urgatorbait said:Keno Monster said:Items like epic weapons should be hard to acquire and not everyone who is of the approriate level should be guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them.
I apologize if I’m splitting hairs here but everyone should have the “opportunity” to acquire items like epics - so long as they are capable of completing the task. To use the word “opportunity“ implies that no matter how capable or how much support someone has from other players, that they simply cannot acquire said item. That the opportunity does not exist for them.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.
Keno Monster said:urgatorbait said:Keno Monster said:Items like epic weapons should be hard to acquire and not everyone who is of the approriate level should be guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them.
I apologize if I’m splitting hairs here but everyone should have the “opportunity” to acquire items like epics - so long as they are capable of completing the task. To use the word “opportunity“ implies that no matter how capable or how much support someone has from other players, that they simply cannot acquire said item. That the opportunity does not exist for them.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.
@Keno Monster: I agree with the overall message, but the sentence "Not everyone deserves the opportunity" confuses me. Does this mean that if I work hard enough in terms of playing time and become skillful enough and have enough support from my guild and other friends, I will eventually become "deserving" and have a greater than 0%, but much less than 100%, chance of success?
I believe it should.
Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.
This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily.
Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.
The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).
Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.
It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.
Chanus said:Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily.
Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.
The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).
Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.
It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.
Yes a game, but we need Pantheon to *stay* fun. This is where we need to seriously consider Pantheon being different from games like WoW where I hear people play it, then get bored of it quickly, then quit. What’s interesting is Blizzard has now admitted that it has to make Vanilla servers to even try and bring players back. If not for poor decisions, Blizzard would not find itself in this situation in the first place for example.
Syrif said:Chanus said:Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily.
Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.
The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).
Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.
It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.Yes a game, but we need Pantheon to *stay* fun. This is where we need to seriously consider Pantheon being different from games like WoW where I hear people play it, then get bored of it quickly, then quit. What’s interesting is Blizzard has now admitted that it has to make Vanilla servers to even try and bring players back. If not for poor decisions, Blizzard would not find itself in this situation in the first place for example.
Aboslute nonsense. Original WoW isn't objectively better than current WoW.
Some people prefer original WoW and Blizzard has seen a market opportunity to cater to that demographic. They certainly aren't otherwise hurting for subscriptions in the MMO space.
Chanus said:Syrif said:Yes a game, but we need Pantheon to *stay* fun. This is where we need to seriously consider Pantheon being different from games like WoW where I hear people play it, then get bored of it quickly, then quit. What’s interesting is Blizzard has now admitted that it has to make Vanilla servers to even try and bring players back. If not for poor decisions, Blizzard would not find itself in this situation in the first place for example.
Aboslute nonsense. Original WoW isn't objectively better than current WoW.
Some people prefer original WoW and Blizzard has seen a market opportunity to cater to that demographic. They certainly aren't otherwise hurting for subscriptions in the MMO space.
Nonsense? Ok, then why has Blizzard’s WoW subscriptions been declining drastically (by the millions)? I don’t think WoW’s timing to bring back Vanilla WoW right now (a whopping fifteen years later) is a coincidence. Apparently, people had been wanting Vanilla for a very long time. Interesting how Blizzard is now only bringing back Vanilla after millions of people have and continue to quit.
Syrif said:Chanus said:Syrif said:Yes a game, but we need Pantheon to *stay* fun. This is where we need to seriously consider Pantheon being different from games like WoW where I hear people play it, then get bored of it quickly, then quit. What’s interesting is Blizzard has now admitted that it has to make Vanilla servers to even try and bring players back. If not for poor decisions, Blizzard would not find itself in this situation in the first place for example.
Aboslute nonsense. Original WoW isn't objectively better than current WoW.
Some people prefer original WoW and Blizzard has seen a market opportunity to cater to that demographic. They certainly aren't otherwise hurting for subscriptions in the MMO space.
Nonsense? Ok, then why has Blizzard’s WoW subscriptions been declining drastically (by the millions)? I don’t think WoW’s timing to bring back Vanilla WoW right now (a whopping fifteen years later) is a coincidence. Apparently, people had been wanting Vanilla for a very long time. Interesting how Blizzard is now only bringing back Vanilla after millions of people have and continue to quit.
MMO subscriptions in general have been declining for years.
Some people do want Vanilla WoW. Plenty of people do not. Same with Everquest and the TLPs. Same with DAoC and Camelot Unchained.
