Please DO create bottle necks as they are nessasary.
My wife and I not being of the "we are entitled and don't want to wait" crowd extremely enjoy the sense of accomplishment we get when after a long camp the stars finally align and we get what we were hunting for.
We both have lives, we have full time jobs, we have 5 kids and 11 grandkids between us, other hobbies besides gaming, all demanding time from us. If VR wants a piece of that time then they better offer something besides "go here get your epic item you are entitled to in 15min since you now have a life so we wouldn't want to keep you"
Valtra, my wife's EQ Enchanter has done all of her epic's and I would bet the only parts she remembers are the long camps the OP is talking about.
"He hates and loves the Ring, as he hates and loves himself." Gandalf
Chanus said:There needs to be a way for a couple-hours-a-day player to meaningfully progress or the game will be dead on arrival as it cannot attract and hold a large enough playerbase. I am completely fine with that type of player not being able to achieve every goal, or experience all possible content. Over the course of (let's say, because we have no idea,) a year between expansions, I think that player should be able to complete the meaningful solo/group content for that expansion. They may not be able to achieve the prestige rewards in-era, and I think that is totally acceptable, but they need to be able to feel like there is a compelling reason and an acceptable reward for playing at all. If there isn't, they simply won't play, and I know Everquest is still chugging along after 20 years, but it gets very little in the way of new, unique, and compelling content developed for it. Those devs do a lot with very limited resources, but a new game having to prove itself cannot be run like that. It needs a large enough playerbase to afford robust development.
If you rely on extremely rare spawns and highly time-gated content for normal character progression, you are not going to attract a large enough playerbase.
I actually really love access quests to unlock areas. Give me some long, lore-heavy, epic quest that takes 5-10 levels to complete with a really neat item or dungeon access at the end of it. Want to go to that continent? Swim a long way through shark infested water or help this ship captain do some tasks so they can transport you to the new area. And now that I've done it, I can help others also get to the new area. Or I worked my butt off for a week doing this dungeon access quest; finally found the correct creature/boss who sometimes appears in the woods at night - on a full moon, now I have the key and location and can lead my group into it.
If there are special creatures/characters in the game that have more rare spawns, that's okay with me. However, please, please make it so that everyone in the group gets the update when defeating or finding these things. THAT is what frustrates me. 5 or 6 of us worked to take it down, oh, but it only drops one update each time. Or the zone only spawns one item each instance (if we have any kind of instances.) Just had that happen for another game. Was looking for a sword propped against a wall in a small zone. Found it, first player grabs it, we'll have to reset and reenter the zone - but it has a 90 minute reset cool down. That just seems like unnecessary wasted time to wait.
~WN
Chanus said:Syrif said:@Dorotea Interesting thoughts. Just curious - how do you propose not every high-level (or a certain class) ultimately getting the same high-end or rare item then?
Is this a real problem?
If you mean not having Best In Slot items, you could create a spread of several items with cosmetic differences that are functionally the same, as the simplest solution. Or you could create different loadouts that excel in different scenarios, and make multiple scenarios meaningful.
This is getting a bit off-topic for this thread though, which I think is not encouraged here.
OP is referring to a very high-end item for the Enchanter class. That’s why what I wrote crossed my mind. It’s not off-topic at all.
benty said:Chanus said:There needs to be a way for a couple-hours-a-day player to meaningfully progress or the game will be dead on arrival as it cannot attract and hold a large enough playerbase. I am completely fine with that type of player not being able to achieve every goal, or experience all possible content. Over the course of (let's say, because we have no idea,) a year between expansions, I think that player should be able to complete the meaningful solo/group content for that expansion. They may not be able to achieve the prestige rewards in-era, and I think that is totally acceptable, but they need to be able to feel like there is a compelling reason and an acceptable reward for playing at all. If there isn't, they simply won't play, and I know Everquest is still chugging along after 20 years, but it gets very little in the way of new, unique, and compelling content developed for it. Those devs do a lot with very limited resources, but a new game having to prove itself cannot be run like that. It needs a large enough playerbase to afford robust development.
If you rely on extremely rare spawns and highly time-gated content for normal character progression, you are not going to attract a large enough playerbase.
A casual player should be making progress yes, but the context of OP post is regarding hard to obtain items. If you're a casual player, you should not be on the same playing field as a hardcore player. That's why hardcore content is...well...hard. I know you stated this somewhat in your response about prestige rewards, but the context of the post is more or less about just that. Your character's epic is a good example of something you could not achieve unless you were a hardcore player (for most of us) or a druid (HAH! :P)
I actually think Epic quests in the Everquest sense are the pinnacle of terrible bottlenecking game design. These quests should be Epic in the sense that they require long journeys and great feats of accomplishment and yet most of them involve sitting in one spot for (sometimes literal) days on end, reading a book, and hoping that by the time the correct spawn pops someone doesn't just come along and gank it.
