Kasekil said:I'm a supporter of staring in a small village, or camp, a bit away from the city. It would be nice to learn a few of the basics, work our way up to level 5, explore a bit and then you see a huge city entrance. I think that would be a nice wow moment for any player.
Not a big fan of the 'I should feel like a hero from level 1' idea. I think I first heard of this when the Warhammer MMO was in development and people were all about that, but its just not a good concept to build around. Being a hero is something you should have to earn In an MMORPG.
I think it will end up a bit dependent on what class you are. I think you find it much more likely to start out somewhere else than within or nearby the race city as something like a Ranger or a Druid, than a Warrior or Paladin - who typically is the bulk of the local guard/military. Personally I would like to avoid the noob camps that WoW had where you start of at some remote area where everyone does the same generic quests, and rather have the "tutorial" to me more tailor made to your class and role.
For example, as an Enchanter you could be tasked with mezmerizing the local town drunkard, while you manipulate his booze to be less harmful or create a placebo effect.
"Old Tom's at it again, making his own booze down at the abandoned mill, I swear the old geezer is gonna off himself the way he drinks himself to stupor every night. Would you be so kind to put this mixture in his brew, so we can keep the old man around for a few more years? Make sure he doesn't notice you, even as a novice Enchanter you should be able to control his feeble mind."
As a Rogue you could be tasked with the same task, only instead of controlling his mind, you sneak past him unnoticed. Just small things like that as an introduction to make it clear what role your class plays in this world. It should become obvious to anyone who isn't familiar with the terminology of Pantheon what is expected of them, and how they generally approach the environment pretty early on.
Menubrea said:For example, as an Enchanter you could be tasked with mezmerizing the local town drunkard, while you manipulate his booze to be less harmful or create a placebo effect.
"Old Tom's at it again, making his own booze down at the abandoned mill, I swear the old geezer is gonna off himself the way he drinks himself to stupor every night. Would you be so kind to put this mixture in his brew, so we can keep the old man around for a few more years? Make sure he doesn't notice you, even as a novice Enchanter you should be able to control his feeble mind."
As a Rogue you could be tasked with the same task, only instead of controlling his mind, you sneak past him unnoticed. Just small things like that as an introduction to make it clear what role your class plays in this world. It should become obvious to anyone who isn't familiar with the terminology of Pantheon what is expected of them, and how they generally approach the environment pretty early on.
Thats a really pretty cool idea. More games should do this rather than the, "oh, youre alive, lets throw you in the mix with everyone else and you all do the exact same quests, we'll just encrease the spawn rate to make it work" bs.
But, it's a great idea to show how your class is supposed to be utilized early in the game so people know their roles. I know some people late in EQ2 were upset that enchanters couldn't dps as well as wizards. Yeah, no kidding, you mez, they nuke, what don't you get?
It's not so much were we start, I guess I'm just focused on that because it's a big part of the role playing aspect of an rpg, which is what this is.
So maybe in tandem with character creation is our choice of where we start and how.
At Character Creation Scree: You choose all the attributes of your race, then your class and finally after you apply a name you choose:
Warrior from a predominate family - you spawn in the warrior training hall.
Warrior from a peasants farm - you spawn at the farm just outside the city.
Warrior from an orphanage - you spawn at the back of the brothel in town, or the village.
Warrior from a group of traveling gypsies - you spawn alone at a camp a few meters off the road.
This type of choice in Character Creation could lead to early Factions for your character. If you're from the predominate family, the merchants like you, but the common folk don't. If you're from the peasant family, vise versa.
IDK, but this is what I'm trying to get at with the thread Where do we start. It's a huge aspect of RP'ing that is completely over looked during character creation (which is where it should happen), you get to choose who you are at the beginning. Even if there are only 5 options, and I choose one and so do 100 other people, at least I'm 1 of 100 instead of 1 of 500. It makes me a little more unique right out of the gate.a
MyNegation said:Warriors: start at the orphanage
Rogues: start in a jail cell
Clerics: start in a brothel
Wizards: start in detention.
I can understand the rogue's starting point, but the rest appear to be from bad childhood experiences?
I would think most mages start off as an apprentice and clerics acolytes. Starting them in detention and brothels seem to express a definite negative feeling towards the classes.
Kittik said:It's not so much were we start, I guess I'm just focused on that because it's a big part of the role playing aspect of an rpg, which is what this is.
