Ruar said:I've read the FAQ and other material. I'm also fully aware that things change over time and designers that have one idea in mind might go a different route as time goes on.
And I don't understand why having a graveyard makes a game not hardcore. Timers and other options to make it so death still matters, so corpse runs still matter, while at the same time not requiring someone to spend hours trying to get all the corpses out of Fear. I'm not young anymore and I don't have hours to spend doing corpse runs but at the same time I desire a game with challenging content.
Why does challenging content also have to come with a ton of tedium simply so some players can think of themselves as being better than others. Here's a hint... you aren't a better gamer, you just have more time to spend playing.
It has nothing to do with thinking of ourselves as better than others. It's all about having more variety of mmorpgs available so people have a choice available to them of what they want to play. Much of what you mention in OP already exists in other games. What we want is something pretty different from what widely exists and already dominates the mmo market at the moment. It is my opinion that the less Pantheon is like WoW and EQ-Live, the better. More depth and challenge. If some people feel they don't have very much time to themselves, then they have choices available to them. Others such as myself who want more depth to a game, well, that's what Pantheon will accomplish - giving us more options. Also having a diversity of different mmorpgs available. #communitymatters
So I thought of an anology for how the hardcore players are acting.
Imagine MMOs are old west towns. EQ kind of kicked it off and as time progressed the towns became more and more modern. Eventually a group of people said "we want to start a new old west town and we're going to make it more like the original instead of the modern versions". A lot of people love this idea because they are nostalgic for old west towns that actually look like an old west town.
More time passes and the town is being discussed, buildings are starting to be constructed, rules are beginning to take shape. A lot of people want some convience with their old west town because while nostalgia is nice technology has advanced and we don't have to do everything like it used to be done.
People want to be able to drive their cars close to the town and walk a short distance. The old guard decries this idea though. Naysayers say "you can't drive closer than 10 miles and then you have to ride a horse those 10 miles to come to town". Why 10 miles though? Because I remember having to ride a horse for 20 minutes and everyone should have to do the same. So why can't I drive my car half a mile away and walk and you go ahead and stop 10 miles out and ride your horse?
People want to wear replica clothes made with modern machinery. Naysers are like, "all clothing worn in the old west town has to be hand spun on a loom and stitched with handmade needles or you aren't welcome in the town". Why can't you just wear the period the clothing and I get to wear what I want? Why does everyone have to wear the clothes you approve of wearing?
People want to use modern stoves and refrigerators to hold the food that is cooked to old time recipes. Again the naysayers pop up. "Only iceboxes, smoking, or salting is allowed to store food regardless of how it ends up prepared". But why can't you just order the authentic food while the rest of us enjoy something that we prefer?
In the end almost every single complaint by the hardcore group is simply that they want everyone else to play their way even if it doesn't really make sense, isn't really fun, and compromising takes nothing away. Don't want to drive a car to the town? Then ride your horse, no one is forcing you to take the car. Don't want to wear replica clothes? Then don't, no one is forcing you to wear something you don't want to wear. Don't want to eat food stored in modern devices? Then don't, no one is going to hold your mouth open and cram food into you.
But please don't sit here and tell other people they have to eat the food you approve, get to the town the way you approve, and wear the clothes you approve because somehow your nostalgia means more than anyone else's view of what's fun.
Ruar said:Selling items. Should Pantheon have automated auctions or require live interaction? A way to include both is to have an automated auction house buying and selling while at the same time adding in a fee for convienence. Players can log onto the auction system and offer their goods at a booth and there is no fee for using that player provided service. A captcha like system requiring the player to read a sentence and then answer a question can be used each hour to avoid being kicked out of the auction interface. Players who want to interact are rewarded while others who prefer to just buy and sell can do so at a cost.
The current plan is to implement regional auction houses. I have personal experience playing an old school / hardcore MMO that did this and my opinion is that it worked great. There are a lot of misconceptions out there on how these might work -- the reality is that player to player trade can thrive in an environment that leverages regional auction houses. As long as there are limitations to the system and incentives to barter outside of it, we should all be able to enjoy a flourishing player-driven economy.
