DPS meter is a must. I am fine with not having crap pop up telling you when to joust in and out.
If you dont want to use it then don't. If a guild uses it to judge apps then don't join them. Or do and prove you belong there and are not a scrub trying leach off people who put 5 times the hours into their characters than you do.
As stated above, DPS meters tell you a lot more than just DPS/HPS. High end guilds dont have time to teach new people how to play thier characters. You need to be ready to go when you join and using a DPS meter can help you get there.
I wonder how many times all these nay sayers went to a website to learn about their classes rotations/armor sets/metas. How do you think people come up with those?
Again, you do not have to use them. Start a guild that doesnt use any add-ons and become a top guild, you would earn a lot of respect on that server. I personally dont think it would be possible without going to said above websites though.
beautifully said:Again, you do not have to use them. Start a guild that doesnt use any add-ons and become a top guild, you would earn a lot of respect on that server. I personally dont think it would be possible without going to said above websites though.
Great response. I agree 100%. Dps meters will never hurt a good player. They only shine light on lazy or bad players. And most people dont even care if you're bad as long as you can take direction and learn.
In a raid setting though, if the content is difficult, does meters are a must have for top guilds to fine tune their rotations (which will exist regardless of you liking them or not) and get the win.
Porygon said:beautifully said:Again, you do not have to use them. Start a guild that doesnt use any add-ons and become a top guild, you would earn a lot of respect on that server. I personally dont think it would be possible without going to said above websites though.
Great response. I agree 100%. Dps meters will never hurt a good player. They only shine light on lazy or bad players. And most people dont even care if you're bad as long as you can take direction and learn.
In a raid setting though, if the content is difficult, does meters are a must have for top guilds to fine tune their rotations (which will exist regardless of you liking them or not) and get the win.
Who really needs a DPS meter for rotations ? Every spell, skill, had a damage value, a cost, and a cooldown. Everything can be calculated into Damage/cooldown, damage/cost, and summed up to get your priority order withouth even needing anything else.
A DPS meter will help you understand your application of this priority, but if you need parses to get your standart rotation, you're wasting a lot of time.
MauvaisOeil said:Who really needs a DPS meter for rotations ? Every spell, skill, had a damage value, a cost, and a cooldown. Everything can be calculated into Damage/cooldown, damage/cost, and summed up to get your priority order withouth even needing anything else.
A DPS meter will help you understand your application of this priority, but if you need parses to get your standart rotation, you're wasting a lot of time.
I hesitated to respond because I know it's going to sound insulting. But if you cannot think of a reason why a high end player would need to see a dps meter to fine tune a rotation. Then chances are you will never need to implement the reasons I would end up giving you anyways.
Damage meters are extremely important to high end raiding.
Porygon said:I hesitated to respond because I know it's going to sound insulting. But if you cannot think of a reason why a high end player would need to see a dps meter to fine tune a rotation. Then chances are you will never need to implement the reasons I would end up giving you anyways.
Damage meters are extremely important to high end raiding.
Players have been able to determine what rotations do the most damage from the very beginning before dps meters were available.
Dps meters just caters to the mediocre player. Let players figure it out for themselves without being spoon fed by a add on that tells them what to do.
DPS meter is an insurance of good execution, and clever avoidance of game mechanics while maintaining the maximum uptime, would it be melee uptime, medding uptime, or chain casting, depending of the game.
It's however, absolutely unecessary to figure the "best rotation", priority, or however you like to call it. It's just good to measure how to well your perform it.
Thus I understand why you were hesitant to answer, as you mixed figuring a rotation and checking your own ability to follow it live.
philo said:Porygon said:I hesitated to respond because I know it's going to sound insulting. But if you cannot think of a reason why a high end player would need to see a dps meter to fine tune a rotation. Then chances are you will never need to implement the reasons I would end up giving you anyways.
Damage meters are extremely important to high end raiding.
Players have been able to determine what rotations do the most damage from the very beginning before dps meters were available.
Dps meters just caters to the mediocre player. Let players figure it out for themselves without being spoon fed by a add on that tells them what to do.
This is incorrect. I dont know any of your raiding history. But I do know that without a dps meter you would not be able to figure out exactly what rotation does the most damage without some ridiculously intensive calculations. It's not just about mana cost vs damage. You have to take into consideration debuffs, other abilities which buff yourself, skill/spell procs, gear selection.
