Definitely not a fan of this idea. An item slot that is locked down for the entirety of a players leveling? An item that one only has to do the barest minimum of work for great power? Something that pretty much everyone has and participates in? No thank you.
And I very much doubt that if it were an augment that it would be the only one available. The FAQ alludes to there being a lot of customizations for items done by crafting:
"Crafting also goes hand-in-hand with dropped items by allowing players to customize their gear. Players can often bring items to a crafter to customize and tailor them to their specific needs. Since a customized item is meant specifically for your character the item will likely be bound (un-tradable) but this allows the crafter to squeeze out some additional power from a dropped item."
Iksar said:Definitely not a fan of this idea. An item slot that is locked down for the entirety of a players leveling? An item that one only has to do the barest minimum of work for great power? Something that pretty much everyone has and participates in? No thank you.
And I very much doubt that if it were an augment that it would be the only one available. The FAQ alludes to there being a lot of customizations for items done by crafting:
"Crafting also goes hand-in-hand with dropped items by allowing players to customize their gear. Players can often bring items to a crafter to customize and tailor them to their specific needs. Since a customized item is meant specifically for your character the item will likely be bound (un-tradable) but this allows the crafter to squeeze out some additional power from a dropped item."
Did you ever play the original EQ? Do you know the effort that went into obtaining your Epic Weapon? Barest minimum of work is a gross understatement. They didn't provide 'Great power' either.
Crafters customizing gear is *NOT* the same thing as what the Epic Weapons were about.
By the way.... the Epic Quests required you to be in the level 40s or 50s to even do, at the time the max was level 60, so you were already "end-game level" before you could get it. So it wasn't something you got at a low level and were over-powered for the remainder of the time.
Wandidar said:If it's your class defining weapon and it always gets better (with the assumption that it is always the best weapon you are going to get) then you will never equip anything else in your weapon slot - thus locking the slot down with your epic.
If weapons occasionally pass it by, but the next quest steps bring it back to prominence, then anything else you equip will only be a place holder for your epic until it is again your best weapon.
While I really want an epic quest line or three in the game... I don't want that happening with a gear slot.
There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding. Epic weapons were only the best weapon available...until they weren't...usually until the next expansion but it depends. The epic upgrade didn't come out for multiple expansions...a long time.
Most everyone who actually raided everyday replaced their epic at some point (some classes were lucky and could still use the clicky on their epic from inventory so it was still useful). I think the issue is more that you don't realize how long it was inbetween epic upgrades. It was a long time to the point that even the most casual raiders were replacing their epic.
philo said:Wandidar said:If it's your class defining weapon and it always gets better (with the assumption that it is always the best weapon you are going to get) then you will never equip anything else in your weapon slot - thus locking the slot down with your epic.
If weapons occasionally pass it by, but the next quest steps bring it back to prominence, then anything else you equip will only be a place holder for your epic until it is again your best weapon.
While I really want an epic quest line or three in the game... I don't want that happening with a gear slot.
There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding. Epic weapons were only the best weapon available...until they weren't...usually until the next expansion but it depends. The epic upgrade didn't come out for multiple expansions...a long time.
Most everyone who actually raided everyday replaced their epic at some point (some classes were lucky and could still use the clicky on their epic from inventory so it was still useful). I think the issue is more that you don't realize how long it was inbetween epic upgrades. It was a long time to the point that even the most casual raiders were replacing their epic.
I am fully aware. What I believe I see being suggested here (by some) is that the item will always progress and will always (or nearly always) be the best option once you have acquired it.
Wandidar said:philo said:Wandidar said:If it's your class defining weapon and it always gets better (with the assumption that it is always the best weapon you are going to get) then you will never equip anything else in your weapon slot - thus locking the slot down with your epic.
If weapons occasionally pass it by, but the next quest steps bring it back to prominence, then anything else you equip will only be a place holder for your epic until it is again your best weapon.
While I really want an epic quest line or three in the game... I don't want that happening with a gear slot.
There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding. Epic weapons were only the best weapon available...until they weren't...usually until the next expansion but it depends. The epic upgrade didn't come out for multiple expansions...a long time.
