@vjek: I think you're overly pessimistic. There certainly are nasty people out there, but I believe a great majority of the players just want to enjoy the game and have a good time. You tend to hear more about the bad stories tho.
That said, for me personally etiquette means simply "Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself".
Just as kreed said, it's only spreading if we accept to bypass etiquette and morale to do the same.
I played as a monk during one or two years of EQ, and I never trained anybody or used FD as a malicious tool, and I will never. That's my choice, maybe some other nuthead will train me one day, but that wont make me choose the other side of the coin. In moderns games, character have no value at all (1 week levelling at most, name and race changes at will), matchmaking system makes this even worse thus reputation doesn't work at all.
In a game where your character and name matter, you can be ostracized, even if it might lead to nutguilds later on, it remains a sociopath behaviour that will end to exclusion sooner or later, and game policy break.
Don't make a generality of a few % of the EQ playerbase back then, or of P99's high end community / progression server which replays the very same raid bosses since 8 years. Bad behaviours aren't a normal attitude and aren't commonly used in standart scenarios.
I don't know what time and games made to you folks, but really, if you all remember EQ's old day as beeing fulled with griefers and antisocial norms, maybe there is a big black marker erasing all good memories from your mind, or it's time to stop playing any game in fear of other peoples.
MauvaisOeil said:In a game where your character and name matter, you can be ostracized, even if it might lead to nutguilds later on, it remains a sociopath behaviour that will end to exclusion sooner or later, and game policy break.
Don't make a generality of a few % of the EQ playerbase back then, or of P99's high end community / progression server which replays the very same raid bosses since 8 years. Bad behaviours aren't a normal attitude and aren't commonly used in standart scenarios.
I don't know what time and games made to you folks, but really, if you all remember EQ's old day as beeing fulled with griefers and antisocial norms, maybe there is a big black marker erasing all good memories from your mind, or it's time to stop playing any game in fear of other peoples.
Bad behaviors may not be the norm but they aren't exactly rare these days either, and they were a real problem even back in 1999 EQ. Those limited instances of negative behavior have a way of overshadowing a lot of good times/memories, no one wants to feel helpless and/or abused by others so when it happens the memory really sticks out.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - MMORPG Etiquette - What are some of your make or break etiquette rules for grouping up in a social game - Bonus - What are some etiquette rules you feel OK breaking within a group or social situation in an MMORPG? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Wow, raised on a mountain and trying to use long hair to hide my red neck "etiquette" has never been a strong point for me. But somehow i feel obligated to reply. I guess it's as simple as if are they good people or not, thats easy to tell straight off. And i also believe in everyone deserves a secound chance. On the other hand I'm a firm believer in "screw me once (if i went to battle for you to have a scound chance) shame on you, screw me twice and i will make you pay for the rest of your natural born life" isn't that the way that saying goes?
As far as etiquette rules "ok" to break, I know I have advocated before in favor of running a train to the zone even if players are standing there. And I stand by that, although i would agree it's "bad form" I peronally would stand and die and take the death, but i would hold no grudge against anyone training me at the zone... I should know better (and i do) as I said before, bring it!
Iksar said:MauvaisOeil said:In a game where your character and name matter, you can be ostracized, even if it might lead to nutguilds later on, it remains a sociopath behaviour that will end to exclusion sooner or later, and game policy break.
Don't make a generality of a few % of the EQ playerbase back then, or of P99's high end community / progression server which replays the very same raid bosses since 8 years. Bad behaviours aren't a normal attitude and aren't commonly used in standart scenarios.
I don't know what time and games made to you folks, but really, if you all remember EQ's old day as beeing fulled with griefers and antisocial norms, maybe there is a big black marker erasing all good memories from your mind, or it's time to stop playing any game in fear of other peoples.
Bad behaviors may not be the norm but they aren't exactly rare these days either, and they were a real problem even back in 1999 EQ. Those limited instances of negative behavior have a way of overshadowing a lot of good times/memories, no one wants to feel helpless and/or abused by others so when it happens the memory really sticks out.
Possibly, yes. I really don't know how things will turn out, but I don't want to advocate for a fear of the worse. This is not shadowbane (except on Pvp server maybe, but with less area control), players will have a limited ability to harm others and even if they do, the challenge, the difficulty, the need of others, might be enough to tone down the behaviour we fear and generalize into little pockets of quickly forgotten problems.
