Porygon said:I'm honestly surprised at the number of people that would just take the camp. I agree, if you die you lose it. But I am kinda shocked!
Lol I'm actually surprised at the opposite. Don't get me wrong about my first post, I'm not a heartless dog eat dog player. And wouldn't likely take the camp. But the "if your not there you lost it, if you wipe you lost it" NEEDS to be the hard line in the sand or you will have everybody and there brothers embellishing on the rule of who owns the camp just as your post ask.
How long?
Bob says 5 min
Ken says 10 min
And then you have Gary spamming in world chat that "Player-X just stole my camp, we wiped and it only took us 10.5 min to get back and he won't give it back!!! Everybody black list him"
I remember these conversations oh so many times in early EQ.. if we're going to regulate it ourselves, and if we're going to have camps, there NEEDS to be a minimum expected requirement. And for camps that would be
"If your not there, then you don't control the camp"
disposalist said:I would say that's one of those occasions where you can choose to shine as a friend or get a rep for being... something else.
Completely agree.
It actually wasn't that uncommon, back in the day, for other groups to rez you up and help you get the camp back.
Groups would often help eachother out in different ways. Then again most people probably knew eachother or of eachother too. So it wouldn't be too cool to block your friends like that.
I'm hoping we can re-kindle that sort of cooperation again here.
-Az
To what I understand about certain classes so far is that they might be using some sort of banners for buffs during battle.
How about an encounter banner? This would safeguard the area from any new groups engaging the mobs within that area (could be defined in a set range). It could be explained by calling it so called hate/angre or being upset of the mob with that certain group, like people sometimes are and are not in the 'mood' to interact with someone else, there are just too pissed off and need some cooldown time before speaking to others. (It looks a bit like a locked encounter, where no group can aid or steal the mob from you during battle.) You can only have ONE encounter banner up in the group at a time and the banner dissappears when the group moves away from it beyond a certain distance. When wiped, the banner itself has a countdown 'life expetancy' and will be gone after set amount of time. Somewhat in the lines of a guildbanner or rallying banner.
It could be an automatically placed banner if the groupsettings are set that way. This would mean the groupleader can choose to have such technique active in his groupprogression or not.
When it's not, no banner will be set and they can progress quicker/faster without hugging the entire zone if the killing goes smoothly. And logically for a group it would only be important enough for difficult/challenging encounter to have such a banner up anyway.
In the case of the group clearing the zone and having set the encounter banner on active the entire time, the banner would dissappear behind them anyway since they would have moved on from it to the next mob. So that could solve the issue of hugging the zone for themselves.
It could be that the groupleader before engaging the mob has some kind of automatic ability to shout out in the area or to "mark the spot" and doing so places the banner. This could be the tank itself or the healer at the back. Again the banner would be gone if the group moves too far away from it and no two banner can be placed at the same time.
Sidenote: people might still be able to pass beyond that group, but would not be able to interact with the mob in that area for example.
It's just a thought, seeing that calling campspots seems a big issue here, but not many solutions are offered atm.
Zorkon said:"If your not there, then you don't control the camp"
I'm 100% with Zorkon here. 0 minutes is the answer.
However this should be much less of an issue than in EQ with dynamic spawn points. Multiple camps could be set up for the same named mob just in different areas of the dungeon. If the best spot is taken you move to 2nd best or 3rd best and keep an eye on the groups in more optimal locations to wipe or disband.
Zorkon said:Porygon said:I'm honestly surprised at the number of people that would just take the camp. I agree, if you die you lose it. But I am kinda shocked!
Lol I'm actually surprised at the opposite. Don't get me wrong about my first post, I'm not a heartless dog eat dog player. And wouldn't likely take the camp. But the "if your not there you lost it, if you wipe you lost it" NEEDS to be the hard line in the sand or you will have everybody and there brothers embellishing on the rule of who owns the camp just as your post ask.
How long?
Bob says 5 min
Ken says 10 min
And then you have Gary spamming in world chat that "Player-X just stole my camp, we wiped and it only took us 10.5 min to get back and he won't give it back!!! Everybody black list him"
I remember these conversations oh so many times in early EQ.. if we're going to regulate it ourselves, and if we're going to have camps, there NEEDS to be a minimum expected requirement. And for camps that would be
"If your not there, then you don't control the camp"
This is exactly why there needs to be a realistic PNP so if Gary does spam-whine it can be shut down and GMs don't get bothered. "Go read the PNP Gary!"
