
    I’ve linked it many times before, but Wolfshead’s article on loss aversion sums up my thoughts on a harsh death penalty and its importance better than I can - highly recommend the read if you haven’t yet (it should be in the MMO design rulebook in my opinion):

    https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
    • 1860 posts
    September 5, 2019 5:35 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Let's not pretend that having your gear sitting on a difficult-to-recover corpse is any better.  A naked character should be lucky to be 10% efficient and they too would be reliant on other players having to carry them back to their corpse, or their corpse back to them.

    Everyone has a set of CR gear in the bank...what you are suggesting isn't a thing...

    • 238 posts
    September 5, 2019 5:43 PM PDT

    I saw someone mention that rezes shouldn't return experience and I don't really agree with this for various reasons. 

    1. It is a healers job to combat death and the consequences of death. While I don't believe that rezes should completely negate the amount of exp lost on death, I do believe that they should some negating effect. I also believe that the amount of loss negated should depend on class. 

    2. Pantheon's goal is to set up unique classes while following a quaternity class system (heals, tank, dps, and cc). Within this class system, they aim to create niches among the classes that fit within each class. The healers which include clerics, druids, and shamans will all hold unique playstyle and niches. They will all be able to heal adequately however the cleric will be the best in terms of outright healing capabilities at the loss of offensive capabilities. Based on this it makes sense that clerics would get the best exp restored rez. 

    3. Someone mentioned clerics being hounded because historically they have been granted the best exp % restore rez. My response to that is death can be very profitable ($$$) business. I wouldn't mind someone looking me up in a zone and asking me to come rez them. However, I expect compensation based on your level, how far I have to go out of my way, and if you died because you tried to fight something vastly out of your level range I might be nice and even toss in a stupidity tax. I would also encourage other healers and classes to try to make a profit by using what is unique to their class. The community does matter however your time and energy is also valuable. 

    People want death to matter myself included and there are additional ways to layer on consequences. With that being said I don't think death should be completely oppressive to the point where people don't take risks. Without risk there is no reward, or motivation to test and push class limits. Humanity has this really nasty habit of taking the path of least resistance and it can lead to stagnation and complacency.  


    This post was edited by Baldur at September 5, 2019 5:44 PM PDT
    • 945 posts
    September 5, 2019 6:26 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Also you wouldn't ever see a tank lfg with no gear...he would be busy trying to get his corpse back lol.

    On the contrary, EVERY tank without gear would be LFG, otherwise he would never "get his corpse back lol"

    At which point, a naked tank (or melee DPS aside from a monk maybe) is nothing more than a burden on the rest of their party, being carried.

    philo said:

    Everyone has a set of CR gear in the bank...what you are suggesting isn't a thing...

    This is also not true - maybe once the game has been live for several months to a year, or inventory space is unlimited (which it won't be).  Otherwise, once you got back to your corpse to loot your gear, you would likely need to destroy some of the "bank gear" brought with you to grab your primary gear (or just always have like 12 open slots LARGE ENOUGH to carry your equipment in your inventory at all times... effectively making your already limited inventory space that much smaller).  


    This post was edited by Darch at September 5, 2019 6:31 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 5, 2019 6:28 PM PDT

    philo said:

    Everyone has a set of CR gear in the bank...what you are suggesting isn't a thing...

    Everyone?  Is every set pretty good, too?  Highly doubtful.  But let's assume that most people do, and this particular someone does have a decent set of CR gear.  Let's also assume that they run back to the bank after they wipe, then back to the dungeon, and then attempt to recover their corpse.  (Wooo meaningful travel!)  That should probably take a while but eventually, they make their way back and something happens while they are retracing their steps through the dungeon.  Bad respawn, train, lag spike, mistake ... whatever.  The odds of someone dying in back-up gear should be much higher than someone dying in their best gear.  Especially when there is an emphasis on situational gear being used to overcome environmental challenges and/or specific encounters.  Will everyone have that, too?  A full set of back-up situational gear for when their normal situational gear is already on a corpse?  Anyway ... they are back to being naked, and back to being reliant on other people.  What I was suggesting is that it's ridiculous to say that someone with a 10, 20, or 30% debuff would be "screwed" and that the debuff angle would ruin the game due to "people sitting on the sideline because they cannot effectively contribute to a group."  Being naked should be much worse than having a percentage based debuff and people seem perfectly fine with naked folks sitting around begging for help.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 5, 2019 6:48 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    September 5, 2019 8:18 PM PDT

    @187

    There is nothing wrong with people relying on others to help them out.  That is a main focus of Pantheon.  Community matters.  

    Players can find ways out of even the most difficult circumstances.

     It must be hard to relate to what others are talking about when you didnt have any experience with early EQ, let alone high end raiding at the time.

    I encourage you to not be against something you don't have any experience with.  You might find that everyone else is not wrong. If you had only had that experience you might think differently and, in the long run, be glad you did.

     


    This post was edited by philo at September 5, 2019 8:22 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 5, 2019 9:42 PM PDT

    philo said:

    @187

    There is nothing wrong with people relying on others to help them out.  That is a main focus of Pantheon.  Community matters.  

    Players can find ways out of even the most difficult circumstances.

     It must be hard to relate to what others are talking about when you didnt have any experience with early EQ, let alone high end raiding at the time.

    I encourage you to not be against something you don't have any experience with.  You might find that everyone else is not wrong. If you had only had that experience you might think differently and, in the long run, be glad you did.