Chanus said:benty said:Chanus said:There needs to be a way for a couple-hours-a-day player to meaningfully progress or the game will be dead on arrival as it cannot attract and hold a large enough playerbase. I am completely fine with that type of player not being able to achieve every goal, or experience all possible content. Over the course of (let's say, because we have no idea,) a year between expansions, I think that player should be able to complete the meaningful solo/group content for that expansion. They may not be able to achieve the prestige rewards in-era, and I think that is totally acceptable, but they need to be able to feel like there is a compelling reason and an acceptable reward for playing at all. If there isn't, they simply won't play, and I know Everquest is still chugging along after 20 years, but it gets very little in the way of new, unique, and compelling content developed for it. Those devs do a lot with very limited resources, but a new game having to prove itself cannot be run like that. It needs a large enough playerbase to afford robust development.
If you rely on extremely rare spawns and highly time-gated content for normal character progression, you are not going to attract a large enough playerbase.
A casual player should be making progress yes, but the context of OP post is regarding hard to obtain items. If you're a casual player, you should not be on the same playing field as a hardcore player. That's why hardcore content is...well...hard. I know you stated this somewhat in your response about prestige rewards, but the context of the post is more or less about just that. Your character's epic is a good example of something you could not achieve unless you were a hardcore player (for most of us) or a druid (HAH! :P)
I actually think Epic quests in the Everquest sense are the pinnacle of terrible bottlenecking game design. These quests should be Epic in the sense that they require long journeys and great feats of accomplishment and yet most of them involve sitting in one spot for (sometimes literal) days on end, reading a book, and hoping that by the time the correct spawn pops someone doesn't just come along and gank it.
Well to be honest man if you let your camp get ganked, you dont deserve your epic, get good noob!
Chanus said:Things that are meant to be highly rewarding should be challenging. The issue is in what the challenge comes from. Hoping I get lucky enough to catch a spawn that occurs hours or days apart isn't a real challenge. Hoping when I get to the end of a quest I can get the final step done before someone comes along and steals it from me, resetting all my progress isn't a real challenge. The game should be challening, not the players, and not arbitrary rarity of avaialble content.
I've been playing Everquest again recently and the number of times I've felt a sense of pride in my accomplishment is far outweighed by the number of times I've finished a task and thought, "Well thank goodness I don't ever have to do that again."
RNG is not challenge. It is lazy design.
Well said Chanus.
Especially this quote: I've been playing Everquest again recently and the number of times I've felt a sense of pride in my accomplishment is far outweighed by the number of times I've finished a task and thought, "Well thank goodness I don't ever have to do that again."
Those that are fantasizing or reminiscing about the "challenges" of days past are not taking into consideration the population that we will be playing with in today's MMO environment. Those that say "Please have competitive rare spawn bottlenecks for my sense of completion" aren't taking into consideration the players (trolls) with the sole intention of making other people's experience difficult, and how easy it is to grief in a non-instanced game.
Bottlenecks are fine, but within reason. An extremely rare AND shared resource that can only be accessed once per spawn in an open world is a terrible bottleneck when those types of mechanics can very easily be used as a tool for griefing (which is to be policed by the community...) I think appropriate bottlenecks are things like difficult encounters for Epic quests (requiring groups or raids), requiring lengthy quests for obtaining keys to enter certain areas, or RNG for particular item drops from "non-rare" NPCs (both poor RNG combined with rare NPCs is a recipe for decline in casual player base which leads to griefers outpopulating roleplayers).
Having poor RNG will likely promote griefing (or at least create poor attitudes) from players that have speant months trying to obtain something, only to have a group or higher level character come by and erase months of the player's progress.
Too many people with delusions of grandeur. :(
20 year vet of EQ, i will say those bottlenecks are what kept the game going strong for all of these years. You need bottleneck time syncs to keep it alive. This is not a 20 dollar Early Access game filled with 10 hours of game play. You reduce the game bottlenecks and players will rush to end game content faster then the expansions can be released.
Naw i vote for as many hardcore bottlenecks and give us loads of quests, mini quests, loads of tradeskills, loads of exploration, and tons of Plane of Time bottlenecks.
This is my very last large MMO i will play, turning 49 this year many of us at my age have moved on. Some of us return to dabble, some of us return to rekindle our loved games like EQ but over all most of us have stuck with Brad and his first concept builds of 1998
Yes i am one of them.
