Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Casual or Hardcore- The argument for including both

    • 696 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:06 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Then I misunderstood, probably just because your post was after mine and I talked about the same things. I'd agree with you that player-driven transportation is better in general. At least I think so when it comes to community health. I'd assume you played Horde if you got to Onyxia's lair in two minutes, though, and even then I strongly doubt that. In terms of playing Alliance (like I did) it certainly takes more than five minutes to get from Theramore to Onyxia's Lair. Maybe you're judging your times based on the flight paths avaliable, movement speed and level requirement of mounts in the current version of WoW? Anyway, my two points weren't exactly meant to disparage EQ classic or anything, rather I just felt it was unfair that people (in general on these forums and not you) blame WoW vanilla for these things while they were first introduced in PoP before the WoW release and long before a similar system was introduced in WoW (during TBC in 2007). The second one was that I think travel in real-time (like the boats in EQ or indeed WoW flight paths) are preferable to portal hubs. That's speaking of NPC- and/or World-driven sort of "static" transportation. It does make sense to me that certain classes (druid and wizard in EQ I guess?) would have certain perks for instant teleportation as part of their class identity.

    yea I play horde, and it was with a ground mount with 100% speed. I would only say the destination that took around 5 mins for me was the cavern of times for the hyjal raid. Navigating that tunnel was tedious to get to the hyjal raid, but by then flying mounts where out.

    BTW I do blame SOE for down fall of EQ and such, but I also see the downside of WoW and both contributed to the watering down that killed immersion. A lot of people say challenge is what immersion is, and I say no not really. Challenge would be an ingredient to immersion, but not the only thing. I played Dark Souls and many of my friends did. I can tell you none of us were immersed in the game. The game was tough as nails, but we weren't immersed. WoW had some crazy raids that were tough and fun, but I wasn't immersed in the game. Even in Classic I asked the question and no one in my guild would say they were immersed. I think immersion as many different ingredients and the question becomes how many ingredients can we take away that won't kill the immersion. I ask that question a lot to myself lol.

    • 303 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:10 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Hehe I mean I will try out Classic WoW. It isn't and immersive game even in Classic, but it was more fun that most of the MMOs including current WoW.

    Disregarding those who played Everquest, this is something I'm very curious about. While Everquestwas successful in its own right and a lot of people played it, the sheer number of people who did are dwarfed by the classic WoW population. I'm one of those people who was introduced to MMORPGs with World of Warcraft and I have later (with WoW expansion packs, in fact the first one) been disenfranchised with the genre.

    I think the EQ veterans will be surprised with how much I and other classic wow fans relate much more to EQ (the version we get to try on P99) and indeed the vision that has been proposed for Pantheon. I get it, I'm a big fan of Starcraft: Brood War and I think that Starcraft II is stupid and simplified, a lot of my gamer friends think I'm splitting hairs though. Starcraft II, to me, is still more similar to the OG game than LoL or HotS will ever be. I think in a similar way, those who loved the original wow and later quit will more likely be interested in a game like Pantheon rather than whatever the next WoW expansion may be.

    Talking about this, I think realistically to those who aren't super nerds like us on this forum, classic WoW will directly compete with Pantheon (except for the EQ crowd).

    • 1247 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:11 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    bobwinner said:

    You guys just want WOW2, please no.

    Wait let me try ..

    You guys just want EQ3, please no.

    Just my thought.. I don't think EQ3 is accurate Porygon. Brad, who has a major role in Pantheon, also had a major role in Classic Everquest. He isn't involved with EQ-Live, EQ2, or the EQNext (3) that never came to be. Classic EQ was pretty different from those. I really doubt that the community (many from Classic EQ) wanted 'EQ3' at all. Pantheon is looking more and more like a spiritual successor to Classic Everquest, which was its own game in its own right - kind of like how Camelot Unchained (in development) is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot - as said from the designer of both. Pantheon will be a unique, new game nonetheless. Anyway, it's just my thought on that. A diferent note - not many of the community actually posts on forums, but some good ideas appear time to time and that's good.


    This post was edited by Syrif at September 12, 2018 4:23 PM PDT
    • 303 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:19 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    yea I play horde, and it was with a ground mount with 100% speed. I would only say the destination that took around 5 mins for me was the cavern of times for the hyjal raid. Navigating that tunnel was tedious to get to the hyjal raid, but by then flying mounts where out.