EQ was slightly different because no matter how much int you had. Your abilities still did the same damage. That's not how modern mmos are. Now your damage is increased by your stats typically at a ratio (or spell coefficient) based on how fast the spell casts and so on.
You can absolutely look and have an idea of what the best rotation is. But typically without playtesting different abilities, creating priority lists for debuffs buffs and spells and playing with damage to mana ratios (for example what is the maximum number of dots I can sustain while still keeping my mana % above the bosses hp %).
If you think damage meters are for mediocre players. Then you have probably never met a top tier player and had a real conversation about dps.
Also. Just to reiterate. No damage meter tells a player what to do. I dont know what damage meters you think do this. But they dont. All a damage meter does is tell you how much damage you did. Over what time, with what abilities etc. It doesnt tell you, "oh hey philo you need to cast fireball more".
Yup, dps meters are mainly used to evaluate performance through damage delt, uptime of debuffs/buffs, correct target priorization, damage taken from avoidable sources, etc, not figure out rotations,
To figure out the best rotation you can easily calculate it yourself based on the info the ability tooltip gives you and then use simulationcrafting programs to check if your optimal roation will wield out the same results on a pratical situation, then the tool will simulate your ingame dps based on the data you inputed (your gear, level, amount of average movent the fight requires, amount of upitme of melee attacker on targets, etc). There's only on thing that might pose a problem with this system and that's targets resistances (AC, fire, frost, nature etc) being unkown, but i'm sure they'll be figured out pretty quickly and put up on the wiki, so you can still theory craft, with a lot of accuracy. Not to say that the game will have set rotation that must allways be followed, the good players will know when to follow a roation and when to not, becuase as fight are dynamic so must the rotation be dynamic, and what's at the top of your priority will change based on what the fight require and that's what's gona separate the good players from the very good players.
There's only 2 situations that using a dps meter/ingame fight recap tool are benefical,
When you have players in your raid that don't take the blame for their **** ups, and you have to resort to a fight recap tool to see who fucked up and didn't admit it, or who didn't dps the correct priority targets.
@Porg Testing, trial and error. Reviewing your dmg and conversing with others and comparing numbers. Yes it is not as simple as having a meter. That's part of the point. Figuring it out on your own for a particular fight after many runs instead of having a dps meter show you exact numbers.
It's just another example of something that used to encourage interacting with the community that is now automated and completely dumbed down.
I was under the impression you raided heavily in EQ early on Porg but your view on this makes me think otherwise? I don't think you would feel that way if you raided heavily pre dps meters (basically kunark because offline versions were used heavily by velious that I remember. Maybe some used them earlier?).
They simply are not necessary...granted they do make it a lot easier to figure out the most optimal routine. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing. Having no dps meters is another way to make a players personal knowledge and skill of playing the game stand out instead of making that information readily available. Make players figure it out on their own.
Unfortunately we are pretty much past that point unless a game decides to severely restrict the information a player can see.
philo said:I was under the impression you raided heavily in EQ early on Porg but your view on this makes me think otherwise? I don't think you would feel that way if you raided heavily pre dps meters (basically kunark because offline versions were used heavily by velious that I remember. Maybe some used them earlier?).
I literally said in my post that eq1 was one of the only games where you didn't need to use one because your stats did not impact your damage. You had specific buffs and debuffs that would be on every mob, and all you needed to do was figure out the most mana efficient spells. Or the most damaging spells and go to town.
Other games are more complex than eq1. Extremely more complex.
Also without damage meters or parsers you would never know if you needed to seek improvement. Or who was right or wrong if a difference of opinion came out.
Take for example my guild on the phinegal progression server. During classic and kunark we had 11 active necromancers. I was top dps of them all. I knew this because of parsing. Once I figured out who was at the bottom. I analyzed the logs to find out what they were doing wrong and fixed it. That is invaluable in terms of raiding. To ensure you have an entire class on the same page and within 5% - 10% of each other on any given fight.
Porygon said:
Also without damage meters or parsers you would never know if you needed to seek improvement. Or who was right or wrong if a difference of opinion came out.
You would know if you needed improvement after you compared your damage numbers with others, but you don't need a parser for that. You would have to communicate...community interaction.
The second part of your sentence is exactly why not having a dps meter is beneficial. There can be a difference of opinion. Otherwise everyone is exactly the same. Only those who really understand their class and who are the most skilled will understand the little nuances that might make one way slightly better than another. Dps meters make mediocre players better but do little for great players who can come to a similar conclusion without a meter.
