Keno Monster said:If you have 2 rogues in your group and one does 1/3 more damage, but dies twice an hour, which is the better player? Which required more mana to get rebuffed, which required more mana for healing that could have been spent more efficiently on the paladin or warrior, or on DPS? How much DPS was lost while the group waited for that rogue to run back from his/her spawn point, or while helping them undergo the corpse retrieval? How will a DPS meter make that person any better at the game? How will a DPS meter act as an indicator of the superior player? It won't.
I think people who believe a DPS meter is mandatory are missing a fundamental understanding.
What if you have a paladin main tank in your group, and when she leaves she's replaced by another identical Paladin who does 1/3 less damage? Is the new Paladin a worse player? What if that new paladin is saving your healers mana by timing stuns and interrupts, by reducing the number of times mobs aggro on your cleric from once a fight to once every other fight? The 2nd paladin who is doing a lot less damage is actually the vastly superior player, enabling everyone else in the group to be safer and to do more DPS themselves. How will a DPS meter improve ANYTHING in this scenario?
These examples go on and on and on. A DPS meter is not only unnecesary, in some situations it is worthless, and in others it is worse to even have one. People will write parsers that utilize the damage log in game. If you want to theorycraft and min max, you will be able to. An in game DPS meter has no place in a game like Pantheon.
If, after 6 hours of kiting bird demons on your shaman, you still can't figure out the most efficient way to err...be efficient, you are a bad player. Having it spelled out for you with a DPS meter isn't going to change that bad player into a good one. They will be a bad player with a DPS meter.
In a pug it may not do much, you are correct. Let's replace the group members with guild mates. If you cannot figure out how a parser will help you in every situation you mentioned then I am fighting a losing battle against ignorance.
beautifully said:Keno Monster said:If you have 2 rogues in your group and one does 1/3 more damage, but dies twice an hour, which is the better player? Which required more mana to get rebuffed, which required more mana for healing that could have been spent more efficiently on the paladin or warrior, or on DPS? How much DPS was lost while the group waited for that rogue to run back from his/her spawn point, or while helping them undergo the corpse retrieval? How will a DPS meter make that person any better at the game? How will a DPS meter act as an indicator of the superior player? It won't.
I think people who believe a DPS meter is mandatory are missing a fundamental understanding.
What if you have a paladin main tank in your group, and when she leaves she's replaced by another identical Paladin who does 1/3 less damage? Is the new Paladin a worse player? What if that new paladin is saving your healers mana by timing stuns and interrupts, by reducing the number of times mobs aggro on your cleric from once a fight to once every other fight? The 2nd paladin who is doing a lot less damage is actually the vastly superior player, enabling everyone else in the group to be safer and to do more DPS themselves. How will a DPS meter improve ANYTHING in this scenario?
These examples go on and on and on. A DPS meter is not only unnecesary, in some situations it is worthless, and in others it is worse to even have one. People will write parsers that utilize the damage log in game. If you want to theorycraft and min max, you will be able to. An in game DPS meter has no place in a game like Pantheon.
If, after 6 hours of kiting bird demons on your shaman, you still can't figure out the most efficient way to err...be efficient, you are a bad player. Having it spelled out for you with a DPS meter isn't going to change that bad player into a good one. They will be a bad player with a DPS meter.
In a pug it may not do much, you are correct. Let's replace the group members with guild mates. If you cannot figure out how a parser will help you in every situation you mentioned then I am fighting a losing battle against ignorance.
Hilarious irony. You are rooted in some very narrow minded thinking. Not to mention the fact that you are equating something that COULD be "helpful" with something that SHOULD be in the game. 2 very different things. And to suggest that it's mandatory and would help in every situation? Well...arguing with someone who speaks in such absolutes is a waste of everyone's time. I feel bad that you can't think outside the box you're stuck in. You're really missing out on what can make games magic aside from min maxing some numbers.
Spluffen said:@Keno Monster
You've been telling this guy you "feel bad for him", how DPS meters belong in arcade games, how a "DPS meter has no place in a game like Pantheon". How about you explain why you don't want the DPS meter instead?
