I am starting a thread for everyone’s thoughts on class trainers…. Here is what thoughts that I have had thus far. Given that we only know a partial layout of one of the cities (Thronefast) I am going to base my thoughts on what little we know. Feel free to come up with alternate ideas or expansions of what I have below.
Cleric – The base level skills should be taught at any “holy center” or “church”, like the one that is shown in the ‘Making of a City video. More advanced spells would have to be taught from the main “temple” somewhere farther back in the city; some giant, majestic temple. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that come from “outland” trainers and mob drops.
Paladin – Since these guys are basically a hybrid of Cleric and Warrior, they have to go to both the Cleric and Warrior trainers for both their lower-level and higher level skills.
Warrior – The base level skills should be taught at the “training center” just inside the city gates, as outlined in the ‘Making of’ video. More advanced kills would be taught at one or more advanced training schools farther back in the city. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced skills that come from outland trainers.
Dire Lord – The base level skills should be taught in a “wizard tower” deep within the city. More advanced spells would have to be taught in a “wizard tower” (think Tower of the Reckless Magician type) outside of town due to the “damage” that could be caused by failure. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Ranger – Since these guys are basically a hybrid of Druid and Warrior, they have to go to both the Druid and Warrior trainers for both their lower-level and higher level skills.
Rogue – The base level skills should be taught by a trainer in a seedier section of town who hangs out at a tavern or inn. More advanced skills would have to be taught by trainers in hidden areas of the city. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced skills that come from “outland” trainers.
Monk – The base level skills should be taught by a trainer in a monk temple in town. More advanced skills would have to be taught by trainers in a larger, more ornate monk temple outside of town. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced skills that come from “outland” trainers.
Summoner – The base level skills should be taught in a “wizard tower” deep within the city. More advanced spells would have to be taught in a “wizard tower” (think Tower of the Reckless Magician type) outside of town due to the “damage” that could be caused by failure. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Enchanter – The base level skills should be taught in a “wizard tower” deep within the city. More advanced spells would have to be taught in a “wizard tower” (think Tower of the Reckless Magician type) outside of town due to the “damage” that could be caused by failure. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Wizard – The base level skills should be taught in a “wizard tower” deep within the city. More advanced spells would have to be taught in a “wizard tower” (think Tower of the Reckless Magician type) outside of town due to the “damage” that could be caused by failure. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Druid – All skills should be trained by trainers outside of town as their skills are “nature related skills”. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Shaman – All skills should be trained by trainers outside of town as their skills are “nature related skills”. Maybe there could be some “one off” super advanced spells that could come from “outland trainers” and mob drops.
Maybe there could be some facility that if someone had a particular skill, or skills, max’ed out, they could train someone x number of levels lower than them in the “base level” of that skill. So, for instance, if a Rogue had Disarm Traps maxed out for level 20, he could train someone up to the basic level of Disarm Traps for someone up to level 10.
Thoughts?
While I agree that base skills should be learned at your guildmaster, I disagree with some of your specifics. Where some class trainers reside should depend upon the race, not necessarily the class. It isn't necessary that Druid/Shaman trainers be outside whatever city of that race if the city itself has a more natural focused design to it. Elves might very well within in nature, ala Kelethin, so the Druid trainer could be right there in town. Speaking on behalf of the Shaman, it is less nature based than ancestral based and that doesn't necessarily equate to needing to be outside the city.
Higher level skills could very well be found back in your home city. After all the need to return to your starting city is a recurring point VR has mentioned multiple times. Some skills/abilities/spells should be found out in the wild, other can be found in other cities and the rest can be found within your own racial city.
Vandraad said:While I agree that base skills should be learned at your guildmaster, I disagree with some of your specifics. Where some class trainers reside should depend upon the race, not necessarily the class. It isn't necessary that Druid/Shaman trainers be outside whatever city of that race if the city itself has a more natural focused design to it. Elves might very well within in nature, ala Kelethin, so the Druid trainer could be right there in town. Speaking on behalf of the Shaman, it is less nature based than ancestral based and that doesn't necessarily equate to needing to be outside the city.
Higher level skills could very well be found back in your home city. After all the need to return to your starting city is a recurring point VR has mentioned multiple times. Some skills/abilities/spells should be found out in the wild, other can be found in other cities and the rest can be found within your own racial city.
I definitely agree that races that "live amongst nature" shouldn't have to go out into the woods so to speak I was using Thronefast as a point of reference because it's the only city that we've seen
As a starting point I can't disagree with everything posted Kalok, but I feel like as gameplay gets more advanced, learning new skills/spells should not be as simple as "go see your trainer and do whatever they ask". Instead, each class should have a different way to lean those really advanced spells and skills. Here's a few suggestions, just to start:
Rogues might learn new skills from shady black market types by undertaking quests to acquire something insanely valuable (in the local region). Sometimes, it's a thing you get from a dungeon. Other times.... it's the jeweled circlet that your own faction's princess is wearing. Want that skill? Hope you're prepared to do what must be done...