Ruar said:Travel. This one can also cater to both types of people. I think most will agree that any fast travel unlocks would require finding that location manually before being allowed to use it. There should be a system of teleport hubs and automated horse/griffin/boat routes. Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other is just tedious design. At the same time the teleport hubs should be on a timer system to allow a market for player provided teleports. Additionally the player teleport locations should be placed closer to the popular assembly locations while the system teleports and transportation hubs should require a small amount of running to hit the popular areas. Example would be system travel to city gates while player travel is to dungeon entrances.
I think your mind is in the right place here. I think most people do indeed agree that players should have to manually visit a teleportation spire or druid ring before being able to utilize them. I think most people would be okay if intercontinental travel was gated behind riding a boat. In-zone travel will probably be limited to running on foot (with potential speed buffs from other players) for awhile until we are able to secure a mount. Meaningful travel is incredibly important in an open-world game and has an impact on many other core aspects of gameplay. I think this is an area where some of us may need to forego a degree of desired convenience but with the understanding that it will make the world a better place, truly.
Ruar said:Game time. How much time should be considered a normal playing session? Over the years a consistent answer I've seen for this question has been two hours. Then the question becomes what can be done in that two hours. If players spend 30 minutes LFG or 30 minutes travelling at the front end and another 30 minutes travelling at the back end then they only end up with an hour of actual play time. It's another reason why I think we need system travel to cut down on the tedium of losing play time. Even with two hours being an average play time there still needs to be content for people who have less time to be logged in. I think this is where instanced content is the answer. Having instanced dungeons or challenges that allow players to have fun and make some progress while not providing the best rewards is a good compromise. Someone can do an instanced dungeon with three people and get a decent item that isn't as good as the same item but from the non-instanced dungeon.
Instanced content is not the answer. The answer lies in the game tenets. As long as VR delivers us a vast open-world game where content is king, there will be plenty of ways for us to occupy our time. The great thing about an open world game is that every chunk of content is more meaningful. The world is full of opportunity -- it's up to each player to embrace the idea that risk/reward is ever present. Accomplishing something meaningful doesn't have to be weighed by the amount of loot we acquire or the progress we make in a dungeon. There are intangibles at play here.
Ruar said:Corpse runs. Graveyards are an amazing stress reducer and I think they should be a staple of every MMO simply because they make mistakes bearable. That being said I think there is a very good argument for having corpse runs still be an integral part of the gaming experience. A good compromise is to allow a graveyard to be instantly used once every 36 hours or so and then there's a 60 minute timer before it can be used again. So one mistake doesn't ruin a gaming session but the player has to be careful afterwards or they will need to do a corpse run or do something non-combat until the timer expires. Having a 10 minute debuff timer after using the graveyard and having an additional 10% exp penalty as well can provide incentive to do the corpse run while not being so punishing that players are afraid to play the game.
The death penalty won't be finalized until beta. My personal preference would look like this:
1) Every death results in a loss of 15% XP, with the possibility to de-level.
2) Finding your corpse will grant you 10% XP. (Corpses last 2 hours before decaying.)
3) Being rezzed will restore X% of XP. (10-13% depending on spell quality.)
4) Certain climates/atmospheres can cause corpses to decay at a faster rate.
5) A "Temporary" variable that can be applied to certain loot or buffs. Anything with this variable would be lost upon death.
Ruar said:Rare spawn mobs. This is always a big contention point because people who want to feel elite in a game need some kind of yardstick by which to measure their success. Being the first to complete a goal isn't enough because there needs to be some way to show others who is at a higher level of the game. Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out. Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over. The problem with this idea is that the majority of your players are unable to participate in content which pushes people away. A better way of designing content is to ensure all quests can be spawned by the person doing the quest and have no requirement for a rare spawn mob. Quests are what really drive a game so bottlenecking quests is a good way to kill the interest of your player base. To provide more than just rare gear items the rare spawn mobs need to have unique, and limited, cosmetic items. Mounts, wardrobe, housing, or banner items can all be used to help elite players show they are elite while still allowing casual players the ability to complete quests and occasionally get a cool item.
