While there are lots of great ideas in this thread, I'm wondering if one of the core aspects of horizontal progression isn't as simple as just making the players do more for their advancements?
You don't have to shake up the levelling system, mess with class balance, add skill trees or even have an AA system. Take away the automatic nature of what EQ did with skills like swimming or sense heading. Tie advancement in those areas to something that can't be accomplished with a button smash. Here are some specific examples.
Direction finding should be tied to your skill as a cartographer or an explorer. The more of the world you have explored/discovered with your character, the better you should be at reliably heading out in the right direction. If you are using /follow, it should turn off any ability for your character to gain experience through exploration. No points for back seat drivers.
Swimming could be handled in a similar fashion. The more areas you have explored underwater, the more your swimming skill improves.
Crafting skills shouldn't advance appreciably if all you do is make the same clay pot 417 times. You should be required to make an assortment of items. Real mastery would only come if you also study crafting from different cultures. You need breadth of experience to become a true artisan.
Melee skills should be initially given through quests where your current skill (as both a player and your character) are tested. Defensive skills should only be advanced when you're directly under attack. Offensive skills should only advance when using the right weapon against a sufficiently sophisticated opponent. Merely swinging your sword 200 times shouldn't make you better at riposte. Hopefully, riposte will be something you use situationally in response to an attack by the opponent. If you are AFK on auto attack, your skills shouldn't be increasing.
Caster skills should also require quests and tests of skill to acquire. Unlike melee skills, even in EQ, a caster would only level a particular ability through casting the right class of spell. With the coloured mana system in Pantheon, this may have additional complications, but like the melee, it should require a conscious act to improve your skill.
Perception or other abilities unique to Pantheon will hopefully follow suit and require active participation on the part of the player in order to improve.
The bottom line is don't hand out abilities simply as a reward for reaching level milestones or time played. Make us work for them and make the quests to acquire them also a test of our readiness to gain power.
No advancement in any area if there isn't a bum in the chair and not if that bum watching Netflix while playing Pantheon. Learning a skill requires an attentive player.
What defines a better character? Is it the gear, abilities or how he made his character interact with the world. My definition of a better character isn't really more abilities, because those are there for each class, or stats, because their will always be a BiS for any type of build, or AA's, unless restricted, but to me I think a better character has to do more inline with the world itself. Whether you took the time to craft, or get faction to do something. Basically achieving and gaining things that other characters can't because they blew through the levels and have to go back and do stuff that won't give them exp anymore just to get access to certain places, or a certain item, or ability...etc.
If I could choose between a character with all epic gear, or a character that has access to certain places that he could take me in because of a certain status or w.e, I would choose the latter because that character to me seems to have more time spent and tuning spent on going through the world.
Anyways, I think peopl are looking at stats, gear, and abilities too much and should look at something else, like factions or class specific areas that you need someones help to get in..or w/e.
I love a lot of the ideas everyoneis throwing out there. It made me rethink what I asked and really view it from many diffrent sides. I am excited to find out how they approach this when the game is live.
I would love having to choose say 1hslash vs 1hblunt at say lvl 10. Now I have to do a quest to unlock the skill I pick and once I am deemed worth my class trainer or mentor teaches me this skill. Now I would have the option to learn 1hblunt at a later level, but having to pick one until my combat skills are good enough that I can handle learning a 2nd, 3rd or 4th weapon skill. This would feel more real to me. If I set out and start combat training, I wouldnt pick 3 or 4 diffrent weapons to train with, but as I mastered one I would be able to move on to another, and the second skill would level up faster since my combat skills are improving aleady.
I also was a huge fan of AA's but it was due to the fact it was new, and it did what they intended, it gave me something else to do so even as a quick fix it worked. Now reading how you guys express skills being learned and going along the same line as weapon skills, I think having to actually do certian actions to increase certian skills or learn them is an awesome idea. If when i hit max level my goals are not lets get the new gear, but lets finish my training with such and such. Maybe I have to work on 1hslash becuase the weapon I want has a skill level required that I have not yet mastered. Now could I get the weapon and use it? Of course, but say like a level 10 using it my skills would not allow me to porperly weild it.
