We all love our gear, and getting the best or close to the best gear is an awesome feeling. The one thing I have noticed over the last 20 years gaming is my focus was on my character when I was new to MMOs, but it soon turned towards my gear. It all became about the gear and how to get it. I honestly feel that has diminished my gaming experience in the way I no longer strive to have a better character, only better gear. The character becomes just a after thought. EQ added in AA which gave us a way to advance the character that didnt depend on gear. I was wondering if something like that would be as interesting in todays gaming world??
I know there will be tons of content and items/gear to help advance your toons, and I look forward to the gaming it takes and the hope to meet a lot of you people and maybe call a few friends. But one thing end game gear does is it tends to drive people into a core group of friends/guildies who raid together, not expanding your community while doing more so then having people apply to your guild etc.
Forgive me if it has been talked about before (and i find it hard to believe it hasnt) but would giving people a way to advance their characters stats and abilities that doesnt depend solely on gear be a good or bad thing? and how far if at all would those stats/abilities take you. Could you say compete with someone in end game epic gear and few advancement optiions to char taken, while your in uncommon but not exciting gear but have put a lot of time into your advancement stats/skills?
I never experienced EQ's AA system, but from what I understand it was very similar to DAoC's Realm Rank system in that you earn points that you can spend on upgrading your character's stats or purchasing passive or active abilities. I think this adds a lot of flavor and uniqueness to individual characters, and players can better fine-tune their characters to their playstyle, whether it's soloing, duoing, grouping/dungeon crawling, or raiding.
I would love to see a system like this as long as it's done well.
I feel like what you're saying could also be tied into the Progeny system / Remorting and/or the mentoring system.
Lots of neat ways to achieve the goal that you describe here. :) It's one of the reasons I've been throwing out ideas for the Progeny system and pressing for info from VR. Would love to see it--or a similar system--come to fruition, but it needs to be done in a way that will resonate with the majority of the player base or it's not really worth doing.
But much of this has indeed been discussed. However, I don't think anything tangible has come out of it yet. At least not that we are aware of.
Here is a thread that was started by Kils that talks about AAs:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4318/alternate-advancement-aa-s
I know there are other AAs threads but that might be a good place to start.. There are multiple progeny threads. Progeny would be another way to further advance your character beyond gear. (please read those threads with a giant grain of salt as there is a lot of speculation and confusion in them).
Character advancement beyond gear has been discussed in many different forms. It is a very broad topic the way you are bringing it up.
I view the OP in a bit different context than what's been responded to so far. Likely because he brings up a topic what's very important to me. So let's look at just his topic..
you see he's not actually talking about AA's that's not the subject. The real question he's asking would be lost in an AA thread. I have mentioned this before, it's what i consider a faulty evolution of MMOs over the years, I call it "Barbie Dress Up". In today's games we don't build a character anymore, We all have a Barbie doll and were dressing it up, The games are about gear, epic gear, BIS, Raid gear, and then the next expansions new Raid gear.
Leveling up your 1HB, 2HB, 1HS, Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, Swimming have all but been lost in exchange for collecting Chanel, Lauren, Hilfiger, and Armani. I think the OP is pointing out that AA's are one thing to add to the game that is outside of new outfits for our rough tough Barbie Dolls,, but AA's themselves are not his topic.
As for his question, is that what pantheon is going to be or not? I don't have the answer yet (but I am watching for it), I haven't seen anything to say one way or the other. I haven't see a Wizard fizzle, haven't seen a Warrior pass on a 2HB because he didn't have the skill to use it. I haven't seen the big rough tough epic geared Warrior (yea I know I always pick on warriors) standing on the Dock begging for Levitation to cross the water because he rushed to level 50 and is a pathetic swimmer as the level 25 jumps in and is gone. I think it much to early to see any of that. The most we could hope for at this time would be to hear Brads goals on this specifically.
I know Brads in favor of horizontal progression and i think this falls into that category.