Most everyone who actually raided everyday replaced their epic at some point (some classes were lucky and could still use the clicky on their epic from inventory so it was still useful). I think the issue is more that you don't realize how long it was inbetween epic upgrades. It was a long time to the point that even the most casual raiders were replacing their epic.
I am fully aware. What I believe I see being suggested here (by some) is that the item will always progress and will always (or nearly always) be the best option once you have acquired it.
Nobody said it would always be the best option. What was said was that it's usefulness could be upgraded so that it's not something that you do once and then "throw away" because there are better options out there.
Epic weapons sure didn't ruin EQ before the later SoV drops eclipsed them in damage. For instance, I continued to use my Ragebringer, the Rogue Epic Weapon until I quit playing EQ, well into the PoP expansion.
EDIT: In addition,, with situational gear and weapons, I can almost guarantee that the Epic Weapon might not be the best weapon for the job. As an example, if the Rogue one is a piercer, it will do less damage against skellies than a club of similar stats would.
philo said:Nephele said:Question: If you only ever have one (and only one) augment at any one time, and you have to choose which piece of equipment it goes on, does that solve the problem with making items themselves "half usable"? I ask because that was a key point in the original idea - players only have ONE soulstone - they can move it around to new gear pieces (with difficulty), but they never have more then one.
I totally get your concern about being able to visually identify equipment, but I think that's a hot topic in its own right. There are just as many people who want visual uniqueness as there are people who want to be able to alter appearances for cosmetic purposes. Not sure who's going to win that argument, but either way...
Yes, that would solve most of my concern...but the thing is, why? If you are only making one augment per class, why not just make unique items instead? If you are only ever going to have one epic augment there is not a reason to implement it as an augment. Augments are usually instated into games to extend the life of a a lot of gear. It is easier and quicker to implement than creating a ton of unique items...but if you are only ever making 1 augment per class, there isn't much point. Just make the unique items instead. (that is restating the part about lazy design from my above post).
I am skeptical that it would work anyway. I don't think that having only 1 can happen over the long term. I can see it start out as one...but a couple years later that becomes an easy way to extend the life of gear. You can't set that precedent. I have seen it happen before. It is a slippery slope.
I commented on that briefly when I said: "It is a slippery slope. Pretty soon you have multiple augment slots on every item and when any item in the game drops it becomes only half usable without augments. I hate that underwhelming feeling. It ends up making me lose incentive to continue acquiring items. It has been part of the reason that drove me away from games in the past."
edit : Even if the reward was any one item from a selection of items from each slot that the player got to choose. That would be the same thing right? Except it is an actual item instead of an aug that is simply trying to extend the life of another item.
So, maybe my fault for the way I phrased the question - but the idea wasn't about "augments" in the sense that you're thinking of at all, which is why I asked. In the original idea, the key points (that pertain to this) were:
- Soulstones can be attached to weapons, shields, or chest armor pieces. You only ever get one Soulstone, so you have to choose where it goes.
- When you attach a Soulstone to an item, the items stats are overwritten and are now determined by the Soulstone. Soulstone items are more powerful than other items at the same level.
- To move a Soulstone to a new item, you have to go through a process that destroys the old item. You might also need to collect special materials to be able to transfer the Soulstone into the new item. However, this also means that you can transfer the Soulstone to a different type of item. For example, maybe it was in your sword before, but you want to put it in your bow this time around. Either way, you lose the old item, and the Soulstone ends up transferred to a new one where it can grow in power again.
Please don't get me wrong, I totally respect your opinion (and everyone else's) - it's just that several of the reactions I've seen, including yours, don't match up with what I had posted originally. That makes me think maybe I either didn't state things clearly enough up at the top, or that you're actually reacting to a different concept than what I described.
Kalok said:Did you ever play the original EQ? Do you know the effort that went into obtaining your Epic Weapon? Barest minimum of work is a gross understatement. They didn't provide 'Great power' either.
Crafters customizing gear is *NOT* the same thing as what the Epic Weapons were about.
I'm talking about the topic of this thread, this soulstone/item that grows with the character idea. My comment has nothing to do with EQ or traditional epic weapon quests.