It's rings false. This is an RPG, not a DPS simulation. It will be available outside the game. I illustrated numerous examples of not only how it will be useless, but worse than useless. If people want to theorycraft, get an outside parser. Most importantly, it will not be a reflection of how the game is played. This is not going to be a WOW/ESO style rotation game where if someone's DPS is lower than someone else's it means they aren't mashing their buttons quickly enough. This is a fundamentally different type of game. A DPS meter will not be a good indicator of quality of player beyond a few isolated scenarios, and again, there will be outside the game solutions.
I don't mean to be arrogant, but I truly mean it. Yes, I feel bad for people who think they have to have DPS meter in a game to improve themselves and judge others. It's an indictment of the industry and the titles available in the genre.
EQ was a virtual world based on MUDs. It was a 3D MUD. ESO is an arcade game. You button mash your way through levels like you would in a side scrolling fighter. This game is going back to the roots where immersion and a sense of reality are king. A DPS meter is against that philosophy.
If they succeed in having situational abilities/swapping of skills often based on group composition and environment/mobs then DPS meters tend to be a relatively poor measuring stick. With a limited action set and often changing abilities then each person/class will have numbers all over the board.
"You are a rogue, you should have 100 DPS according to the top Pantheon Logs!"
Now is that 100 DPS vs a mob with no damage shields or PBAoE/AoE granting nearly 100% uptime? With an enchanter in the group? A shaman and enchanter? A bard? A warrior tank or other? Monk puller? Ranger debuffs? On their own with no expected responsibilities or environmental/climate concerns and a full DPS loadout? With the top end gear or average items? Consumeables?
Keno Monster said:If people want to theorycraft, get an outside parser.
Actually I'm not sure if you guys were discussing DPS meters as being shipped with Pantheon or something avaliable as an add-on. If its the latter, that seems to be effectively the exact same thing, maybe something requiring an alt-tab for those not using two monitors. An add-on, like and outside parser, is optional.
Spluffen said:Keno Monster said:If people want to theorycraft, get an outside parser.
Actually I'm not sure if you guys were discussing DPS meters as being shipped with Pantheon or something avaliable as an add-on. If its the latter, that seems to be effectively the exact same thing, maybe something requiring an alt-tab for those not using two monitors. An add-on, like and outside parser, is optional.
There's no difference to me. Add on vs shipping with? It's a part of the game itself either way.
beautifully said:DPS meter is a must....
If you dont want to use it then don't. If a guild uses it to judge apps then don't join them. Or do and prove you belong there and are not a scrub ...
As stated above, DPS meters tell you a lot more than just DPS/HPS. High end guilds dont have time to teach new people how to play thier characters. ...
You arguments are all so fatally flawed.
Basically you admit that you need to use these instead of learning your character - so these can tell you how to play your character instead of teaching how to play your character.
And the constant argument about "dont use it if you dont like it" is ridiculous because it puts an unfairness in the game. "Hey invincibility and infinite plat buff - dont use it if you dont want to" Everybody *HAS* to use the same funcitons to keep up with content.
By the way this is a moot point since they already said "no" but I love hearing the thumb twitchers insult us as noobs (although I'd bet quite heavily that I put in more hours than 99.9% of the players ever on EQ)
Porygon said:...I hesitated to respond because I know it's going to sound insulting. But if you cannot think of a reason why a high end player would need to see a dps meter to fine tune a rotation. Then chances are you will never need to implement the reasons I would end up giving you anyways.
Damage meters are extremely important to high end raiding.
That is a true for the console FPS playing thumb tiwtchers.
It is exactly the opposite of everything Pantheon is being made for (the players who don't want a dumbed down arcade game that is a uber phat l3wtz race to the top)
fazool said:Porygon said:...I hesitated to respond because I know it's going to sound insulting. But if you cannot think of a reason why a high end player would need to see a dps meter to fine tune a rotation. Then chances are you will never need to implement the reasons I would end up giving you anyways.