Good ideas here I love it. Thank you all it has opened my eyes to new ideas and made me excited.
I dislike saying "EQ was this way so Pantheon should be this way too!" but I do feel like older mmos did prove that people can enjoy getting good gear for the sake of getting good, recognizable gear, even if the stats don't help much. Mages in EQ were somewhat notorious for not really needing extra gear beyond some extra HPs to help with occasional aoe-ing raid bosses, but still many mages took the time to get good gear anyways. If getting the gear seems fun and worthy of showing off, many people probably won't mind exactly how much it multiplies their character's actual power.
Thus I think we should focus on making characters stronger and gear just a sort of icing on the cake. Naturally making characters stronger can include perks like AAs, quest reward perma-boosts, or other things along those lines.
Drayian said:I would love having to choose say 1hslash vs 1hblunt at say lvl 10. Now I have to do a quest to unlock the skill I pick and once I am deemed worth my class trainer or mentor teaches me this skill. Now I would have the option to learn 1hblunt at a later level, but having to pick one until my combat skills are good enough that I can handle learning a 2nd, 3rd or 4th weapon skill. This would feel more real to me.
How would you feel if you had to choose 1 at the exclusion of the other and weren't just waiting until later to choose the other? Maybe of the 4 weapon skills you mention you had the option to choose 2 or 3 of them and could never train the other 1 or 2?
Given enough of these ^ types of choices, your characters build becomes unique and the choices you made in building your character really matter imho. Otherwise, in the long run, everyone ends up the same. They just took different paths to get there.
I would be all for an either or choice, but as said by Watemper being able to make an informed decision based on very little knowledge could penalize someone. Now allow a say wipe of mind potion or an NPC you pay to do the ritual that allows you to pick your path anew, but having your skill lvl start at 1. Id be for that.
Im going to throw a little curve ball and shift direction a bit and ask about a "Right of Passage" for each race and/or class. Say at level 20 in EQ you were allowed to set a surname. What if say at lvl 35 as a Dark Myr you had the chance to take part in a ritual that allowed you to view first hand the day they killed thier Pantheon. Something that has great meaning to your race and growth within it. Then maybe add a new racial skill that unlocks once thisis done. Also tie in class related "Right of Passage" which had you working for say a monk learning FD by training with certian Masters.
Could we tie this into Char progressions that unlock avenues that allows for more char growth/progression and personalization?
Zorkon said:Watemper said:Yea, I would be fine with that. I would just rather not be stuck with a dumb mistake in the past because the game was new.
So could Progeny sufficiently work for a reset?
Sure. With progeny you would start completely fresh (except a minor perk) anyway. I'm unsure if that would be an acceptable option for some people but it would be another decision that a player would have to make with definite consequences...if progeny was the only option to reset.
Re-specing in some form usually ends up being an option. I'd prefer it be limited. It removes a lot of the benefit to these type of choices if you just let people redo their decisions so that they can become what is considered "best" at the time. You end up with everyone being the "flavor of the month" character build with little variation.
That's ^ exactly what these type of choices are supposed to minimize.
Making it so everyone is not what is considered "optimal" is a good thing imho.