Edit: Cell Phones are not for posting messages.
I believe Zorkon has interpreted Drayian's OP correctly. Based on posts from Brad elsewhere in the forums, we're not going to have AA's. At least it won't be called "Alternate Advancement" since it's going to be core to the game design and not something that was applied as a band-aid after a couple of expansions.
I too would like to see far more emphasis on learning and levelling skills. When you ding, you shouldn't automatically get new abilities. You should have to quest for new traits or abilities. Your level should just be a cap on how powerful those traits and abilities can become or whether you're able to learn them at all.
With AA's, you just picked them from a list. Some had prerequisites, but you were essentially able to just shop with your AA points for anything available to your class. You earned the AA's by converting some percentage of your experience points to the AA bank. You could have simply gone to the same zone and killed the same 10 mobs for months and you somehow learned new and wonderful skills in the process.
Character skills and abilities should come through research, practice and knowledge gained through questing. In some cases, they may also be acquired through the teachings of another player (as in EQ languages). If you want to learn 1HB, then perhaps one method would be by sparring with another player who had higher skill than yourself.
The problem with EQ's skill advancement system was it just happened automatically with no conscious effort. Sense heading could be learned by simply binding the skill to a movement key. By level 8, your SH skill would be maxed forever. To max swimming, you'd spend 10 minutes each level swimming in a circle AFK while you grabbed a sandwich and a cold drink from the fridge. Caster traits like Evocation or Divination were slightly better, in that you levelled them up by casting the spells which were associated with that skill. Melee could level 1HB by using a one-handed weapon in combat. In each case these felt more like a chore than something which you deserved through your actions in the game.
If I'm granted a new ability, there should be some story behind it. I just completed a critical task for my guild master and he now feels I'm ready to learn something new. He sends me on a quest to collect the scrolls with the ancient wisdom or sends me to a specific encounter when I may be trained/tested by a famous warrior/wizard/whatever. The expectation should be that I can fail my quests/training and may have to come back when I am more prepared.
Let the process of revealing new abilities be a process of discovery. Collecting epic gear should only be a small part of life on Terminus. Becoming epic as a character should be a higher priority.
For what it is worth, I heartily agree with the basic concept that there should be ways of improving the *character* rather than simply getting him or her to maximum level and then the game is about gear.
Whether this is done via the progeny system, a customization system which may or may not have anything in common with AAs, subclasses, skills that can be improved, or the like is less important than the clear desirability of having some things that are not about gear even at level-cap.
great topic. This is where I am torn. If "Fashion-quest is real" then from some MMO's I have been trained to see the better gear as also having a better or different appearance. But at the same time I am all for leveling the character over the gear. I am torn because if I can identify the awesomeness of someone elses gear just from looking at it, I see the BiS because of its appearance. I see Drayians query to be, how can BiS/gear goals be seperated from fashion/paper doll fun. Interestingly, in my mind it seems to lead to the trivialization of cosmetic gear. Why would I want something that looks awesome if its just fake- like shoulderpads in the 80's (lol- michelle pfiefer character in "Married to the mob" look at those shoulderpads! haha!). EXCEPT for its value in roleplay like evening or formalwear.
Brainstorming on that and combining it with collectibles, IF* there was a bard/chanter class and the bard that chose acting over singing could collect a number of costumes that they would have to store- they have no gear related stats and are just cosmetic like a Quasimodo costume, classic jester costume, death costume, plague doctor costume (with the long pointy nose) but from having those costumes like skill points would add to a talent repetoire when in battle like strength, improve stamina/endurance, instill gloom, provide increased regeneration.
So the bard could wear the useless costume in town and everyone is ha ha ha, but if in battle the bard would wear their normal fighting gear and because they had earned the costume from learning the "talent" maybe- they could use that talent when in the group. Or maybe instead of normal fighting gear the BiS-less costume would be the situational gear. I say Bard/chanter as actor because they could charm or influence monsters from how they look in their costume and having learned how to...act the part.