Crazzie said:20 year vet of EQ, i will say those bottlenecks are what kept the game going strong for all of these years. You need bottleneck time syncs to keep it alive. This is not a 20 dollar Early Access game filled with 10 hours of game play. You reduce the game bottlenecks and players will rush to end game content faster then the expansions can be released.
Naw i vote for as many hardcore bottlenecks and give us loads of quests, mini quests, loads of tradeskills, loads of exploration, and tons of Plane of Time bottlenecks.
This is my very last large MMO i will play, turning 49 this year many of us at my age have moved on. Some of us return to dabble, some of us return to rekindle our loved games like EQ but over all most of us have stuck with Brad and his first concept builds of 1998
Yes i am one of them.
I don't mind if a quest step takes me 72 hours to complete so long as the requirement isn't sitting at my computer for anywhere from two minutes to 72 hours straight, ready to pounce at any moment, or I lose my chance at progress and have to start over.
Crazzie said:20 year vet of EQ, i will say those bottlenecks are what kept the game going strong for all of these years. You need bottleneck time syncs to keep it alive. This is not a 20 dollar Early Access game filled with 10 hours of game play. You reduce the game bottlenecks and players will rush to end game content faster then the expansions can be released.
Naw i vote for as many hardcore bottlenecks and give us loads of quests, mini quests, loads of tradeskills, loads of exploration, and tons of Plane of Time bottlenecks.
This is my very last large MMO i will play, turning 49 this year many of us at my age have moved on. Some of us return to dabble, some of us return to rekindle our loved games like EQ but over all most of us have stuck with Brad and his first concept builds of 1998
Yes i am one of them.
Yes that‘s true. I’d probably go with bottlenecks over not. Take a friend of mine for example, he never wanted to do his epic quest as he thought there was plenty of other stuff to do - content, crafting, guild events etc. I see it as: the bottlenecks are there for the people who want it, and for those who don’t want it, then that’s fine too. :)
Crazzie said:Naw i vote for as many hardcore bottlenecks and give us loads of quests, mini quests, loads of tradeskills, loads of exploration, and tons of Plane of Time bottlenecks.
By the definitions I've seen here, anything considered a roadblock that prevent instant access to the item/quest/reward is considered a "bottleneck". I don’t buy it.
Rare loot won't be rare if it's easy to get. Bottlenecks, by whatever definition you want to give them, are there for a reason.
Bottlenecks are necessary. It slows down progress through content, lengthening the life of the game. But even a bottleneck, if done properly, can actually be an enjoyable part of the game.
The worst bottleneck is the type alluded to above: Long respawn timers with very rare drop rates. These are boring and rely exclusively upon luck for advancement. At the opposite end is the fast respawn rate with a high drop rate. Not a bottleneck at all but a 'push button-get reward' instant gratification route. The better choice is having an average respawn with average drop rates.
If you're dealing with a single source for the drop, you put it in the middle of other content that a level appropriate group can happily engage with so that you accomplish multiple things simultaneously: adventuring to gain experience, group fun, potential to complete the quest/obtain the item. It's like feeding a vitamin to your dog. It hates the vitamin but if you wrap it in a tasty treat they happily eat it.
Key quests can be like this where 'the key' isn't just a single item but a combination of items. The key to Sebillis had a quick respawn of those 2 froglocks and each dropped their part every time. It was a bottleneck to be sure but one that was quickly dispatched. The problem was you had just 1 source and so groups stacked up, killstealing at every opportunity. By contrast, the key to Vex Thal had 10 pieces spread across multiple zones. Any number of NPCs in the zones could drop the shards so just by adventuring in the area you could obtain the key without specifically trying. But because you needed all 10 shards, the time taken was long.
If I had my choice, all key quests would be similar to the VT key: multiple pieces dropped by any number of NPCs across mulitple zones of a similar level.
For those quests where there must be only 1 source for that 1 item, like the epic quests, here is where I suggest we see deliberate spawning where once you gather some prerequisite pieces you can spawn the specific NPC at a time of your choosing. You still need to defeat it, but at least it fits to your schedule.
Great examples Vandraad. That really highlights the difference between a good and bad bottleneck. Now add in that Pantheon servers may have 10s of 1000s of players rather than 10s of 100s that EQ had just due to how much larger the MMO market is these days. Single point access bottlenecks just become infeasible when you start dealing with that large of a population.
Gotta agree with some here : Epics aren't just for anybody. Everything should be compelled, friendship (or mercenaries...), patience, skill, etc...