    BTW I do blame SOE for down fall of EQ and such, but I also see the downside of WoW and both contributed to the watering down that killed immersion. A lot of people say challenge is what immersion is, and I say no not really. Challenge would be an ingredient to immersion, but not the only thing. I played Dark Souls and many of my friends did. I can tell you none of us were immersed in the game. The game was tough as nails, but we weren't immersed. WoW had some crazy raids that were tough and fun, but I wasn't immersed in the game. Even in Classic I asked the question and no one in my guild would say they were immersed. I think immersion as many different ingredients and the question becomes how many ingredients can we take away that won't kill the immersion. I ask that question a lot to myself lol.

    But Hyjal and CoT didn't exist in classic. At the point they were added so had additional flight paths.

    I'd also agree with you that challenge =/= immersion. The most immersed I've been is reading a book and that obviously isn't very challenging. I was quite immersed in Dark Souls, though, but that's besides the point. I can be quite immersed (whatever that even means because to me its already three things when I thought about it for 30 seconds) in classic WoW. If we're talking like survival game, then sure, I can definitely see it. Still, though, as I said my point wasn't to disparage EQ classic or anything like that, I just thought it was unfair that WoW was blamed for something that was clearly introduced during PoP (2 years before WoW).

    • 198 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:24 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Watemper said:

    Hehe I mean I will try out Classic WoW. It isn't and immersive game even in Classic, but it was more fun that most of the MMOs including current WoW.

    Disregarding those who played Everquest, this is something I'm very curious about. While Everquestwas successful in its own right and a lot of people played it, the sheer number of people who did are dwarfed by the classic WoW population. I'm one of those people who was introduced to MMORPGs with World of Warcraft and I have later (with WoW expansion packs, in fact the first one) been disenfranchised with the genre.

    I think the EQ veterans will be surprised with how much I and other classic wow fans relate much more to EQ (the version we get to try on P99) and indeed the vision that has been proposed for Pantheon. I get it, I'm a big fan of Starcraft: Brood War and I think that Starcraft II is stupid and simplified, a lot of my gamer friends think I'm splitting hairs though. Starcraft II, to me, is still more similar to the OG game than LoL or HotS will ever be. I think in a similar way, those who loved the original wow and later quit will more likely be interested in a game like Pantheon rather than whatever the next WoW expansion may be.

    Talking about this, I think realistically to those who aren't super nerds like us on this forum, classic WoW will directly compete with Pantheon (except for the EQ crowd).

    I played both and don't have any more interest in rehashing the old WoW content than I do old the EQ content.  I'm sure there are people who want to return to vanilla WoW, but I don't and it's not because I played EQ.  I played them both extensively.  Been there, done that.

    I thought the griffon flights were pretty immersive myself.  I also thought running through Kithicor forest on foot and feeling terrified the entire way was also immersive.  Eventually you get high enough that it becomes trivial and you just want to get from point a to point b without making the same long run for the 50th time.  That's where ports or griffons come in.  But the long distance, coupled with the hard death penalty in EQ, was part of that overall immersion at earlier levels.  You were truly scared to die.  It wasn't just one thing, it was a combination of things that contributed to this immersive feeling of being in a large and dangerous world.  It was things like pulling mobs in Ro and suddenly being smacked by a giant you somehow overlooked that was 20 levels above you.


    This post was edited by Parascol at September 12, 2018 4:28 PM PDT
    • 303 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:34 PM PDT

    Parascol said:

    I played both and don't have any more interest in rehashing the old WoW content than I do old the EQ content.  I'm sure there are people who want to return to vanilla WoW, but I don't and it's not because I played EQ.  I played them both extensively.  Been there, done that.

    I thought the griffon flights were pretty immersive myself.  I also thought running through Kithicor forest on foot and feeling terrified the entire way was also immersive.  Eventually you get high enough that it becomes trivial and you just want to get from point a to point b without making the same long run for the 50th time.  That's where ports or griffons come in.  But the long distance, coupled with the hard death penalty in EQ, was part of that overall immersion at earlier levels.  You were truly scared to die.  It wasn't just one thing, it was a combination of things that contributed to this immersive feeling of being in a large and dangerous world.  It was things like pulling mobs in Ro and suddenly being smacked by a giant you somehow overlooked that was 20 levels above you.

    I largely agree with this. I'd still rather travel showed you gradual albeit fast progress than an instant port, though. Instant travel breaks the fourth wall a bit too much for me.

    • 198 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:43 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Parascol said:

    I played both and don't have any more interest in rehashing the old WoW content than I do old the EQ content.  I'm sure there are people who want to return to vanilla WoW, but I don't and it's not because I played EQ.  I played them both extensively.  Been there, done that.