*Bards are not in game as of yet.
(personal RP view to bards: they should be conflicted narcissictic sychophants and lame and probably OP. I hate to like having them around)
I agree with a lot of what is being said or hinted at in this thread. I am a bit skeptical of peoples single minded focus on loot, especially in the loot rules thread. In my opinion the preoccupation with loot promotes self-centeredness and moves people away from the community mentality that we are striving for. There are plenty of loot-centered games out there, and I truly hope PRF doesn't turn out to be one.
Luckily VR has stuck to its guns from the beginning and is going out of their way to include methods of progression that have nothing to do with loot. The acclimation system for one, and going back to a style of game play where characters need to earn their abilities and spells is another, and skill levels of things like swimming and climbing is another, and your faction standings are yet another. There are others I am sure, I just cant remember them right now. Putting additional emphasis on aspects like these and de-emphasizing loot is definitely a step in the right direction.
I totally agree that having multiple methods of progression aside from just collecting gear and lvling up is essential to creating a good game. I am definitely looking forward to finding out what additional methods of progression the VR team can come up with. Hopefully the ultimate form of progression is your standing within the community.
@Zorkon: Are you suggesting that there should be a "one or the other" type of limited choice as far as thing like basic skills? An example might be specific weapon skill...say 1 hnd blunt vs 1hnd slash? We should have the option of choosing, but in making that choice we should be restricted in other choices?
Zorkon said: Leveling up your 1HB, 2HB, 1HS, Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, Swimming have all but been lost
Not lost, simply maxed out. Everyone of the same class has access to all the same skills so there is nothing differentiating people. The few redeeming character traits that separate someone from someone else are gear, AAs etc. These are the things that differentiate your character from another over the long run. The only differentiating factor for competent players is time played and some slight variations in choices of how they want to build their character...mostly through gear choice variations. Even rare drop, quested spells and abilities all get acquired if they are important enough to spend the time to acquire. It is part of the draw back of these type of games.
Content can't be produced faster than players can play through it so even the most difficult items are always attainable over the long run unless they are somehow artificially restricted...and in artificially restricting them you upset the players who are not able to attain them due to the restriction. It is in the best interest of the designer to keep these restrictions to the minimum. People still complain about awakening the sleeper making some items unattainable. People don't usually look fondly on these type of artificial restrictions...and if the items/spells/abilities being restricted are useful you then have a "haves vs have not" scenario where the "have nots" become restricted from certain content by other players in the community. It can be a slippery slope.
Isn't it really all just a testamnet to what any game has to offer?
If you get to max level and all that is left to do is to get better gear, which is usually the case, then that is what players will focus on. I feel Typically its the "easy fix". A kind of lazy, lets roll out new content attitude from the company. Get to max level and then get the best gear. Rinse, repeat.
From what I've seen, another reason I am pumped and ready to play this game for years, hopefully, Is there are a lot of new systems in place that are going to make each character better themselves to progress.
However, I would not like to see the need for epic gear to die. I would just like to see a more 50/50 maybe 40/60 ratio when balancing the best version of your character.
philo said:
@Zorkon: Are you suggesting that there should be a "one or the other" type of limited choice as far as thing like basic skills? An example might be specific weapon skill...say 1 hnd blunt vs 1hnd slash? We should have the option of choosing, but in making that choice we should be restricted in other choices?
Not at all! I'm not suggesting taking anything away from the game, I'm talking adding too it. I think the simplest way to describe what I would like to see is, more defining skills and abilities should be added that are left with the character when he's on a naked corpse run. The Character is not the gear.
I Love Celandor's idea that the level should just be the CAP not automatically getting the ability or trait. A Ding should just make that +5STR and +5AC (plus dozens of other new traits) available to you, not give them to you.
Celandor said:
I too would like to see far more emphasis on learning and leveling skills. When you ding, you shouldn't automatically get new abilities. You should have to quest for new traits or abilities. Your level should just be a cap on how powerful those traits and abilities can become or whether you're able to learn them at all.