I guess I don't understand your point Wandidar? If the epic is replaced by other items and we only get the option to upgrade it once every 5 expansions how is that locking down the slot? Doesn't locking down the slot with your epic by definition mean that it is locked in that slot and doesn't get replaced? When I quit playing Eq it had been at least a couple expansions and a couple weapon upgrades since I used my epic weapon on my main. It hardly locked down the slot. I don't think that is a concern.
Iksar said:Kalok said:Did you ever play the original EQ? Do you know the effort that went into obtaining your Epic Weapon? Barest minimum of work is a gross understatement. They didn't provide 'Great power' either.
Crafters customizing gear is *NOT* the same thing as what the Epic Weapons were about.
I'm talking about the topic of this thread, this soulstone/item that grows with the character idea. My comment has nothing to do with EQ or traditional epic weapon quests.
But you kept quoting me. *I* am against the Soul Stone idea. I am FOR Epic Weapons.
Iksar said:Definitely not a fan of this idea. An item slot that is locked down for the entirety of a players leveling? An item that one only has to do the barest minimum of work for great power? Something that pretty much everyone has and participates in? No thank you.
And I very much doubt that if it were an augment that it would be the only one available. The FAQ alludes to there being a lot of customizations for items done by crafting:
"Crafting also goes hand-in-hand with dropped items by allowing players to customize their gear. Players can often bring items to a crafter to customize and tailor them to their specific needs. Since a customized item is meant specifically for your character the item will likely be bound (un-tradable) but this allows the crafter to squeeze out some additional power from a dropped item."
Iksar, can I unpack your statement a little bit here? I want to better understand where you're coming from.
You said...
An item slot that is locked down for the entirety of a players leveling?
I'm confused why you would feel that the concept would result in an item slot that was locked down, for two reasons:
1) When I set up the concept in the original post, I specifically called out the idea that the Soulstone can attach to either a weapon, a shield, or a chest armor piece, and then as it grows, you have to move it to higher level items, and that this also meant you could change the slot you wanted it in - for example, moving it from a sword to a bow, or a bow to an armor piece, etc. I feel like this would promote enough variety that it wouldn't result in, say, every single ranger always having their Soulstone in their ranged weapon... although obviously a lot would depend on the implementation in terms of stats.
2) Think of the Soulstone like a parasite item. it can't exist without a host item to hold it. That host item has to come from somewhere, and the stats of the host item should matter - which, ideally, would mean that people would still go hunt for upgrades for the slot they had their Soulstone in.
So can you elaborate on why you feel this would lock down a slot? Is it just that you think players wouldn't move their soulstones around or that they'd all choose the same slot based on their class?
An item that one only has to do the barest minimum of work for great power
I'm confused as to why you feel this way, so let me turn it around on you. If (for the sake of argument) we assume that everyone gets their Soulstone at level 5, and that they have to transfer it to new items every 5 levels (please note, in the original post I called out that there could/should/would be requirements to transfer the item) - what would be an acceptable level of effort at level 10? at level 25? at level 50?
I feel like you're assuming that this ends up being a "gimme" or a soloable quest experience for players, and that wasn't the intent of the original concept at all. But maybe I'm missing something here?
Something that pretty much everyone has and participates in?
It's true that in this concept, everyone would have it to start. However, as written in the original concept, because the host item for the Soulstone matters - at the end of the day, the people who do the most challenging content still end up with the most advanced/best Soulstones.
But regardless of that - why is it a problem that everyone can participate in this? Is it just that you're assuming that everyone is going to end up with maxed out Soulstone items regardless of whether they raid or not? Or is there something else that I'm not understanding?
I like the idea, It was basically how Vanguard:Saga of Heroes did Epics, only you didn't choose what they gave or level them up. They were class-specific augments that you slotted in to new weapon upgrade you got. That way you could have Epics and not end up in a situation where you're not gonna replace your weapons anymore.
It's a much better way than EQ's "Epic Weapons" Imo, since those will be eventually replaced and that will reduce the feeling of Epics. Epics should be something really cool and class defining, that you keep for the lifetime of your character. That's why I think the way VG did it, was phenomenal.
I disagree deaugmenting your class-specific Epic destroying your old weapon, but instead it should cost a lot of plat or other dear resources.