    I thought the griffon flights were pretty immersive myself.  I also thought running through Kithicor forest on foot and feeling terrified the entire way was also immersive.  Eventually you get high enough that it becomes trivial and you just want to get from point a to point b without making the same long run for the 50th time.  That's where ports or griffons come in.  But the long distance, coupled with the hard death penalty in EQ, was part of that overall immersion at earlier levels.  You were truly scared to die.  It wasn't just one thing, it was a combination of things that contributed to this immersive feeling of being in a large and dangerous world.  It was things like pulling mobs in Ro and suddenly being smacked by a giant you somehow overlooked that was 20 levels above you.

    I largely agree with this. I'd still rather travel showed you gradual albeit fast progress than an instant port, though. Instant travel breaks the fourth wall a bit too much for me.

    I would agree that a griffon ride is much more immersive than a teleport where you just see a loading screen and appear at a different location.  I loved the griffon rides.  I also just like the player interdepdendence of porting in EQ, so not sure how to reconcile those things.  They are different games with their own distinct flavoring.

    Perhaps there is a way to make players feel like they are teleporting through space/time/whatever.


    This post was edited by Parascol at September 12, 2018 4:44 PM PDT
    • 303 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:51 PM PDT

    Parascol said:

    I would agree that a griffon ride is much more immersive than a teleport where you just see a loading screen and appear at a different location.  I loved the griffon rides.  I also just like the player interdepdendence of porting in EQ, so not sure how to reconcile those things.  They are different games with their own distinct flavoring.

    Perhaps there is a way to make players feel like they are teleporting through space/time/whatever.

    I think that they can co-exist. In an EQ manner, you can compare a druid to a boat, yea? The druid (or wizard) is faster but the boat isn't reliant on other players.

    I also think that there are too many flight paths in vanilla WoW (and presumably even more so in the current version), hopefully there'd be a middle ground where not everyone have to afk for a couple hours to get a port class because travel is so slow while also not trivializing travel so much that location and where one is doesn't matter.

    • 198 posts
    September 12, 2018 5:06 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Parascol said:

    I would agree that a griffon ride is much more immersive than a teleport where you just see a loading screen and appear at a different location.  I loved the griffon rides.  I also just like the player interdepdendence of porting in EQ, so not sure how to reconcile those things.  They are different games with their own distinct flavoring.

    Perhaps there is a way to make players feel like they are teleporting through space/time/whatever.

    I think that they can co-exist. In an EQ manner, you can compare a druid to a boat, yea? The druid (or wizard) is faster but the boat isn't reliant on other players.

    I also think that there are too many flight paths in vanilla WoW (and presumably even more so in the current version), hopefully there'd be a middle ground where not everyone have to afk for a couple hours to get a port class because travel is so slow while also not trivializing travel so much that location and where one is doesn't matter.

     

    Perhaps.  I don't know.  Maybe very limited like cross continent flights.  

    I don't know if/how that would work with zoning either.  There could be technology constraints.

    • 89 posts
    September 12, 2018 9:26 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Parascol said:

    I would agree that a griffon ride is much more immersive than a teleport where you just see a loading screen and appear at a different location.  I loved the griffon rides.  I also just like the player interdepdendence of porting in EQ, so not sure how to reconcile those things.  They are different games with their own distinct flavoring.

    Perhaps there is a way to make players feel like they are teleporting through space/time/whatever.

    I think that they can co-exist. In an EQ manner, you can compare a druid to a boat, yea? The druid (or wizard) is faster but the boat isn't reliant on other players.

    I also think that there are too many flight paths in vanilla WoW (and presumably even more so in the current version), hopefully there'd be a middle ground where not everyone have to afk for a couple hours to get a port class because travel is so slow while also not trivializing travel so much that location and where one is doesn't matter.

     

    Most zones only had one griffon rider (I think horde had 2 in the barrens?) and the vast majority were on the edge of the zone leaving plenty of running to get to important areas.  In fact there were several cases where you were better off riding your mount through multiple zones than using the flight paths (alliance going to ZG were best served to just ride south from Stormwind for example).  Pretty much everything important (including all high level dungeons and raids) was several minutes travel from the nearest flight path even on the best mounts...

    • 303 posts
    September 13, 2018 12:02 AM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    Most zones only had one griffon rider (I think horde had 2 in the barrens?) and the vast majority were on the edge of the zone leaving plenty of running to get to important areas.  In fact there were several cases where you were better off riding your mount through multiple zones than using the flight paths (alliance going to ZG were best served to just ride south from Stormwind for example).  Pretty much everything important (including all high level dungeons and raids) was several minutes travel from the nearest flight path even on the best mounts...