Let's say those +5STR can be gained by exercising certain muscles' or all muscles if you want all 5 (as well as leveling +5 to the skill itself , not taking that away)
You would get +1STR by swinging a 2HB for those Back Muscles. +1STR more by swinging a 2HS to work up those Abs. +1STR more by swinging 2HS and getting those pecks in shape. +1STR with kick to get your legs in shape. Or you could choose to fast track to LvL50 and just take the +1STR for 2HS and compromise the other 4 with a Nice +5 Breastplate.
H2H to get some callus built up for some AC, Naked Corps running could get you AC by callusing your feet.
Add more traits or abilities and the players earn them when and if they choose, not just giveing them
Balance (1HB, mixed 1HB and 1HS)
Strategy (mix up the types of mobs you level on... if you find that GREAT exp Orc camp and rock 5 levels there your "Strategy" rating will suffer as you only get strategy points for Orcs+1, you would get none from goblins+1 bandits+1, pirates+1
Ideally of course the Ultimate Warrior would have all stats maxed and epic gear. But I think the stats should be as important to get as the gear and a player should have to work for them.
Zorkon said:Not at all! I'm not suggesting taking anything away from the game, I'm talking adding too it. I think the simplest way to describe what I would like to see is, more defining skills and abilities should be added that are left with the character when he's on a naked corpse run. The Character is not the gear.
I Love Celandor's idea that the level should just be the CAP not automatically getting the ability or trait. A Ding should just make that +5STR and +5AC (plus dozens of other new traits) available to you, not give them to you.
But that doesn't differentiate 1 character from another as I mentioned in my post above. If each class has access to all the same skills and abilities they all end up the same...unless there are choices that come with restrictions.
You can add skills and abilities until the cows come home but if there isn't a "one or the other" type of choice, given time, everyone is identical. Gear and AAs were mentioned because they are some of the few things that separates one character from another. The player has to choose between various gear options and various AA options at the exclusion of others.
I guess I'm not seeing how what you are asking for makes any character unique or different from any other? Whether the player is given ability X or has to acquire ability X through other means doesn't solve the "cookie cutter" issue. It is only a temporary delay.
I don't consider these types of "either or" choices negatively. I would like to see them more often.
philo said:Zorkon said:Not at all! I'm not suggesting taking anything away from the game, I'm talking adding too it. I think the simplest way to describe what I would like to see is, more defining skills and abilities should be added that are left with the character when he's on a naked corpse run. The Character is not the gear.
I Love Celandor's idea that the level should just be the CAP not automatically getting the ability or trait. A Ding should just make that +5STR and +5AC (plus dozens of other new traits) available to you, not give them to you.
But that doesn't differentiate 1 character from another as I mentioned in my post above. If each class has access to all the same skills and abilities they all end up the same...unless there are choices that come with restrictions.
You can add skills and abilities until the cows come home but if there isn't a "one or the other" type of choice, given time, everyone is identical. Gear and AAs were mentioned because they are some of the few things that separates one character from another. The player has to choose between various gear options and various AA options at the exclusion of others.
I guess I'm not seeing how what you are asking for makes any character unique or different from any other? Whether the player is given ability X or has to acquire ability X through other means doesn't solve the "cookie cutter" issue. It is only a temporary delay.
I don't consider these types of "either or" choices negatively. I would like to see them more often.
Well I pretty much agree with what your saying, no it doesn't differentiate one player from the other. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.
Zorkon said:Well I pretty much agree with what your saying, no it doesn't differentiate one player from the other. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.
Here is a summary of the OPs main points:
The one thing I have noticed over the last 20 years gaming is my focus was on my character when I was new to MMOs, but it soon turned towards my gear. It all became about the gear and how to get it. I honestly feel that has diminished my gaming experience in the way I no longer strive to have a better character, only better gear. The character becomes just a after thought.