MauvaisOeil said:Possibly, yes. I really don't know how things will turn out, but I don't want to advocate for a fear of the worse. This is not shadowbane (except on Pvp server maybe, but with less area control), players will have a limited ability to harm others and even if they do, the challenge, the difficulty, the need of others, might be enough to tone down the behaviour we fear and generalize into little pockets of quickly forgotten problems.
It isn't an unjustified fear/concern though, it has real teeth and will almost certainly be an issue if the approach is mostly hands off or devoid of rules in favor of "community policing" and social reputations. Even if it is a small percentage of players running around being abusing others any way they can within the game mechanics, they will make big waves that can damage the game. The EQ team learned this as well; from March of 2000:
"...Also like any society, we have our underbelly, a relatively small number of people who live to prey upon the honorable. It is frequently the goal of these people to see to their desires, no matter the effect of their actions upon others around them. They are the ones who claim ownership of servers, zones, or spawns, and cause or threaten harm to anyone who does not share their disregard and contempt. They are the ones who live, not to enjoy the game with everyone else, but to enjoy at everyone else’s expense.
For the first few months after EverQuest’s release, we felt that a policy of non-interference in many of these matters was warranted. However, we continued to lose good players. This was not due to any deficiency or dissatisfaction in the game, but due to dissatisfaction with the treatment that they received from their fellow players, and the perceived inability of our Customer Service department to intervene. Late last year, we made a commitment to our players to begin playing an active role in many of these situations.
The intent of these policies is to provide the players with general guidelines for what is or is not acceptable behavior in EverQuest, and give them the opportunity to work out differences prior to involving the EverQuest Customer Service Staff. Naturally, in a game as multifaceted as EverQuest, we are not able to cover every possible issue that could arise as part of these policies. In these cases, it is the spirit of a rule that will prevail over any discrepancies in the letter."
I just don't want to see Pantheon suffer and lose good people due to an approach that is too laissez-faire.
I agree with your last post, IKsar. Thanks for that. Personally, I would like to see forced server moves for repeated bad behavior. If someone wants to play in the manner, let them. On a server full of people just like him. In fact, I would be all for a totally red server JUST for these types of folks. Hell, I might even play on it with a toon JUST BECAUSE. But I do agree, if they are going to interfere with honest paying customers so much so that they stop paying and leave, they need to go to the prison server.
MauvaisOeil said: ... players will have a limited ability to harm others and even if they do, the challenge, the difficulty, the need of others, might be enough to tone down the behaviour we fear and generalize into little pockets of quickly forgotten problems.
Players will have, by intentional confirmed design, the ability to maliciously FD train others for as long as there are no GMs online, which could be up to 16 hours a day, post launch. Training others will allow the toxic players to harm other paying customers in the worst possible way: time spent advancing personal progress is lost. You ain't gettin' that time back. :|
Also, as has been pointed out hundreds of times on these forums, community policing will not work in 2020. Especially without paid-employee 24x7 GMs in game. Right now, on every EQLive TLP server, and on P1999, there are guilds of over 150 like minded individuals who do not interact with, care about, or in any way suffer any negative consequences due to their toxicity. There are 150 of them! Why would they care about the rest of the server, at all? They do exactly what the gameplay mechanics permit, 24 hours a day. They take what they want, when they want, from whoever they want. They earn a living from the game by abusing it and all the other paying customers, and the one thing they NEVER do? Break the TOS or EULA.
They are simply playing the game in the way the game permits. Just like all the FD Malicious training monks we've seen in the videos up to this point in Pantheon, which has been done for laughs, but proves the point. This will be possible, and if it's possible, it will be done by that guild of 150 toxic paying customers.