    Yes but they ended up adding flight paths that kind of undermined other parts of the game. I think the best examle is the flight path in Thorium Point. For alliance there was a quest line to receive the key to Searing Gorge so you could circumvent the long tri  through the Badlands and go there directly from Loch Modan. That key and the entire quest chain kind of became meaningless as they added the flight path.

    Also Alliance wouldn't ride from Stormwind, they'd ride from Darkshire which is significantly closer to ZG than Stormwind is.

    But indeed you're right, there is still a lot of overland travel required.


    This post was edited by Spluffen at September 13, 2018 12:04 AM PDT
    • 1120 posts
    September 13, 2018 12:21 AM PDT

    Syrif said:

    Porygon said:

    bobwinner said:

    You guys just want WOW2, please no.

    Wait let me try ..

    You guys just want EQ3, please no.

    Just my thought.. I don't think EQ3 is accurate Porygon. Brad, who has a major role in Pantheon, also had a major role in Classic Everquest. He isn't involved with EQ-Live, EQ2, or the EQNext (3) that never came to be. Classic EQ was pretty different from those. I really doubt that the community (many from Classic EQ) wanted 'EQ3' at all. Pantheon is looking more and more like a spiritual successor to Classic Everquest, which was its own game in its own right - kind of like how Camelot Unchained (in development) is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot - as said from the designer of both. Pantheon will be a unique, new game nonetheless. Anyway, it's just my thought on that. A diferent note - not many of the community actually posts on forums, but some good ideas appear time to time and that's good.

    .....

    • 696 posts
    September 13, 2018 8:33 AM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Watemper said:

    Hehe I mean I will try out Classic WoW. It isn't and immersive game even in Classic, but it was more fun that most of the MMOs including current WoW.

    Disregarding those who played Everquest, this is something I'm very curious about. While Everquestwas successful in its own right and a lot of people played it, the sheer number of people who did are dwarfed by the classic WoW population. I'm one of those people who was introduced to MMORPGs with World of Warcraft and I have later (with WoW expansion packs, in fact the first one) been disenfranchised with the genre.

    I think the EQ veterans will be surprised with how much I and other classic wow fans relate much more to EQ (the version we get to try on P99) and indeed the vision that has been proposed for Pantheon. I get it, I'm a big fan of Starcraft: Brood War and I think that Starcraft II is stupid and simplified, a lot of my gamer friends think I'm splitting hairs though. Starcraft II, to me, is still more similar to the OG game than LoL or HotS will ever be. I think in a similar way, those who loved the original wow and later quit will more likely be interested in a game like Pantheon rather than whatever the next WoW expansion may be.

    Talking about this, I think realistically to those who aren't super nerds like us on this forum, classic WoW will directly compete with Pantheon (except for the EQ crowd).

     

    Well I wouldn't be surprised. I mean a good portion of the EQ team, before SOE, were part of the WoW creation. Atleast that is what I heard. They had some very similiar features in WoW that EQ also had. They made it very soloable, but even in classic WoW if you were a melee you could die to pulling two mobs. Not to mention in Classic WoW a lot of EQ players played warcraft so many of us pre ordered WoW. So you had a lot of EQ veterans who actually do MC BWL ZG and AQ in era. But many went back to EQ once TBC came out, atleast the ones I knew.

    • 363 posts
    September 13, 2018 10:50 AM PDT

    Sorry Ruar, but all of your suggestios would flip this game's design around 100%. The whole point of this game is to create something that isn't already available in some form. All of your suggestions would turn it into another modern day run-of-the mill MMO. Yes, VR is catering to a smaller demographic, yet they're far more passionate.

    • 696 posts
    September 13, 2018 12:13 PM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    Watemper said:

    yea I play horde, and it was with a ground mount with 100% speed. I would only say the destination that took around 5 mins for me was the cavern of times for the hyjal raid. Navigating that tunnel was tedious to get to the hyjal raid, but by then flying mounts where out.

    BTW I do blame SOE for down fall of EQ and such, but I also see the downside of WoW and both contributed to the watering down that killed immersion. A lot of people say challenge is what immersion is, and I say no not really. Challenge would be an ingredient to immersion, but not the only thing. I played Dark Souls and many of my friends did. I can tell you none of us were immersed in the game. The game was tough as nails, but we weren't immersed. WoW had some crazy raids that were tough and fun, but I wasn't immersed in the game. Even in Classic I asked the question and no one in my guild would say they were immersed. I think immersion as many different ingredients and the question becomes how many ingredients can we take away that won't kill the immersion. I ask that question a lot to myself lol.