Alleviating bottlenecks is an obstacle that will be attacked from multiple fronts. I don't think every quest mob in the game should be force-popped but I do think it's generally a bad idea to gate access keys or other important quest updates behind NPC's that have a respawn window greater than 3-4 hours, especially if they have standard loot tables. It's possible that we'll see some sort of lockout mechanic that prevents players from monopolizing certain content.
Ruar said:Flags/keys/gear checks. Using flags or keys is a way to ensure players are forced to participate in different content. The problem with these mechanisms is too often they create a lot of work for guilds to ensure new members are flagged and keyed only to watch those members move on later. The keys do differentiate the hardcore players from the casuals be creating a gear check or time check system. A way to compromise on this is automatically awarding keys for old content once new material is released. Casual players will still have to get keyed for new content if they want to experience it sooner, but guilds will not have to spend endless cycles going through old content in order to raid specific areas.
In an ideal world ... old content won't be invalidated when a new expansion launches. I would like to see an expansion timeline that looks like this:
1) Launch
2) Year 1 -- First Expansion: New content added. No level cap increase.
3) Year 2 -- Second Expansion: New content added. Level cap increased by 5.
4) Year 3 -- Third Expansion: New content added. No level cap increase.
5) Year 4 -- Fourth Expansion: New content added. Level cap increased by 5.
6) Repeat this cycle.
Ruar said:UI/Macros. The UI needs to be easy to customize in game without third party intervention. Macros should be allowed for things like attack combinations, healing, and other mundane tasks which require a lot of repitition but not actual skill. Utility abilities and cures would not be able to be macroed however. This would require flagging skills to help prevent automated responses during a fight but still allowing commonly used abilities to not be so tedious. The devs just have to ask if an ability requires some thought in order to be used or if it's just another dot to be added with the rest of the attacks. If skill is needed then flag it so it can't be macroed, otherwise just add it to the rotation becuase clicking six different attack buttons over and over is just boring.
Macros can be a slippery slope if they allow for automated play. At the end of the day, combat shouldn't be boring. If we're incorporating macros or advanced UI to make boring combat less boring, there are more important underlying issues that need to be solved. We're going to have limited hotbar real estate and every ability we use should have purpose.
Ruar said:Housing. Housing should be available to everyone. ArcheAge made a huge mistake in having limited housing space because it drove so many players away. Having a limited area for bigger houses is also a bad idea because it can restrict access to players who want to work for a bigger area. Instead every player should be able to get the same sized plot and then build their house as they see fit. Players who invest more in housing can have a bigger house at the start but casual players can eventually obtain similar results. Have limited time decorations or paint to allow a sense of accomplishment for those who were able to get to certain construction points before others.
Not really much to say here just yet. I don't think housing is planned for launch but this will be an interesting topic to touch on down the road.
Ruar said:But please don't sit here and tell other people they have to eat the food you approve, get to the town the way you approve, and wear the clothes you approve because somehow your nostalgia means more than anyone else's view of what's fun.
If you look at the responses to this thread, you are not in the majority on this. It feels more like you are trying to force your play style on us, than we are trying to force anything on you. This game is being built specifically for that sense of nostalgia for great and meaningful interactions that has been replaced by years of convenience 'updates' just like you are suggesting here.
Your suggestions that we 'dont have to use the conveniences if we dont want to' would just serve to make casual players accelerate faster in game when they use them. The primary playerbase should not have to throttle their gameplay to accomodate those who just want a more vague experience.
I appreciate your views, because the game you suggesting would probably be a fine version of this game, that many gamers would play. But it is this true original mmo experience that has us sitting around years in advanced, just waiting.
We hope to see you in game. We can take down some giants and slay some banshees. But if you're to overly-concerned about smoothing edges that are purposely being built, its possible you're waiting on the wrong game.
Sorry man.