Your assertion is that people want these Classic experiences because they want long camp times, which I am certain you could find one or two people who think that, but I would be astounded to discover is the case, or even a primary reason.
Chanus said:Syrif said:Chanus said:Syrif said:Yes a game, but we need Pantheon to *stay* fun. This is where we need to seriously consider Pantheon being different from games like WoW where I hear people play it, then get bored of it quickly, then quit. What’s interesting is Blizzard has now admitted that it has to make Vanilla servers to even try and bring players back. If not for poor decisions, Blizzard would not find itself in this situation in the first place for example.
Aboslute nonsense. Original WoW isn't objectively better than current WoW.
Some people prefer original WoW and Blizzard has seen a market opportunity to cater to that demographic. They certainly aren't otherwise hurting for subscriptions in the MMO space.
Nonsense? Ok, then why has Blizzard’s WoW subscriptions been declining drastically (by the millions)? I don’t think WoW’s timing to bring back Vanilla WoW right now (a whopping fifteen years later) is a coincidence. Apparently, people had been wanting Vanilla for a very long time. Interesting how Blizzard is now only bringing back Vanilla after millions of people have and continue to quit.
MMO subscriptions in general have been declining for years.
Some people do want Vanilla WoW. Plenty of people do not. Same with Everquest and the TLPs. Same with DAoC and Camelot Unchained.
Your assertion is that people want these Classic experiences because they want long camp times, which I am certain you could find one or two people who think that, but I would be astounded to discover is the case, or even a primary reason.
Hm. Ok, then why is there declining interest in WoW-Live (per loss of millions of players), while there is growing interesting in Vanilla regarding Blizzard’s official decision to develop Vanilla servers? It seems obvious to me. :)
Keno Monster said:urgatorbait said:Keno Monster said:Items like epic weapons should be hard to acquire and not everyone who is of the approriate level should be guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them.
I apologize if I’m splitting hairs here but everyone should have the “opportunity” to acquire items like epics - so long as they are capable of completing the task. To use the word “opportunity“ implies that no matter how capable or how much support someone has from other players, that they simply cannot acquire said item. That the opportunity does not exist for them.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.
This is complete rubbish.
It's a video game, and everyone should have the same opportunities. It's their choice whether to pursue them and put in the work required to complete epic quests etc or not.
But there cannot be any arbitrary mechanic that just says some people can never get an epic.
You sound like the kind of ignorant person that was born into a trustfund and always has known a rich life, yet goes around saying poor people should just work harder.
Kilsin said:CanadinaXegony said:Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
And guilds that sit on content for months on end...without budging..effectively blocking that content from the rest of the server?? Are they to be bowed down to ..? In the end we ALL pay the same money to play...that's the bottom line. Blocked content is content that I have literally paid for..by buying that expansion or the game....so are these game content blockers better than the rest of us? I agree with lock out timers...nothing else but I don't agree with encouraging elitism and or rewarding for same. There should be at least the opportunity to access for smaller guilds that would like to try their hand. Specifically what I am remembering is the epic weapon quests. Parts of those quests required raids...that either we couldn't manage an invite to...or we were just out of luck til that next expansion reared its head...sometimes that was a year of waiting.. so that can be offputting...hanging around waiting for some lordly guild to get off that spawn so the rest of us lowly beings can have a whack at it.
That is not really the same issue as entitlement, though, that is an issue about camping raid mobs and I have outlined several times my personal opinions on that issue even as a guild/raid leader and given clear examples on how to mitigate it in this thread among others. I agree with you on preventing full guild control over all or certain raid mobs and them being allowed to stop others from having fun and attempting raids.
One of them was on the first page of this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2943/my-only-raid-concern/view/post_id/43444
"We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems."
I am all for equality, meaning no one is entitled to anything, they all have to work for it but equality isn't always fair, it just means you all have equal chances at everything in-game if you pay a monthly subscription.
I really like using this image to explain what I mean as I think it does a good job of putting it in simple terms and although it doesn't exactly fit this situation, it can be molded to at least explain the equality part:Think of the fence as a subscription to the game, that is our barrier to entry, once you pay it you remove the barrier and then you all have equal access to everything that we have created in the game world, the boxes are your own hurdles - time/skill/guild/friends/social interaction/motivation/determination as it is up to everyone to put in the time and effort to obtain items and gear, some players will have more time than others, some will be more skilled than others, some won't be bothered or even try as they enjoy other aspects of the game, some will demand things out of their reach be handed to them but in the end, you will all have ample opportunity to reach your goals, acquire gear and items, some of it will require skill, some of it time and some will rely on others (groups/guilds) to get special items but that is for every player to work towards in their own time, not everyone will get those things but everyone has equal opportunity to try, if smaller guilds can't kill a certain raid boss due to lack of numbers, then they will have to recruit more like-minded players, or work with another guild, or ask for help or start PUGs to attract more people to attempt it, they will still have equal opportunity to try as will everyone in-game.