    But Hyjal and CoT didn't exist in classic. At the point they were added so had additional flight paths.

    I'd also agree with you that challenge =/= immersion. The most immersed I've been is reading a book and that obviously isn't very challenging. I was quite immersed in Dark Souls, though, but that's besides the point. I can be quite immersed (whatever that even means because to me its already three things when I thought about it for 30 seconds) in classic WoW. If we're talking like survival game, then sure, I can definitely see it. Still, though, as I said my point wasn't to disparage EQ classic or anything like that, I just thought it was unfair that WoW was blamed for something that was clearly introduced during PoP (2 years before WoW).

    Guess we have two different ideas of what immersion is lol. I guess my immersion is more of an attachment and feeling you are apart of the world. Dark Souls, or WoW, never did that for me. 

    I mentioned Hyjal not because of classic but because that was the only time I remember complaining about the run because WoW held my hand for so long lol.

    • 2138 posts
    September 13, 2018 1:59 PM PDT

    Parascol said:

    Spluffen said:

    Watemper said:

    Hehe I mean I will try out Classic WoW. It isn't and immersive game even in Classic, but it was more fun that most of the MMOs including current WoW.

    Disregarding those who played Everquest, this is something I'm very curious about. While Everquestwas successful in its own right and a lot of people played it, the sheer number of people who did are dwarfed by the classic WoW population. I'm one of those people who was introduced to MMORPGs with World of Warcraft and I have later (with WoW expansion packs, in fact the first one) been disenfranchised with the genre.

    I think the EQ veterans will be surprised with how much I and other classic wow fans relate much more to EQ (the version we get to try on P99) and indeed the vision that has been proposed for Pantheon. I get it, I'm a big fan of Starcraft: Brood War and I think that Starcraft II is stupid and simplified, a lot of my gamer friends think I'm splitting hairs though. Starcraft II, to me, is still more similar to the OG game than LoL or HotS will ever be. I think in a similar way, those who loved the original wow and later quit will more likely be interested in a game like Pantheon rather than whatever the next WoW expansion may be.

    Talking about this, I think realistically to those who aren't super nerds like us on this forum, classic WoW will directly compete with Pantheon (except for the EQ crowd).

    I played both and don't have any more interest in rehashing the old WoW content than I do old the EQ content.  I'm sure there are people who want to return to vanilla WoW, but I don't and it's not because I played EQ.  I played them both extensively.  Been there, done that.

    I thought the griffon flights were pretty immersive myself.  I also thought running through Kithicor forest on foot and feeling terrified the entire way was also immersive Eventually you get high enough that it becomes trivial and you just want to get from point a to point b without making the same long run for the 50th time.  That's where ports or griffons come in.  But the long distance, coupled with the hard death penalty in EQ, was part of that overall immersion at earlier levels.  You were truly scared to die.  It wasn't just one thing, it was a combination of things that contributed to this immersive feeling of being in a large and dangerous world.  It was things like pulling mobs in Ro and suddenly being smacked by a giant you somehow overlooked that was 20 levels above you.

     

    This is a key point I think, and something to keep in mind regarding gameplay and the players movement through the game world.

    At the early stage, its great! 2 zones away is an adventure and you stay there for a while. But in "middle age" you have places to go and things to do, maybe guilded and goals to reach.

    Hopefuly what Pantheon can try to address with horizontal leveling. The newbie zones can still kill you,  Kithicor would still be thretening 20 levels higher. This may also mean the world is smaller geographically speaking- but the world areas are richer in content(monsters) with small pockets of leveled diversity as well as environmental diversity(reason to stop and smell the roses). 

    But at the same time, how do you infuse the feeling of accomplishing levels while still having the "middle-aged" player challenged and at the same time prevent them from being discouraged by dieing in newbie zones?

    Personally, at all levels I liked seeing a crowded dungeon with same leveled players or higher levels run past or through because it made it safer if I wiped, knowing someone would see my corpse and if the group disbanded, I might be able to find somehting there.

    • 1120 posts
    September 13, 2018 2:00 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Guess we have two different ideas of what immersion is lol. I guess my immersion is more of an attachment and feeling you are apart of the world. Dark Souls, or WoW, never did that for me. 

    I mentioned Hyjal not because of classic but because that was the only time I remember complaining about the run because WoW held my hand for so long lol.

    I guess it just depends on your level on patience.  I hated running to MC or BRD   it was terrible.  I also hated the flight from UC to Bootybay.   It's like 17 mins long.

    • 752 posts
    September 13, 2018 2:15 PM PDT

    I am a hardcore casual.... when i log on i go hard until i am forced to log offline. If i did not have responsibilities i would keep going for days on end. I am generally level focused or casual raid focused. I like to help others achieve thier goals. 