Making an epic quest only be "personnal skill based" throught challenges won't make it epic, it will just be a class item you accomplish at different pace but that you're "intended" to complete anyway.
If you're not ready to camp, wait, or be uncertain that you will succed, everytime you try. Maybe it's not for "you". It's an epic quest, it's designed to be epic, selective, and cattered around very involved players. Going into a solo instance and learning mechanics of a boss is not "skill", it's a partition. Going to a website learning the exact tempo to kill a solo fight is not skill either.
I'm not saying patience or long camp are skill, I'm saying they are part of what makes a player involved and dedicated, parting him away from casual players and alts. If you can complete an epic on your alt in little time by yourself, then it's not an epic, it's just a class item.
Chanus said:Syrif said:@Dorotea Interesting thoughts. Just curious - how do you propose not every high-level (or a certain class) ultimately getting the same high-end or rare item then?
Is this a real problem?
If you mean not having Best In Slot items, you could create a spread of several items with cosmetic differences that are functionally the same, as the simplest solution. Or you could create different loadouts that excel in different scenarios, and make multiple scenarios meaningful.
This is getting a bit off-topic for this thread though, which I think is not encouraged here.
That is definitely a problem. Especially the way there is little to no variance in character creation. If everyone is the same the incentive to improve...and play...is minimized.
If there was a multitude of options as far as building your character the gear variation wouldn't be as important. As is, cookie cutter gear acquisition is a given. Even if there are a couple different items with near identical stats for each slot, that is just more options to be cookie cutter as far as total stats go.
That had always been a concern of mine...even though I think we all understand why VR is doing it. It is easier to balance. Easier to regulate when every class has a max possible stat gain available through items than if there were options of a variety of builds. That would essentially allow someone to "gimp themselves" in the eyes of others.
...but then everyone is the same over the long run. There is no uniqueness other than some people acquire item X earlier than others. This is a major stumbling block for this game imho that can hopefully be rectified as time goes on.
MauvaisOeil said:Gotta agree with some here : Epics aren't just for anybody. Everything should be compelled, friendship (or mercenaries...), patience, skill, etc...
Making an epic quest only be "personnal skill based" throught challenges won't make it epic, it will just be a class item you accomplish at different pace but that you're "intended" to complete anyway.
If you're not ready to camp, wait, or be uncertain that you will succed, everytime you try. Maybe it's not for "you". It's an epic quest, it's designed to be epic, selective, and cattered around very involved players. Going into a solo instance and learning mechanics of a boss is not "skill", it's a partition. Going to a website learning the exact tempo to kill a solo fight is not skill either.
I'm not saying patience or long camp are skill, I'm saying they are part of what makes a player involved and dedicated, parting him away from casual players and alts. If you can complete an epic on your alt in little time by yourself, then it's not an epic, it's just a class item.
I strongly disagree with you here. Pantheon is (to my knowledge) about teaming up with others to overcome the challenges of the game world: A PvE game in other words. There is no mention of Pantheon being developed as a PvP game. But...if there is an item you need to complete your quest, and whenever there's a chance to obtain that item, you have to compete with x other people already sitting on the spawn point. Can you tell me what else that is but PvP? I would say if such situations arise, it would indicate a significant failure in game design!
I would absolutely say that "epics ARE for everyone": Everyone who can find the support from their guilds and friends IMO IS entitled to get their epic! If you have the means to overcome the game world challenges, then you deserve to complete the quest.
As I posted already, of course there will be some competition because Pantheon is an open world. That's acceptable and totally OK. But the game can be made so that extreme bottlenecks do not form in the first place.
Chanus said:I don't mind if a quest step takes me 72 hours to complete so long as the requirement isn't sitting at my computer for anywhere from two minutes to 72 hours straight, ready to pounce at any moment, or I lose my chance at progress and have to start over.
Okay, but how do you want to spend those 72 hours to complete one quest step, then? Grinding an insane number of mobs, only to find that you have outleveled a lot of other content? Traveling with no other purpose than to make the 72 hours pass? You called it "lazy design" several times, so here's your chance to come up with something. But it must have the same effect of slowing down progress of those who can and will play all day and most of the night, or vice versa.
Of course, it must be possible to ignore such quests and have a rewarding journey all the way to max level without playing more than a few hours a week. There'll just be some items that you cannot obtain.
Sarim said:MauvaisOeil said:Gotta agree with some here : Epics aren't just for anybody. Everything should be compelled, friendship (or mercenaries...), patience, skill, etc...
Making an epic quest only be "personnal skill based" throught challenges won't make it epic, it will just be a class item you accomplish at different pace but that you're "intended" to complete anyway.