So maybe in tandem with character creation is our choice of where we start and how.
At Character Creation Scree: You choose all the attributes of your race, then your class and finally after you apply a name you choose:
Warrior from a predominate family - you spawn in the warrior training hall.
Warrior from a peasants farm - you spawn at the farm just outside the city.
Warrior from an orphanage - you spawn at the back of the brothel in town, or the village.
Warrior from a group of traveling gypsies - you spawn alone at a camp a few meters off the road.
This type of choice in Character Creation could lead to early Factions for your character. If you're from the predominate family, the merchants like you, but the common folk don't. If you're from the peasant family, vise versa.
IDK, but this is what I'm trying to get at with the thread Where do we start. It's a huge aspect of RP'ing that is completely over looked during character creation (which is where it should happen), you get to choose who you are at the beginning. Even if there are only 5 options, and I choose one and so do 100 other people, at least I'm 1 of 100 instead of 1 of 500. It makes me a little more unique right out of the gate.a
I don't remember if it was ESO, Neverwinter or GW2, but I remember the character creator asked you for details, like were you from a noble family or an orphan, and other questions. Then, in the starter area, the quest was a little different and NPCs treated you differently, based on the background features you selected.
Jazznblues said:Bards: start with a hangover.
You wake up in a back alley somewhere, your memory of the previous night blank and your body complaining of violations various and sundry. Your aching head demands your attention with the staccato beat of a hangover. The rhythm in which it throbs tells you that you must have had a good time last night, provided the other hurts don't mean you got into a fight.
The bar 'wench', a burly woman who wouldn't take kindly to being called anything other than 'ma'am', only makes the pain worse when she throws open the back door and clangs a trashcan down the steps to the midden you only just this moment notice sitting in a stinking heap five steps away. "Oi," she says, shoving your leg aside. "Move along. Pub's closed 'til this evening."
That midden is really starting to smell and she really couldn't care less if you're getting hit with half-gnawed chicken bones, so you scrape yourself off the ground and limp in the direction of the music hall, where you were scheduled to meet with the loremaster to start your lessons. The exercise clears your head a bit and memories start to flood back. You find yourself breaking out into a grin in recollection: oh yeah, you had a very good time last night.
sorn said:Jazznblues said:Bards: start with a hangover.
You wake up in a back alley somewhere, your memory of the previous night blank and your body complaining of violations various and sundry. Your aching head demands your attention with the staccato beat of a hangover. The rhythm in which it throbs tells you that you must have had a good time last night, provided the other hurts don't mean you got into a fight.
The bar 'wench', a burly woman who wouldn't take kindly to being called anything other than 'ma'am', only makes the pain worse when she throws open the back door and clangs a trashcan down the steps to the midden you only just this moment notice sitting in a stinking heap five steps away. "Oi," she says, shoving your leg aside. "Move along. Pub's closed 'til this evening."
That midden is really starting to smell and she really couldn't care less if you're getting hit with half-gnawed chicken bones, so you scrape yourself off the ground and limp in the direction of the music hall, where you were scheduled to meet with the loremaster to start your lessons. The exercise clears your head a bit and memories start to flood back. You find yourself breaking out into a grin in recollection: oh yeah, you had a very good time last night.
Love it mate. Many a Bard wakes up with a hangover, not that I am speaking from experience. Maybe I should hit the apothecary before the music hall, I have an.....itch.
Interesting thread Kittik. What if everybody started off as a non-class character, and it isn't until after you visit the warrior academy, wizard tower, or tavern that you select your class? I think this might actually help a little bit with character development ... if people could explore the town a little bit, learn the lay of the land and how the citizens interact before choosing their class. I always thought it was a little lame that you would just start off at level 1 and instantly start killing wildlife.
EQ2 had an interesting take where you could start off as a warrior, but it wasn't until level 20 that you would permanently pick your "real class" between guardian/berserker ... bards could choose between troubador/dirge, druids between warden/fury, etc. I like the idea of building a backstory but it shouldn't be 100% on rails ... let player choice be meaningful from the very beginning. If you only start off with a basic attack and racial ability, you aren't going to make it very far killing stuff.
I loved that mechanic way back in 2004 when EQ2 did that with class selection. However, thousands upon thousands of others hated it. Maybe forcing them to get to level 20 was the issues and back then, getting to level 20 wasn't as easy as buying a few collections to turn in. So not having you class abilities to kill and hunt made it ever harder.