    The main thing that bugged me in previous games was the fact that when i logged online i wanted to find a group or create a group. If i could do neither of those and there were no quests that interested me i would log offline and play a console game. Unless i was waiting for a raid then i would stay logged on, but still play console. 

    My time is more limited than in the past. I have to plan ahead a lot more. If i want an item from somewhere i need to be camped in that zone ready to LFG when i log online. If i don't have a gear goal and its just exp i will just stay in one of the more popular zones to find groups. 

    If i am literally staring at a wall for an extended time i will go play console. My time is more precious now and i am not entertained by walls. And i dislike most global channels these days so i usually have most chat turned off. 

    • 303 posts
    September 13, 2018 2:26 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Guess we have two different ideas of what immersion is lol. I guess my immersion is more of an attachment and feeling you are apart of the world. Dark Souls, or WoW, never did that for me. 

    I mentioned Hyjal not because of classic but because that was the only time I remember complaining about the run because WoW held my hand for so long lol.

    No. Immersion is immersion. I don't know what has you immersed, though. Anyway, Dark Souls doesn't hold your hand at all to the point that EQ does, either. EQ has only one thing on both of those games (both of which I consider far superior to classic EQ) and that is that it has a grander vision. An ambitious game ahead of its time, severly crippled by the tech of the time. Both Dark Souls and classic WoW are systematically superior and in the case of Dark Souls even sublime. The latter is so good that in terms of RPGs I'd only put it in the league of Wizardry, Dragon Quest and Might and Magic. Of course completely subjective, just like whatever has one immersed.

    As to not seem like a negative nancy, my point is that handholding or not doesn't automatically translate into how immersive a game is. Realism might? Maybe? I find ARMA quite immersive. Of course it immerses me into something I'd rather not be immersed in. Immersion in games is a buzzword at best and tbh way too subjective to ever be constructive in a discussion.

    • 198 posts
    September 13, 2018 2:32 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    This is a key point I think, and something to keep in mind regarding gameplay and the players movement through the game world.

    At the early stage, its great! 2 zones away is an adventure and you stay there for a while. But in "middle age" you have places to go and things to do, maybe guilded and goals to reach.

    Hopefuly what Pantheon can try to address with horizontal leveling. The newbie zones can still kill you,  Kithicor would still be thretening 20 levels higher. This may also mean the world is smaller geographically speaking- but the world areas are richer in content(monsters) with small pockets of leveled diversity as well as environmental diversity(reason to stop and smell the roses). 

    But at the same time, how do you infuse the feeling of accomplishing levels while still having the "middle-aged" player challenged and at the same time prevent them from being discouraged by dieing in newbie zones?

    Personally, at all levels I liked seeing a crowded dungeon with same leveled players or higher levels run past or through because it made it safer if I wiped, knowing someone would see my corpse and if the group disbanded, I might be able to find somehting there.

    I don't remember the level range of Kithicor exactly, but I want to say mobs were 30's-40's?  But the distance traveled didn't become trivialized because of lack of content for various levels, but because I was eventually established enough to get ports, either through friends directly, or via platinum payments to other players.  That's not to say I didn't eventually outlevel the zone to the point I could run through it without much risk, but by then I wouldn't have done that anyway, because of access to ports.  At level 12, or somewhere thereabouts, I had no way to get to high hold pass other than running through Kithicor to get there.  With that said, we should be honest with ourselves:  Despite Kithicor being a very dangerous zone to a lower player trying to get to high hold pass, everyone just ran along the wall to minimize the danger anyway.  That didn't mean a mob couldn't path to the edges of the zone, but you could basically get through unscathed by keeping to the walls and just watching for mobs pathing too close.  It was still scary, but no where near as scary as trying to move through the center of the zone.  The zone walls were also our early maps.  If you followed the wall, you knew eventully you'd hit a zone line.

    Also at earlier levels, the trek to the other side of the world was quite an endeavor.  It took quite a while to make it to the other side on foot.  And I loved that.  But that only stays fun for so long and porting really helped alleviate that at later levels.

    Anyway, as far as big level ranges in various areas of a zone, I agree that it will be a good thing to help keep the zones active and flourishing.  I hope to see that too :)  I almost see the earlier travel as a sort of right of passage.  You have to get through on foot several times, but a little deeper into leveling start easing up on that with access to ports.  I thought EQ was a good design in that regard.  WoW too for that matter, although I don't remember running through high level zones that might kill me in an instant as much as I do EQ.  Griffon flights were also available at much lower levels in WoW, iirc.