I would take it. In fact, not only camps but I consider any mob that isn't currently in combat to be up for grabs. To "claim" it like calling shotgun or licking all the candies seems extremely petty and childish to me. If I kill a mob and somebody tells me, "hey, I wanted to kill that mob" then I will ask them to wait for respawn and try again.
1) I probably give about 10 minutes and i might kill minor mobs or not depending on mood (boredome/helpfulness).
I think someone who died or went somewhere nearby to help his friend, still has a right to the work they put into the camp. Up until the player's work on the camp is undone by respawns. So, usually 10 minutes.
2). Definately first come first serve, that's why it pays to go and look at the camp yourself if you really want it.
It's also important to note that there is no way they own the camp if they aren't putting work into it and have no way to do so. A lvl 1 standing outside of the camp doesn't change a thing if the camp is lvl 20.
Similarly, Someone who is way overleveled owning a camp is suspect, though the specifics there are harder to work out.
I would rather that camp checks and discussion come up during Beta when it is proven that Pantheon game mechanics will require this Camp Check concept in the first place.
I said before; until the other thread on camping on these forums, I haved never heard of or been exposed in any way to the words "Camp check". I have played mmo's since 2001 and have been exposed to the concept though and in the early games everything was, for the most part, civil, between players and groups desiring to farm mob spawn points. I am saying that at this point I don't even acknowledge that there is a (game mechanics forced) need as of yet for some form of officially claiming of a spawn point. Hence, until proven otherwise, "Camp Check" may well be an obsolete term for an obsolete game.
Dashed said:I would rather that camp checks and discussion come up during Beta when it is proven that Pantheon game mechanics will require this Camp Check concept in the first place.
They have mentioned z few times in the streams that there will be both camping and crawling involved in pantheon. So I defintely think we will see these "social mechanics" in play.
azaya said:disposalist said:I would say that's one of those occasions where you can choose to shine as a friend or get a rep for being... something else.
Completely agree.
It actually wasn't that uncommon, back in the day, for other groups to rez you up and help you get the camp back.
Groups would often help eachother out in different ways. Then again most people probably knew eachother or of eachother too. So it wouldn't be too cool to block your friends like that.
I'm hoping we can re-kindle that sort of cooperation again here.
-Az
This right here. You never know when your group is going to be the one that needs help getting back to their corpses/camp.
I think the important thing in these instances is communication. Assuming that someone isn't coming back (or that they are) without sending a tell to confirm will put you on the wrong side of that assumption more often than not.
That being said, if a group clears out of the zone completely, without leaving corpses behind that they obviously need to CR... pretty sure that camp's open at that point :) This is, of course, assuming that any evac type spells work as they did in EQ where they put you at the entry point of the zone.
Dashed said:I don't even acknowledge that there is a (game mechanics forced) need as of yet for some form of officially claiming of a spawn point.
There never was a game mechanics forced need for camp checks, even in EQ.
It was always a courtesy thing. The main reason for camp checks was not for someone to claim a camp, but for someone who is just entering a zone to see if a certain named is already being killed so they don't waste time by clearing to the spawn point only to find someone else there. It wasn't a forced need.
In a "Brad game" where rep matters it is these type of little courtesys that players gIve each other. It seems like such a small thing but it encourages player communication which in turn strengthens the community when you get to know names or briefly talked to someone because of a CC...instead of just seeing their name on a zone list or running by them as they were fighting.
Gladare said:This thread has been mostly disappointing. Forums are generally filled with a vocal minority, but I see a lot of what made MMO's lose their magic over the years.
To what are you referring? I see most people taking a very pragmatic, sensible approach to this particular scenario.
disposalist said:Gladare said:This thread has been mostly disappointing. Forums are generally filled with a vocal minority, but I see a lot of what made MMO's lose their magic over the years.
To what are you referring? I see most people taking a very pragmatic, sensible approach to this particular scenario.
This is why I was surprised with the amount of people that actually looked at it like I do. Most of the people I've encountered in EQ get very upset if they return from a 20 min cr to find their camp taken. It was just interesting to see the forums echo the opposite.
Porygon said:disposalist said:Gladare said:This thread has been mostly disappointing. Forums are generally filled with a vocal minority, but I see a lot of what made MMO's lose their magic over the years.
To what are you referring? I see most people taking a very pragmatic, sensible approach to this particular scenario.
This is why I was surprised with the amount of people that actually looked at it like I do. Most of the people I've encountered in EQ get very upset if they return from a 20 min cr to find their camp taken. It was just interesting to see the forums echo the opposite.