Hey Ruar, I believe that each of those things you have mentioned are seen by VR as being integral to making your time spent in the game meaningful instead of just a blur from one task/piece of content to the next. You will need to invest more time traveling, buying or paying the price for dying and so on and so on. But VR and indeed most of the followers here see those parts of the game as an important challenge that shapes the way we truly enjoy our rewards at the end of the challenge. VR hopes that people will enjoy experiencing the journey with all its speed bumps and not just the reward at the end. There definitely will be people who oppose this as a feature from the get go, that's ok it may not be the game for them but some of those people may even come to realise that they end up loving the little hardships each day once they get the satisfaction of a hard won reward. You mentioned these features are in place just to be tedious, that's definitely not the case, they are in place so we have to try a bit harder to win, which is a good thing in life. Remember this is not just another game they are trying to make, they are trying to create a world that feels big, hits hard and doesn't give out anything for free, we will have to work for it and be forced to band together and telly on each other and not rely on tons of QOL mechanics/shortcuts
Are we sure this wasn't a troll thread?
Saying they want automated griffon routes and teleport hubs and graveyards?
This: " Quests are what really drive a game ".
I feel like we've been duped and we all took the bait, hook, line and sinker...
philo said:Are we sure this wasn't a troll thread?
Saying they want automated griffon routes and teleport hubs and graveyards?
This: " Quests are what really drive a game ".
I feel like we've been duped.
Possibly. But this is the Pantheon forums, not the WoW forums.... It would feel outta place here. lol?
Ruar said:I think one of the biggest controversies we see in discussions about Pantheon is whether or not the game will cater to hardcore players or casual players. The answer to me is cater to both. This just requires looking at game mechanics differently than what we usually see in a game.
So how does a game cater to both hardcore and casual players? I'll start with issues brought up in a recent thread about old school gaming.
the game should not "cater" neither to casuals nor to "hardcores", the game should be a "world" and the players will choose by themselves the ammount of effort they invest in this "world".
no game should cater to casuals, because casuals playing a game only because of "hardcores" and if "hardcores" leave, the "casuals" will not stay.
Ruar said:Selling items. Should Pantheon have automated auctions or require live interaction? A way to include both is to have an automated auction house buying and selling while at the same time adding in a fee for convienence. Players can log onto the auction system and offer their goods at a booth and there is no fee for using that player provided service. A captcha like system requiring the player to read a sentence and then answer a question can be used each hour to avoid being kicked out of the auction interface. Players who want to interact are rewarded while others who prefer to just buy and sell can do so at a cost.
auction house is a staple in MMOs, the only dilemma is whether the AH is global (like in GW2) or local (like in ESO).
Ruar said:Travel. This one can also cater to both types of people. I think most will agree that any fast travel unlocks would require finding that location manually before being allowed to use it. There should be a system of teleport hubs and automated horse/griffin/boat routes. Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other is just tedious design. At the same time the teleport hubs should be on a timer system to allow a market for player provided teleports. Additionally the player teleport locations should be placed closer to the popular assembly locations while the system teleports and transportation hubs should require a small amount of running to hit the popular areas. Example would be system travel to city gates while player travel is to dungeon entrances.
Not exactly,
Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other of the same map, is part of the game. Requiring people run between non adjacent zones is tedious design.
no fast travel unlocks, at least no instant fast travel, general automated horse/griffin/boat routes from main hub to main hub is OK. (i.e. GW2 portals is a NO NO, WOW vanilla boats and zeppelins are cool)
Ruar said:Game time. How much time should be considered a normal playing session? Over the years a consistent answer I've seen for this question has been two hours. Then the question becomes what can be done in that two hours. If players spend 30 minutes LFG or 30 minutes travelling at the front end and another 30 minutes travelling at the back end then they only end up with an hour of actual play time. It's another reason why I think we need system travel to cut down on the tedium of losing play time. Even with two hours being an average play time there still needs to be content for people who have less time to be logged in. I think this is where instanced content is the answer. Having instanced dungeons or challenges that allow players to have fun and make some progress while not providing the best rewards is a good compromise. Someone can do an instanced dungeon with three people and get a decent item that isn't as good as the same item but from the non-instanced dungeon.
preparation is part of the game, getting to the point of interest day before in order to login and be at the spot is part of the game,
also, wizards and summoners will probably be able to summon players to them.
while i like instanced dungeons, this game will not have them. because this game is not "easy world with challenging dungeons" but "the whole world is one big challenging dungeon" the moment you left the gates of the city you are in a challenging group instance.