I hope that makes more sense and please don't think this is directed at you Cana, I just wanted to clear my post up a bit for those who may not fully understand what I meant.
Also, remember we are talking about a very small portion of the game here...the majority of the game will be fun and challenging but most importantly enjoyable for everyone, only some items or places will require extra skillsets/time/challenge to test those that want to be pushed to their limits in with other like-minded people, it doesn't mean they will all succeed though ;)
I think what it really boils down to for me is this:
Would I prefer to overcome gameplay challenges, or overcome other players in order to obtain my goals?
For me, it is gameplay challenges that I crave. I want really tough fights, long and complicated quests, and yes, I'm ok even if a good amount of luck is required. I also want all of this set up in a way that forces us to all rely on each other in order to succeed. If I want that really awesome item, I should be required to invest time in helping others with their goals as well.
However, what I do not want is to have to stand in line because there's only one way to obtain something and half of the server was there before me. I don't want to worry about whether that other group in the dungeon is there to try to take the monster that I'm after and invalidate the last several hours of my play session. I don't want to have to try to wake my guild up at 2 am to do a raid because it only spawns once a week and we need to get it before someone else does.
Shared challenges and interdependence create a strong community. Intentionally pitting players against each other creates a toxic one. That's my position on this debate, now as it has always been.
I'm willing to accept that nothing will be perfect. Even if the developers seek to minimize directly contested content it will still exist because players won't neatly spread out throughout all the available content. We'll decide one boss is easier or one drop is prettier or one dungeon is faster to get through and we'll all pile into those and fight over things. But in those situations I want the option to take the road less traveled and still obtain comparable (and potentially even greater) rewards for the time and effort I put in.
I don't believe that's unreasonable.
Every few months there is a new forum member who comes along and asks...or argues...that Pantheon should be something other than what it has been advertised as from the beginning.
There have been at least a handful of times when the direction of the game has changed over the years from the original "vision" so I guess there is still a possibility that a new member could change the direction of some aspect of development with their ideas even though it seems multiple years late at this point.
VR isn't being held to any timeline so further alterations to the core game ideas are still possible no matter how much many of us disagree with that possibility.
It’s not a bottle neck. It’s a game mechanic that makes you value what you accomplished.
Sitting at a camp for literal days doesn't make me value the "accomplishment" of being lucky enough to be present when something finally does spawn and then not having it stolen away by more powerful players.
It makes me realize what a waste of time playing a game like that becomes.
Chanus said:Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily.
Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.
The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).
Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.
It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.
You don't "get it", that's fine. It's a virtual *world* first, not a game first. Bringing elements of the real world into an MMO like this is what made EQ magical and what has been completely absent from MMO's since then.
Ezrael said:Keno Monster said:urgatorbait said:Keno Monster said:Items like epic weapons should be hard to acquire and not everyone who is of the approriate level should be guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them.
I apologize if I’m splitting hairs here but everyone should have the “opportunity” to acquire items like epics - so long as they are capable of completing the task. To use the word “opportunity“ implies that no matter how capable or how much support someone has from other players, that they simply cannot acquire said item. That the opportunity does not exist for them.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay.
This is complete rubbish.
It's a video game, and everyone should have the same opportunities. It's their choice whether to pursue them and put in the work required to complete epic quests etc or not.
But there cannot be any arbitrary mechanic that just says some people can never get an epic.
You sound like the kind of ignorant person that was born into a trustfund and always has known a rich life, yet goes around saying poor people should just work harder.
And you sound like the type of ignorant person who should go play any other other MMO made since EQ came out. The want something for nothing crowd sure does stand out.
If you are to bottleneck stuff for the die hard PvE players who have the time then possibly there could be open world PVP (equalized of course, not gear based otherwise you eliminate skill based play like you see in modern mmo's like BDO) as well so we can actually compete for the spots accordingly... As they won't be instanced, there needs to be some form of challenge involved instead of stepping in and stealing the kills.