I really dislike items that gain XP, level up and gain powers, because it immediately shift the MMO to tamagotchi game.
where all your attention in the game goes toward your "pet" item. and you automatically discard all hardly obtained dropped or crafted gear in that slot.
what I do want, is something different for EPIC items:
the stats and the damage of the EPIC item is exactly the same as prior tier weapon (i.e. rare item numerical stats and epic item numerical stats are exactly the same)
but the epic items have one thing that changes the way regular mechanic go. (not necessary combat mechanics!)
for example:
epic "boots of the waterwalker" they will have the same stats of a rare boots but they change mechanic of water, instead of swimming, you walk on water surface as it was solid ground.
epic "medalion of the light god" will have the same stats of rare amulet of the same level, but all your damage will be treated as holy damage, all your sword hits, or fireballs or even poisons will do holy damage.
epic "shield of the protector" will have the same stats of a rare shield, but all your strength and dexterity bonus effects on damage will go to increase defense instead.
epic "rapier of life leeching" will have exactly the same stats as rare rapier but, everytime you should crit, instead of the crit damage you will get self heal for the amount of the damage you should have done.
epic "cloak of the coward" will have the exact stats of a rare cloak, but everytime you get a critical hit from the foe, you get invisible for three seconds and lose some aggro.
epic "battleaxe of the berzerker" will have the exact stats of a rare battleaxe, but as soon as you drop under 50% HP, you get direct damage increase to your hits according to the missing HP under 50% (49% hp is 2% damage increase , 1% of HP is 98% damage increase)
this way, statswise, you can go in rare equipment and still be viable for all the endgame content, but epics will just be much cooler and open up the game for completely different types of gameplay strategies.
I'll do my best this late.
Nephele said:An item slot that is locked down for the entirety of a players leveling?
I'm confused why you would feel that the concept would result in an item slot that was locked down, for two reasons:
1) When I set up the concept in the original post, I specifically called out the idea that the Soulstone can attach to either a weapon, a shield, or a chest armor piece, and then as it grows, you have to move it to higher level items, and that this also meant you could change the slot you wanted it in - for example, moving it from a sword to a bow, or a bow to an armor piece, etc. I feel like this would promote enough variety that it wouldn't result in, say, every single ranger always having their Soulstone in their ranged weapon... although obviously a lot would depend on the implementation in terms of stats.
2) Think of the Soulstone like a parasite item. it can't exist without a host item to hold it. That host item has to come from somewhere, and the stats of the host item should matter - which, ideally, would mean that people would still go hunt for upgrades for the slot they had their Soulstone in.
So can you elaborate on why you feel this would lock down a slot? Is it just that you think players wouldn't move their soulstones around or that they'd all choose the same slot based on their class?
1) I think a major difference is that I am under the assumption this game isn't going to go with the modern MMO gear treadmill of "item levels" and as such how would one decide what constitutes a higher level item? Unless I am wrong and the devs are intending on invalidating most if not all previous gear/drops every 5, 10, or 15 levels. In any case, yes I believe that most people would end up slotting the exact same way. If it truly brings about a powerful item for a specific slot then I'd imagine most melee DPS will be behooved to slot their weapon for consistent top end damage and every other class will be broken down by the community until a clear best slot is chosen as well. Whatever slot this thing is attached to will be the best in slot as you literaly would be getting to craft your dream item by building whatever stats you want including procs, skill bonuses, and cosmetic effects even.
2) Again, "item levels." Also the original post says the soulstone would override the host stats & be more powerful than other items for the level.
Nephele said:An item that one only has to do the barest minimum of work for great power
I'm confused as to why you feel this way, so let me turn it around on you. If (for the sake of argument) we assume that everyone gets their Soulstone at level 5, and that they have to transfer it to new items every 5 levels (please note, in the original post I called out that there could/should/would be requirements to transfer the item) - what would be an acceptable level of effort at level 10? at level 25? at level 50?
I feel like you're assuming that this ends up being a "gimme" or a soloable quest experience for players, and that wasn't the intent of the original concept at all. But maybe I'm missing something here?