Ruar said:Corpse runs. Graveyards are an amazing stress reducer and I think they should be a staple of every MMO simply because they make mistakes bearable. That being said I think there is a very good argument for having corpse runs still be an integral part of the gaming experience. A good compromise is to allow a graveyard to be instantly used once every 36 hours or so and then there's a 60 minute timer before it can be used again. So one mistake doesn't ruin a gaming session but the player has to be careful afterwards or they will need to do a corpse run or do something non-combat until the timer expires. Having a 10 minute debuff timer after using the graveyard and having an additional 10% exp penalty as well can provide incentive to do the corpse run while not being so punishing that players are afraid to play the game.
death is not "ruin of a gaming session" but "The game".
and plenty of gaming/social situation can emmerge from dying and getting back your corpse or helping others to get to their corpse.
like having a whole huge guild that called "the corpse squad" and what they do is patroling the world and helping newbies to get back to their corpses.
introduce a graveyard and you completely killed this option.
Ruar said:Rare spawn mobs. This is always a big contention point because people who want to feel elite in a game need some kind of yardstick by which to measure their success. Being the first to complete a goal isn't enough because there needs to be some way to show others who is at a higher level of the game. Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out. Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over. The problem with this idea is that the majority of your players are unable to participate in content which pushes people away. A better way of designing content is to ensure all quests can be spawned by the person doing the quest and have no requirement for a rare spawn mob. Quests are what really drive a game so bottlenecking quests is a good way to kill the interest of your player base. To provide more than just rare gear items the rare spawn mobs need to have unique, and limited, cosmetic items. Mounts, wardrobe, housing, or banner items can all be used to help elite players show they are elite while still allowing casual players the ability to complete quests and occasionally get a cool item.
rare spawn mobs should not be parts of any quest. problem solved.
Ruar said:Flags/keys/gear checks. Using flags or keys is a way to ensure players are forced to participate in different content. The problem with these mechanisms is too often they create a lot of work for guilds to ensure new members are flagged and keyed only to watch those members move on later. The keys do differentiate the hardcore players from the casuals be creating a gear check or time check system. A way to compromise on this is automatically awarding keys for old content once new material is released. Casual players will still have to get keyed for new content if they want to experience it sooner, but guilds will not have to spend endless cycles going through old content in order to raid specific areas.
again, I think that you still in the mindset of "an easy over world and hard instance that is locked by key", this game is "the whole world is one big dungeon"
the gating to the hardest parts of the worlds ( aka raid zones) is the weather. your guild can help a new player with crafted acclimation gear
Ruar said:UI/Macros. The UI needs to be easy to customize in game without third party intervention. Macros should be allowed for things like attack combinations, healing, and other mundane tasks which require a lot of repitition but not actual skill. Utility abilities and cures would not be able to be macroed however. This would require flagging skills to help prevent automated responses during a fight but still allowing commonly used abilities to not be so tedious. The devs just have to ask if an ability requires some thought in order to be used or if it's just another dot to be added with the rest of the attacks. If skill is needed then flag it so it can't be macroed, otherwise just add it to the rotation becuase clicking six different attack buttons over and over is just boring.
UI- yes,
Macros-> no!
you have only 10 buttons on your action bar, and choosing the right skills for the job is part of the game, Macros means that you put several skills in one button, which effectively increasing you action bar from 10 buttons to infinity, thus breaking the game.
Ruar said:Housing. Housing should be available to everyone. ArcheAge made a huge mistake in having limited housing space because it drove so many players away. Having a limited area for bigger houses is also a bad idea because it can restrict access to players who want to work for a bigger area. Instead every player should be able to get the same sized plot and then build their house as they see fit. Players who invest more in housing can have a bigger house at the start but casual players can eventually obtain similar results. Have limited time decorations or paint to allow a sense of accomplishment for those who were able to get to certain construction points before others.
no housing , no housing, no housing! housing breaks social hubs and killing the community, nobody will be in the city everybody will sit on their butts in their houses.