Paladins might learn new skills by freeing ancient fortresses from the grasp of the Ravaging Lord and his minions, and establishing bastions against evil and darkness across the lands of Terminus.
Clerics might learn new skills by recovering holy relics and returning them to their center of worship.
Warriors might learn new skills by overcoming bloody gladiatorial challenges in arenas across the land.
See where I'm going here? I say, give each class a semi-unique type of "content" for their most advanced skills, similar in depth and complexity to things like epic/legendary weapons, rather than just have some dude sitting in a class-appropriate themed area handing them out to anyone who shows up with the cash and the requisite 50 wraith kills.
Nephele said:As a starting point I can't disagree with everything posted Kalok, but I feel like as gameplay gets more advanced, learning new skills/spells should not be as simple as "go see your trainer and do whatever they ask". Instead, each class should have a different way to lean those really advanced spells and skills. Here's a few suggestions, just to start:
Rogues might learn new skills from shady black market types by undertaking quests to acquire something insanely valuable (in the local region). Sometimes, it's a thing you get from a dungeon. Other times.... it's the jeweled circlet that your own faction's princess is wearing. Want that skill? Hope you're prepared to do what must be done...
Paladins might learn new skills by freeing ancient fortresses from the grasp of the Ravaging Lord and his minions, and establishing bastions against evil and darkness across the lands of Terminus.
Clerics might learn new skills by recovering holy relics and returning them to their center of worship.
Warriors might learn new skills by overcoming bloody gladiatorial challenges in arenas across the land.
See where I'm going here? I say, give each class a semi-unique type of "content" for their most advanced skills, similar in depth and complexity to things like epic/legendary weapons, rather than just have some dude sitting in a class-appropriate themed area handing them out to anyone who shows up with the cash and the requisite 50 wraith kills.
Yeah. I can agree with all of this. That was sort of the point about the more advanced skills being found at an "outland trainer" sort of thing.
Vandraad said:While I agree that base skills should be learned at your guildmaster, I disagree with some of your specifics. Where some class trainers reside should depend upon the race, not necessarily the class. It isn't necessary that Druid/Shaman trainers be outside whatever city of that race if the city itself has a more natural focused design to it. Elves might very well within in nature, ala Kelethin, so the Druid trainer could be right there in town. Speaking on behalf of the Shaman, it is less nature based than ancestral based and that doesn't necessarily equate to needing to be outside the city.
Higher level skills could very well be found back in your home city. After all the need to return to your starting city is a recurring point VR has mentioned multiple times. Some skills/abilities/spells should be found out in the wild, other can be found in other cities and the rest can be found within your own racial city.
Maybe some specifics could be tweaked, but I agree with OP that this level of thought should go into making decisions like this. This is a good thread.
bigdogchris said:Maybe some specifics could be tweaked, but I agree with OP that this level of thought should go into making decisions like this. This is a good thread.
Indeed. And having a racial flavor on things makes it even better. Where one race may choose to have their Warrior guildhouse placed, and how it appears, what is in it, etc should make sense for that race. They key point is that going back to your guildhouse should be necessary at various times throughout your levels.
I would love having quests involved too as in EQ2 way back when. Not for everything, to be sure, and let us have early levels fairly simple for the benefit of folks checking the game out (OK you can see what your level 2 abilities do after you travel across the world and spend 3 hours doing what I ask is not the way to keep new players though I wouldn't mind in the slightest).
One thing I used to like in LOTRO was that it had quests to unlock new levels of crafting. Quests that actually related to your craft not "kill 10 orcs". This thread is about trainers and trainers are relevant to crafting as well. Much as EQ2 had to unlock new subclasses and subsubclasses.
I picture rogue guild masters being kind of like mob bosses. You want to speak to them? you need to earn your way past the door first. No one gets to walk in to the lair and talk to the boss off the street.
@Restof - I see clerics as more of people who try to spread light to the dark places. Not as being a class of deceit. You make them sound more like rogues. Maybe we just have a difference in how we want our fantasy healers to be...?
Retsof said:Cleric skills obtained by reaching donation quotas. The Cleric uses the right guilt, storytelling, and lies (found in religion tab) to con people from their money. With enough money Cleric gets promoted with more abilities, like starting holy wars.
Haha, it's a high fantasy game, shouldn't be like RL
-Fara
Nuggie said:I picture rogue guild masters being kind of like mob bosses. You want to speak to them? you need to earn your way past the door first. No one gets to walk in to the lair and talk to the boss off the street.
@Restof - I see clerics as more of people who try to spread light to the dark places. Not as being a class of deceit. You make them sound more like rogues. Maybe we just have a difference in how we want our fantasy healers to be...?
I don't necessarily disagrree with this for higher level skills training. However, there hs to be some sort of base Rogue skill training that you can get prior to this for the lower levels.