    This post was edited by Parascol at September 13, 2018 2:47 PM PDT
    • 201 posts
    September 13, 2018 4:51 PM PDT

    Ruar said:

    I think one of the biggest controversies we see in discussions about Pantheon is whether or not the game will cater to hardcore players or casual players.  The answer to me is cater to both.  This just requires looking at game mechanics differently than what we usually see in a game.

    So how does a game cater to both hardcore and casual players?  I'll start with issues brought up in a recent thread about old school gaming.

     

    Selling items.  Should Pantheon have  automated auctions or require live interaction?  A way to include both is to have an automated auction house buying and selling while at the same time adding in a fee for convienence.  Players can log onto the auction system and offer their goods at a booth and there is no fee for using that player provided service.  A captcha like system requiring the player to read a sentence and then answer a question can be used each hour to avoid being kicked out of the auction interface.  Players who want to interact are rewarded while others who prefer to just buy and sell can do so at a cost.

     

    Travel.  This one can also cater to both types of people.  I think most will agree that any fast travel unlocks would require finding that location manually before being allowed to use it.  There should be a system of teleport hubs and automated horse/griffin/boat routes.  Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other is just tedious design.  At the same time the teleport hubs should be on a timer system to allow a market for player provided teleports.  Additionally the player teleport locations should be placed closer to the popular assembly locations while the system teleports and transportation hubs should require a small amount of running to hit the popular areas.  Example would be system travel to city gates while player travel is to dungeon entrances.

     

    Game time.  How much time should be considered a normal playing session?  Over the years a consistent answer I've seen for this question has been two hours.  Then the question becomes what can be done in that two hours.  If players spend 30 minutes LFG or 30 minutes travelling at the front end and another 30 minutes travelling at the back end then they only end up with an hour of actual play time.  It's another reason why I think we need system travel to cut down on the tedium of losing play time.  Even with two hours being an average play time there still needs to be content for people who have less time to be logged in.  I think this is where instanced content is the answer.  Having instanced dungeons or challenges that allow players to have fun and make some progress while not providing the best rewards is a good compromise.  Someone can do an instanced dungeon with three people and get a decent item that isn't as good as the same item but from the non-instanced dungeon. 

     

    Corpse runs.  Graveyards are an amazing stress reducer and I think they should be a staple of every MMO simply because they make mistakes bearable.  That being said I think there is a very good argument for having corpse runs still be an integral part of the gaming experience.  A good compromise is to allow a graveyard to be instantly used once every 36 hours or so and then there's a 60 minute timer before it can be used again.  So one mistake doesn't ruin a gaming session but the player has to be careful afterwards or they will need to do a corpse run or do something non-combat until the timer expires.  Having a 10 minute debuff timer after using the graveyard and having an additional 10% exp penalty as well can provide incentive to do the corpse run while not being so punishing that players are afraid to play the game.

     

    Rare spawn mobs.  This is always a big contention point because people who want to feel elite in a game need some kind of yardstick by which to measure their success.  Being the first to complete a goal isn't enough because there needs to be some way to show others who is at a higher level of the game.  Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out.  Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over.  The problem with this idea is that the majority of your players are unable to participate in content which pushes people away.  A better way of designing content is to ensure all quests can be spawned by the person doing the quest and have no requirement for a rare spawn mob.  Quests are what really drive a game so bottlenecking quests is a good way to kill the interest of your player base.  To provide more than just rare gear items the rare spawn mobs need to have unique, and limited, cosmetic items.  Mounts, wardrobe, housing, or banner items can all be used to help elite players show they are elite while still allowing casual players the ability to complete quests and occasionally get a cool item.

     

    Flags/keys/gear checks.  Using flags or keys is a way to ensure players are forced to participate in different content.  The problem with these mechanisms is too often they create a lot of work for guilds to ensure new members are flagged and keyed only to watch those members move on later.  The keys do differentiate the hardcore players from the casuals be creating a gear check or time check system.  A way to compromise on this is automatically awarding keys for old content once new material is released.  Casual players will still have to get keyed for new content if they want to experience it sooner, but guilds will not have to spend endless cycles going through old content in order to raid specific areas.

     

    UI/Macros.  The UI needs to be easy to customize in game without third party intervention.  Macros should be allowed for things like attack combinations, healing, and other mundane tasks which require a lot of repitition but not actual skill. Utility abilities and cures would not be able to be macroed however.  This would require flagging skills to help prevent automated responses during a fight but still allowing commonly used abilities to not be so tedious.  The devs just have to ask if an ability requires some thought in order to be used or if it's just another dot to be added with the rest of the attacks.  If skill is needed then flag it so it can't be macroed, otherwise just add it to the rotation becuase clicking six different attack buttons over and over is just boring.