Ruar said:I'll stop there but I think I've shown how a game can provide a fun experience for both casual and hardcore players. Both groups need to feel rewarded and valued and this can be done by cosmetic, time, and cost options. It just takes a bit more work on the dev team to think about compromise solutions and add in some extra code.
the only thing that keep casual players in the game is the population of hardcores. casual players also like to be rewarded for hard effort, the moment you are rewarded for little effort you start to neglect the game and hold cheap all the things it offers. there is no point in doing anything in the game. casualization is what killing the MMO longevity.
there is a silver lining beteen "hardcorness" and "sheer frustration" and as long as this line is not crossed the casuals will continue playing.
all this comes from a casual player.
Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Actually we spent money on the game because we were told that the product the devs would be making/selling would be exactly the kind of thing that doesn't have mass appeal. That's why we are here and not playing current MMO X or Y. We know how successful a game can be with a dedicated but lower population than some of the other mass market MMO character customizing hack and slash games out there. You make a world that people feel invested in, and they stick around longer.
Ruar, what you're proposing is not "including both", it's a blueprint for a "modern, casual MMO". You cannot include all those convenience mechanics you propose and just tell the "hardcore" player (your term) not to use them. That's like saying: "You like to travel? Take a detour!". The satisfaction I seek comes from overcoming obstables put in place by the designers, not by crippling myself. And when I meet a high level character with epic gear, I don't want to suspect that she took an easier route.
Maybe the core difference between us is that you equal combat with "game time", while I find all the preparations of setting up a group and getting it to the dungeon just as interesting as killing mobs, if not more. Granted, sometimes there won't be enough time for it, but then I'll gladly find something to do close to where I currently am. Or the group may make an appointment a couple of days later, giving everybody the time to get to that far away dungeon.
@ -- To VR.
Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
I should add that the argument "there are other games, go play them" doesn't hold much weight. There are not any challengings MMOs on the market, otherwise people would be playing them instead of waiting for Pantheon to come out. There's just different levels of QoL options that people disagree. At the core all of the people who follow Pantheon want to play a game that challenges them and makes them work for character advancement.
Anytime you try to dismiss this concept by saying there are already games on the market for casual players you make it so no one wants to listen to your opinion anymore because you've already closed your mind.
Ruar said:I should add that the argument "there are other games, go play them" doesn't hold much weight. There are not any challengings MMOs on the market, otherwise people would be playing them instead of waiting for Pantheon to come out. There's just different levels of QoL options that people disagree. At the core all of the people who follow Pantheon want to play a game that challenges them and makes them work for character advancement.
Anytime you try to dismiss this concept by saying there are already games on the market for casual players you make it so no one wants to listen to your opinion anymore because you've already closed your mind.
I'm not sure if this was addressed by someone else already or not, but this is just silly... I am a casual player but you're crazy if you think every time I log on I'm going to search for a new area to go 30 minutes away, and then return to where I was for an additional 30 minutes at the end of my session. If Pantheon does "rest bonus" than yes we may have to return to a nearby small town, but most of us hang out where we want to be and should theoretically be able to hang out there for many many gameplay sessions so the only obstacle may be finding a group.
You're also discounting the fact that ports will exist... You want to be able to get somewhere fast? Make a wizard or a druid so you can port places. You don't want to do that? Pay a druid or a wizard to port you? Don't have any cash? I'm sure people will be buffing movement speed relatively frequently and likely for free. Potions will likely exist (crafted) to boost movement speed.
Ruar said:So I thought of an anology for how the hardcore players are acting.
Imagine MMOs are old west towns. EQ kind of kicked it off and as time progressed the towns became more and more modern. Eventually a group of people said "we want to start a new old west town and we're going to make it more like the original instead of the modern versions". A lot of people love this idea because they are nostalgic for old west towns that actually look like an old west town.
More time passes and the town is being discussed, buildings are starting to be constructed, rules are beginning to take shape. A lot of people want some convience with their old west town because while nostalgia is nice technology has advanced and we don't have to do everything like it used to be done.