Step 1 to fixing this guaranteed toxic atmosphere for Pantheon? Fix Feign Death so it can't be used for malicious training. Then set a public policy that any subsequent future emergent gameplay that allows one customer to negatively affect anothers gameplay experience in this same egregious fashion will be similarily and immediately fixed/removed.
vjek said:MauvaisOeil said: ... players will have a limited ability to harm others and even if they do, the challenge, the difficulty, the need of others, might be enough to tone down the behaviour we fear and generalize into little pockets of quickly forgotten problems.Players will have, by intentional confirmed design, the ability to maliciously FD train others for as long as there are no GMs online, which could be up to 16 hours a day, post launch. Training others will allow the toxic players to harm other paying customers in the worst possible way: time spent advancing personal progress is lost. You ain't gettin' that time back. :|
Also, as has been pointed out hundreds of times on these forums, community policing will not work in 2020. Especially without paid-employee 24x7 GMs in game. Right now, on every EQLive TLP server, and on P1999, there are guilds of over 150 like minded individuals who do not interact with, care about, or in any way suffer any negative consequences due to their toxicity. There are 150 of them! Why would they care about the rest of the server, at all? They do exactly what the gameplay mechanics permit, 24 hours a day. They take what they want, when they want, from whoever they want. They earn a living from the game by abusing it and all the other paying customers, and the one thing they NEVER do? Break the TOS or EULA.
They are simply playing the game in the way the game permits. Just like all the FD Malicious training monks we've seen in the videos up to this point in Pantheon, which has been done for laughs, but proves the point. This will be possible, and if it's possible, it will be done by that guild of 150 toxic paying customers.Step 1 to fixing this guaranteed toxic atmosphere for Pantheon? Fix Feign Death so it can't be used for malicious training. Then set a public policy that any subsequent future emergent gameplay that allows one customer to negatively affect anothers gameplay experience in this same egregious fashion will be similarily and immediately fixed/removed.
As I said, you can't use TLP or P99 servers as arguments. Theses players are farming the very same content for 9 years, content that have been completely watered by modern computers, better bandwidth, understanding of game mechanics and perpetual re-do of the very same bosses. It's like hanging in a skatepark for 10 years, you get bored, you try other things, you become territorial.
Of course any griefed time won't be recovered, but aren't you making a generality of some things that even if they happened in 1999, were rare and earned a bad rep ?
It's not 1999 anymore, I agree, but it's not 10 years of EQ with the same expansions shipping order either.
vjek said:There are 150 of them! Why would they care about the rest of the server, at all? They do exactly what the gameplay mechanics permit, 24 hours a day. They take what they want, when they want, from whoever they want. They earn a living from the game by abusing it and all the other paying customers, and the one thing they NEVER do? Break the TOS or EULA.
Yes I agree . Toxic players exist and their number in a given population is the same today as 30 years ago . Time does nothing to change it and if a game is successful with a large population , their number on any server is mechanically larger than in a game with small population .
Those who played EQ on E'ci between 99 and 2001 probably remember a guild Souls of Shadow (or a similar name) which was exactly that . Right after the release . They were indeed only 150 and back then the population of people registered on a server was anywhere between 5 000 and 10 000 . A negligible ultra toxic minority of 1 % . Yet they made a living hell for the rest of 99 % . Self policing ? Reputation ? They didn't need anybody , didn't group with anybody and reputation was really the last thing they would care about . Nobody knows how many people left the server or the game because of them . But it must have been enough because Sony finished by stepping in and banned the whole guild . E'ci became a much better place after that .
The point of all that is that if Pantheon is successful and there are several thousands registered players on a server then there will be a hundred of ultra toxic players too . And they will band together . It is not a matter of if but of when . It is like in RL . A group of decent people can deal with 1 bad individual but they cannot deal with a violent gang . For that there is the police wich will use much stronger tools that a group of decent people would not be allowed to . That's why , like in the E'ci case , the only way to get rid of a toxic gang on a Pantheon server is that VR steps in and does the work . TOS and EULA are irrelevant and PnPs and etiquettes are wishful thinking if there is not a real will of the developper to enforce them systematically .
I think that patching the game all the time with ad hoc modifications like removing FD would be inefficient and in a way would just tell the toxic players "OK , you are bastards but now you will be bastards who need to find something else than FD to continue to harm people ." And they will ...
fazool said:KS-ing. If someone does it in my group I will leave the group and not be part of it.
I am also against vehement NBG nonsense. Watching a Wizard pick up three wands in a row (so he can sell two of them), and the warrior could sell one to afford an upgraded breastplate.
From the NGB debate I have a better unbderstading of what would keep its original intention- that being, the "second step". Customarily NGB means if the item is an upgrade, it goes to one that it upgrades, but the second step would be the upgraded one then giving up their old item for random to the other players in the group so they could do whatever. If 2 more wands drop, all would be randomed for the wizard already got the upgrade.