Item levels ^. It IS a "gimme" sort of BiS freebie for pretty much anyone. The effort doesn't exist when it is something that levels along with the player and everyone gets early on, it's something that gets powered by someone leveling, which is what they are going to be doing anyway. It's like someone going for a jog every day and getting a medal for it where as getting any kind of traditional epic or BiS type equipment is comparatively like someone participating in & completing a triathlon, WAY different amount of effort. Also no one is going to choose not to do this, it will be mandatory.
It's a freebie because players are already going to be working to upgrade their gear anyway, it's not like it's a great feat or much effort for someone to get a new higher "item level" piece of equipment every now and again.
Nephele said:Something that pretty much everyone has and participates in?
It's true that in this concept, everyone would have it to start. However, as written in the original concept, because the host item for the Soulstone matters - at the end of the day, the people who do the most challenging content still end up with the most advanced/best Soulstones.
But regardless of that - why is it a problem that everyone can participate in this? Is it just that you're assuming that everyone is going to end up with maxed out Soulstone items regardless of whether they raid or not? Or is there something else that I'm not understanding?
So again, it looks to be just a relatively free power boost. If the host item does matter then all that's happeneing is shifting power levels up a bracket? Where on a 1-10 scale non-raiders might end up with a weapon of 8 power and raiders a 10, this system just makes non-raiders have a 10 and raiders break through to a 12?
A system like this changes the entire game as this would be something major to every character.
As an example using Pokemon: Instead of traditional Pokemon where players go out to adventure and find all kinds of cool new ones to catch to build the strongest team they can, this would be like if everyone started the game with a legendary Pokemon that would always be better than anything else of similar level and each player only need fill the other handful of slots. So long as they keep the legendary with them and use them along the way, getting it leveled up is no problem at all.
Anyway, I hope this makes sense. It's been a long day and I'm exhausted.
Kalok said:But you kept quoting me. *I* am against the Soul Stone idea. I am FOR Epic Weapons.
You quoted my first post in this thread...I hadn't quoted you at all.
Aside Nephele's parasite item (he said it himself) and Epic discussion.. is there more to it? more posibilities?
now we have a couple of things I'd guess:
1. Epic 1
- a player (read: class) Epic item in the original EQ context
- revamped for Pantheon use\player excitement
- starts at your class council
2. Soulstone 1
- a player personal development project
- starts with yourself
3. Soulstone 2
- a player (read: class) epic extention\continuation\updater
- starts at your class council
4. Aug
- a long term quest for an item improvement (like BiC in EQ1)
- can have several of those along the way? (in case levels go up up)
- starts somewhere (go out into the wilderness and find out)
Now add more to the fray:
5. Epic 2
- a player (read: RACE) a new Epic item to be gained because you are Dark Myr
- added angle for Pantheon use\player excitement
- starts at your home town council
6. Soulstone 3
- a player (read: RACE) and can't have that epic without one either
- starts at your home town council
7. Legendary
- an item of legendary quality, above the regular items that drops
- special group content drop
8. Mythical
- an item of Lore, only hinted of in ancient texts from before the coming to Terminus
- it did travel with us to Terminus and we didn't even know it
- (or it could be an air\sea\earth dragon item, Tholen, Revenant?)
- starts somewhere (go out into the wilderness and find out)
- (personally I think a quest could have 2 flavors, 1 always the same, the other always new, if devs are up to it)
9. Artifact
- an item of the divine(? Emissary?).
- Created by the forces that drive the Why of Terminus (what ever causes collisions).
- starts sometime (go out and keep your ears open about the active forces that forge this world)
(10. Raid, just to compliment the list)
Putting that in a desirable(difficulty) level order:
Artifact,Epic1-2,Mythical,Aug,Raid,Soulstone1,Soulstone2-3,Legendary
Comments?
Edit: removed undesirble side effect when there was no space between "read:" and class\race
Iksar said:I'll do my best this late.
Thanks sir! I think I understand a little better where you're coming from now.
You bring up a really good point about itemization and how it's implemented, and I'll be honest and say that wasn't something that I or anyone else who was in the initial discussion thought about. The way that most games these days do itemization is that they assign a "level" to each item (even it if's hidden from players) and use that along with a formula to figure out how many stat "points" an item gets. By doing it this way they can insure that the weapon that comes from level 40 content is always better (in general) than the weapon that comes from level 30 content and so on.