If you're not ready to camp, wait, or be uncertain that you will succed, everytime you try. Maybe it's not for "you". It's an epic quest, it's designed to be epic, selective, and cattered around very involved players. Going into a solo instance and learning mechanics of a boss is not "skill", it's a partition. Going to a website learning the exact tempo to kill a solo fight is not skill either.
I'm not saying patience or long camp are skill, I'm saying they are part of what makes a player involved and dedicated, parting him away from casual players and alts. If you can complete an epic on your alt in little time by yourself, then it's not an epic, it's just a class item.
I strongly disagree with you here. Pantheon is (to my knowledge) about teaming up with others to overcome the challenges of the game world: A PvE game in other words. There is no mention of Pantheon being developed as a PvP game. But...if there is an item you need to complete your quest, and whenever there's a chance to obtain that item, you have to compete with x other people already sitting on the spawn point. Can you tell me what else that is but PvP? I would say if such situations arise, it would indicate a significant failure in game design!
I would absolutely say that "epics ARE for everyone": Everyone who can find the support from their guilds and friends IMO IS entitled to get their epic! If you have the means to overcome the game world challenges, then you deserve to complete the quest.
As I posted already, of course there will be some competition because Pantheon is an open world. That's acceptable and totally OK. But the game can be made so that extreme bottlenecks do not form in the first place.
Your last paragraph...is part of the problem with current mmo's now. The weapons you would consider as epics are no longer epics, they become standard if you want to use your job. There has to be something to stifle the flow of gear that the top 5 or 10% go after. Ran into this issue on ffxiv, where nearly all my classes had what is comparable to an epic, and each one I felt no emotional attachment too compared to my comparable epic in ffxi, which took me almost a year to complete just 1!
As someone who never completed their epic in EQ (at least not in the inteded era) and as somewho never hit level cap on live until well after Luclin I support bottle necks.That si exactly what made seeing those who had their epics and those that were at level cap special. It gave you something to strive for.
In all of the games I have played since I never once remember seeing someone and thinking wow thats amazing. I remember thinking wow, I'll go get that today too. Then promptly moved on to the next thing. I still remember the first time I saw an epic for each class in EQ. I still remember being in awe of level 50's standing in the noob area in front of west FP. In every other game I just went and got max level. Usually far quicker than I wanted but it was just so easy it happened on its own. I like to see mob bottle necks and even hell level bottle necks.For me I want a 9 to 16 month journey to level cap and or epic.
Grimix said:Your last paragraph...is part of the problem with current mmo's now. The weapons you would consider as epics are no longer epics, they become standard if you want to use your job. There has to be something to stifle the flow of gear that the top 5 or 10% go after. Ran into this issue on ffxiv, where nearly all my classes had what is comparable to an epic, and each one I felt no emotional attachment too compared to my comparable epic in ffxi, which took me almost a year to complete just 1!
Absolutely, of course it shouldn't be a walk in the park to obtain an epic (weapon or otherwise)! But that can be achieved in many ways, there's no need for artificial (time) blocks. This repeating exaggeration is really becoming tiresome: People ask for "no bottle necks" in this thread, and some other people immediately cry foul "They just want handouts!". Noone asked for that!
We all want a challenging game, it just seems we have very different opinions on what is challenging. The definition of a bottleneck as we're using it here is sitting in line with others until it is your turn to obtain an item. That may sound challenging to you - to me it does not! I rather want challenging fights that push my and my group's abilities to the limit. That require gearing up and training hard before even trying them. Raid encounters that require you to work with many others. THAT is challenge as I want to see it in Pantheon.
Literally the only things I do not want are for my character's progress to be determined by entirely random events or for my character's progress to be inhibited by the direct actions of other players in a PVE environment.
I want a play session of two or three hours to always have the potential to result in meaningful advancement if I set myself toward a task and devote that time to it (I don't mean an Epic should take three hours, but I should be able to complete some step or progress toward a step that I don't have to just start back over if I run out of time).
Beyond that, I do not have any issue with content being challenging, or taking a long time over several play sessions. I do not have any issue with prestige accomplishments being difficult and complex enough to significantly benefit from help from other players, be it group or raid, so long as the impediment is not an arbitrary block you simply cannot progress past on your own by any means (outleveling/clever tactics/time investment).
If I need to kill a lot of things, or follow a long path, or explore various and numerous areas to complete a task, that is all perfectly fine with me.
Just make my progress something I can plan for and work toward. The end point of a quest should be knowable (once all the information is gathered). It should not be the case I can do everything right over a very long period of time and then simply fail because of a randomly-determined outcome.