People want to be able to drive their cars close to the town and walk a short distance. The old guard decries this idea though. Naysayers say "you can't drive closer than 10 miles and then you have to ride a horse those 10 miles to come to town". Why 10 miles though? Because I remember having to ride a horse for 20 minutes and everyone should have to do the same. So why can't I drive my car half a mile away and walk and you go ahead and stop 10 miles out and ride your horse?
People want to wear replica clothes made with modern machinery. Naysers are like, "all clothing worn in the old west town has to be hand spun on a loom and stitched with handmade needles or you aren't welcome in the town". Why can't you just wear the period the clothing and I get to wear what I want? Why does everyone have to wear the clothes you approve of wearing?
People want to use modern stoves and refrigerators to hold the food that is cooked to old time recipes. Again the naysayers pop up. "Only iceboxes, smoking, or salting is allowed to store food regardless of how it ends up prepared". But why can't you just order the authentic food while the rest of us enjoy something that we prefer?
In the end almost every single complaint by the hardcore group is simply that they want everyone else to play their way even if it doesn't really make sense, isn't really fun, and compromising takes nothing away. Don't want to drive a car to the town? Then ride your horse, no one is forcing you to take the car. Don't want to wear replica clothes? Then don't, no one is forcing you to wear something you don't want to wear. Don't want to eat food stored in modern devices? Then don't, no one is going to hold your mouth open and cram food into you.
But please don't sit here and tell other people they have to eat the food you approve, get to the town the way you approve, and wear the clothes you approve because somehow your nostalgia means more than anyone else's view of what's fun.
I don't really understand how this relates to hardcore / casual.
I view hardcore as those who will play 8-10+ hours a day to consume content as fast as possible and be first, or near first, with just about everything. I associate hardcore as a combination of time played and skill. This is going to happen regardless of what systems are in place.
I have to say that the invalidation of others is happening on all sides. I don't think any of us are intentionally trying to invalidate others, but there is obviously going to be debate when two different preferences clash. I mean, I basically get told every day I'm ruining a game over nostalgia :p It doesn't matter what I say to try and rationalize why I thought some things in EQ were good, I'm just being nostalgic apprently. My thoughts and preferences are invalid I guess, because I like riding a horse instead of a car (based on your analogy). If we are going to use real world examples, I could argue that advances in technology in the real-world also have down-sides to them. There are pros and cons to everything.
I myself am fast approaching burn-out with trying to explain my reasons to those who are flat-out unreceptive to hearing them anyway. I mean, this whole post is one big invalidation in and of itself. Brad has already said, multiple times, that players can expect meaningful progression in 2 hour chunks. Is that still not enough? Should they be 30 minute chunks?
Lastly, players are going to take the path of least resistance when it comes to time. Always. No one will choose to run for 15 minutes if they can port in 30 seconds themselves.
One issue with this notion of combining casual with hardcore is that those players who can and will invest more time and effort into the game will receive a far greater benefit from all the casual aspects than would the casual player. You think the Hardcore players will not take every advantage available? Think again.
There are two key things which casual players can do that will make what limited game time they have much more efficient: Make more friends and plan ahead.
Regarding the 2hr playtime session.
If one really knows they have just 2 hours, I would hope they put some thought into this, such as having a pre-set group of friends or regulars that they can expect to hook up with and who would most likely be nearby your last log-out point, and/or have asset available to get you to the group quickly.
Or that you are content with grouping where you are at with a PUG.
Or have alternate forms of entertainment that would keep them busy for the time they have set aside.
I have many times logged into EQ with very little time, sometimes less than 1 hour, to do much of anything, and I was content using that time to , kill a couple mobs solo, move my character for the next play session, do some tradeskills, socialize, help lowbies and newbies in the area I was in, organize bags/bank, etc.
I don't recall ever being without something to do no matter how little time I had, and I never expected the game or other players to cave to my time limitations. I knew I was a casual player who could play 2-3 hours most weeknights and a little more on weekends, and that thoe limit would mean I would progress slower than some players and slower than some of my friends.