Damage meters are extremely important to high end raiding.
That is a true for the console FPS playing thumb tiwtchers.
It is exactly the opposite of everything Pantheon is being made for (the players who don't want a dumbed down arcade game that is a uber phat l3wtz race to the top)
People are obsessed with "fine tuning their rotation" because that's all they know. They think that's how every game is and has to be.
fazool said:
Keno Monster said:
The thing that is hilarious about this entire thread. Is you keep saying that dps parsers wont be needed in a game like pantheon... which is largely designed similar to eq.. which once they were available... high end raiders absolutely used damage meters.
Go find someone from Realm of Insanity and ask them if they parse. Cause the answer is yes.
If you didnt. You either didnt raid HIGH END. Or you didnt care.. which in eq was fine. Because you most likely weren't the one they were targeting when deciding to make the melee dps group and the spell caster groups.
To every scenario that you posted about rogues dying and paladins not using stunts properly. I cannot fathom why you think players would not take these things into account. The total gameplay matters. The damage meters are used to fine tune, and honestly find out who sucks. If you're doing half the dps as another member of your class. . You're probably doing something wrong.
I hate that I have to keep bringing it up, but WoW. One of the worst games when it comes to small minded players using dps meters as law.. but even in wow, actual raiders (good raiders) would still analyze logs to determine who was dpsing the boss when they should have been killing adds. Who was standing in fire to max dps when they should have been moving... good players look at these things. It's not just blindly following the number on the meter like you seem to think.
And people are "obsessed" with fine tuning because some people find min/maxing more fun than just willy nilly playing the game. This is not a bad thing.
I dislike addons because they make the game easier in many ways. DPS meters are mostly UI changes in my opinion because they are simply reorganizing data you already have access to ( if you play with other player damage on ). The addons I dislike much more are ones that track the duration of abliities for players. So instead of a player having to keep an eye on a target ( or time it themselves I suppose) and see when it breaks a root or mez, they just see timer get low and recast. Threat meters are another crutch I dislike. If your dps is too hot handed and likes to pull aggro off the tank, they should pay the price for it, not just spam the highest damage abilities they can within resource limits until the threat meter says not to. These are all player skills that should not be handled by addons and instead players be responsible for learning now to adjust for. There's probably other handholding addons I am not thinking of right now that also take away from player repsonsibility but those are just the ones off the top of my head.
I understand that these can also be tools used to optimize resource use and refine damage/healing rotations, but I still prefer that players have to deal with it and human error then it be done by an addon and oversimplify many aspects of the game.
Porygon said:fazool said:Keno Monster said:The thing that is hilarious about this entire thread. Is you keep saying that dps parsers wont be needed in a game like pantheon... which is largely designed similar to eq.. which once they were available... high end raiders absolutely used damage meters.
Go find someone from Realm of Insanity and ask them if they parse. Cause the answer is yes.
If you didnt. You either didnt raid HIGH END. Or you didnt care.. which in eq was fine. Because you most likely weren't the one they were targeting when deciding to make the melee dps group and the spell caster groups.
To every scenario that you posted about rogues dying and paladins not using stunts properly. I cannot fathom why you think players would not take these things into account. The total gameplay matters. The damage meters are used to fine tune, and honestly find out who sucks. If you're doing half the dps as another member of your class. . You're probably doing something wrong.
I hate that I have to keep bringing it up, but WoW. One of the worst games when it comes to small minded players using dps meters as law.. but even in wow, actual raiders (good raiders) would still analyze logs to determine who was dpsing the boss when they should have been killing adds. Who was standing in fire to max dps when they should have been moving... good players look at these things. It's not just blindly following the number on the meter like you seem to think.
And people are "obsessed" with fine tuning because some people find min/maxing more fun than just willy nilly playing the game. This is not a bad thing.
I raided as high end as there possibly was, woke the sleeper and all that. Server firsts out the wazzoo. If you need to parse, use an external utility.