Its the second step that I think was missing.
As far as etiquette, I agree with pretty much what everyone else said :) I also like to make clear to new joiners what the loot rules are, and to encourage mentioning if anyone needs specific things like tradeskill items. Also to inform new joiners what classes are in the group because if we get two of the same class, those two can talk amongst themselves and strategize.
NBG is easily exploited, and actually is a tool to more effectively rip people off with any item that does bind when picked up, EQ probably had one of the best economies ive ever seen due to the fact people werent using NBG, The only reason to use NBG would be in a guild group.raid environment where everyone knows exactly what you have in your inventory due to documents mainly, and secondly just being around you and knowing what you have grabbed in your adventures. Otherwise you are hovering close to the entitlement mindset which leads to no drop items, which leads to a shitty economy, which leads to a shitty community, which leads to a SORPG (Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game) like every other so called wannabe "MMORPG" out there today, Point is the struggle has to not be worth it to make it worth it, meaning you shouldnt be looking foward to anything in which makes anything even more pleasurable when it comes along. Change my mind.
Manouk said:/inspect
If someone knows what camp(s) they are going after then they unequip whatever valuable item(s) in the slot(s) they seek to fill and replace with something cheap but realistic well before being invited to or making it to the camp.
Iksar said:Manouk said:/inspect
If someone knows what camp(s) they are going after then they unequip whatever valuable item(s) in the slot(s) they seek to fill and replace with something cheap but realistic well before being invited to or making it to the camp.
I thought I already posted this but I know a rogue who would do that all time. He'd transfer his FBSS to an alt and go camp it again, he'd push for NBG too. This guy was shady though.
EppE said:Iksar said:Manouk said:/inspect
If someone knows what camp(s) they are going after then they unequip whatever valuable item(s) in the slot(s) they seek to fill and replace with something cheap but realistic well before being invited to or making it to the camp.
I thought I already posted this but I know a rogue who would do that all time. He'd transfer his FBSS to an alt and go camp it again, he'd push for NBG too. This guy was shady though.
You're right, I didnt even think of that. Or even stuff into a bag and have the bogus item out when you show what you are replacing, like folks on PvP servers used to do when they knew they were going to die- stuff as much of the good gear in their bags before they died sdo as to not allow the victor to grab an item. real cheesy.
Ediquette is for Disney movies! I love meeting new people, seeing how they play, getting that rush of excitement when you find a good group, getting the bitter disappointment when those sour players make an evening bad. That guy that was made that you dropped him from the group because he was sitting AFK for 1 hour non-responsive and brings his guild in to kill everything in the area so you dont get anything? yeah.. those guys too. Everyone has their own unique personallity and getting to know all those personallities is part of what makes the game so enjoyable! Having the ability to make yourself Famous or Notorious simply by a single action or every day actions is what makes these games so enticing to a lot of players. (that and the skimpily dressed women of course).
I vote no-holds-barred. let what will be, be, and see how the world of players and NPC factions sort it out.
Nephele said:I might not be awake enough for this thread yet this morning but I'll try:
1) Loot distribution - the group leader needs to be up front and transparent about how they're doing it, and players need to respect each other and make an effort to fairly distribute, rather than being greedy
2) Setting expectations about what the group is there for - are we going after a certain item or quest objective? Just working on experience?
3) Respecting everyone else in the group - making sure they're ready before you run off to the next room or start to pull, etc.
4) Not telling other people how to play their classes, not criticizing them for how they're playing.
5) Not demanding everyone use voice chat. Offering is ok, demanding is not.
6) Not criticizing other people in the group for their gear or ability choices.
7) Communicating with the group - letting the group know you'll have to leave in advance instead of just ghosting, that sort of thing.
This pretty much sums up most of my MMO make or break list.
Egos are usually the biggest problem in games and with people in general. As a casual gamer with a hardcore gamer past, I have encounter a larger and larger number or players ( primarily in MMO's ) that act like everything from passive agressive to online alpha dogs, bossing others around with their high expectations and demands. Treat others as you want to be treated is my rule.
Nephretiti said:Just how long until someone decides to including a Group Usage ToS, Code of Conduct, and NDA? We are heading that way with all of this...
Not really. I think some of us are just expecting people to be polite, courteous, and considerate. That doesn't seem like too much to ask.