...giving people a way to advance their characters stats and abilities that doesnt depend solely on gear be a good... thing? and how far if at all would those stats/abilities take you. Could you say compete with someone in end game epic gear and few advancement optiions to char taken, while your in uncommon but not exciting gear but have put a lot of time into your advancement stats/skills?
If we understand why that ^ is, why the main focus is on gear, then we understand that gear is one of the few things that differentiates one character from another.
The only way stats and abilities can separate a character in a similar manner to gear is if those stats and abilities are limited, similar to how you have to pick and choose your gear. There would have to be some type of "either/or" choice that a player makes in regards to stats and abilities otherwise, given time, everyone is the same and the answer to the OPs question :
how far if at all would those stats/abilities take you?
...is not far at all if you are the same as everyone else. The only way to make stats and abilities similar to gear in that respect is to restrict them so everyone isn't identical in the long run.
Unsure if I explained that well? Hopefully you get my meaning.
I think you explain it well, I understand what your saying. But now I ask you the same question directed at gear.
Are you suggesting that some gear should be one of a kind? If not then same situation as with tge stats or AA's given time any character could have the same stats with BIS gear as any other.
But again I don't belive that's what this thread is addressing. It's referencing building a character, instead of JUST dressing one.
IF the Dev's deemed it positively to limit the stat paths available to eather or, or if the Dev's decided they needed to add one of a kind gear.... still different topic.
What? No I don't think gear should be one of a kind anymore than skills/abilities should be one of a kind? Not sure where that came from?
You are right. This thread is about building a character. That's my point...if everyone has access to everything there is no building. In my mind building implies a choice. That's where the " either/or " scenario comes in. If everyone of the same class has access to all of the same skills/abilities/spells etc the player isn't choosing to build their character. They simply have access to all of the options presented to them and they will attain/max them all out given enough time. There is nothing differentiating characters. On the other hand...if a player can choose a fire resist spell Or a cold resist spell, but not both...and there are a multitude of similar options presented over the lifespan of the character, now you have a scenario where the player is choosing to build their character how they want. It's similar to how players have so many gear options, but they are limited by the slots the gear fits into. Players are forced to make choices with gear, not as often with other aspects of character building.
As far as there being a "perceived best" choice in every "either/or" situation...like you are referring to bis gear...that can always be there but it is opinion based. VR has made it very clear there isn't going to be a single bis gear in tiers like some other games so that is not a concern.
I'm a little confused because you say you understand but then you say the following: I don't think you would if you understood...
But again I don't belive that's what this thread is addressing. It's referencing building a character, instead of JUST dressing one.
If we had as many varying options of abilities as we have gear, and were limited in our ability choices that can be used like we are gear, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Granted, abilities are just one small part of building a character. Its just being used as an example. The same can be extrapolated to many other aspects of character building.
It's absolutely related. It's not a "different topic". To understand one of the main reasons about why gear has become so important is to understand why other aspects of character building havn't.
There is a whole other discussion about possible solutions once it is understood that the restrictions, forcing a player to make choices...those either/or scenarios...are necessary. We might have to take that to pms hah ;)
There is no simple answer to this. But basically, there will be enough horizontal progression so that your sole focus is not on getting to end game and getting gear. I can provide other links if you want, but since the OP asked if an AA system would be interesting in this game, here are a few things that come to mind:
From the FAQ:
4.9 Are there plans for alternate advancement (AA) paths?
Something similar may be added post-launch but currently we’re focused on primary class advancement through leveling, skills, abilities, spells, and items.
Also check out this clip from the Dec '16 stream: 01:56:28 Alternate advancement
Here are some other threads you may be interested in:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3680/aa-alternate-advancement-points
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4335/methods-of-alternate-advancement
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7956/horizontal-progression-idea
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2359/avoiding-bis-gear-labeling
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2398/a-problem-with-modern-mmo-s-gear-is-the-goal
For Champions+: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5051/aas-alternate-advancement-points
This thread hits on the core of why I don’t favor the class/level based game system over a more customizable skill tree based system. Don’t get me wrong I am very much looking forward to playing Pantheon and there is a really good chance that Brad and team will be able to come up with some really innovative concepts that make a class/level system really feel broad and compelling.