Games like WoW and FFXIV (and probably others) have trained us all to expect that "item level" will be both a visual measuring stick for gear, and that there will be a significant difference in the stats as that item level goes up. However, I don't think it *has* to be this way. First of all, I don't think players need to be able to see item level - because let's face it, that turns into a crutch in a lot of cases - and secondly, i don't think that the gradation between items of different levels needs to be that extreme. It's really all about how the devs want the numbers to scale as players level up. The more the numbers change, the tighter your grouping range gets. So having a very "flat" curve in item level can be a good thing in some cases. SWG did this (pre-CU) - a top end blaster was noticeably better than a beginner blaster, but not so completely overpowering that players were penalized for not having a top-end blaster.
That said... if I look at both EQ and Vanguard, which feel like Pantheon's daddy and granddaddy... both games had a fairly clear gradation in stats between lower level items and high level items. In both games, you were looking to upgrade gear every 7-8 levels on average, and if you fell behind on your gear, you *really* felt it in that higher level content. So I feel like Pantheon's items will map to a curve of some kind, even if they're not taking the numbers to an extreme like WoW or FFXIV does.
Anyway, all that is to say I get where you're coming from now. Thanks for taking the time to explain :) It is definitely a factor that should be considered in implementing any system - whether that's traditional epics, something like this, or something else.
I like epic quests, but starting out in EQ as an example I realized I may not get the epic weapon, which brings up some interesting theorycrafting points.
Epics are awesome, some might never get an epic.
I like the soulstone idea, as that involves personal player achiements as I see it. Could the soulstone be better than the epic? both would be awesome but a soulstone may be better in some things, for instance, Warmly faction with the Skar would mean or give a boost way more one thing on one side like stat/AC/resist than anything else that would make the epic look drab and plale by comparison but only in that one thing. Whereas the epic would be good over many things with class specific/tailored boosts.
An epic should be BiS I think, as it is class defining.
Taking a derail- could the soulstone be the thing that is passed on to progeny? if the progeny system is implemented. It would not be passed down with full force but will have some- slowly evolving stats/boosts/resists/pre-existing small faction modifier. So instead of starting at -100 with the skarn, you are at -80 as a progeny with the soulstone, as an example.
However, Epics are good selling points for guilds. It's nice to have a whole group of strangers suddenly get together to do something just for one (insert "Tale of Two cities" quote, here) and guilds often offer as a recruiting point, which is nice. (Personally I don't like being stuffed with epic pieces for free as I would like to try to get them myself I mean that is part of the "epic" training isn't it? . But the big battles, just knowing someone is there to help is nice)
Nephele said:Thanks sir! I think I understand a little better where you're coming from now.
You bring up a really good point about itemization and how it's implemented, and I'll be honest and say that wasn't something that I or anyone else who was in the initial discussion thought about. The way that most games these days do itemization is that they assign a "level" to each item (even it if's hidden from players) and use that along with a formula to figure out how many stat "points" an item gets. By doing it this way they can insure that the weapon that comes from level 40 content is always better (in general) than the weapon that comes from level 30 content and so on.
That said... if I look at both EQ and Vanguard, which feel like Pantheon's daddy and granddaddy... both games had a fairly clear gradation in stats between lower level items and high level items. In both games, you were looking to upgrade gear every 7-8 levels on average, and if you fell behind on your gear, you *really* felt it in that higher level content. So I feel like Pantheon's items will map to a curve of some kind, even if they're not taking the numbers to an extreme like WoW or FFXIV does.
Anyway, all that is to say I get where you're coming from now. Thanks for taking the time to explain :) It is definitely a factor that should be considered in implementing any system - whether that's traditional epics, something like this, or something else.
It's certainly something to consider. Part of the longevity of items in EQ was the lack of item levels and leaving the decisions open to the players. While yes much of the better gear came from the level 30+ content it wasn't too uncommon for some very powerful (in some cases BiS pre-raid or close to it) drops in early EQ to come from the first half of the leveling bracket. There wasn't a major jump in item/gear power every few levels and you could find warriors tanking in bronze armor up into level 40+ since AC generally didn't change too much from one piece of plate to the next. A lot of a players power increase was instead from levels and stats scaling with level.