This would balance out positions for the spot and if a person has time that other people don't , they can also have advantages since they might camp it at a time when nobody is around. This would fix the running in and stealing a 7 day spawn time mob like what happened in EQ1 (Fishbone Earring (Sp? i forget the name) and other high camped rare spots)
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As someone who was in a top guild in Veeshan on EQ1 and did many heavily time gated quests as was the norm, it simply won't work in today's environment even with this type of playerbase for a variety of reasons and one of them is not to have it easier or "entitled" which is ironic because having time is not indicative of hard work and is usually quite the contrary as it mostly just means a lack of hard work IRL (unless you're retired) as you most likely have no job and live with your parents or on a college loan and can afford the time spent to do it all day - this is not hard work, it's just time. You either have it or you don't.
it's not exactly hard to sit and wait around for a spawn and never was , it came down to time and luck and it was never fulfilling because of the work involved , it was fulfilling because you were finally done..
There was no exhilarating rush like you did with raiding a boss that had a 30% success rate and finally getting it after 100 tries like when you sat and waited for an epic drop in a time where there weren't websites entirely dedicated to teaching strats etc - you had to learn them and do them on your own with no streams to watch top guilds doing it.
Time gated questing was honestly just annoying, and most of my guild members shared the same feeling , it was annoying and in a time without discord , much harder than it ever was now.
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A main reason why it won't work is because of technology and community connectedness in today's era.
There will be discords dedicated to this, which will ramp up positional competition, it's not like before where you had to call somebody on a landline to get assistance because you were the only one there.
There will be alts parked there, discords dedicated to this, guilds coordinating to push their members to have it , people paying for somebody to camp their account there while they work IRL. This is all exists now and some of it existed back then making it borderline impossible to achieve.
This doesn't make the game experience fun anymore or provide a better QoL. When EQ1 was the 1st mmo for most people and one of the 1st mmo's of it's genre, especially highly popularized, and with a younger generation playerbase at that time all the while being in a less technologically advanced system like today's , it was fine and in that time it fit with the genre's motives , albeit it was still annoyingly boring to do.
Most of the people talking about how they did it and talking about entitlement.. You most likely had 90% more time to accomplish these things and were a lot younger playing your 1st mmo in a less community technological era, so when you were doing it and the nostalgic feeling of doing those quests gave you a sense of fulfillment.
Just think on the direction of implementing this because while people loved EQ1 , it wasn't because you sat waiting for a time gated quest for 7 days... It was mob difficulty, group content and forced coordination, raid content, slower paced combat, actually hard progression , etc.
azaya said:So I'm just currious, what mechanics people would envision for making some items truely rare in the game if everyone was given quick access to every mob?
Raids? Difficult group level encounters? Long quest chains leading to the prized reward at the end?
There are myriad ways to make content that is prized and rare other than simply a ridiculously improbable RNG spawn or drop rate.
RNG not only wastes time, it is just as likely to reward someone who put in no effort and got lucky as it is someone who put in the most effort and got unlucky.
Chanus said:azaya said:So I'm just currious, what mechanics people would envision for making some items truely rare in the game if everyone was given quick access to every mob?
Raids? Difficult group level encounters? Long quest chains leading to the prized reward at the end?
There are myriad ways to make content that is prized and rare other than simply a ridiculously improbable RNG spawn or drop rate.
RNG not only wastes time, it is just as likely to reward someone who put in no effort and got lucky as it is someone who put in the most effort and got unlucky.
RNG to me is what kills MMOs when it is paired with time and waiting for something without doing anything involving skill except just waiting. On another note too , it encourages people to pay 3rd parties to sit on their account all day and through the night taking shifts (yes, this happens in MMOs) to get their item because most people don't like doing it, it's boring and like i said in my previous post, with technology like streams , discord, informational websites etc etc you'll be sitting there with 50-100+ other people waiting for the spawn. It's just not realistic anymore like it was in 1999-2000..
Agreed with Chanus, there are so many fun gates that involve actual skill that could be accomplished outside of this RNG route that would even be more difficult to accompish than just sitting around and waiting for a spawn, the obvious form or mainstream form should be raids, or high quality achievements that involve special tasks outside of just sitting around waiting for a spawn.
I am conflicted when it comes to bottle necks. I strongly believe that they are needed to make items rare and hard to get. I think some items need to be hard enough acquire to almost guarantee that not everyone will take the time to get it. Most items still should be available to everyone or almost everyone that puts in the time and gathers the right support.