If I were to go back to square one then I would switch back to a classless based system with limitless character growth. Similar to elder scrolls single player games I would make “level ups” be based on the total number of skill ranks earned. About all a level up gives a player though is another learning point to add to their skill tree.
Players built their Class based on the combinations of skill trees they choose to put their learning points into. These learning points unlock passive and active abilities. The different trees have both direct (fire and ice ball) and indirect (damage shield on a melee tank) synergies. The number of skill rank increases required to gain another learning point goes up exponentially and the relative exp required to gain a skill rank also goes up exponentially. In addition there will be quests and consumable items required to get past certain total learning point thresholds, skill tree points thresholds, and skill rank thresholds.
Items have a minimum skill rank requirement and or a specific learning point threshold to equip and get the full benefits from. Items also must be used for a while (aka items have their own exp bar that effects their power) before they reach their standard potential and over time can surpass their original design intent. Most of the characters power magnitude comes from items but access to those items is based on skill ranks and specific learning points.
You can build Multi class characters if that’s your thing, if you are good at finding synergies then multi class characters can compete with focused single skill tree characters in general but not in their specialty. The profession system would also be an entire second tree and level system separate from the combat system but with a similar design.
This kind of system does very much allow a player to botch their character into useless mush so there will need to be ways to “forget” learning points though it need not be cheap or simple. I could even see a benefit to leveling a character with some learning points you fully intend to forget once a different tree hits a certain threshold.
I really don’t see a way to blend this idea into Pantheon but it is a different way of solving this question while giving a character virtually limitless growth potential but without increasing its magnitude through the roof.
Trasak
If you advance your character at end game, then you need to think about...
1) Can you switch your character's advancement ever, at cost, or on the fly? Gear can be swapped to provide situational changes, but character advancement *often* cannot be easily swapped.
2) What type of play is required for character advancement? Is this just an extension of the exp system or are specific types of play required? Does it encourage a varied and fun style of play? If all I need to do to advance my character is farm boars with a staff instead of a sword, then that's not very fun. The gear hunt encourages travelling the world, trading, and farming.
3) Can power inflation be avoided? If you are advancing your character's ability in a situational manner (e.g. ice resist), then it's just horizontal progression. If you are increasing generally applicable traits, then power creep has begun.
Now if you're talking about advancement in the course of traditional leveling, then I think it's a great idea that is already in place. I'm pretty sure there's video evidence (maybe in Bazgrim's links) to support that. You can be level 15, but if you've never attempted to cast a divination spell, then you need to practice up to get better at it, but you'll never be able to train past your current level's maximum.
Ainadak said:
If you advance your character at end game, then you need to think about...
1) Can you switch your character's advancement ever, at cost, or on the fly? Gear can be swapped to provide situational changes, but character advancement *often* cannot be easily swapped.
2) What type of play is required for character advancement? Is this just an extension of the exp system or are specific types of play required? Does it encourage a varied and fun style of play? If all I need to do to advance my character is farm boars with a staff instead of a sword, then that's not very fun. The gear hunt encourages travelling the world, trading, and farming.
3) Can power inflation be avoided? If you are advancing your character's ability in a situational manner (e.g. ice resist), then it's just horizontal progression. If you are increasing generally applicable traits, then power creep has begun.
Now if you're talking about advancement in the course of traditional leveling, then I think it's a great idea that is already in place. I'm pretty sure there's video evidence (maybe in Bazgrim's links) to support that. You can be level 15, but if you've never attempted to cast a divination spell, then you need to practice up to get better at it, but you'll never be able to train past your current level's maximum.
I’m assuming you were responding to me and not a different post in the thread, egg on my face if you were not.