I miss the gold old days where "either/or" was determined by what you accomplished in the game. You either put in the hard work to acquire rare gear/abilities or you didn't have them. Players making either/or ability choices at levels 10/20/30/40/50 (or whatever other formula you want to use) is exactly what leads to flavor of the month builds. One choice is usually ideal for the majority of the content ... and there you have it, FOTM wrapped up in a bow. The player who wants to be "different" is criticized for not taking the "best" permanent choice and may end up having a hard time finding a group because of it. They thought it would be cool to take an ability that would help them in a specific dungeon, or help them solo, but later realize they aren't viable for raids. I'd rather see a large world full of meaningful progression opportunities that players can dedicate themselves toward unlocking. If it's only "a matter of time" before everybody ends up being the same, the game is too easy or the progression isn't nearly broud enough. That hasn't been a problem in any of my favorite MMO's.
oneADseven said:I miss the gold old days where "either/or" was determined by what you accomplished in the game. You either put in the hard work to acquire rare gear/abilities or you didn't have them. Players making either/or ability choices at levels 10/20/30/40/50 (or whatever other formula you want to use) is exactly what leads to flavor of the month builds. One choice is usually ideal for the majority of the content ... and there you have it, FOTM wrapped up in a bow. The player who wants to be "different" is criticized for not taking the "best" permanent choice and may end up having a hard time finding a group because of it. They thought it would be cool to take an ability that would help them in a specific dungeon, or help them solo, but later realize they aren't viable for raids. I'd rather see a large world full of meaningful progression opportunities that players can dedicate themselves toward unlocking. If it's only "a matter of time" before everybody ends up being the same, the game is too easy. That hasn't been a problem in any of my favorite MMO's.
You seem to be confused 187. Even in the "old days" everything was attainable given enough time. Many consider early Eq the difficulty standard. Even then, given enough time, you would max out all the skills/abilities, attain all the spells etc. Maybe not first, or right away...but inevitably.
I would want there to be many more choices than you are alluding to.
You can say "One choice is usually ideal for the majority of the content ... and there you have it, FOTM"but that isn't correct.
If you have faith in VR to balance the choices it won't be so clear cut that "one choice is usually ideal for the majority of content" . That is not an accurate statement unless the choices are implemented poorly.
Not to mention, compared to the alternative...which is no choices where everyone has the option to attain everything, having choices differentiates characters by making them unique and gives the player the power to build their character how they prefer. Whether they make choices that others consider good or bad is opinion...better that the player can choose for themself.
I'd rather see a large world full of meaningful progression opportunities that players can dedicate themselves toward unlocking. If it's only "a matter of time" before everybody ends up being the same, the game is too easy.
A game like that wouldn't survive. In order to have a game like you are descibing it has to be so difficult people can't advance. Granted, in EQ there were some people who struggled to advance because of the penalties...but they were the exception, not the norm. For discussions sake we have to assume we are talking about competent players. Even in EQ, given enough time, a player would cap all of their abilities/spells/skills etc. Of course it may take years, but we are talking about the big picture, long term.
Why choose EPIC gear or Epic Character. Why not both? Just like most of the epics were in EQ1. Make them fun, take time and challenging. I always thought it would be cool if you epic was somewhat unique. maybe based on how you completed your epic it would have different stats or powers.
Maybe for epic character you could choose a skill to "EPICIZE" I am sure that most folks would choose a primary offence or defensive skill, but some may choose fletching, blacksmithing or maybe fishing. All there items they create or fished could be blessed/ have a special bonus + a few AC or Dam.
It's just a matter of flavour isn't it? You're either grinding/questing for abilities or for gear, both of which make you more powerful. Some people prefer shinies and some people prefer a new toolbar button?
The difference is *why* you might be doing it? When VR bring out an expansion and add 10 levels and a raid do you now: -
1) Have to obtain the latest raid gear or you won't be competitive?
2) Have to obtain the latest class addition or specialisation skills or you won't be competitive?
3) Both
For me it was always the fact that you HAD to go on the latest grind and all of your old awesome gear was suddenly obselete or your old skills were inadequate that was unpleasant, BUT what other way is there to keep you playing and keep rewarding you?
Should expansions at some point just offer horizontal progression? More to see and do, but no need for more 'power'? I don't think people would want that either.
I guess the answer, as with many things, is VR are going to have a hell of a job because they need to do it all and balance it carefully.