     

    Housing.  Housing should be available to everyone.  ArcheAge made a huge mistake in having limited housing space because it drove so many players away.  Having a limited area for bigger houses is also a bad idea because it can restrict access to players who want to work for a bigger area.  Instead every player should be able to get the same sized plot and then build their house as they see fit.  Players who invest more in housing can have a bigger house at the start but casual players can eventually obtain similar results.  Have limited time decorations or paint to allow a sense of accomplishment for those who were able to get to certain construction points before others.

     

    I'll stop there but I think I've shown how a game can provide a fun experience for both casual and hardcore players.  Both groups need to feel rewarded and valued and this can be done by cosmetic, time, and cost options.  It just takes a bit more work on the dev team to think about compromise solutions and add in some extra code. 

     

     

     

    I dislike almost everything in this post.  As others have said, this is not the game that is being made here (or so we have been told and all believe).  The idea here is to make a game for those of us who want something more akin to EQ in many ways.  I believe if they stick to and faithfully execute that idea, they can have a stable and profitable, albeit smaller player base, but one that stays around and pays every month.  Honestly I really do not think it would be that hard.  I mean, even if you kept 10k players paying, that would be 150-200k a month and that should be a profitable place I would think. Making a game that half does everything trying to straddle the line and please everyone will certainly flop.  To paraphrase the immortal Mr Miyagi...walk left side road, safe, walk right side road, safe, walk middle of road, sooner or later get squished, just like grape.  You old school game do yes, you old school game do no, ok...you old school game do, guess so...squished like grape.

    • 303 posts
    September 13, 2018 5:18 PM PDT

    antonius said:

    To paraphrase the immortal Mr Miyagi...walk left side road, safe, walk right side road, safe, walk middle of road, sooner or later get squished, just like grape.  You old school game do yes, you old school game do no, ok...you old school game do, guess so...squished like grape.

    Squished, just like a Wildstar.

    • 287 posts
    September 13, 2018 6:41 PM PDT

      "Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out.  Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over.

     

    No they don't. They return to the older content to farm the named mobs from the previous expansions...further denying the majority of the player base of the content.  The same people that want open world FFA here are the same ones that denied everyone else in EQ1 and other games.  They love open world.  The the vast majority of players keep getting the content denied.  This is terrible game design in 2018.  Lock out timers are a must to keep the greedy top guilds from denying all the best content to the majority of player base.  Vanguard understood this.....hopefully pantheon does as well.  


    This post was edited by bryanleo9 at September 13, 2018 6:44 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 13, 2018 7:27 PM PDT

    bryanleo9 said:

    The same people that want open world FFA here are the same ones that denied everyone else in EQ1 and other games.  They love open world.  The the vast majority of players keep getting the content denied.  This is terrible game design in 2018.  Lock out timers are a must to keep the greedy top guilds from denying all the best content to the majority of player base.  Vanguard understood this.....hopefully pantheon does as well.  

    The term "denial" didn't even exist in some of the other oldschool MMO's.  Competition was embraced as something that was inherent in FFXI and as such competing with other players for resources was considered a fun/healthy aspect of the game.  The major raid bosses would spawn once per day and then every 3-4 days they would spawn as a hyper version.  There was plenty enough content to go around and keep the playerbase interested.  Content is king.  I'm not objected to the lockout mechanic from Vanguard but I don't see how that can be a thing in this game since the choice has been made to go with MDD over FTE.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 13, 2018 7:28 PM PDT
    • 303 posts
    September 13, 2018 7:33 PM PDT

    bryanleo9 said:

    No they don't. They return to the older content to farm the named mobs from the previous expansions...further denying the majority of the player base of the content.  The same people that want open world FFA here are the same ones that denied everyone else in EQ1 and other games.  They love open world.  The the vast majority of players keep getting the content denied.  This is terrible game design in 2018.  Lock out timers are a must to keep the greedy top guilds from denying all the best content to the majority of player base.  Vanguard understood this.....hopefully pantheon does as well.  

    I certainly didn't deny anyone anything in EQ1 (I didn't play it). Still, I support open world FFA.

    In the words of Mike Matei: "If you're bad, you should lose".

    Also, please go ahead and make excuses that you have no time to play or whatever, I don't really care. Dedication, effort, skill, time investment are all part of getting good. If one can't 'git gud', one shouldn't expect to win. Maybe it sounds harsh but at least that's my view of video games.