But I also feel strongly that a game should always strive to be fun and to limit bad encounters with other players. So, while I see why long spawn times are used, I would love to see other ways to meet the same goal. Long spawn times can’t be the only way to meet the desired goal of a rare items.
I think it was this thread that someone talked about the VT key in EQ. As much as hated getting that key it was infinitely better than fighting over the timed spawn of Phinigel Autropos for my wizard’s epic. At least with the VT key I was grouping and playing not setting alarm clocks and sitting waiting hoping when it did spawn, I would be able to get others to login and help me kill it before someone else logged in and killed it first.
Chanus said:azaya said:So I'm just currious, what mechanics people would envision for making some items truely rare in the game if everyone was given quick access to every mob?
Raids? Difficult group level encounters? Long quest chains leading to the prized reward at the end?
There are myriad ways to make content that is prized and rare other than simply a ridiculously improbable RNG spawn or drop rate.
RNG not only wastes time, it is just as likely to reward someone who put in no effort and got lucky as it is someone who put in the most effort and got unlucky.
I wasan't advocating for one thing or another, it sounds like some want no RNG and accessible mobs...ok. So assuming that those that like this also want rare items to exist, then it begged the question, what mechanincs would you envision to make rare items truely rare?
Raids, Group content and long quest chains don't make items rare however, though they are good things in their own right. Likely all the drops coming from those things will be owned by many players over time, thus not rare. Even in old EQ many people had their epics, in spite of the RNG mob spawns. Each epic quest encompased all 3 factors you mention, Raid, Group and long quest lines, not to mention the solo pieces; I really enjoyed epic quests back in the day, but the RNG mobs were frustrating for sure.
So it seems then, the only way to make something rare is to place it on a riduculously difficult Raid, Group mob, quest, so that only a small percentage of people will in essense be lucky enough (RNG) to be in the correct Raid, Group at the time said encounter is finally defeated and very few groups ever achieve this but many get to try.
Essentially this is moving the RNG from the random number generator into the difficulty factor vs group makup and player skill arena; maybe a good thing?
So then is it better to give players fewer encounters(RNG) but more kills on a given boss (feels good) OR give players more failures on a given boss(feels bad) but more opportunities to try (feels good)? Yes I know there will be those locking stuff down either way, but just for the sake of the mechanics, which is better? Maybe there is yet another mechaic to create rarity?
Maybe to answer that you would have to first define, what is rare? Does that mean that only 1%, 10% or 15% of players will ever achieve something? Or maybe rare is just a state of mind and in reality 50% of players acheive something.
Although we all seem to advocate for difficulty, in reality it feels like a difficult but beatable and learnable mob is more enjoyable than a mob that can hardly ever be defeated.
Or do we just throw the whole rarity thing out the window and everyone gets everything eventualy? Eq attempted to achieve rarity with RNG, but it didn't work, what would work do you think?
-Az
azaya said:Chanus said:azaya said:So I'm just currious, what mechanics people would envision for making some items truely rare in the game if everyone was given quick access to every mob?
Raids? Difficult group level encounters? Long quest chains leading to the prized reward at the end?
There are myriad ways to make content that is prized and rare other than simply a ridiculously improbable RNG spawn or drop rate.
RNG not only wastes time, it is just as likely to reward someone who put in no effort and got lucky as it is someone who put in the most effort and got unlucky.
I wasan't advocating for one thing or another, it sounds like some want no RNG and accessible mobs...ok. So assuming that those that like this also want rare items to exist, then it begged the question, what mechanincs would you envision to make rare items truely rare?
Raids, Group content and long quest chains don't make items rare however, though they are good things in their own right. Likely all the drops coming from those things will be owned by many players over time, thus not rare. Even in old EQ many people had their epics, in spite of the RNG mob spawns. Each epic quest encompased all 3 factors you mention, Raid, Group and long quest lines, not to mention the solo pieces; I really enjoyed epic quests back in the day, but the RNG mobs were frustrating for sure.
So it seems then, the only way to make something rare is to place it on a riduculously difficult Raid, Group mob, quest, so that only a small percentage of people will in essense be lucky enough (RNG) to be in the correct Raid, Group at the time said encounter is finally defeated and very few groups ever achieve this but many get to try.
Essentially this is moving the RNG from the random number generator into the difficulty factor vs group makup and player skill arena; maybe a good thing?
So then is it better to give players fewer encounters(RNG) but more kills on a given boss (feels good) OR give players more failures on a given boss(feels bad) but more opportunities to try (feels good)? Yes I know there will be those locking stuff down either way, but just for the sake of the mechanics, which is better? Maybe there is yet another mechaic to create rarity?