Porygon said:but even in wow, actual raiders (good raiders) would still analyze logs to determine who was dpsing the boss when they should have been killing adds. Who was standing in fire to max dps when they should have been moving... good players look at these things. It's not just blindly following the number on the meter like you seem to think.
Excuse me, but as Pantheon isn't going to be a fast action game (korean games or WoW on mythic difficulty), people will be able to pretty much notice who did what wrong, by just looking at what is happening during the fight... unless you have tunnel vision and are only looking at your UI/cooldowns (which should only happen in fast action games anyways).
There is no need for a dpsmeter or any other addon for this. Look at the damn game.
Keno Monster said:I raided as high end as there possibly was, woke the sleeper and all that. Server firsts out the wazzoo. If you need to parse, use an external utility.
I'm really confused by this response. External parsers can parse in real time. So it's the same as having an in game damage meter... only you have it on a second screen... which I mean, are there still people out there that mmo with 1 monitor?
I just either really misunderstand your perspective on this topic, or were talking about 2 completely different things.
But at the end of the day, I think we just see things differently. And most likely neither of our minds will change.
bobwinner said:Porygon said:but even in wow, actual raiders (good raiders) would still analyze logs to determine who was dpsing the boss when they should have been killing adds. Who was standing in fire to max dps when they should have been moving... good players look at these things. It's not just blindly following the number on the meter like you seem to think.
Excuse me, but as Pantheon isn't going to be a fast action game (korean games or WoW on mythic difficulty), people will be able to pretty much notice who did what wrong, by just looking at what is happening during the fight... unless you have tunnel vision and are only looking at your UI/cooldowns (which should only happen in fast action games anyways).
There is no need for a dpsmeter or any other addon for this. Look at the damn game.
/sigh
This is just wrong. 100%.
Please reread all of the posts in this thread for your answers.
To reiterate. EQ was MUCH slower combat than pantheon looks to be. And parsers were extremely beneficial.
Yes, to add-ons.
But make it no requirement. So that a beginning player doesn't get showered with extra features or options while that player is still exploring the game and discovering if it's something they would like to play more. It could be an extra feature for experienced players, that they could install and intergrate into their own game experience in this game.
From my raiding and gaming experience in general, there are very few high end players that play without add-ons or such and play purely by their gut feeling and there excessive game/character experience. And when it comes to high end raiding, it's nearly impossible to maintain that game style without losing potential. When it comes down to scripted raid mobs, those add-ons might end up to be an 'advised' tool if you want to down the mob anyway. It's not unthinkable that things will lead up to such a point in the future. Don't forget, it's one thing to have the triggers/parses but it's another to have a full raid- or groupforce work as one while using these add-ons. That is a challenge on own.
I've experienced that players with these extra features are therefore not per se better than those without. For those players that do spend their time learning/studying these other gamedata and features, most of the time that's because they have their own motivations to do just that. This might be their chosen gamestyle or experience or it have become a requirement for certain guildranks and that player wants to attain that rank. The loss of immersion for them is quite often something they are willing to "sacrifice", because it could give them a better understanding of the ingame mechanics and might improve their skills as a player in this specific game. That's why, for me, it is important that the dev's allow it to be an outside feature that can be incorporated with the game if the players themselves choose it. This will allow for every starting player to get that immersive experience the dev's have designed to game to provide.
Financially, it is for the game and the dev's best interest to get a big community. You'll want players with all kinds of (constructive/positive) playstyles. And if possible players who are willing to pay subs for their game experience. It could be unwise to leave out players based on the fact that these players are not able to use add-ons, which they are able to in other games. And in the end, bills need to get payed and preferrably with a profit.
Barin999 said:But make it no requirement. So that a beginning player doesn't get showered with extra features or options while that player is still exploring the game and discovering if it's something they would like to play more. It could be an extra feature for experienced players, that they could install and intergrate into their own game experience in this game.