1) All passive and active abilities would be based on your spent learning points in the skill trees. Through difficult and time consuming/expensive means you can move spent learning points to another legal option. Its not something you would be able to do on the fly. Additionally while you might have 35 ranks in restoration (think levels not ranks) and are able to wear gear with + to healing effect but your current tree only has points in onehanded dex weapons, elemental attacks and light armor and no healing abilities other than bind wounds that healing gear is not going to give you anything.
2) I’m all for use it to learn it. While you may be level 50 in 2-hand swords that doesn’t translate to quarter staff fighting. You will need to pick up a staff and start practicing. Where this makes more sense though is that the early skill ranks do not take much exp to level so you can start with mobs appropriate to level 1 weapon skill. The higher level mob you can take with your skill the more experience you can get so having high defensive stats will allow you to take mobs that a normal level 1 could not. You would need to put some checks in like, you get exp to the highest rank weapon skill you used, if in a group you must do 10% of the total contribution to get exp so as to stop power leveling. I personally dislike the concept of trivialized mobs not giving any exp it will just be so little as to not be helpful.
3) With the tree system you could in theory be more than one class effectively at the same time but to gain that many learning points would be such an astronomical time sync as to make it nearly impossible. You would still be limited in magnitude by your gear and if you were trying to be two classes at once you would be splitting your power between two roles making the total effect at one role still less than someone with only one tree and the gear to go with it.
4) To me, skill ranks with a level cap and no choice impact are just pointless time syncs. If within 10% of the level all of my skills maxed out for the then just make the skill tied to my level and be done with it. If there is no level cap on the skills and your target skill ranks take more exp than the previous levels total exp then skill ranks are compelling. For spells I would have skill ranks effect the magnitude of the spells, the resist rate of the spells and your chance to successfully cast the spell.
A concept I think would be interesting to add to Pantheon as is would be that adverse effect reduce your chance to successfully cast. Standing still with no bad weather, good light and no one attacking you would be very different than running in an ash storm with obscuring dust and shards of rock bouncing off your head. I would also split skill ranks away from levels having gear have skill requirements to be fully effective and have character levels only effect your HP and when you get class powers. I could even see class powers be part of their own character level independent skill.
Trasak said:3) With the tree system you could in theory be more than one class effectively at the same time
This is exactly what we want to avoid. It sounds like me you are just describing WoW except you want to make it harder to change your tree.
I understand that you want there to be meaningful choices that have a tangible effect on how your character interacts with the game world, but I don't think you have thought this through. Even if there are multiple paths it wont stop characters from ending up nearly identcal. One of the paths will always be considered superior and it will pigeonhole that class into that tree, just like WoW, just like a half dozen other games.
I really enjoyed the Elder Scrolls style of leveling as well, but Elder Scrolls was for the most part a single player game, not an MMO. I would prefer VR spend time building content rather than endlessly balancing dozens of class trees. And honestly, just choose another class if you want variety.
From skimming through the thread (sorry, didn't read everything in it's entirety), I wanted to present my post over from the classes forum to this. I think EQOA did a great job (maybe not the best job) in tackling some of the things being mentioned here. While end-game for EQOA was about raiding, getting gear, and getting better spells for your character through questlines or farming, it was also about "leveling" up through class mastery points in order to make your character stronger (so that raiding, farming, etc was easier). I understand now that it is a sort of AA, but I really enjoyed it. I always had something to do on my main character, even after I had everything gear wise or spell wise; I could go grind out some CM's! Which was fun in a way because I was able to showcase my "strong" character to all the other players out there just starting to level up there characters in the same XP areas. So, it was a way for players to come back to XP locations and always have something to earn for their character outside of gear. Hope that gives some food for thought.
Here's the link if anyone wants to go check it out:
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8061/class-mastery
Xbachs said:Trasak said:3) With the tree system you could in theory be more than one class effectively at the same time
This is exactly what we want to avoid. It sounds like me you are just describing WoW except you want to make it harder to change your tree.