Maybe to answer that you would have to first define, what is rare? Does that mean that only 1%, 10% or 15% of players will ever achieve something? Or maybe rare is just a state of mind and in reality 50% of players acheive something.
Although we all seem to advocate for difficulty, in reality it feels like a difficult but beatable and learnable mob is more enjoyable than a mob that can hardly ever be defeated.
Or do we just throw the whole rarity thing out the window and everyone gets everything eventualy? Eq attempted to achieve rarity with RNG, but it didn't work, what would work do you think?
-Az
I'm probably not the one to answer the question as I heartily oppose the idea that items should be rare or exclusive or that only certain people deserve certain rewards.
I don't mind things being challenging, or taking a lot of effort, or taking a long time (so long as it is active time and not sitting afk waiting for an audio trigger to go off).
I don't see any intrinsic good in items being rare just for the sake of being rare. If they're rare, in-era, because they are difficult to acquire, that is fine. I understand the level of prestige some people attach to that.
There is absolutely no reason I can see why items should always remain rare, or be arbitrarily blocked for certain people to attain simply because they weren't first in line, or the most leet, or whatever dumb metric makes some deserve things and others not.
It's a game. If you play it and you do what is required, you deserve any reward that is available. That's the bottom line.
Here is an awesome quote from Brad that should be of interest to folks following this thread:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3564/quick-switch-for-gear/view/page/9
"The Event System can actually be summarized pretty easily: Things have a status. Things listen for event triggers. Event triggers can be anything and you could keep adding and adding them. It could be a simple time of day. The thing is a mob of a pretty woman, status non-aggro. It listens for Time of Day triggers. The change of the clock to midnight creates a trigger that the woman becomes aware of. The Event is that when the midnight trigger occurs, the woman transforms into a vampire. It's really a very open system that could be taken very far (and I hope it eventually is).
The goal is Dynamics in a sense -- the content is not always the same and it can change. And again anything that minimizes obvious repetition and the Groundhog Effect plague is generally a good thing.
Smart use would be to start with simple triggers and events, nothing that truly impacts the game or the players, but something that is at least noticeable when you are playing and makes exploring our world a little different and varied.
The slightly more advanced example I've given before (although we've still only scratched the surface) is the Hill Giant/Storm Giant War.
There is a Hill Giant camp in the world, and it is *nasty*. Either even a raid couldn't break into the camp or perhaps we don't allow raids there.
But sometimes the Storm Giants come out of the heavens and attack the Hill Giants. What triggers this? It could be player driven, and could be obvious and simple or very complex, requiring you to have a guildmate on the other side of world who must ring an ancient bell that triggers earthquakes. Sometimes the Hill Giants are forced into disarray because of the earthquake, their guards move inside the gates, the inhabitants are distracted and not watching as vigilantly for an attack. The earthquake happens while you and your friends are watching, hiding from a distance. Sure enough, a Storm Giant army dynamically spawns and heads towards the gates of the Hill Giant fortress. You follow at a safe distance. A huge battle breaks out, giants of both varieties are dying on all sides. What would have been impossible normally (free movement in the Hill Giant region) is now possible. The Hill Giant mobs could change to as they react to the invasion. Certainly the Storm Giant mobs are interesting because they're not normally even spawned.
The adept and clever guild watches for events like this and opportunistically takes advantage of them. In this example they let the two giant clans battle it out, occasionally coming out of hiding a picking off a few mobs that don't normally spawn. Lo and behold, they also spawn with items that are only attainable during this Invasion Event. The game's content changed, rare items were temporarily obtainable, and it made you and your friends pay attention to what was going on in the world.... if you don't have someone, for example, at least occasionally checking to see if the Storm Giants have attacked then you're going to miss it (and the players who pay better attention won't). Or perhaps nobody paid attention, it was off-hours, and the invasion took place but there were no players around to do anything about it.
Regions could be enterable in certain conditions but not in others. NPCs could interact with each other with the result being meaningful to the player. Items can be made very rare but appear more naturally... instead of the valued vambraces only dropping 1 out of 500 times, encouraging players to kill the mob over and over again (boring, repetitiv, you could have the trigger for the Storm Giant invasion be just as statistically rare, but since you're following an event and killing the mob that only spawns during the Invasion once, you not only got the desired item but obtaining it was hopefully much more entertaining."