The complexity of the game is relative as long as everyone is on a level playing field. We just have to use EQ, or other very early games, as an example because it is only then that dps meters were not heavily used. You could use UO or AC or AO whatever as an example. Most people here played EQ and Pantheon is a Brad game harkening back to the slower paced combat of EQ so that seems like the best example.
A more complex game would actually make it More beneficial to Not use a dps meter, not less, because then it will be even more obvious who the most skilled and knowledgable players are. It won't be as easy for everyone to figure out the most optimal rotations as far as dps for a specific encounter as it was in early EQ.
I encourage rewarding player knowledge and skill. DPS meters are counter to that.
(but again, the players client side info would have to be severely restricted for parsers not to be used in this day and age. It's kind of a waste of breath.)
Porygon said:philo said:I was under the impression you raided heavily in EQ early on Porg but your view on this makes me think otherwise? I don't think you would feel that way if you raided heavily pre dps meters (basically kunark because offline versions were used heavily by velious that I remember. Maybe some used them earlier?).
I literally said in my post that eq1 was one of the only games where you didn't need to use one because your stats did not impact your damage. You had specific buffs and debuffs that would be on every mob, and all you needed to do was figure out the most mana efficient spells. Or the most damaging spells and go to town.
Other games are more complex than eq1. Extremely more complex.
Complex or not, most data get obtainable as quick as building a DPS meter. Breaking down your skills in coefficients, cooldowns and average proc opportunity will naturally result in a priority order. It's not worth a doctorate in mathematics, or the gameplay wouldn't feel flowing or intuitive for anyone.
I've got spreadsheets that are naturally easy to use to break down such things, or gear upgrade, and I'm far to have a diploma in mathematics.
I liked DPS meters when I was younger, less experienced and I spent hours on test areas to figure out things. But now, I only use them to learn and applicate what I figured out mathematically, and teach my muscle memory throught repetitive sessions.
philo said:I encourage rewarding player knowledge and skill. DPS meters are counter to that.
A mediocre player will always be mediocre regardless of how much information they receive.
EQ has been out for 20 years. And there are still people on the prog servers that are bad st their classes.
I think most people can agree that the level of wows customization with addons gives the player more information than they would ever need... yet there are still players leagues above average players.
If you think that giving someone a dps meter is going to take away from your other players ability to recognize your own "skill" you are very wrong. The only reason most people do not like damage meters is because they feel the need to conform to what is known as "best". That's not needed. I've raided with players who played the least efficient class/spec combination many times in wow, and we didnt care. We brought them because they knew the fights. Could communicate and think on their feet, and didnt stand in giant rings of fire. That's how 99% of guilds operate.
The only time you might see a guild tell you to go respec or play differently is if they are #1, and pushing serious progression with dps barriers that they are making. And honestly. If you dont like dogs meters, you probably arent aiming for the top guild. So it doesnt even matter.
You are right about one thing. They are not going to fundamentally change how we get our info (parse with logs) soo it is a waste of time discussing this. Since someone will create a parser (or VR will just put a meter in).
@ Porg The above is only part of it. You didn't address the other part which, in my mind, is the more important part.
The part about there being an opinion and not having the answer spelled out for you exactly by the numbers. Encouraging players to interact to try to find the best outcome. The scenario where players can think differently and there isn't always one clearly best defined rotation so that everyone isn't exactly the same.
It is that situation where everyone knows exactly which buttons to press in which order that I tend to think is the biggest draw back. That is where the "dumbing down" comes from.
It is the same for all type of players. It is actually the cutting edge raiders who are heavily immersed in the game and who are the most skilled players who should be able to figure out the optimal rotations without a dps meter. The casual players have an excuse.
sidenote: (I got into a conversation a few months back about how the skill level of the average mmo gamer seems to have drastically gone down in the last decade or so. The consensus was that it is probably because of a lack of challenge in games and that is what players are used to...but no one brought up the point about add ons making every situation a lot easier to assess the most optimal outcome than it used to be. hmmmm...)
philo said:The part about there being an opinion and not having the answer spelled out for you exactly by the numbers. Encouraging players to interact to try to find the best outcome. The scenario where players can think differently and there isn't always one clearly best defined rotation so that everyone isn't exactly the same.It is that situation where everyone knows exactly which buttons to press in which order that I tend to think is the biggest draw back. That is where the "dumbing down" comes from.