In this example, they need to have new gear, new abilities and new factions but new areas and raids that aren't 100% gated by that new gear/abilities/factions? Or maybe do it so that you don't *feel* like your previous 'epic' tier gear/abilities have turned to poop? Make it so you can either get the new stuff or upgrade the old?
My short answer to the OP is "both plus other stuff" hehe. Good luck VR!
disposalist said:It's just a matter of flavour isn't it?
Should expansions at some point just offer horizontal progression? More to see and do, but no need for more 'power'? I don't think people would want that either.
I agree, this is mostly a stylistic thing. I think what is most important is that the system is origional and broad in nature, not a linear grind like most games. Loot will inevitably play a large role, and that is totally fine and expected, but so should other modes of progression.
As far as horizontal-only expansions, I don't think we can say whether people would like it or not. To my knowledge it has not been done before, so again it really just depends on how creative VR can be.
Xbachs said:*snip*
As far as horizontal-only expansions, I don't think we can say whether people would like it or not. To my knowledge it has not been done before, so again it really just depends on how creative VR can be.
The only example I can think of for horizontal-only expansions came from DDO. They would occasionally produce new adventure sets at various levels in addition to increasing the level cap. Many of the horizontal expansions did contribute to mudflation but they also filled in content gaps and play style gaps. The main reason that the horizontal content worked though was because your account gained a form of progression for each character/life that completed content. This feature also fueled the rebirth system too.
zendrel said: AA is a trap. Don't fall for the AA trap Pantheon.
AA points were added to EQ1 in the...10th-ish expansion? Planes of Power if I remember correctly. And there is no doubt that AA's were just another grind / time sink to keep max level players busy. You don't have to worry about AA being an issue - at least not right away. If VR does bring in an AA type system eventually you can bet it will be a huge improvement over EQ's AA system.
Many of the comments about AA type systems, especially the negative comments, are based on an assumption that may be correct but, then again, may NOT be correct.
The assumption is that the system kicks in at maximum level and therefore makes level-cap characters more powerful.
A system for customization can just as well be progressive. Let's ignore subclass systems which tradtitionally do operate at relatively low levels. There is no reason why a character can't get customization points every level or every 5 levels and spend them on whatever skills, abilities or even attributes the player chooses. This is actually quite traditional in the CRPG world although MMOs have moved away from it for no particularly good reason.
Of considerable importance to the above debate - a gradual customization system as distinct from a level-cap system allows content to be created with the "extra" abilities in mind and so the customization does NOT make characters more powerful than the developers had expected when they designed the content.
disposalist said:Should expansions at some point just offer horizontal progression? More to see and do, but no need for more 'power'? I don't think people would want that either.
I'm not so sure this wouldent work. Oh of course there would be some that would hate it. Your never going to make everybody happy. But this would work very well with a Progeny system. One of the problems most claim against Progeny is not wanting to do the same content over. New races, new lands, new character attributes is not the same thing over. It would also boost the game Tennant "Content is King"
Personally, I'd be totally happy with expansions *not* being the usual 10 more levels with accompanying power increases (in character and/or gear).
If expensions were more variety at *all* levels, new races, new storylines, new factions, new classes and/or specialisations, new cities, etc. I'd be delighted.
Surely that kind of horizontal progression wouldn't 'break' the game like the constant power ramping seems to do in 'normal' MMORPG lifetimes?
I know some folks desire the continual search for greater power, - I do to a certain extent - but starting new alts or taking my max level characters to new places just to experience them would be cool with me and if it was more 'healthy' for the longevity of the game, I'd be fine with it.
I would consider expansion like LDoN and LoY from EQ horizontal expansions. No lvl increase, no new high end content/raids...but there was new content, much of it aimed at mid levels. Frogloks were introduced as a new playable race.
People often pass over those expansions when recalling EQ expansions and don't give them a second thought. I did spend time in LoY soloing. I enjoyed that expansion but I don't think it was ever heavily used...even on release it was usually a ghost town. People wanted to stay where they could get better loot I guess.