From my raiding and gaming experience in general, there are very few high end players that play without add-ons or such and play purely by their gut feeling and there excessive game/character experience. And when it comes to high end raiding, it's nearly impossible to maintain that game style without losing potential. When it comes down to scripted raid mobs, those add-ons might end up to be an 'advised' tool if you want to down the mob anyway. It's not unthinkable that things will lead up to such a point in the future. Don't forget, it's one thing to have the triggers/parses but it's another to have a full raid- or groupforce work as one while using these add-ons. That is a challenge on own.
I've experienced that players with these extra features are therefore not per se better than those without. For those players that do spend their time learning/studying these other gamedata and features, most of the time that's because they have their own motivations to do just that. This might be their chosen gamestyle or experience or it have become a requirement for certain guildranks and that player wants to attain that rank. The loss of immersion for them is quite often something they are willing to "sacrifice", because it could give them a better understanding of the ingame mechanics and might improve their skills as a player in this specific game. That's why, for me, it is important that the dev's allow it to be an outside feature that can be incorporated with the game if the players themselves choose it. This will allow for every starting player to get that immersive experience the dev's have designed to game to provide.
Financially, it is for the game and the dev's best interest to get a big community. You'll want players with all kinds of (constructive/positive) playstyles. And if possible players who are willing to pay subs for their game experience. It could be unwise to leave out players based on the fact that these players are not able to use add-ons, which they are able to in other games. And in the end, bills need to get payed and preferrably with a profit.
The reason very few high end players play without add-ons is because they are pretty much required in that if you don't use them you are generally at a disadvantage. Add-ons have never been a requirement for playing a game... yet at the same time they are often required. The raid add-ons from WoW took a lot of the required attention/communication/skill out of the equation by making sounds and/or popping large text on the player screen alerting them to every incoming ability, phase change, burn window, etc. and while it didn't just grant instant wins it did make encounters significantly easier. That said I doubt Pantheon is going to use fully scripted encounters.
In general add-ons have a tendency to leave those who opt out at some form of disadvantage, which is what makes them "optional" but mostly required to any serious player. With no add-ons everyone is playing the same game with equal information access.
DPS Parsers will always be a valuable tool. If that means people are standing in AoE to crank out more damage, it doesn't really matter. They aren't there to encourage people to play perfectly, they are there to encourage people to maximize their time. High end guilds want to be as efficient as possible with their time and a big part of measuring that efficiency is with a DPS parser. I have never been a huge fan of how much emphasis certain people put on the parse, especially when it comes to tackling new content. But once you have the encounter mechanics down for a given zone/dungeon, the hardcore guilds want to get in and out so that they move on to other targets. Playing "less efficient" in one sense doesn't really matter ... time efficiency will always matter and generally speaking, people understand that they shouldn't get hit by unnecessary CC or die as it will gimp their numbers.
All of the arguments about maximizing efficiency and time and high end guilds are so incredibly mis guided.
That mentality is exactly the mentality that ruined the MMORPG genre.
If I want to play a game where the important thing is to thumb twitch maximally because it's all about DPS then I'll go play COD
fazool said:All of the arguments about maximizing efficiency and time and high end guilds are so incredibly mis guided.
That mentality is exactly the mentality that ruined the MMORPG genre.
If I want to play a game where the important thing is to thumb twitch maximally because it's all about DPS then I'll go play COD
Don't worry, there will be many casual players like you in Pantheon, you just don't see them as often because of the big guilds already recruiting like TDA.
Who knows? maybe one of the alternate rulesets servers will ban hardcore playstyles!
JK but we should be able stay separate from them so long as VR puts out lots of horizontal content and keeps server numbers down.
I am torn on DPS metrics, I see both sides of the argurment having used them and also the constant stress of trying to be the best.
I always try to do my fair share of damage/or my role in a group or raid, the mandatory DPS meters guild use them to get better with damage and also to see who is just throwing one or two spells out and watching the fight and not helping as much as another person could who wants to be more active.
DPS issues will always be around in this type of game unless casters damage spells can be used like autoattack. Not much room for huge variances in DPS in that case and if there are, a person just changes the rotation of spells then is back performing at peak. Basic example but there it is.