It is the same for all type of players. It is actually the cutting edge raiders who are heavily immersed in the game and who are the most skilled players who should be able to figure out the optimal rotations without a dps meter. The casual players have an excuse.
sidenote: (I got into a conversation a few months back about how the skill level of the average mmo gamer seems to have drastically gone down in the last decade or so. The consensus was that it is probably because of a lack of challenge in games and that is what players are used to...but no one brought up the point about add ons making every situation a lot easier to assess the most optimal outcome than it used to be. hmmmm...)
Brilliant stated response.
Yes current MMORPG players rely infinitely less on dynamic adaptive decision making and knowledge driven choices. However, they are mkuch more skilled at rapid-reaction-based choices. Lot's more faster small decisions versus fewer more complex decisions.
The former MMORPG-er doesn't react quickly to a scenario, they process outcomes make larger decisions with incomplete data, using more interpretation and hypotheses, whereas modern MMORPG-ers have an exact set of actions that will absolutely give the desired outcome *IF* they do it fast enough, at the right time and in the right order. Now, these rapid-actions may be newly constructed sequences so they seem completely new every time, but the difference is that traditional MMO players work with unknowns and their skill comes from making the best decision without any guarantees and modern MMO players make the best decisions with guaranteed results, more rapidly.
Furthernore, there *SHOULD* be disagreemetns and differences of opinions. I do not want some outside influence (aka DPS meter) resolving a dispute over who did more damage or over which spell worked better or which attack sequence was most efficient. I want it to be based 100% on player experience and perception, including completely wrong perceptions. That's the magic of *LIVING* immersed in a virtuial world versus playing a video game that tells YOU the human behind the controller what is happening.
Philo said :
sidenote: (I got into a conversation a few months back about how the skill level of the average mmo gamer seems to have drastically gone down in the last decade or so. The consensus was that it is probably because of a lack of challenge in games and that is what players are used to...but no one brought up the point about add ons making every situation a lot easier to assess the most optimal outcome than it used to be. hmmmm...)
My disgression about the subject, even if off topic : I do think the average skill of the MMORPG Player dropped in the last decades due to the population inflating with non-mmorpg interested gamers, plus the fact that during EQ or early wow, you had challenge you had to overcome with a binary result : Either you fail and try to get better, either your are better and you succeed.
Now games are making a plethora of difficulty modes, making a challenge/boss design, a handfull of different fights you can pick depending of your skill level. You are no longer compelled to get better to see content/fights and get better gear, you just pick whatever is easy enough and remain there, while the item inflation is 4x worse than it was with a standart difficulty.
beautifully said:DPS meter is a must. I am fine with not having crap pop up telling you when to joust in and out.
If you dont want to use it then don't. If a guild uses it to judge apps then don't join them. Or do and prove you belong there and are not a scrub trying leach off people who put 5 times the hours into their characters than you do.
As stated above, DPS meters tell you a lot more than just DPS/HPS. High end guilds dont have time to teach new people how to play thier characters. You need to be ready to go when you join and using a DPS meter can help you get there.
I wonder how many times all these nay sayers went to a website to learn about their classes rotations/armor sets/metas. How do you think people come up with those?
Again, you do not have to use them. Start a guild that doesnt use any add-ons and become a top guild, you would earn a lot of respect on that server. I personally dont think it would be possible without going to said above websites though.
Wow, just wow. I don't even know where to start with this. You are so far off on pretty much everything. DPS meters are for arcade games. Something tells me you've never played game like what most of us here hope Pantheon will become.
philo said:It is that situation where everyone knows exactly which buttons to press in which order that I tend to think is the biggest draw back. That is where the "dumbing down" comes from
What situation is this. Name the game that this takes place in. Because I honestly feel like you're just inventing issues because dps meters dont line up with how you feel a game should be played.