I understand that you want there to be meaningful choices that have a tangible effect on how your character interacts with the game world, but I don't think you have thought this through. Even if there are multiple paths it wont stop characters from ending up nearly identcal. One of the paths will always be considered superior and it will pigeonhole that class into that tree, just like WoW, just like a half dozen other games.
I really enjoyed the Elder Scrolls style of leveling as well, but Elder Scrolls was for the most part a single player game, not an MMO. I would prefer VR spend time building content rather than endlessly balancing dozens of class trees. And honestly, just choose another class if you want variety.
I never seem to do a terribly good job explaining my ideas even in passing. The two main points that would settle some of your concerns, remember this is more a game theory discussion and not recommendations for PROTF specifically, would be:
1) the magnitude of your characters power is based on your gear so unless both of your trees use exactly the same stats then you can really only be one in a single encounter.
2) lets say to get to 50 total learning points which would get you all the abilities in one tree would take you 1k hours of play, but to get to 100 learning points you would need 10k hours of play and some of the break through challenges would be truly epic.
Path of Exile and Starwars Galaxies are two games that are more tree based systems, RIP SWG. While there were flavors of the month and more common builds there is still a lot of diversity across the population in both build and play style. I do agree that in class based games choice trees usually do have very little in the way of actual options. For meaningful choice trees to exist in a class based game you would need to piecemeal out all the powers the class gets and realistically give 2 to 3 times the number of options than you have choice opportunities. If you are building that level of choice into a class then you might as well pull back to the architype level of Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Arcane. Even from there Paladins and Dread lords are Warrior-Arcane or warrior-Priest and rangers are Rogue-Priests and Monks are Warrior-Rogue and Bards are Arcane-Priests ish. So if your are piecemealing one of those classes it needs to go all the way back to the no class system.
Again I don't see this fitting into Pantheon as its really not what has been pitched to its target audience and might be too big of a jump to swallow. Unlinked skills and level, maybe. Gear based on minimum skill to be 100% effective, maybe. Character level having minimal effect on character power compared to fully skill scaled gear, slim maybe. Build your own Wizard, not going to happen, if it did would it really still be Pantheon?
*edit* Going to use this instead. *edit*
What if Skills were not tied to level and effectively uncapped but realistically cappedish but increase at a rate equivalent to an entire level rather than semi auto. Break through events/quests are required at certain points which will operate as a level/playerskill/gear check all including a difficult solo only mechanic.
All items had a skill tied their effectiveness. The Item would have a target skill rank appropriate for that items level. Then the items stats are modified by this formula:
100% * (1 + (Current Skill - Target Skill)/(Current skill+Target Skill))
This will basically make the item little better than nothing with only 1 skill rank and twice its original power with infinite skill ranks.
With this both the item and the character skill matter for power levels and lower level items can be used for significantly longer if its one that really fits making raid gear less important as the target skill level would be much higher on raid gear.
philo said:What? No I don't think gear should be one of a kind anymore than skills/abilities should be one of a kind? Not sure where that came from?
It came from right here...
philo said:If we understand why that ^ is, why the main focus is on gear, then we understand that gear is one of the few things that differentiates one character from another.
The only way for what you say here to be true is if some items are one of a kind. Otherwise given time all characters could have all of it.
If base stats were only capped by level (not given) it's entirely possible one warrior could get to lvl50 with the same STR, AC, HP as another when geared, but on the corpse run they could be quite different.
Of corse all would strive to be everything, but many would choose to fast track to lvl50 and bypass a STR point here or a HP there planning to ONLY ever use 2HS to go for the level 50 and make up for it with gear.
Add in more stats than the normal STR, HP, AC such as Balance, Cunning, Strategy, Aggression, etc, etc. And have levels raise the cap on these but not simply give them. Your going to have Warriors at level 50 with all types of "builds". They would need a means of going back and regaining skipped points, but maybe that wouldn't come until the next expansion or a progeny.