    Please look at the context of what was being discussed and the original comment you quoted me on and responded to.  I pointed out that a player with a debuff wasn't any more helpless than someone who is naked.  You claimed that what I was suggesting wasn't a thing.  My point is that this whole #communitymatters train should keep on rolling, then.  If players will be lined up to save their naked brethren then there is little to no merit in the idea that partially gimped brethren would be screwed.  You seem to cite my lack of experience every time we disagree on something.  (3 times in your most recent comment ... at least a dozen times regarding anything with progeny.)  Having experience with EQ is not a prerequisite of understanding how a basic concept such as group interdependence works.  I don't need to have experience being caught on fire to know that hot stuff burns so spare me the masqued words of encouragement.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 5, 2019 10:10 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    September 6, 2019 12:57 AM PDT

    At no point did I address a debuff.  VR has never shown that as a possibility and we both know Kilsin has mentioned many times that we are past the point of any major system changes.

    What I was addressing was that you didn't seem to realize that, by the time payers are high end, they would have plenty of backup gear to aid them with corpse retrieval (though with the help of others it is often not needed).  That is where the inexperienced comment came in.

    You can make analogies all you want but you have shown repeatedly that, maybe because you didn't play EQ?, you have trouble grasping some of the things that are discussed on this forum.  Others don't seem to have that issue so I'm unsure where the disconnect is?

    Edit: I take it back, I just read through a few more posts in this thread.  There are others who have limited experience with harsh penalties and naked corpse retrieval. 

    It is difficult to discuss when little nuances are being missed.  Ill leave you to it.


    This post was edited by philo at September 6, 2019 1:12 AM PDT
    • 411 posts
    September 6, 2019 5:28 AM PDT

    Instead of thinking just about the severity of the penance required to pay for dying, it is also important to think about what types of play are encouraged and discouraged. Combat debuffs discourage competitive (combat related) content and encourage going after easier and safer content. If you want to take a risk and tackle something difficult, I don't think you should have a mechanic discouraging you after one attempt. If you failed at full strength, is it likely you'll succeed with a debuff? This would practically cap all difficult content to a couple attempts.

    My ideal death penalty definitely includes penalizing every death (debt seems like a good fit), but only affect some form of efficiency for delinquency.

    Penalizing deaths by exp loss/debt means that a player is encouraged to get more experience and not specifically discouraged from anything. I think that is good, because that's the same as the regular game so they don't have to make any adjustments. It's just a good fit.

    If there is a debuff of any form as part of the death penalty mechanic, I disagree with anything that hinders the repayment of your debt. That positive feedback could be quite disheartening. Imagine a boy screaming "I just want to get rid of this debuff and I keep dying because I'm debuffed!!!".

    I would prefer the penalty for exp debt delinquency to be connected to some non-combat related mechanic. Perhaps after reaching X% of your level in debt you are a bit more... dead than you should be and most upstanding factions will look down on you and eventually not stand to have you around (Clerics could temporarily buff you to diminish some of this effect and make you tolerable). Perhaps the Gods look down on your behavior and your luck (loot chance for you and your group) decreases. I would prefer something more in the vein of these types of non-combat effects for delinquency.

    Also, remember that anything that provides a benefit for inaction not only goes against VR's tenet, but encourages people to avoid playing. If you have to wait a week to use a graveyard or your gear returns to you after a week, then you are incenvitized to not play Pantheon for a week, which doesn't seem awesome.

    • 3237 posts
    September 6, 2019 5:29 AM PDT

    philo said:

    At no point did I address a debuff.  VR has never shown that as a possibility and we both know Kilsin has mentioned many times that we are past the point of any major system changes.

    philo said:

    You can make analogies all you want but you have shown repeatedly that, maybe because you didn't play EQ?, you have trouble grasping some of the things that are discussed on this forum.  Others don't seem to have that issue so I'm unsure where the disconnect is?

    You should keep in mind that the death penalty is not finalized  --  Joppa made it clear that we would be experimenting with a variety of death penalties, including a debt system.  Brad mentioned the possibility of having XP attached to corpses instead of loot.  If I am having trouble comprehending something ... it's this narrative that Pantheon is going to mimic EQ even though it's been repeatedly stated that the death penalty will not be the same.  Brad has been consistent for years in saying that the death penalty in this game will be somewhere in the middle of EQ and Vanguard and he specifically cited naked corpse runs as "probably too extreme."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 6, 2019 5:39 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    September 6, 2019 7:03 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Watemper said:

    Also you wouldn't ever see a tank lfg with no gear...he would be busy trying to get his corpse back lol.

    On the contrary, EVERY tank without gear would be LFG, otherwise he would never "get his corpse back lol"

    At which point, a naked tank (or melee DPS aside from a monk maybe) is nothing more than a burden on the rest of their party, being carried.

    philo said:

    Everyone has a set of CR gear in the bank...what you are suggesting isn't a thing...

    This is also not true - maybe once the game has been live for several months to a year, or inventory space is unlimited (which it won't be).  Otherwise, once you got back to your corpse to loot your gear, you would likely need to destroy some of the "bank gear" brought with you to grab your primary gear (or just always have like 12 open slots LARGE ENOUGH to carry your equipment in your inventory at all times... effectively making your already limited inventory space that much smaller).  

     

    Sounds elitist to me...with burdensom and stuff. I guess you aren't the person to help get someones corpse back...would be too burdensom lol.