For example:
Polished Granite Tomahawk was 6/26 with a proc of Berserker Strength (short duration buff that gave +20-25 STR, absorb 30-50 damage, but -11 to -15 AGI) from level 17 named mob.
But a BiS 1h sword in vanilla was 8/24 with a proc that would do 75 damage to the target (1-2 proc a fight average) from a level 47 named mob.
The second is obviously better but the difference wasn't day and night, even with 30 levels between the two drops. For intelligence casters two of their pre-raid BiS items came before level 15 even (provided they put in the effort) in the form of Stein of Moggok and Glowing Black Stone, one being from a quest requiring travel all over the world that could be done by a level 12 and the other a rare drop from a rare named level 13 mob. Having some great drops scattered all throughout the leveling process and no step by step or steep gear/item level growth (initially anyway) it allowed players of all levels to be engaged in the economy and a player could get really excited about drops no matter the level since you never knew when a better item for the slot would come (if at all).
When I look at the soulstone thing I ask myself, how would one put an item level on the above and require the player to upgrade? But I guess it does indeed come down to how they want to itemize the world, whether they go classic EQ style or more modern MMO grind of constant distinct upgrades by level.
I think it would be cool if the soulstone idea was blended with something like this: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5753/spiritual-conversion
I am a fan of any sort of long-term progression that could add an extra flavor of risk vs reward during the adventure.
Reading Nephele’s post brought to mind a few idea’s that blend an epic item and something that grows with you as you level and complete tasks.
What if items themselves had levels? Say when items dropped they were level 1 and had only a small portion of their potential strength. As you use the item it gains power as you do.
After a certain amount of time the item will reach the maximum amount of strength that can be transferred from one player to another. For example you have had a sword for a long time and gotten it to level 10 but when you give it to another player it drops down to level 5. To allow an item to gain exp over transferable amount a certain quest or material consuming process is required to be performed. That effort is lost when the item is transferred.
An epic weapon quest could in fact be the quest to make “Your” weapon Epic which pushes the item into the top tier of growth which is technically infinite growth. If items and mud-flation is controlled properly you could technically pick any level 50 weapon but the play style would change based on which you picked.
Extra credit if the item info page was somehow able to keep track of what was killed with the weapons and gain bane bonuses over time against subtypes.
Trasak
Trasak said:Extra credit if the item info page was somehow able to keep track of what was killed with the weapons and gain bane bonuses over time against subtypes.
Trasak
THAT is a really cool idea.... forgetting games for a moment, the "explanation" given for powerful weapons in literature is that they have history. For example, in the Hobbit, the swords that were found in the troll lair were feared by Orcs because of their history/reputation.
Not sure how to implement this in a way that would keep it balanced in a game (you might eventually end up with all the different bane bonuses on your weapon, unless there was a limiting function of some kind), but it's a cool concept to think about.
Nephele said:THAT is a really cool idea.... forgetting games for a moment, the "explanation" given for powerful weapons in literature is that they have history. For example, in the Hobbit, the swords that were found in the troll lair were feared by Orcs because of their history/reputation.
Not sure how to implement this in a way that would keep it balanced in a game (you might eventually end up with all the different bane bonuses on your weapon, unless there was a limiting function of some kind), but it's a cool concept to think about.
More or less what I was going for. Its also possible that as the item levels you get to change the name and add particle effects and the like so each and every item is fairly unique.
From an implementation standpoint it is most likely impossible. The reason being is data inflation. Rather than having a single string that calls a database registry to load a total amount of stats based on the combine equipment value the system would need to look up each item independently as if each were its own character and pull in stats and combine them. Every item will then have a unique identifier that has dynamic values over time which means data transfer and recording. A really good software engineer may be able to come up with a way to compartmentalize the data storage to the character file and only truly update a few times an hour. But ultimately having every item have its own unique identifier is going to be brutal to code and data manage. All that being said I'm not that type of engineer and what I just said maybe hasn't been relevent for over 15 years.
Trasak
Trasak said:
Extra credit if the item info page was somehow able to keep track of what was killed with the weapons and gain bane bonuses over time against subtypes.
I concur, definatly.. it reminds me of living weapons I read once somewhere (but forgot where)
They would be able to speak too