What Nuggie said about rogue trainers can be done for all classes - obviously in different ways. Having to do quests or something that resembles quests to see a trainer is at least as good an idea as having the trainer give quests and maybe better.
In a game with rapid leveling any major barrier would be more of a problem. Having to wait 3 hours to see the trainer means you would stay level 20 *forever* when you could already be level 55!!!
In a slower and more deliberate game, three hours would perhaps get you to 20.4 so not a big deal at all.
Trying to remember - it may have been Might and Magic VI where a rogue trainer was hiding deep in a dungeon and you needed to prove your worth before he would train you and you could move up to the next tier of rogue skills.
Faranor said:Retsof said:Cleric skills obtained by reaching donation quotas. The Cleric uses the right guilt, storytelling, and lies (found in religion tab) to con people from their money. With enough money Cleric gets promoted with more abilities, like starting holy wars.
Haha, it's a high fantasy game, shouldn't be like RL
-Fara
You're right. I'll try to be more optimistic lol. Serious note though, I think Ranger trainers should be in outposts. When I think Ranger, I think Game of Thrones on the wall.
Truely hoping we don't "auto update" with our next level of skills or abilities. Once we level, we HAVE to go to our trainer and learn the next spells or abilities.
Also hoping they (spells or abilities) are No-Trade and that you can't pre-purchase skills/abilities of levels you don't have.
AND - I'm hoping some abilities have a minimum requirement to use. Kick II requires you to be proficient at Kick (25) or something like that. You can use Kick II, but you'll fizzle a lot. Err, I guess miss a lot with it.
Kittik said:Truely hoping we don't "auto update" with our next level of skills or abilities. Once we level, we HAVE to go to our trainer and learn the next spells or abilities.
Also hoping they (spells or abilities) are No-Trade and that you can't pre-purchase skills/abilities of levels you don't have.
AND - I'm hoping some abilities have a minimum requirement to use. Kick II requires you to be proficient at Kick (25) or something like that. You can use Kick II, but you'll fizzle a lot. Err, I guess miss a lot with it.
I hope we can buy them in advance. Being forced to visit your trainer every time you level would be terrible for lots of reasons.
Join a group, every 5 minutes someone has to waste 30 minutes of the group's time gating/porting so they can train. Nothx.
I agree with Liav that I don't want to have to run to town every time I level.
In spite of that, I do think there's room for major quests every few levels to gain new skills/abilities. Since Pantheon isn't supposed to be a race to max level, making these quests non-trivial seems to be the way to go. I'm very much in agreement that auto-skillup with dingage is too much of a spoon fed mechanic. I'm OK with incremental skillups with leveling, but anything that is a new ability should have to be quested for. I don't want a new ability because I hit level 8, I want a new ability because I researched, traveled, quested, tested...
Celandor said:I agree with Liav that I don't want to have to run to town every time I level.
In spite of that, I do think there's room for major quests every few levels to gain new skills/abilities. Since Pantheon isn't supposed to be a race to max level, making these quests non-trivial seems to be the way to go. I'm very much in agreement that auto-skillup with dingage is too much of a spoon fed mechanic. I'm OK with incremental skillups with leveling, but anything that is a new ability should have to be quested for. I don't want a new ability because I hit level 8, I want a new ability because I researched, traveled, quested, tested...
Depends on your definition of "questing" for them. If by questing for them, you mean going tomewhere ot train them, I can support that. But if you mean some long convoluted quest for each and every "major" skill/spell, I can't get behind that. With that being said, I think there are some specialized skills/spells that maybe should have a long convoluted quest. More uncommon ones.
I think a variation would be good. IE Certain basic type spell/ability might auto upgrade like said kick if you had the skill up to level. A brand new Class defining Spell would be a new quest say like a druid learning a spell to control the weather in a certian area to help lower (not remove) the effects of a enviornment. Then a warrior needs to run back to the trainer to lean the new skill, Whirlwind.
I feel like placement of trainers is something that will/should be unique to each race. I don't think all rouges should follow the same trope of shady/seedy locations and indeed some should be right out in the open, just another guild/group teaching the arts. Just because they teach things like stealth, poison craft, and intrigue doesn't mean cities should see them in a darker light than any other guild since most of the guilds are literally also teaching members how to kill things in their own various ways.
I'd hope trainers aren't really used to learn abilities beyond limited early few but instead for training the basics of skills when the level is reached like dual wield, double attack, bash, etc. I think abilities should mostly come from vendors like in EQ with others of course coming from drops/research/quests/hidden away hermits in the depths of dungeons. I enjoyed being able to load up on my next tier of spells before heading out for leveling or otherwise making a long journey far from areas with a guild for my class. I think melee should likewise by scrolls/manuals as even in the history of the real world combat techniques have been written about and illustrated in immense technical treatises and books for many centuries.