Beeing upset doesn't mean you're right, even at your own rules. How many times are our first reaction anger and such, while we are withouth a doubt in fault ?
CRing is a long process in which times passes fast because you are busy runing/draggin bodies/getting rezzed and back into the fray. The same 20 min for a group waiting for a spot to open is a chore, why should they stay out of camps ?
MauvaisOeil said:Porygon said:This is why I was surprised with the amount of people that actually looked at it like I do. Most of the people I've encountered in EQ get very upset if they return from a 20 min cr to find their camp taken. It was just interesting to see the forums echo the opposite.
Beeing upset doesn't mean you're right, even at your own rules. How many times are our first reaction anger and such, while we are withouth a doubt in fault ?
CRing is a long process in which times passes fast because you are busy runing/draggin bodies/getting rezzed and back into the fray. The same 20 min for a group waiting for a spot to open is a chore, why should they stay out of camps ?
It seems like Porg was just making an observation about how things used to be compared to the responses we have seen here. I don't think he was making a statement about whether it is right or wrong.
I think this is kind of a microcosm of the situation. Early on, prior to when mmos became mainstream with WoW and beyond, I feel like players would give each other the benefit of the doubt more often. Common courtesy so to speak. At this point people are quick to debate a situation and defend their position.
That general shift in the thought process is why we need more well defined rules and, I think, why many people here are skeptical about the old method of "community policing".
edit: maybe this is obvious?
I probably came off more negatively than I intended. I'm not saying anyone here is wrong or right. However, when you treat the world like a bunch of 1's and 0's that need hard lines to follow, you lose immersion. People have reached that point, and the game has not been released yet.
The idea is that Terminus is your reality. The people you see are real, and they feel. I find games more enjoyable when you don't lose that connection and social aspect.
Gladare said:I probably came off more negatively than I intended. I'm not saying anyone here is wrong or right. However, when you treat the world like a bunch of 1's and 0's that need hard lines to follow, you lose immersion. People have reached that point, and the game has not been released yet.
The idea is that Terminus is your reality. The people you see are real, and they feel. I find games more enjoyable when you don't lose that connection and social aspect.
Not everyone even remotely feels this way. To me. MMOs are a video game. Not an alternate reality. I dont care about immersion. I typically play with sound off. I never hear sound effects or music unless it's absolutely needed. Immersion is not important to me. What's important is a quality game with challenging content.
I'm not saying I'm not social. I absolutely am, and I'll meet tons of friends in the game. But the game is exactly 1s and 0s to me. What do I need to do to make my character better. That's what I look at.
@philo
I wasn't making a specific statement about porygon, but a general behaviour of human beeing. Outside of the box, we as human, tend to have a very optimistic opinion, however when we are directly concerned, the behaviour turns to be more sanguine or intuition driven.
Just like most people would say "If I was here I would have punched him..." while in truth, they would have done nothing.
What I mean is simply this topic is collecting opinions but not facts, and people will probably act differently in game than what they said here.
Ithaca said:It sounds fair to me that if a group wipe, the camp is reset. If a group is already there ready, they should have a go at it.
Agreed. You wipe and die. Getting back for them may take time....a...long....time with respawns in their way. Its unclaimed. If you let the second warmup group take the camp then I would say you're being too polite and should've taken the camp when you had the chance. No shame in that. Its first come, first serve.
On the other hand, if you blatantly steal the camp while one of them is still there holding it ( If thats even possible ) until the rest arrive. That is wrong. If the dead group isn't able to come back in a reasonable amount of time say 30mins or less while that person is trying to hold. They should do the right thing and forfeit the camp to the next group. They clearly can't hold it.
My two cents
Porygon said:To make this easy... let's assume camps are respected in Pantheon... I have 2 basic questions.
1) You're in a dungeon, you want to go to a high profile camp (think frenzied in eq1). You call a camp check and a group is already there.
You set up in a different area and periodically venture over to see how they are doing.
You eventually see them, or notice that they wiped... how long do you wait before you claim that camp as yours. 10 mins? 30 mins? How long do you allow them to take to get back. Are you allowed to pull their mobs and potentially their named in the mean time??
2) Subsequently. You zone in and see another group at the entrance buffing. During a camp check they call the camp you want to head to. Do you allow them to take the camp that they havent even gotten to yet... or do you treat it as first come first serve??
I'm taking the camp I want in both situations. I'll respect community etiquette if there is a group alive and fighting at a camp location. No problem, my group will go elsewhere. If nobody is there, it's my camp once I arrive.