And there IS communication. I am an ABOVE AVERAGE player. I spend HOURS reading theory crafting sites, blogs and looking at other players parses. I even pug the raids as much as I can, running lower difficulty raids so I can practice mechanics on more than just a target dummy. And I STILL send tells to fellow players asking their opinions on things. You're inventing "de-socialization" where it doesnt exist. Most people are not good enough, nor smart enough to theory craft for themselves. And the ones that are still seek opinions of other in their "fields".
fazool said:Furthernore, there *SHOULD* be disagreemetns and differences of opinions. I do not want some outside influence (aka DPS meter) resolving a dispute over who did more damage or over which spell worked better or which attack sequence was most efficient. I want it to be based 100% on player experience and perception, including completely wrong perceptions. That's the magic of *LIVING* immersed in a virtuial world versus playing a video game that tells YOU the human behind the controller what is happening.
See my response to philo regarding disagreements and arguments around what's best.. because even in a game like wow where everything is handed to you and theres countless addons to parse what's most effective. Theres still a 100 pages thread for holy paladins about what aura mastery is best to use in a raid setting. Giving us a dps meter doesnt affect people opinions, unless their opinion is literally well 10 is more than 20 (notice this is factually incorrect). And as I mentioned before in another post. If you really believe that 10 is better than 20, you can play that way. And 99% of players wont care. You just wont be joining any serious content pushing guilds
To your second point. I dont want to live in a virtual world. I dont care about being immersed. I'm playing a video game. I want to beat said video game according to my guidelines behind what "beating the game" means. Not everyone cares about immersion. The simple arguement that everyone makes, yet is still valid. If a dps meter breaks your immersion dont use it. Unless your raiding cutting edge content, most people dont care what you're doing as long as you're not useless.
Shai said:beautifully said:...prove you belong there and are not a scrub trying leach off people who put 5 times the hours into their characters than you do.
I get a little sad whenever I see people equate effectiveness with time-spent
Yea this mentality is why people do not like dps meters. However. Most people do not feel this way. As I've stated before being a very high level gamer. I typically lean towards helping someone improve before just booting them from my raids or groups. Not everyone is a jerk lol.
I hope there won't be any addons.
If something is considered mandatory, like the dpsmeter mentionned above (I personally disagree with this), then it should be built-in in the game.
Everyone should have the same game, same rules, same interface (except windows positions and toggle on/off things).
If you have 2 rogues in your group and one does 1/3 more damage, but dies twice an hour, which is the better player? Which required more mana to get rebuffed, which required more mana for healing that could have been spent more efficiently on the paladin or warrior, or on DPS? How much DPS was lost while the group waited for that rogue to run back from his/her spawn point, or while helping them undergo the corpse retrieval? How will a DPS meter make that person any better at the game? How will a DPS meter act as an indicator of the superior player? It won't.
I think people who believe a DPS meter is mandatory are missing a fundamental understanding.
What if you have a paladin main tank in your group, and when she leaves she's replaced by another identical Paladin who does 1/3 less damage? Is the new Paladin a worse player? What if that new paladin is saving your healers mana by timing stuns and interrupts, by reducing the number of times mobs aggro on your cleric from once a fight to once every other fight? The 2nd paladin who is doing a lot less damage is actually the vastly superior player, enabling everyone else in the group to be safer and to do more DPS themselves. How will a DPS meter improve ANYTHING in this scenario?
These examples go on and on and on. A DPS meter is not only unnecesary, in some situations it is worthless, and in others it is worse to even have one. People will write parsers that utilize the damage log in game. If you want to theorycraft and min max, you will be able to. An in game DPS meter has no place in a game like Pantheon.
If, after 6 hours of kiting bird demons on your shaman, you still can't figure out the most efficient way to err...be efficient, you are a bad player. Having it spelled out for you with a DPS meter isn't going to change that bad player into a good one. They will be a bad player with a DPS meter.
Shai said:beautifully said:...prove you belong there and are not a scrub trying leach off people who put 5 times the hours into their characters than you do.
I get a little sad whenever I see people equate effectiveness with time-spent
Generally, people who spend a lot of time researching their class/pouring over DPS meters and reading forums are better than others who spend no time working on their characters. Is this the golden rule? No. I'm not sure where you were going with this.
The only players who are scared of DPS meters are average and below average players trying to get into hardcore clans. There are lots of guilds for these kinds of players so im not sure what the argument is. I don't say this with malice either, I don't care how you play your game. Let me play mine the way I want to play it.
Others have pointed out that if you can demonstrate an earnest to learn and can joust out of rings, most clans will work with you regardless of the DPS meters, which is true. The fact remains there will most likely be DPS races involved like most games and we need to know whos slacking. This isnt EQ where anything can be fixed by adding a few more groups to the raid.