I like this idea too. Once you are eligable to ding level 2, thats when you are prompted by the preception system to find a trainer. Because at level 1, everyone can carry a stick around. But honestly, I'd love more character development at the onset of our creation. It gives back story, depth and a great sense of ownship to that character.
The EQ2 approach of starting in your generic role then picking a class at 10 and a subclass at 20 was one I really missed when they did away with it. It doesn't have to be more difficult to level that way; there is no reason the lower level generic abilities can't be as powerful (at those levels) as the later speciailzed abilities.
dorotea said:The EQ2 approach of starting in your generic role then picking a class at 10 and a subclass at 20 was one I really missed when they did away with it. It doesn't have to be more difficult to level that way; there is no reason the lower level generic abilities can't be as powerful (at those levels) as the later speciailzed abilities.
I loved it too. I was a fan of it. The issue is, you'll turn a lot of people off to the game who just want to "get in an play". Honeslty thogh, if this is a RPG, then creating a character creation and evolution of the chacter shouldn't be an issue. But it is, there is still a bottom line in this game and paychecks will still need to be cut. You can't make an MMO for 1000 people, even claiming a niche, you still have to hope your "niche" will bring in 100,000 people.
I'm looking forward to playing around in the character creator, wonder if it will be like Vanguard, where at any time after character creation you can go back and change something you decided you didn't like after all. :) In Kingdoms of Amalur (an rpg) you start out in a heap of corpses (The Well of Souls, basically a reincarnation game) and have to escape from the castle..fight a troll before you can get out into "normal" areas. :)
Cana
oneADseven said:... more connection.
Bingo.
Remember the Biography in EQ2. No one ever used those after the first couple of year, because there really was no story telling anymore. The first couple of characters I made, I wrote a story about his journey, from 1-10, 10-20. That character progression was such a strong and engaging connection.
I'd be down with a branching system where you choose a role, then a class as you play. Or even just individualized tutorials that start you out at 0-level that accomplish the same thing.
One thing I loved about Vanguard was that not every race was "start out standing in front of town". My half-elf disciple started out as a soldier in the imperial army, in the middle of an operation to assault a monastery. My orc started out in the wreckage of his war barge. My high elf started out trying to rescue someone, if I recall (it's fuzzy). Either way, it made for some nice variety. You weren't just doing the same things in a new part of the world, you were going through a completely different set of first steps.
Nephele said:I'd be down with a branching system where you choose a role, then a class as you play. Or even just individualized tutorials that start you out at 0-level that accomplish the same thing.
The original EQ2 did this well. You chose a role, like fighter, mage, scout, or healer. Then at level 9, you chose a class. Then at 19, you chose a subclass.
BDO - Spawn point just down the road from the first town. Zero back story. Literally, just PooFed!! Not only fully geared, but wearing so pretty elaborate stuff. (It was appearance gear but still, my point is where did this come from...)
Shroud of the Avatar - I'm still wearing the same gear I started the game in, and I've played 220 hours. (Via Steam, I'm sure a lot of that time was afk) But they had a story line of how I came to be where I am and a little tutorial before zoning me into a world with others.
Wild Terra - As geared as you can get in that game. You can craft or find upgrades, but if not no biggie.
Rift - Walk out of the building in which I did character creation straight into a full blown war. Yep, geared up signicantly already and Yep, I was poofing right on top of other poofed characters. Crap gear, but still, where did it come from?! (I think my god gave it to me or something.)
EQ2 - Full set of gear. Looks like you could be placed at the front lines of the Lannister army. Made a brand new level 1 character 2 days ago. They at least do a good job of giving you an instanced beginner tutorial on a boat that gets attacked, after which you wake up on the dock of whatever starter city you're going to.
WoW - Didn't play WoW much, and the last time I even attempted to create a character was maybe a year ago. Poofed literally 10 feet away from a guy offering me a quest on the steps of a vary large libary or some sort of building. I was again, fairly decently equiped. It was a year ago, but I do not remember any story as to my poofing.
UO - Last time I played it, 9 months ago, not only do you now start AT THE BANK, you have gear to equip in your inventory.
Recent games that didn't gear me: Rust, Citidel: Forged With Fire,